Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Isatis]

Sonic is the easiest character to fix ever.

Change the angle on Nair so that it hits at a downward angle. Same as MK's Dair (but obviously it won't be as devestating as MKs Dair because it doesn't have the same range and Sonic can't chase you with it since he can't fly). It also can set up a tech chase at high percent, leading into Bair or fsmash.

This sets him up to land K.O.s, and doesn't change the character at all.

In short, if you merely wait against Sonic, Bair and Fsmash can be dodged or blocked on reaction. As long as you are looking for these moves, and take the appropriate response, you won't really get K.O.ed. Just relax your dodging habits, look for those moves, and disregard most other hits.

Uair is pretty good, but easy to dodge out of.

Did you not read what Chis said?

 

[sinistersnakesennin]

I do not regularly browse this thread, but have been using BBrawl since its release, and have a question. I seem to be having an issue searching this thread for my question. And by issue, I mean, hitting "Go" on the "Search This Thread" function and just getting a white "Done." screen.

So I ask. Has anyone pinpointed why Captain Falcon's FS causes the game to freeze?

 

[TP]

Pierce is a genius... but that was clear long before this particular great post.

No homo.

 

[Lokee]

I do not regularly browse this thread, but have been using BBrawl since its release, and have a question. I seem to be having an issue searching this thread for my question. And by issue, I mean, hitting "Go" on the "Search This Thread" function and just getting a white "Done." screen.

So I ask. Has anyone pinpointed why Captain Falcon's FS causes the game to freeze?

I think they said it was the result of one of the modifying engines used. ...I THINK... the throw Modifier. Something about it suddenly freezing you in place screws around with the game. so yeah.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, I have a quick question. I've just recently (like, yesterday) picked up BBrawl Olimar, and I have to ask why in the world he's the only tether character now that has a recovery that puts him into helpless state.

Why?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Balance...

 

[Lokee]

Ok, I have a quick question. I've just recently (like, yesterday) picked up BBrawl Olimar, and I have to ask why in the world he's the only tether character now that has a recovery that puts him into helpless state.

Why?

Well actually its mostly cause it balances his extremely strong stage game (similar to Link)overwise he would be broken, ironically however everyone is actually thinking of nerfing him a bit, he's just that good.

 

[Steeler]

Ok, I have a quick question. I've just recently (like, yesterday) picked up BBrawl Olimar, and I have to ask why in the world he's the only tether character now that has a recovery that puts him into helpless state.

Why?

why is zss the only tether character in vbrawl that has a recovery without helpless state?

 

[Jack Kieser]

@RocketPSIence: That was probably the most unhelpful post you could have made. HOW does that unbalance him? I'm really wondering, because it seems unfair that he's the only tether character that is still retardedly easy to edgehog. Seeing as I know relatively little about the decisions made on the project, a descriptive answer would be nice, so, you know... I understand. Which is the point of asking.

EDIT@Lokee: Yes, but Link still has two recoveries: his UpB and his tether. I just find it strange that he's the only one now who still is absolutely helpless to edgehogs.

@Steeler: Because ALL tethers should have been like that in the first place.

 

[Eldiran]

@RocketPSIence: That was probably the most unhelpful post you could have made. HOW does that unbalance him? I'm really wondering, because it seems unfair that he's the only tether character that is still retardedly easy to edgehog. Seeing as I know relatively little about the decisions made on the project, a descriptive answer would be nice, so, you know... I understand. Which is the point of asking.

As Lokee said, it's to offset his onstage game. He has an absurdly good onstage game, so it makes sense his recovery is super terrible to make up for it.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

He already has some anti-edgehog game with his Down-B, his Aerials and his Purple Pikmin throw so he isn't that horrible off stage. On stage he is a beast. He can put up a wall of Pikmin that are near impenatrable that make some MU's near ****. He easily forces approaches and can punish them quite easily. If he wasn't so edgehoggable, then it would be extremely hard to kill him.

 

[Lokee]

Olimar with a GOOD recovery would be Metaknight 2

 

[Linkshot]

We need a Man-at-Legs.

That will take care of Oli.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Just wondering... is there ANY tether recovery in this game that IS good? It seems to me that every character with a tether has had a weak recovery since day one of Brawl. I don't think Ivy's new recovery is good by any stretch, but you actually have to work offstage to kill her; Olimar, not so much. I get that he's rapesauce on-stage, but... tethers, man. Tethers.

 

[BSP]

about sonic's nair thing, give me one attack that loses to it. It sounds like it could work, but it's just too easy to beat sonic's nair.

 

[Eyada]

@RocketPSIence: That was probably the most unhelpful post you could have made. HOW does that unbalance him? I'm really wondering, because it seems unfair that he's the only tether character that is still retardedly easy to edgehog. Seeing as I know relatively little about the decisions made on the project, a descriptive answer would be nice, so, you know... I understand. Which is the point of asking.

In the interest of honesty, I'll preface this with the disclaimer that I am not one of the BBrawl designers, so my word on the subject has no actual authority whatsoever.

That said:

Part of this project's balance philosophy is "When changes are necessary for balance, change as little as possible in order to meet that goal". In other words, Balanced Brawl seeks to be as similar to regular Brawl as possible while still achieving balance. In regular Brawl, Olimar is easy to gimp; thus, that becomes the "baseline" for Olimar. A character is only changed from the "baseline" if it is absolutely necessary in order to achieve balance; furthermore, any changes to the "baseline" will be as subtle and true-to-the-vBrawl-implementation as possible.

So, any change must adhere to the following rules:

1. The change is unavoidably necessary to achieve balance
2. Preferably, it should be as non-intrusive as possible. Small changes that naturally fit into a character's existing play-style and changes that don't alter a fundamental, core aspect of the character are the goal here.
3. Sometimes, unfortunately, major changes will be needed, but they should be avoided if at all possible. This is especially true when dealing with "core, character-defining" aspects. (Both strengths and weaknesses.)

So, the question this project asks is: "Is Olimar viable, despite having an easily gimpable recovery? (Which is one of his defining characteristics.)"

If the answer is: "Yes, Olimar is viable", then no changes are needed, and none are made.

If the answer is: "No, Olimar is not viable", then a change is needed, and a decision will be made on how to change Olimar.

Edit: (By "viable", I mean: "Does not have any disadvantageous match-ups worse than 40-60.")

The decision of how to change Olimar will be match-up oriented, and it will naturally tend to avoid changing the "fundamental" characteristics of Olimar unless it becomes apparent that doing so is unavoidably necessary.

Making Olimar's recovery better falls under the "changes to fundamental, character-defining characteristics" category because Olimar having a bad recovery is a fundamentally character defining weakness; as such, it will only be changed if it is actually truly necessary to make Olimar viable.

Since such a change is not necessary to make Olimar viable, it isn't needed, and it won't happen.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

about sonic's nair thing, give me one attack that loses to it. It sounds like it could work, but it's just too easy to beat sonic's nair.

Yes, but you would also be looking out for a b-air when he's in the air

 

[A2ZOMG]

Better question Jack Kieser, why is Olimar the only tether character with a GOOD grab?

I mean not only his his grab good, but it's INSANELY BROKEN.

 

[JOE!]

hmn...

spin-dash->nair->spring combo, anyone?

 

[Pierce7d]

It's very obvious to me. Olimar has the best mobility to fall-speed ratio of all tether characters (except maybe Lucas). It has little lag, is a transcendent (frame 1?) anti-air attack, which would be amazing if it could be used repeatedly in the air.

Additionally, Olimar with proper conservation of his jump, good DI, proper use of whistle, and a good Uair can usually make it back to the stage.

Olimar's grab isn't insanely broken, since it comes out on like frame 11, so some characters can just aerial into jab on him and win, and his OOS options get wrecked otherwise besides Usmash. He also has no priority on like, anything, lmao.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas may be, but if you include Magnet Pull, then Lucas is definitely the best mobility to fall-speed ratio. Just saying.

But anyway, I think we've proven the point.

 

[ぱみゅ]

olimar is very polarized.

He have both very good and very bad Matchups, so find a way to balance them should be complicated, considering that his grab game is his only weapon against MK and other High tiers, but it gives him pretty easy MUs against most non-proyectile guys...

 

[BSP]

hmn...

spin-dash->nair->spring combo, anyone?

A lot of things cancel the spring as well.

I would give it try, but nair buff doesnt sound like the right direction..might just be me.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

well it increases his options in the air so the opponet would have to prepare for more situations, also, it makes a crap move into a viable move (one of the BBrawl objectives)

 

[Ehic]

Strengths of Olimar
-Flexible projectile
-Insane damage racking (especially white pikmin)
-KOs very early with purple and blue pikmin
-All 3 smashes are some of the best in the game with respect of power to speed ratio
-Whistle Armor
-Amazing grab game that can do alot of damage, set up combos, or kill
-Small size makes hard to hit
-Giant hitboxes with yellow pikmin
-Good histun with yellow and red pikmin

Weaknesses of Olimar
-Lightweight (compromised by Whistle armor)
-Tether recovery/easily gimped

If Olimar tethers the ledge while the opponent has no invicinibilty frames they most likely be stage spiked. Overall though as long as Olimar keeps his distance which is easy due to his wall Pikmin, and deosn't take risks trying to gimp others, he has few worries. Also by the time most enemies get Olimar they will have a good amount of damage tacked on.

I forget anything, or gave wrong information please correct me

 

[CarVac]

@Altrox (way back on page 186)
Ness is NOT terribly easy to gimp except for by a few characters (ness, lucas, mk, gaw, mario). For everyone else, it's a very risky proposition, and ONLY if they get to Ness before he PKT2s.

Olimar I think does not need the recovery buff. It would most likely unbalance matchups.

 

[JOE!]

yoshi can rather easily gimp ness just by jumping thru PK thunder...

but anywho, @mariobrouser:

yes, alot of things beat spring, but by going thru spindash->nair, it is nigh gaurenteed Nair will hit.

after Nair hits (presumably) they are knocked down with some hitstun.

Spring is then very quick and -should- hit

 

[CarVac]

A good ness will PKT from a safe place, and only when necessary. His DJ has surprising reach, especially when protected with fair, uair, and dair, and his snap distance is outstanding. Recovering below the ledge, my biggest concern is not that PKT will be eaten, but that I'll hit someone while PKT2ing, thereby shortening my range. (It's worst when I hit them into the stage, and they tech) Level with the ledge, I stay far away so that it's hard to reach me by the time I'm ready to PKT. If I do see you jumping at me, I'll aerial, or I'll tailwhip you to PKT2 kill (best feeling ever). I only have problems recovering when using controllers with crappy analog sticks.

Kinda funny, though, that I'm arguing against improved recoveries for two of my characters, one of which definitely has a bad recovery (Olimar), and the other of which has what is generally considered to be a bad recovery.

 

[Pierce7d]

Most of you seem to misunderstand Olimar. So much stuff is safe on block against him, because of the speed of his grab. He also has little priority, and his projectile does little in the way of stopping an approach, unless he has a purple.

Characters Olimar seems to beat include those without a reliable projectile AND no aerial to approach with on shield. BTW, Olimar's shield is horrible, he's easy to stab.

Marth still beats Olimar because we can aerial his shield. He has NO types of priority. His roll is also pitiful.

This doesn't make him a bad character, because he's small, and can run away. He also does still cripple a lot of characters like Ike, DK, and Ganon.

 

[K.Mac]

I'm gonna have to stray away from the topic of Olimar here, but.

As I'm a PAL user, what exactly do I need to do to get BBrawl to load?

I just tried (finally) to test it to see if it works and alas it does not. :/ I'm pretty sure I set it up correctly on the SD card, so unless there's a specific way to get the PAL version to run it then I'm doing something very wrong.

:/ I probably just downloaded the wrong files or something. I just downloaded the Balanced brawl.zip file and placed the contents on SD (boot.elf and stuff in root, etc, etc) so maybe there are different files for PAL.

Noob halp plox.

edit

It was a noob mistake. I realised eventually that the US version uses a different gct file so I downloaded the PAL one, stuck it in and voila.

Nice changes. and LOL and MK's gimped nado.

btw: for the PAL version I noticed you're struggling to get Hanenbow to be replaced with Wifi Training Room. Are you actually having trouble? Could you just not use the code in Brawl+ that replaced New Pork City with WTR and change the level code to Hanenbow instead of new pork?

edit again

Doesn't it say on the first page that Yoshi's Fair is supposed to ground opponents? "Forward aerial sweetspot grounding element" I believed that meant if it sweetspotted it stuck them in the ground (Like DK's downB) but it doesn't do that.

Mistake on my half or an actual error? Explanation appreciated. :]

 

[Chis]

The thing is that we don't want to homogenize the cast. It would be all too easy to make Sonic better at killing, Ganondorf faster, Pokemon Trainer individual, and Link better recovering.

Making Sonic being able to kill will not detract anything from his general play style. Basically Sonic will still feel like Sonic.

The problem is that the difference between the characters takes a big hit with that method. Sonic is about raw mobility at the expense of range and kill power (not sure where you're getting that his approach is bad; with his mobility, Sonic can bait like a pro or run-up grab/dash attack with no risk if the opponent doesn't bite). He's that fly zipping all over the place that is so fast just in terms of raw mobility that he's hard to swat (seriously, even in Sonic vs Captain Falcon, Sonic's mobility advantage is really big). Of course he ran into some problems, mostly because of the basic fact that he was a fly fighting some lions who didn't mind his sting enough for his slippery nature to translate to wins. However, those damage buffs, especially dash attack which is seriously a really good move (for the unaware, Sonic's dash attack, like Squirtle's, goes right through shields so it's pretty much always safe on block), suddenly make Sonic sting a lot more. Some of the moves we buffed that largely got overlooked have more use in Sonic's hardest matchups (the characters who put walls of priority in front of them).

You are over estimating Sonics mobility. First off, Sonics approach is bad. He has no reliable approach and depends on baiting and punishing tactics which are totally player dependent. Often when the player learns the match up, there's only so much that you can do. Sonic does have a lot of options, but most of them suck. Sonics cannot approach via aerials since they're either to slow or haven't got enough range. Many of Sonics approaches leave him committed to it, meaning he’s leaving himself to get punished if he fails. These either have little range or are a tad too slow. Hence why certain characters can shut him down (Olimar, Marth, Peach, Metaknight)

I hardily see Usmash and Dair used offensively. These damage buffs won’t help in Sonics hardest match ups. Making one of Sonics most disjointed attacks would be of great help in match ups with characters with swords. Also making it more viable would help Sonic vs characters who limit Sonics killing opportunities with their superior aerial game (See MK, Marth, Peach and Wario).

I'm saying I'm not sure the ultimate solution is to just make Sonic better at killing; it's not the only avenue here. Statements like "While he's doing this, he has to avoid being damaged, which is hard due to his opponents great range, and sonic's lack of priority" sound like indicators of other avenues to consider in balancing Sonic. Here's what I'm thinking here to really refine this issue. For one, just how bad are his worst matchups in Balanced Brawl, and just how do those matchups tend to go? For two, what are Sonic's best matchups in Balanced Brawl, and just how do those matchups tend to go? After all, while I want to make sure Sonic is on an level playing field with everyone else, I don't want to go the other way and screw over the characters Sonic counters...

Sonics 'counters' are usually characters which can take full advantage of Sonics crappy range and approaches and shuts down a lot of his options with a superior ground or air game (Wario, Peach, G&W, Metaknight, Marth, Olimar). You are not giving Sonic something he can heavy exploit such as increased range, but you are giving him a fairer chance.

Change the angle on Nair so that it hits at a downward angle. Same as MK's Dair (but obviously it won't be as devestating as MKs Dair because it doesn't have the same range and Sonic can't chase you with it since he can't fly). It also can set up a tech chase at high percent, leading into Bair or fsmash.

This sets him up to land K.O.s, and doesn't change the character at all.

That would not help. Nair has far too much landing lag and duration to be used OoS further limiting its use. It also has sucky range and there's nothing stopping the player teching the stage as they hit it.

In short, if you merely wait against Sonic, Bair and Fsmash can be dodged or blocked on reaction. As long as you are looking for these moves, and take the appropriate response, you won't really get K.O.ed. Just relax your dodging habits, look for those moves, and disregard most other hits.

Uair is pretty good, but easy to dodge out of.

This

 

[TP]

I know that Thinkaman is somewhat unhappy with Olimar. The problem is that Olimar is really pushing the limits of all matchups being between 40:60 and 60:40. He might be out of that range when he gets to fight Falcon or Ganon, and he has matchups where he might be hard countered. I don't know what to do, personally. Anyone know how to make his matchups less polarizing?

 

[JOE!]

@chis:

i thenk he intended it for off-stage to use with the spring gimp

 

[darksamus77]

Just wondering... is there ANY tether recovery in this game that IS good? It seems to me that every character with a tether has had a weak recovery since day one of Brawl. I don't think Ivy's new recovery is good by any stretch, but you actually have to work offstage to kill her; Olimar, not so much. I get that he's rapesauce on-stage, but... tethers, man. Tethers.

ZSS's tether recovery has INCREDIBLE range. I've hit the ledge with that plasma whip when I was in a magnifying glass under the stage.

 

[Mit]

Been out for a while fidgeting with SSE levels.

On Sonic:

I'm also against speeding up any of his moves. Some viable changes that I think would help (and I am not suggesting ALL of these changes be made, just one, maybe two):

Bthrow kills at lower percent
or Bthrow goes at a lower angle
Dsmash does more damage/knockback to become a kill option with fsmash and bair.
Or dsmash hits with a lower angle

The earlier kill on bthrow (nothing drastic, a high percentage kill) would allow for a more reliable kill when your opponent starts getting to too high of a damage, if you've been unable to kill with fsmash or bair to that point.

Or, a lower angle on bthrow could allow for more constant offstage pressure. Dog on spring all you want, if you get your opponent off the stage multiple times per stock, there's a high chance you'll figure out how to hit your opponent with it (the key will end up being mindgames with it. Don't do stuff like jump out and drop the spring in their path--they're just going to airdodge or cancel the spring with an attack. Jump out low, try and bait an airdodge/attack, drop the spring when the dodge/attack ends, recover to safety. Stuff like that).

A stronger dsmash would just give Sonic another option. Dsmash's range isn't too terrible, and it's not terribly difficult to hit with either, since it can also punish spotdodges, and can also punish rolls due to it hitting behind him as well. Not to mention the charging animation for it looks just like spin dash, which could throw your opponent off sometimes.

Or, a lower angle on dsmash, with no damage increase. It would still kill a little earlier, but could also allow for more setups like what I mentioned above.


Respones to some other suggestions: As mentioned before, damage increase to fsmash does nothing because it's still just as hard to hit with. Same with bair. I don't support timing changes because I don't find it necessary, and think Sonic would be a bit too buffed if his kill moves came out faster. He can rack damage like a pro, and then can kill reliably? The more that metagame advanced, the better and better we'd see Sonic get.

As far as Sonic not having good approaches, I haven't heard any suggestion that would really help with that, even if kill moves were sped up. It's just a part of the character you have to deal with. I deal with the same thing with Falcon, except it's not nearly as easy for me to get quick punishes in. If you can't get inside, just be annoying and punish little things with dash attacks or dash grabs for minimal damage. Sonic does more damage in BBrawl, and just chipping away at your opponent (while remaining defensive and staying safe yourself), can get your opponent to high percentages in relatively short amounts of time.


Other stuff:

Ness's recovery is fine, as any experienced Ness main will tell you. Olimar's is also fine, and if you don't think so you need to get better with Olimar.


It can be Falcon timez nao plz?

 

[da K.I.D.]

you know what a fantastic sonic addition would be (i swear im not joking)
make all 3 of the down smash hits, hit at full power. so that way when an opponent airdodges or spotdodges into it at 150. in stead of just getting hit half way across the stage by a cruddy 5% weak hit, theyll die. its still requires the opponent to mess up. but it give sonic another actually viable kill option. that does actually have semi setups into it, so it doesnt change sonics game play at all

 

[ShermantheTank]

Just a thought, would giving the spring a +1 or 2 to damage help? This should give it enough knockback to start killing at much lower percentages with it.

 

[Chis]

On Sonic:

I'm also against speeding up any of his moves. Some viable changes that I think would help (and I am not suggesting ALL of these changes be made, just one, maybe two):

Bthrow kills at lower percent
or Bthrow goes at a lower angle
Dsmash does more damage/knockback to become a kill option with fsmash and bair.
Or dsmash hits with a lower angle

Bthrow sucks. Dsmash is already a killing option which is like 1 frame faster then Fsmash iirc, which is still slow. Dsmash also less disjointed then Fsmash.

The earlier kill on bthrow (nothing drastic, a high percentage kill)

...so it's still unreliable and garbs? Anyways, upthrow would suit that role better imo.

would allow for a more reliable kill when your opponent starts getting to too high of a damage, if you've been unable to kill with fsmash or bair to that point.

So since Bthrow throws people behind Sonic, you need to be on the edge of the stage, facing to the stage, have a character grabbed, at a high percentage. That doesn't sound very reliable.

A stronger dsmash would just give Sonic another option. Dsmash's range isn't too terrible, and it's not terribly difficult to hit with either, since it can also punish spotdodges, and can also punish rolls due to it hitting behind him as well.

Stronger =/= reliable. If it's still slow, how does buffing its power make it any easier to hit with? Dsmash hits people after the initial hitbox has passed with a weaker hit box, hence why it's good against spot dodges. So that won’t help either.

Not to mention the charging animation for it looks just like spin dash, which could throw your opponent off sometimes.

That's player dependent.

Or, a lower angle on dsmash, with no damage increase. It would still kill a little earlier, but could also allow for more setups like what I mentioned above.

Nope. It's neither stronger or faster so it's neither more rewarding to it with nor easier. This will not help in any of his tough match ups either (maybe Olimar). So this is a gimick.

Respones to some other suggestions: As mentioned before, damage increase to fsmash does nothing because it's still just as hard to hit with. Same with bair. I don't support timing changes because I don't find it necessary, and think Sonic would be a bit too buffed if his kill moves came out faster. He can rack damage like a pro, and then can kill reliably? The more that metagame advanced, the better and better we'd see Sonic get.

No offence, but don't you think the people suggesting this would know more about Sonics metagame then you, and have a more suitable basis to so whether or not he would be 'broken' or not and whether or not it’s necessary? According to this project, it's meant to make characters more variable without changing the way they play. Will making Sonics Fsmash faster change his bait and punishing tactics, approaches and such? I doubt it

As far as Sonic not having good approaches, I haven't heard any suggestion that would really help with that, even if kill moves were sped up. It's just a part of the character you have to deal with. I deal with the same thing with Falcon, except it's not nearly as easy for me to get quick punishes in. If you can't get inside, just be annoying and punish little things with dash attacks or dash grabs for minimal damage. Sonic does more damage in BBrawl, and just chipping away at your opponent (while remaining defensive and staying safe yourself), can get your opponent to high percentages in relatively short amounts of time.

Changing how well Sonic can kill is much less drastic and easier then messing with his approaches. Sonic will still play the same and will be more viable. I thought the goal of this project was to make all characters somewhat viable, as good as diddy? Not to stick with Sakurai's flaws on the basis 'You main the character and must stick with their suckyness.' BBrawl Sonic sucks too lol.

 

[Mit]

Just a thought, would giving the spring a +1 or 2 to damage help? This should give it enough knockback to start killing at much lower percentages with it.

Usually if it's gonna kill, it's gonna kill. 2 or 3 damage probably wouldn't change how much it's canceled by certain characters' attacks either.

Also, I'm quoting my post again so it gets on this page. I hate getting the last post of a page...

Been out for a while fidgeting with SSE levels.

On Sonic:

I'm also against speeding up any of his moves. Some viable changes that I think would help (and I am not suggesting ALL of these changes be made, just one, maybe two):

Bthrow kills at lower percent
or Bthrow goes at a lower angle
Dsmash does more damage/knockback to become a kill option with fsmash and bair.
Or dsmash hits with a lower angle

The earlier kill on bthrow (nothing drastic, a high percentage kill) would allow for a more reliable kill when your opponent starts getting to too high of a damage, if you've been unable to kill with fsmash or bair to that point.

Or, a lower angle on bthrow could allow for more constant offstage pressure. Dog on spring all you want, if you get your opponent off the stage multiple times per stock, there's a high chance you'll figure out how to hit your opponent with it (the key will end up being mindgames with it. Don't do stuff like jump out and drop the spring in their path--they're just going to airdodge or cancel the spring with an attack. Jump out low, try and bait an airdodge/attack, drop the spring when the dodge/attack ends, recover to safety. Stuff like that).

A stronger dsmash would just give Sonic another option. Dsmash's range isn't too terrible, and it's not terribly difficult to hit with either, since it can also punish spotdodges, and can also punish rolls due to it hitting behind him as well. Not to mention the charging animation for it looks just like spin dash, which could throw your opponent off sometimes.

Or, a lower angle on dsmash, with no damage increase. It would still kill a little earlier, but could also allow for more setups like what I mentioned above.


Respones to some other suggestions: As mentioned before, damage increase to fsmash does nothing because it's still just as hard to hit with. Same with bair. I don't support timing changes because I don't find it necessary, and think Sonic would be a bit too buffed if his kill moves came out faster. He can rack damage like a pro, and then can kill reliably? The more that metagame advanced, the better and better we'd see Sonic get.

As far as Sonic not having good approaches, I haven't heard any suggestion that would really help with that, even if kill moves were sped up. It's just a part of the character you have to deal with. I deal with the same thing with Falcon, except it's not nearly as easy for me to get quick punishes in. If you can't get inside, just be annoying and punish little things with dash attacks or dash grabs for minimal damage. Sonic does more damage in BBrawl, and just chipping away at your opponent (while remaining defensive and staying safe yourself), can get your opponent to high percentages in relatively short amounts of time.


Other stuff:

Ness's recovery is fine, as any experienced Ness main will tell you. Olimar's is also fine, and if you don't think so you need to get better with Olimar.


It can be Falcon timez nao plz?

 

[Eldiran]

Nope. It's neither stronger or faster so it's neither more rewarding to it with nor easier. This will not help in any of his tough match ups either (maybe Olimar). So this is a gimick.

Just fyi, a lower angle is basically the same as being stronger in most cases. Try out Falcon's up tilt, for example.