Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Linkshot]

More damage = More knockback, even if you don't change the knockback on it at all.

+3 makes a big difference to it, apparently.

 

[The_Altrox]

They did they intentionally, since Hanabrow is just a bad stage for competitive 1vs1

NO, you don't get it. I selected Hanebrow and I got Hanebrow. Not wifi room...

 

[Lokee]

NO, you don't get it. I selected Hanebrow and I got Hanebrow. Not wifi room...

Did you use a custom codeset? If yes then just put these in and I think your good.

Hanenbow is WiFi Training Room

C26DCEE0 00000003
A37A0022 2C1B0025
40820008 3B600037
60000000 00000000

WiFi Training Room Music

0410FE04 386327C3

 

[The Milk Monster]

Pound is also ridiculously easy to bait, and has a good amount of ending lag. Using it as a primary offensive move in a serious match is simply unheard of. You'll use it about as much as Samus' up-b.

lol.

Just lol..

I see Samus's using her Up B quite frequently actually, along with myself.

 

[The_Altrox]

Did you use a custom codeset? If yes then just put these in and I think your good.

Hanenbow is WiFi Training Room

C26DCEE0 00000003
A37A0022 2C1B0025
40820008 3B600037
60000000 00000000

WiFi Training Room Music

0410FE04 386327C3

No I never touched the codes. and I don't know how to mess with game data. and even if I did, I wouldn't know where to place that info

 

[Ehic]

With sonic's insane damage capacity giving him a reliable easy to hit with kill move would be over powered. I like the idea of high percent killing throw or improve his ability to get the opponent off stage.

Jigglypuffs pound is defiantely an amazing move. It has insane priority, has a long lasting hitbox, and good range for not being disjointed. Unless you the ground version which sucks on range. Also its ability to easily be mixed in with any of jigglypuffs other great aerials.

 

[Lokee]

Ok ok, Im going to try to walk you through it manually step by step (this will be the Smashstack method)

1)Go to the download link at the First Page: Under BalancedBrawl it says download link click it. Now it takes you to Mediafire.

2)Download the first file titled: Balanced Brawl.zip and place it on your desktop.

3) Extract it on you desktop and a folder that says Balanced Brawl appears. When you open the folder you should see 4 files:
"Boot.elf"
"gameconfig" (a text document)
A folder named "codes" and
a folder named "private"

4) Now take "Boot.elf" and "gameconfig" and just put them at the root of you SD card.

5) Ok here's where it can get iffy.
If you have an empty SD card or if it does not have the folders "private" and codes" just put both folders at the root of the SD and then skip to step 7.

6) Now If you already have the folders "private" and "codes" on the root of your SD do the following:
a) Take the file titled "RSBE01.gct" and put it into the "codes" folder.
b)Then make sure your "private" folder is set up with this hierarchy: private\wii\app\RSBE\st
c) Now on your desktop go to the same directory that you have in you SDcard and take the file titled "st_080805_0933" bin file and then place it in the same directory except this time on your SD card. Now all the important files are on the SD.

7) Insert the Sd card and Brawl game into Wii

8) When Brawl loads up and gets to the main menu immediately go to the stage builder. When you do you should see strange text and a green screen appear briefly automatically. Then Gecko loads up.

8) in Gecko go to the first option and then it will load the codes and the game. Then Brawl will load up as normal but with the modifications. Now take out the SD card (or your game will freeze cause of the bin file in the stagebuilder.)

9) Now every time you want to play Balanced Brawl just repeat steps 7-8 and enjoy

If that doesnt work then I HAVE NO IDEA what is going on.

 

[Linkshot]

A simple tacking +3 to fSmash makes it so that you can use it as a damaging punisher at the cost of staling it later.

What we really need is info on why the matchups suck.

How do they shut down Sonic? If every single one of them is "They simply kill him at a faster rate." then a kill move might be needed. If it's a gameplay flaw, you give him a niche move that trumps gameplay but can be used sparingly.

 

[The_Altrox]

Ok ok, Im going to try to walk you through it manually step by step (this will be the Smashstack method)

1)Go to the download link at the First Page: Under BalancedBrawl it says download link click it. Now it takes you to Mediafire.

2)Download the first file titled: Balanced Brawl.zip and place it on your desktop.

3) Extract it on you desktop and a folder that says Balanced Brawl appears. When you open the folder you should see 4 files:
"Boot.elf"
"gameconfig" (a text document)
A folder named "codes" and
a folder named "private"

4) Now take "Boot.elf" and "gameconfig" and just put them at the root of you SD card.

5) Ok here's where it can get iffy.
If you have an empty SD card or if it does not have the folders "private" and codes" just put both folders at the root of the SD and then skip to step 7.

6) Now If you already have the folders "private" and "codes" on the root of your SD do the following:
a) Take the file titled "RSBE01.gct" and put it into the "codes" folder.
b)Then make sure your "private" folder is set up with this hierarchy: private\wii\app\RSBE\st
c) Now on your desktop go to the same directory that you have in you SDcard and take the file titled "st_080805_0933" bin file and then place it in the same directory except this time on your SD card. Now all the important files are on the SD.

7) Insert the Sd card and Brawl game into Wii

8) When Brawl loads up and gets to the main menu immediately go to the stage builder. When you do you should see strange text and a green screen appear briefly automatically. Then Gecko loads up.

8) in Gecko go to the first option and then it will load the codes and the game. Then Brawl will load up as normal but with the modifications. Now take out the SD card (or your game will freeze cause of the bin file in the stagebuilder.)

9) Now every time you want to play Balanced Brawl just repeat steps 7-8 and enjoy

If that doesnt work then I HAVE NO IDEA what is going on.

I did all that. I just don't know how to add codes like the wifi room

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

These buffs are nice and everything but don't deal with Sonics real problems like range, approaching and killing. Why not just simply make his Fsmash and Dsmash faster and stronger...?

The thing is that we don't want to homogenize the cast. It would be all too easy to make Sonic better at killing, Ganondorf faster, Pokemon Trainer individual, and Link better recovering. The problem is that the difference between the characters takes a big hit with that method. Sonic is about raw mobility at the expense of range and kill power (not sure where you're getting that his approach is bad; with his mobility, Sonic can bait like a pro or run-up grab/dash attack with no risk if the opponent doesn't bite). He's that fly zipping all over the place that is so fast just in terms of raw mobility that he's hard to swat (seriously, even in Sonic vs Captain Falcon, Sonic's mobility advantage is really big). Of course he ran into some problems, mostly because of the basic fact that he was a fly fighting some lions who didn't mind his sting enough for his slippery nature to translate to wins. However, those damage buffs, especially dash attack which is seriously a really good move (for the unaware, Sonic's dash attack, like Squirtle's, goes right through shields so it's pretty much always safe on block), suddenly make Sonic sting a lot more. Some of the moves we buffed that largely got overlooked have more use in Sonic's hardest matchups (the characters who put walls of priority in front of them). For instance, Sonic's down tilt is usually just plain ignored, but if Sonic for whatever reason needs to stop moving for a second and go for a good range poke, it is actually really good at that with the new hitbox values we gave it (the only reason it wasn't good in standard Brawl for this purpose was because it wasn't exactly great on hit). I know Thinkaman did some location testing and found Sonic's dtilt way more effective against Marth than anyone expected it to be. We have fairly limited data on the way it ultimately panned out for Sonic in the end, but I do have confidence that our approach on him had the potential to produce a balanced character and the advantage of making sure Sonic was still Sonic and not Fox 2.

My biggest qualm with this project is your ambition to put every character on the same level as Diddy Kong. Diddy Kong is an excellent character who many believe to deserve a much higher spot in the tier list, and I don't think pointless buffs like giving Fox's illusion a 1% increase will make them a character of the same calibur. Sure, chaingrabs are gone which is nice, but it just doesn't seem like enough. For example, you claim that Jigglypuff is now viable with its changes, but a buffed Pound isn't enough to make it win in a metagame wrought with Marths and G&W's. How could you let this happen with a project where the focus is balanced mathcups? Furthermore, some buffs simply will not make some characters move down. For example, you can nerf Snake's tilts as much as you want, but he will always have more options than most characters due to his extremely versatile moveset.

Most characters are more flexible at core than you give them credit for, and please don't worry so much about that old Diddy Kong comment (his value in Balanced Brawl is not completely static anyway). The main point was to say that we are balancing toward the near-top but not the absolute-top.

The thing with Fox is that he's not really "bad" in standard Brawl in the sense that he has a pretty effective moveset and a coherent playstyle. In most matchups, Fox is really not bad; if we just take him at total face value, he may even be high tier (remember those Japanese tier lists that put Fox pretty high up?). The reason he's ultimately low tier in standard Brawl is because of how abusable he is. Pikachu and Sheik in particular just wreck him with stupid stuff, and Zero Suit Samus gets some pretty silly stuff out of dsmash as well. We made those issues pretty much go away for Fox; that's his real buff. Now we're seeing how he pans out in a game where he's not shot in the foot by a few horrible matchups before he even gets started. Sadly, Fox has not been used very much so we have fairly limited data on him...

Jigglypuff is not nearly as bad as people make her out to be; it's not like Mr. Game & Watch can use turtle over and over again and Jigglypuff has no choice but to jump into it. Her game is focused around a more narrow set of moves than all the other characters which makes her somewhat tricky, but given that Thinkaman mains Jigglypuff in standard Brawl, we have expertise about her on our side.

I think you are simply mistaken in saying Snake's moveset is fundamentally more versatile than the average character's. If anything, Snake is a prime example of a character who succeeds primarily on the basis of just being really rewarding (high damage, high kill power). I think if you give the other characters a fair shot, you'll discover they aren't exactly simple either; there are no one trick ponies in Bbrawl.

This might have already been asked by why didnt u get rid of stamina for PT

Pokemon Trainer is unique among characters in being at his very core designed around a constant switching of "characters", and we're all too aware that in standard Brawl "Pokemon Trainer with no stamina or forced switching" is just code for "Squirtle". In the spirit of maintaining what is unique and interesting about this character, we decided to focus on improving Pokemon Trainer within his team dynamic. Each individual buff on every Pokemon was informed by their role on the team, and the switch times were sped up to address any issues Pokemon Trainer may have with getting stuck with no stamina on one form. I definitely very strongly feel that Pokemon Trainer no longer has weak links holding the whole team back; playtesting has suggested he's actually incredibly effective and can really leverage his amazing diversity when his entire team is performing up to standard (instead of him having to worry about the opponent just waiting for Ivysaur).

Got it to work... but whenever I select Hanebrow, I get... Hanebrow. Wifi Training room?

Don't you use PAL? Not all codes are avaialble on PAL, just stage stuff missing. I'm sorry; we are limited by what codes exist. Anyway, to iterate from the starting post, here's the stuff that you are going to be missing...

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 has a higher ceiling (NTSC-U only)
Spear Pillar has a higher bottom blast zone and individually selectable forms (NTSC-U only)
WiFi Training Room replaces Hanenbow in versus mode (NTSC-U only)
Temple has closer top and bottom blast zones (NTSC-U only)
Corneria has further top, left, and right blast zones (NTSC-U only)

Everything else should be in-tact (just FYI, Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 also has a higher ceiling in the NTSC version even though we don't pretend like it's suddenly a fair stage; we should probably clean up that documentation a little to clarify on that point).

 

[Linkshot]

*nodnods*

I'd like to be able to keep track of when it gets updated..

Also looking forward to the next release of bBrawl!

I feel bad for not being able to get matchup experience ._.

 

[BSP]

A simple tacking +3 to fSmash makes it so that you can use it as a damaging punisher at the cost of staling it later.

What we really need is info on why the matchups suck.

How do they shut down Sonic? If every single one of them is "They simply kill him at a faster rate." then a kill move might be needed. If it's a gameplay flaw, you give him a niche move that trumps gameplay but can be used sparingly.

If 3+% will really make a difference, I think that would help a lot. From my experience, sonic's problems are in killing, and dealing with range/disjointedness(I think sonic's approach is pretty good, with his sheer speed). His two worst matchups: Marth and g and w. They both have very disjointed attacks, making it very hard for sonic to get in their defenses. Sonic is ok at racking damage against them when he does find an opening though, since his throws are pretty strong and his spindash combos usually do good damage. Of course, killing is where the problem is, because even his fresh smashes do not do much damage or knockback. This boils down to sonic having to poke at them repeatedly (the minor buffs do make this faster) and attempt to land one of his k.o. moves, each one being slow in start up and not having too much knockback. While he's doing this, he has to avoid being damaged, which is hard due to his opponents great range, and sonic's lack of priority. They also kill earlier than him especially g and w).

To fix this, I think the damage buff to fmsash would help, if damage increases knockback that is. A k.o.-ing throw would not be a bad option either, since sonic can land grabs easier than landing smashes. I would also support the faster pummel as well, because like i said, grabbing is one of sonic's most viable options when he eventually finds an opening. Basically, his damage racking is ok as it is now, he just needs some help killing and getting past range.

Question: Would increasing spindash's damage increase its priority? That's another problem i find, his spindashes are too easily stopped.

 

[Steeler]

i always thought forced switching and stamina was redundant and unnecessary

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Priority is a phantom that I think I'd do best explaining.

When two hitboxes collide, here is what happens.

1. If either hitbox is transcendent (like most of Meta Knight's moves, Star Fox character lasers, Ness sparkles, etc.), they do not interact and pass through each other.
2. If either hitbox is 10% or more stronger than the other one, the weaker one is simply destroyed and the stronger one continues. This check is done after factoring in stale moves and any other damage altering factors.
3. If they are within 10% damage of each other, they are both destroyed.

Also, if you are on the ground when one of your non-projectile hitboxes is destroyed, you will do a clash animation and terminate the execution of whatever move you were doing as you return to a neutral position.

Remember, you are damaged by a hitbox when it overlaps with one of your hurtboxes. Your hurtboxes shift depending on what animation your character is currently in. Certain animations cause your hurtboxes to temporarily be in a state of super armor or invincibility which can obviously change the final outcome of interactions. When two moves meet, the "goal" of each user is to have his hitboxes get past the other person's hitboxes to reach the opponent's hurtboxes (preferably at a time the opponent is not in a state of super armor or, worse, invincibility).

"Priority" is the overall way an attack is effective at hitting through another attack factoring all of this in. Damage is a part of the equation; if the hitboxes generated by the attack do 10% or more damage, there will be circumstances in which they are able to destroy other hitboxes with more damage being better. Disjointedness is another big deal. Disjointedness is the measure of how far out your hitboxes are generated relative to your hurtbox; Marth is an obvious example of good disjointedness because he can hit out as far as the tip of his sword, but you have to hit his arm to hurt Marth. It's not just characters with weapons that utilize the principles of disjointedness; all attacks are disjointed to some extent, and the characters with "bad priority" most often have their hitboxes generated just barely beyond their hurtboxes (Captain Falcon is the most obvious example of this). In the case of some aerial attacks, simply rapidly generating hitboxes can be a factor; Meta Knight's Mach Tornado (one of his few non-transcendent moves) has "high priority" just because it makes hitboxes so fast that it tends to keep mutually destroying all other hitboxes that would challenge it, even other multi-hit moves like Mr. Game & Watch's turtle. Do note that a lot of moves that don't typically hit several times do generate a bunch of hitboxes; being hit by a hitbox a move generates frequently causes the victim to become immune to many of the move's other hitboxes, and if hit by multiple hitboxes at once, frequently one has priority over the other and is the only one that "counts" (for instance, consider how ridiculous it would be if Marth spaced correctly and were able to hit with both a tipper and non-tipper hit on his moves at the same time, doing the combined damage and more knockback than either!). Having this larger supply of hitboxes can help the cause of many moves.

Sonic's spins do less than 10%, are extremely non-disjointed, and I suspect don't have many different hitboxes. Low priority is to be expected, and there's not really much to be done about it short of something ridiculous (like making his spins do 20% or something).

Do remember the question in terms of Sonic killing though. It is to be expected that he kills at higher damages than most other characters, but what does that translate to in terms of the flow of the match if he's good at racking damage? If Sonic kills at 160% while some opponent kills him at 120% but it's easier for Sonic to get that opponent to 160% than it is for them to get Sonic to 120%, that's a good matchup for Sonic (and if the match goes to time, this model actually benefits Sonic since even if he's actually losing in terms of how close each character is to dying, his opponent might still have more damage than him). Of course, if it's the other way and both characters have an equally easy time getting each other to any arbitrary percentage, it's obviously pretty bad for Sonic since when they're both at 120% only one of them is ready to die with Sonic only hoping his mobility translates into him being abnormally hard to hit with the hopefully slower kill moves the opponent is using.

I'm saying I'm not sure the ultimate solution is to just make Sonic better at killing; it's not the only avenue here. Statements like "While he's doing this, he has to avoid being damaged, which is hard due to his opponents great range, and sonic's lack of priority" sound like indicators of other avenues to consider in balancing Sonic. Here's what I'm thinking here to really refine this issue. For one, just how bad are his worst matchups in Balanced Brawl, and just how do those matchups tend to go? For two, what are Sonic's best matchups in Balanced Brawl, and just how do those matchups tend to go? After all, while I want to make sure Sonic is on an level playing field with everyone else, I don't want to go the other way and screw over the characters Sonic counters...

Fun fact. In development, I was a strong advocate of buffing all the plunging down aerials a lot and had far more ambition for them than the final release showed. The test version of Sonic's down aerial had far, far less landing lag and was pretty comparable to Mr. Game & Watch's key (not quite safe but pretty close, Sonic's I think had 1-2 frames less landing lag than Mr. Game & Watch's). Testers ended up totally hating this and complained basically non-stop about it which was disheartening to me (as a main of the character with a good plunging down aerial, I know how amazing they can be for mixing things up which seemed to be a really logical direction for Sonic). I actually had quite a few heated arguments over it but ended up going with the things that were less jarring and traded the "political capital", so to speak, for changes on other characters; on the few issues Thinkaman and I disagreed on internally, we ended up splitting down the middle taking stuff we each felt relatively less passionately about and stuff that was more popular with testers (which we were able to agree was a general approach that probably made the best final game). I don't want to give the impression we didn't work harmoniously; we agreed on 99% of stuff so there was pretty little compromising. I just thought it was a good time for an anecdote about the other 1% here.

 

[CarVac]

@AA:
Just wondering about Sonic's Dair: Which side complained about this? The sonic players, or their opponents? If the opponent complained about it, you could tone it down a little. I don't, however, see why the Sonic mains would complain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I missed a highly interesting discussion on Sonic. ****.

Even if you buffed his F-smash and D-smash, they would not be viable KO moves. They are too slow to be viable against conservative opponents. B-air is in a similar position. It appears faster at 13 frames, but factoring the startup of jumping it's now at 19 frames, and then there is the problem of getting people into the position where you can hit them with it without telegraphing yourself severely. U-air similarly, suffers from being telegraphed, since it only is a KO move near the blastzone. If you simply wait, Sonic cannot set up a KO move without telegraphing it. In this way, all of his KO moves are avoidable on reaction.

As Pierce states, Sonic cannot kill you if you do not commit to a dodge (which is the only way he has a viable opening for landing KO moves). He can rack up damage effectively, but outside of his mentioned KO moves, he really can't guarantee his opponent won't survive past 200%.

Ideally his B-throw should be a viable high percent KO move. It wouldn't drastically change his playstyle, but it would make him a viable character. He would still have major problems killing at respectable percents, but he would at least have a way to keep up in case his opponent managed to not get mindgamed into one of his horrible KO moves.

As I've mentioned before, Spring Gimp is nice, but only really works in a few matchups where the opponent already has extremely limited recovery options, like Ganon, Link, Captain Falcon, Bowser, Donkey Kong.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@AA:
Just wondering about Sonic's Dair: Which side complained about this? The sonic players, or their opponents? If the opponent complained about it, you could tone it down a little. I don't, however, see why the Sonic mains would complain.

Make sonics sweet spot dair spike.

This is a fair and balenced addition that helps alleviate a lot of sonics problems

also make his up air do at least 12%

i complained about it.
also, if you wont take these ideas, why not do what the brawl plus people did, and make sonics down smash fast enough to punish with. I think they made it weaker too. because it keeps the idea of having sonic have to wrack a lot of damage. but it just gives him a more solid and concrete way to get that last final hit in.

 

[JOE!]

that could work...

I mean, the move even looks like it should be spammable to an extent (he just rolls around)

 

[-Axis-]

Most characters are more flexible at core than you give them credit for, and please don't worry so much about that old Diddy Kong comment (his value in Balanced Brawl is not completely static anyway). The main point was to say that we are balancing toward the near-top but not the absolute-top.

The thing with Fox is that he's not really "bad" in standard Brawl in the sense that he has a pretty effective moveset and a coherent playstyle. In most matchups, Fox is really not bad; if we just take him at total face value, he may even be high tier (remember those Japanese tier lists that put Fox pretty high up?). The reason he's ultimately low tier in standard Brawl is because of how abusable he is. Pikachu and Sheik in particular just wreck him with stupid stuff, and Zero Suit Samus gets some pretty silly stuff out of dsmash as well. We made those issues pretty much go away for Fox; that's his real buff. Now we're seeing how he pans out in a game where he's not shot in the foot by a few horrible matchups before he even gets started. Sadly, Fox has not been used very much so we have fairly limited data on him...

Jigglypuff is not nearly as bad as people make her out to be; it's not like Mr. Game & Watch can use turtle over and over again and Jigglypuff has no choice but to jump into it. Her game is focused around a more narrow set of moves than all the other characters which makes her somewhat tricky, but given that Thinkaman mains Jigglypuff in standard Brawl, we have expertise about her on our side.

I think you are simply mistaken in saying Snake's moveset is fundamentally more versatile than the average character's. If anything, Snake is a prime example of a character who succeeds primarily on the basis of just being really rewarding (high damage, high kill power). I think if you give the other characters a fair shot, you'll discover they aren't exactly simple either; there are no one trick ponies in Bbrawl.

Makes sense, I can see your point. I'd just like to thank you for taking the time to actually address the things I've said. Please keep in mind that these were simply aspects of the game that I didn't fully understand, and I in no way am showing a lack of support for this project. In fact, I've been wanting to try it for a few weeks now.

 

[K.Mac]

that could work...

I mean, the move even looks like it should be spammable to an extent (he just rolls around)

I wouldn't say no to a ROB-style spotdodge-into-Dsmash spammable mindgame combo, although since the point of BBrawl is to improve characters without making them play differently than on vBrawl, changing his Dmash speed to make it come out faster will unhinge that. The same with his FSmash.

:/

 

[BSP]

I wouldn't say no to a ROB-style spotdodge-into-Dsmash spammable mindgame combo, although since the point of BBrawl is to improve characters without making them play differently than on vBrawl, changing his Dmash speed to make it come out faster will unhinge that. The same with his FSmash.

:/

IMO, it's either that or make one of his throws a high percent kill move.

 

[JayBee]

These buffs are nice and everything but don't deal with Sonics real problems like range, approaching and killing. Why not just simply make his Fsmash and Dsmash faster and stronger...?

Iv'e played sonic since this game came out. to be honest with you, chis is right. You have to deal with his killing issues. if we dont do something its not gonna matter what you do to everything else, and that's fact. you have to make the kill moves more viable and reliable, which basiaclly comes down to adjusting the speed of the attack or the power. i am leaning towards the speed buff since this matches with sonic's game well, as well as the fact that he is a fast character. even if i had a slight power nerf on my kill moves i wouldn't mind if they were more reliable and faster. If these aren't changed then maybe a buff on his running speed to make up for those horirble matchups where he has too much trouble getting in, thought i even doubt that would be sufficiant.

In brawl, sonic has advantages only against the worst characters in the game, and even then some are slightly. you will almost never see them in tourney play so im wondering how you'd even notice the improvement over time if he's only play metas and marths and the like? The kill moves suck, more power doesn't even change that fact, it would make opponents even more defensive IMO.

I wonder if people think sonic is better than he actually is...

 

[da K.I.D.]

I wouldn't say no to a ROB-style spotdodge-into-Dsmash spammable mindgame combo, although since the point of BBrawl is to improve characters without making them play differently than on vBrawl, changing his Dmash speed to make it come out faster will unhinge that. The same with his FSmash.

:/

It doesnt really change his gameplay at all seeing that i already use spotdodge to down smash with sonic in regular brawl. the only difference is that it changes the move from a move thats really weak and relys on the opponent spotdodging into a weak hit that will hopefully flow into another attack, into a move that can hit with some power and is guaranteed in some situations

Sonic is supposed to be a fast character that can out manuver characters and pelt them with small damaging attacks whilst staying safe. if you ask me, that sounds a lot like meta knight. and metaknight still has an extremely fast kill move, even if its weaker than some other characters kill moves. so i really dont see the problem with making downsmash faster.

 

[BSP]

I like what Kid said, he got it right. "Relys on the opponent spotdodging into a weak hit..." It's exactly like what Pierce says in his thread, if you don't dodge, Sonic can't kill you.

 

[The_Altrox]

I brought this game to a smash gathering, and they all loved it. One of them even said that "we should only play BBrawl now." (unfortunately, I have to play VBrawl enough since that's a tourney standard as of right now.)
So far, I think everything is pretty well built. Most characters have nice fixes. The only things I reccomend are...

- Somehow buff Ness's recovery. Because it's very easy to counter.
- Make PT playable as a whole and as individual pogeymanz.

 

[Linkshot]

Those two will never happen :D Ness has a great on-stage game and if you give him great recovery, he will be far too good.

Pokemon Trainer is a team. That will never be broken. Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are his subordinates. If you don't like playing even one of those, then don't play Pokemon Trainer. They are obligations.

 

[The_Altrox]

Those two will never happen :D Ness has a great on-stage game and if you give him great recovery, he will be far too good.

Pokemon Trainer is a team. That will never be broken. Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are his subordinates. If you don't like playing even one of those, then don't play Pokemon Trainer. They are obligations.

It wouldn't be too bad if I could just kick Ivysaur to the curb...

 

[Eldiran]

Iv'e played sonic since this game came out. to be honest with you, chis is right. You have to deal with his killing issues. if we dont do something its not gonna matter what you do to everything else, and that's fact.

Just to point out, this is not how it works. In a complex fighting game, there's always more than one way to solve an issue, especially one as broad as, "make this character good". There is an enormous number of ways they could make Sonic viable without buffing his kill moves.

Examples just to illustrate how varied solutions could be:
- Make all his other attacks deal 10% more damage without increasing their knockback.
- Give Sonic an infinite shield.
- Make all the other characters suck.
- Give Sonic the ability to spawn food at-will.

Naturally all these solutions are utterly ridiculous, and would contradict the purpose of the project. But my point is that there's never just one way to fix a character -- don't assume just because Sonic's problem involves killing, he can't be fixed by changing something other than his kill moves.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Such as kill move set-ups! Give D-smash a low angle so it can set up a gimp would be a good buff, but of course I'd like to see what the Sonic mains think and how it'll affect their MU's.

 

[Steeler]

Pokemon Trainer is a team. That will never be broken.

Pokemon Trainer - No Pokemon Swap
C2816AF4 0000000A
3E408062 3A523320
3A60FFFF 3E730001
7E732038 1E730244
7E529A14 80120000
2C00001D 41800024
2C000022 4181001C
2C170115 41820014
38A5FFFF 2C050000
40800008 38A00002
7C0802A6 00000000

 

[Pierce7d]

I just want to say that I have read the entire thread, and I'm not going to make a big post now, though I'll be dropping in again.

 

[Chis]

Just to point out, this is not how it works. In a complex fighting game, there's always more than one way to solve an issue, especially one as broad as, "make this character good". There is an enormous number of ways they could make Sonic viable without buffing his kill moves.

Examples just to illustrate how varied solutions could be:
- Make all his other attacks deal 10% more damage without increasing their knockback.
- Give Sonic an infinite shield.
- Make all the other characters suck.
- Give Sonic the ability to spawn food at-will.

Naturally all these solutions are utterly ridiculous, and would contradict the purpose of the project. But my point is that there's never just one way to fix a character -- don't assume just because Sonic's problem involves killing, he can't be fixed by changing something other than his kill moves.

That's a terrible and over exaggerated comparison. All these minor buffs won’t improve Sonic as nearly as enough as giving him a reliable kill move which would help in loads of match ups. People have been playing this game for over a year so surely they would know exactly what would improve their character by now? You can only improve Sonic in so many ways, you can add a bunch of little quirks and gimmicks to his moves until he doesn't even play as original intentioned, increase his hit boxes, loads of damage buffs, give him a reliable approach or just improve his methods of killing. If you won’t listen to the facts to mainers (and non-mainers) bring, who will you listen too?

 

[Eldiran]

That's a terrible and over exaggerated comparison. All these minor buffs won’t improve Sonic as nearly as enough as giving him a reliable kill move which would help in loads of match ups. People have been playing this game for over a year so surely they would know exactly what would improve their character by now? You can only improve Sonic in so many ways, you can add a bunch of little quirks and gimmicks to his moves until he doesn't even play as original intentioned, increase his hit boxes, loads of damage buffs, give him a reliable approach or just improve his methods of killing. If you won’t listen to the facts to mainers (and non-mainers) bring, who will you listen too?

My example buffs are certainly over-exaggerated, yes. But I'm just trying to dispel the attitude of, "if you don't make Sonic's KO moves better, you CAN'T fix him". I don't think anyone ever said that improving his KO moves wouldn't fix him, so it's not like that opinion is being ignored. But the point of BBrawl is to try to fix things with the smallest and least noticeable possible changes. We should focus on what's going wrong in the matchups Sonic loses in, and try to find the most subtle, suitable changes we can make to fix those matchups.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The key word here is matchup
Any matchup data is prefered over than character-improve ideas.

Too bad most people are not matchup data collectors, and only wants to improve their characters
(including myself... I mean, Zelda really needs not to depending too much of Sheik, that doesn't needs Zelda at all...)

 

[Linkshot]

For Zelda&Sheik, Sheik really needs to struggle at killing the most in the game. As in, can't kill Mario until 200%. This will ensure Zelda gets used, and we accentuate that she hits hard and far, but doesn't rack the damage.

For Sonic, we simply make him rack damage FASTER. However, I don't think he's inherently flawed as a whole character. We need to see if the Sonic mains are actually using dTilt properly before we accept their complaints

 

[The Brown Scourge]

Turn Link's Up-B into a reflector for energy-based projectiles!!!

 

[Mr. Escalator]

TBH I can only speak for G&W with near certainty, though it doesn't mean much as AmazingAmpharos has a firm grasp on him as well.

 

[Pierce7d]

Sonic is the easiest character to fix ever.

Change the angle on Nair so that it hits at a downward angle. Same as MK's Dair (but obviously it won't be as devestating as MKs Dair because it doesn't have the same range and Sonic can't chase you with it since he can't fly). It also can set up a tech chase at high percent, leading into Bair or fsmash.

This sets him up to land K.O.s, and doesn't change the character at all.

In short, if you merely wait against Sonic, Bair and Fsmash can be dodged or blocked on reaction. As long as you are looking for these moves, and take the appropriate response, you won't really get K.O.ed. Just relax your dodging habits, look for those moves, and disregard most other hits.

Uair is pretty good, but easy to dodge out of.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Wow... Pierce just fixed Sonic...

 

[Eldiran]

That's the kind of fix I am talking about.