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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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ぱみゅ

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I was thinking of this the other day.
Correct me if wrong, but, isn't Zelda technically on BBrawl's "Ganondorf" category??

She got few damage/angle buffs (I can only recall Dsmash and Bthrow, although both are useful), and she was provided with a lot of new tricks, techniques and combos (most of them are pretty unnecesaries)...
Just like Ganon... =/
 

Laos Oman

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Woop. Can't wait for the PAL release.

...Just one question. Pikmin Chain, does it still put Olimar in helpless state when used in mid-air?
 

Lokee

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I was thinking of this the other day.
Correct me if wrong, but, isn't Zelda technically on BBrawl's "Ganondorf" category??

She got few damage/angle buffs (I can only recall Dsmash and Bthrow, although both are useful), and she was provided with a lot of new tricks, techniques and combos (most of them are pretty unnecesaries)...
Just like Ganon... =/
:zelda:
Jab initial hits damage (2%) -> (1%), knockback (100/0) -> (75/0), flower element
Jab final hit damage (2%) -> (1%), knockback (160/10) -> (100/10), flower element
Forward tilt is double speed starting on frame 14
Forward tilt far hitbox knockback (88/50) -> (15/70)
Up tilt angle (70) -> (90)
Various small adjustments to forward smash hitboxes (traps better)
Down smash first hit knockback (95/20) -> (100/20), angle (20) -> (25)
Down smash second hit knockback (85/20) -> (100/20), angle (20) -> (25)
Neutral aerial last hit damage (5%) -> (7%)
Back throw knockback (60/80) -> (80/70)
Farore's Wind initial hit damage (6%) -> (8%), knockback (100/40) -> (20/75), angle (80) -> (25)
Farore's Wind reappearance hitbox damage (6%) -> (10%), knockback (100/40) -> (20/80), angle (-) -> (270)

and

:ganondorf:
Up tilt wind damage (0%) -> (1%)
Down tilt slip element (like bananas; causes trip)
Down smash first hit sweetspot knockback (100/0) -> (90/0), angle (140) -> (150)
Down smash first hit sourspot knockback (100/0) -> (75/0), angle (50) -> (150)
Down smash second hit damage (14%) -> (16%), knockback (75/60) -> (80/60)
Pummel damage (2%) -> (5%), darkness element
Back throw damage (5%) -> (6%) (New total: 11%)
Up throw damage (3%) -> (5%) (New total: 9%)
Down throw has more constant knockback (50/70) -> (25/75)
Aerial Flame Choke damage (12%) -> (14%)
Dark Dive uppercut damage (7%) -> (18%), knockback (90/70) -> (90/80)
Dark Dive repeated hits damage (1%) -> (2%) (new total: 15%)
Dark Dive throw angle (-) -> (335)
Wizard's Foot startup hit damage (12%) -> (16%), knockback (70/60) -> (65/75)
Wizard's Foot duration hit damage (10%) -> (11%), knockback (70/60) -> (70/75)
Aerial Wizard's Foot initial hitbox knockback (100/50) -> (46/40), grounding element
Aerial Wizard's Foot landing hitbox knockback (35/80) -> (0/80), angle (80) -> (0)
Well see for yourself here is the change list.
 

Lokee

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I thinking either Ness/Lucas , Ice Climbers, Falcon, Wario or maybe Link or Dk

EDIT: and Jigglypuff but honestly I know a majority of people dont play as her so im iffy of dicussing her, but good thing for her Thinkaman mains her.
 

Alphatron

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Well I recently skimmed over a thread talking about deleting model parts, However I do not know if it can be applied to stages or remove its collision detection for that matter.

About the title screen. I saw Brawl+ and frankly its basically the same except with the + tacted on, while I was expecting something more FLASHY to coinside with the aspect of "FUN" that the project likes to promote all too well.
Quit bashing my photoshop skills. I know that I suck already.

I attempted to make a balanced brawl title too, but it didn't work out so well. You're quite limited in HOW you edit the screen for one thing, so all I was really willing to change was the word braw", essentially adding the word "balanced" before it. But I suppose you think that would suck.

Well, I'd basically put the balanced brawl logo there and add the ying yang tones to the letter "O" in the word bros, finally making the words Harmony, Viability, and Balance scroll in the near untouchable background.

Well, that's what I was doing anyway. ;_;
 

rPSIvysaur

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I think Jiggly's good and if she needs help thinkaman has it covered. I say we talk about Link.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Link is an interesting enough character I guess, but I want to bring up a side-point beforehand. If you have nothing to add on the side-point, feel free to start saying stuff about Link.

Has anyone messed around with the Sonic vs Falco matchup in Bbrawl? I found a kinda silly tactic. Sonic abuses dthrow heavily; it's pretty hard to tech out of, and you can chase Falco really well otherwise. If you can manage to chase him to a ledge and grab, dthrow puts him below the stage. Falco has a pretty terrible vertical recovery that is spring bait.

That probably has some effectiveness in other matchups, but I found it against Falco. Can anyone else check it out and confirm/deny the effectivenesss?
 

ShermantheTank

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For anyone who remembers, we had a Balanced Brawl tournament last weekend. I finally got around to uploading some videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/PewPewPit

Unfortunately the tourny was scrub-city, but we got some good videos none-the-less. I'll try and get some more up over the next couple of days, but hopefully this will help the discussion for some of the characters.
 

dansal

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yeah, I use that against my brother all the time. I'm not sure if this helps though...

(replying to AA)
 

CarVac

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My impression of the Sonic's play from those videos is that he has almost nothing that is safe versus Yoshi. His bair, I noted, is not only slow, but weak (in comparison to Ness's, whose bair I'm used to). He consistently had a damage disadvantage, as well as a killing disadvantage. Yoshi could rack damage simply by letting Sonic approach and hitting him away, whereas Sonic's approaches were easily beaten. Then, Yoshi seemed to just have to spam Upsmashes once Sonic was off the edge to eventually get the kill.

IMO Sonic still needs some help racking damage.
 

Rinku リンク

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I say making Link's d-tilt spike 100% would help him with his bad MU's. The arrow buffs are great and all but really, they're very easy to dodge and avoid so Link really doesen't have a reliable way to gimp.
 

CarVac

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@Twilightlink: Could you elaborate?
Which are his "bad matchups" that would be balanced by the dtilt spike, and on the other side which matchups that are currently good in bbrawl would become too good?
 

Lokee

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Quit bashing my photoshop skills. I know that I suck already
Sorry didnt mean to offend you in any particular way. I will Wiz spike myself for retrobution.

Now, about Sonic. I saw the videos, Really enjoyable and a constant game of tug of war, at least between Snake and Sonic, Sonic and Yoshi was a little iffy mainly due to Yoshi's survivabilty coupled with his newfound KO and Damage Buffs will probably make him a bad matchup for the blue hedgehog.

I say he needs some really minor buffs
1) Increase Pummel dammage
2) Relatively high% kill B-Throw for killing assurance
3) Give N-Air the downward angle (such as Pierce7d suggested)

That's pretty much it. Unless anyone has any............ OBJECTIONS *finger*

Sherman do you have videos of these guys: Ganon, Bowser, Falcon, PT.

Also Almost 200 page YEAH!
 

Rinku リンク

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@Twilightlink: Could you elaborate?
Which are his "bad matchups" that would be balanced by the dtilt spike, and on the other side which matchups that are currently good in bbrawl would become too good?
Bad MU's like Falco, Marth, MK, R.O.B. pretty much all the high tiers. Link doesen't have any good MU's really unless you count Ivysaur and Ganondorf which are his only good MU's in vbrawl. Giving him a d-tilt that will always spike will make it a bit more fair in my opinion seeing how easy it is to gimp a Link in the 1st place. If not then just make his recovery slightly better like in brawl+ :p
 

rPSIvysaur

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I still don't see how that would improve his Metaknight or Marth MU, but I can we it that if it had higher damage to intercept Falco's recovery. Of course a Kb compensation would have to be used. Also, ROB laughs in the face of meteor smashes.

So Hero, what do can you attacks usually on Falco when you fight hi?
 

The Milk Monster

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I still don't see how that would improve his Metaknight or Marth MU, but I can we it that if it had higher damage to intercept Falco's recovery. Of course a Kb compensation would have to be used. Also, ROB laughs in the face of meteor smashes.

So Hero, what do can you attacks usually on Falco when you fight hi?
In my opinion dthrow tech chase with Sonic rules.

I think Link's dtilt spiking would be a great idea. The practicality of it hitting is pretty small, so risking doing it, knowing it's easy to punish it, but if it hits, ****, is nice.

Don't make it spike as hard as Plus though, it's completely ridiculous.

Yeah wouldn't really help much against ROB. Gotta' projectile gimp him to run him out of gas, silly.

Think and AA, you should see if there is a way to like...give a wall cling property to Link's tether, like when it's not close enough to home the edge. Just to see if it's possible.

Sherman do you have videos of these guys: Ganon, Bowser, Falcon, PT.
Next time Think and I get together and play, we'll record our Falcon Ditto Money Matches. ;)

Some Ganon ones too or something.

PT I have a buddy to give good vids for, and Think!

Bowser, iunno, I can play him a bit better then mediocre.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Or you just meteorsmash him 5 times in a row... lol

Anyway, it'll probably help his Falco MU alot
 

rPSIvysaur

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Next time me and Hero do friendlies, we'll try to get some .bin replays for you. (Assuming, we don't forget)

Edit: S***, double post.
 

Ehic

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So what holds link down in his weaker matches? My impression of him is he has an awesome and versatile camp game, good damage racking, and great at killing potential. I know his recovery is crap but I don't see him as easy to knock off the edge to set up gimps. How bad are his worst marchups? Except ROB (who seems like a very difficult match), are the others potentially unwinnable?
 

A2ZOMG

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Link is fine.

The only thing that really held him back was a lack of reliable KO options honestly, which was mostly fixed, now that you can actually kill people with Up-B and D-tilt. Arrows actually having knockback means they work MUCH better as positional setups and gimp tools. Like, in theory, you can use arrows to push people offstage, set up the ledge trap, and hopefully get more free D-airs from predicting ledge getups.

Probably, his main problem at this point is just being very difficult to learn, meaning that there are only a few select players who can do well with him. However, I will point out that I believe he also suffers from being inferior to Olimar. Try to tell me one matchup he does good in that Olimar can't do better. Mainly, Olimar has a grab with infinitely superior safety, and much more massive reward.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I think I should get around to saying what I've seen of Link. I've seen a lot of him and used him a lot myself, but I haven't gotten too much quality Link time (I think Thinkaman has though). Ahead of time warning, this turned out about 3x as long as I wanted it to, but Link was a big focus in-development and has seen a lot of play on my end so I have a lot to say.

Link seems good to me. He's powerful and disjointed, and his projectile game is solid. I see him used a lot when I play with a Street Fighter fan who is a friend of him; I compared Link to Sagat and think I had said friend sold on Link (kinda slow except not really that slow with good range, power, and projectile game). Actually, that comparison seems pretty strong to me. Link is Sagat except Sagat never had to worry about recovery while Link does, and his is really very poor. Mobility also matters more in Smash, and that's not a positive point for Link. Then again, Sagat has been top tier in I think literally over half the games he's been in (and high tier in most of the others!) so we don't want to follow that too closely...

To talk in more smash terms I think people probably appreciate more, Link has a lot of options, and most of his moveset is comprised of good moves. First of all, he is one of only three characters with a damaging tether attack (sorry Lucas). It isn't quite as amazing as Samus's, but it is obviously a really good move given that it's super disjointed and completely lagless. The fact that out of a short hop Link has a super disjointed, lagless option is a really big deal that shouldn't be overlooked or downplayed at all; when I start talking about all of his power moves and you think how that could give Link a lack of safe options, remember this move since it's the safest option you could ever ask for.

So, let's talk about how many power moves Link has. Link's forward tilt was one of his best killers in Brawl, and it's even better now. It's actually probably one of the better general purpose killers in the game; it has the speed of a tilt, nice disjointed hitboxes, and a lot of power. Down tilt is mostly just worse than forward tilt, but it can have stage position functional independence (it kills up as opposed to to the side), and it's one of those nice sorts of "extra" kill moves to have. The move doesn't have any real place in Link's damage racking game (unlike forward tilt which can be good to use in non-fatal situations quite frequently) so it's basically guaranteed to be fresh, and that means because of it Link always has a credible kill move ready to use. As an aside, I'm unconvinced of it spiking being good for Link; he's already kinda polarized against fellow poor recoveries thanks to the arrows, and near-ledge gameplay is something he wants to shift the game away from anyway. What it can already do is a neat parlor trick, but I don't think it's important to Link. Anyway, then you have grounded Spin Attack which I feel is being really underrated. For one, this move hits REALLY hard, and even though it doesn't hit that hard if they spotdodge it or roll behind Link, it does linger long enough to hit anyway basically limiting the number of defensive options effective against it (and the ones that counter some of the other stuff Link can do, more later). For two, you can mix up with it effectively due to the charging, and if you actually land a charged one, it can kill at the sort of ridiculously low percentages that win the game in effect right there. I like to use this move a lot; it's not very hard to hit with when you put everything together, and the reward is very far on the side of "worth it".

Link's last grounded kill move deserves its own little paragraph. Link's forward smash is an amazing move that I'm surprised doesn't see more love. For one, fsmash 2 is objectively Link's most powerful kill move; I think fully charged it actually edges out fully charged Spin Attack (both are obscene at full charge though). I know it does more base damage than Spin Attack if nothing else. Fsmash 1 isn't weak either; it can only seem disappointing when compared to the raw death that the second hit is. Of course, then you consider the question of landing Link's fsmash. Well, fsmash 1 by itself is a somewhat disjointed not that slow attack. Just using it like that nets a passable reward. However, what happens if the opponent blocks fsmash 1? What happens is Link gets one of the best on-block mix-ups in this game. Fundamentally, Link has two choices. He can use fsmash 2 or do something else. Fundamentally the opponent has two choices. They can do something OoS to try to punish Link after fsmash 1 or they can keep blocking. Let's look at all four choices.

First of all, if they try to do something OoS and Link uses fsmash 2, they get hit. Fsmash 2, as covered, is a totally ridiculous move on the power scale. This covers 1/4 of this possibility tree, and it's massively in Link's favor.

If they keep blocking and Link uses fsmash 2, fsmash 2 inflicts tons of shield pushback and shieldstun. In fact, they are so far away with enough shieldstun that not even tether grabs can punish Link. Yes, that's right. Fsmash 2 is safe on block, and I think that's new to Balanced Brawl. So, in this case, the outcome is neutral leaning toward Link. After all, he just did massive shield damage and is in a good position. The opponent is "out", and both characters are on the ground. That's what Link wants positionally in general! So this 1/4 is a small net win for Link, and it's the one where the opponent predicted Link correctly.

If they keep blocking and Link doesn't fsmash 2, he can pretty easily grab them or just return to neutral and punish anything they try to do OoS later (shielding against an opponent in neutral is kinda sucky). It's pretty hard to avoid taking damage from Link in this position; this 1/4 is a win for Link.

If they do something OoS and Link doesn't fsmash 2, they probably get him or get away. They do 1/3 to 1/2 what Link would have done if he went the other way and landed fsmash 2. It's a win for them, but it's a medium-sized win like the third possibility. It's also the only 1/4 of the possibility tree that actually is a win for the other side.

So look at it from Link's perspective. He can fsmash 2 on block and be guaranteed some win, even if just a small one. Of course, if he doesn't like always getting a small win, he can sometimes go for the other direction with its medium sized win, and if the opponent ever starts doing things to counter that, his big win is back in play! Link also has the timing mix-up on fsmash 2 (he doesn't have to use it immediately after fsmash 1; he can delay a little bit and then use it) which only gives him more options. If fsmash 1 was charged at all, it does more shieldstun than usual which makes timing everything harder for the opponent but doesn't really change the timing of anything for Link. Everything here lines up in Link's favor; this is really, really good. When fighting against Link, I basically avoid standing in front of him shielding because I just don't want to deal with this. In Brawl, if you can make your opponent scared to rely on blocking, you're making good progress.

I would move on to the other facets of Link's game, but he has yet more killing options in his fair and dair. Fair is a fairly situational killer that is best used after a bunch of tether attacks. It hits in the same direction as the super-safe, spammable move except it's slower, not very safe, and kills. It's not as good of a mix-up as some of Link's other options, but more options really never hurt anyone. Dair is kinda like fsmash in the sense that it's a very powerful move that is actually safe on block (because of the "pogo" effect). It's also really high priority for a few reasons; dair is basically good in any situation where it doesn't whiff. That makes it pretty nice to have, and given that Link is generally a grounded character, having a dair like that puts the risk-reward in "Link is getting juggled" situations much more toward Link's favor than would be otherwise.

Link has three very nice hitbox upward hitting moves in uair, utilt, and usmash. I find he uses all three more defensively than offensively, and they work very well at making the plan of "why don't I go over Link's stuff by attacking from above?" not really work very well.

Link's projectile game is one of the better ones in the game. Link has three different projectiles (on top of the super spammable and disjointed tether attack that in some ways is like a projectile itself!). On hit, the arrows can gimp sometimes and put the opponent on the ground or off-stage decently far from Link all of the time. The Gale Boomerang can be thrown at a wide variety of angles and can really screw up the opponent's spacing. The bombs bounce on shields (making powershielding not a particularly effective answer to them), hit decently hard, can be "cooked" like grenades so they blow up as they reach a target, and as throwable items are generally really diverse in the number of things Link can do with them (for instance, being thrown in any cardinal direction). Link can make effective projectile walls and generally pick at the opponent with projectiles in a really diverse number of ways. So, inbetween his mix-ups and powerhouse antics, Link is constantly barraging the opponent with approach limiting, dangerous, and sometimes difficult to avoid spam. His passive shield is a semi-important advantage if the opponent tried to reply to his spam with spam, just throwing that out there.

Oh yeah, Link's jab, nair, and bair are generally decent too, but I don't have anything specific to say about them. His dsmash is kinda bad, but he can't win them all, right?

That was a very long discussion on Link's positives, but given that Link was generally considered bottom tier in standard Brawl, I wanted to be really, really clear just how much good stuff this character has going for him now (most of it not so much new but better than before). I think his "hard to use" reputation largely stems from just how much stuff this is. With most characters, you don't actually have to keep yourself very busy to be effective. With Link, you have a bunch of mix-ups to be aware of and need to exploit, and thanks to the way his projectiles and tether work, you pretty much always have a choice of rewarding options to pursue which can make finding the best move difficult. On the other hand, his major weakness (terrible off-stage game, specifically terrible when Link is off-stage for any reason) is pretty easy to understand and exploit appropriately, and it makes positioning with Link fairly important.

Match-up wise, I find Link does well against other characters with poor off-stage games (the ditto is hilarious, I think he probably beats Olimar, I don't like fighting Link with DK/Bowser, etc.), though the Star Fox characters are an odd case since their reflectors make his arrows suddenly incredibly risky to use (I think Link does fairly well against them, but he has to be really careful/smart). Link is also a specific pain for Mr. Game & Watch for quite a few reasons, and that's decently valuable. On the other hand, Link probably still loses to someone like Meta Knight who likes to stick to the air, totally outspeeds him on the offense, and has a strong off-stage game, though it's not completely horrible for him like it was in standard Brawl. All around, I think Link has decent matchups with some pluses and some minuses. He seems like a well-balanced character to me.

I don't have much to say about stages. He does a decent job avoiding the stage issues since stages where he can't "hunker down" effectively like Norfair and Rainbow Cruise let him run away and spam better and also make his recovery less of a focus if he plays them right. I will say Link loves Bridge of Eldin and it's very obvious why it's his stage; if you decide to have that one legal, Link will love you longtime. Mario Circuit and Onett being added to the CP list solidly certainly doesn't upset him either!

To be honest, I'm not sure if Link needs to change. He has what he needs to win, he seems legitimately good, but he's not overpowered and not sufficiently polarizing to be a serious concern (if anyone other than Link were the one with those arrows, it might be too unfair to Link but...). I ended up writing way more than I intended to about Link, but I had a lot to say about him.

---

As per those Sonic matches, I notice Sonic wasn't being very aggressive off-stage, and I was feeling like the reason he seemed to be totally unable to get any momentum in the overall matches against Yoshi was probably rooted in that. I'm not saying Sonic was going to be gimping Yoshi a lot, but due to the way Yoshi's recovery works, someone like Sonic who can safely chase far off-stage has a very good opportunity to get free damage basically every time Yoshi is off-stage (also a much better chance to score kills than when they are both on-stage). Yoshi was off-stage a whole lot in the games I watched; it just seemed like so many opportunities Sonic was letting slip by. I can see logically why Yoshi might be a pain for Sonic (and it's definitely a matchup that has not been discussed before this), but I think that set might have made things look worse for Sonic than they really were. Sonic did do a good job of showing how he can be just plain obnoxious to someone like Snake though; I've seen some games of standard Brawl that already showed Sonic had some more stuff in that matchup than he tends to get credit for already, and the Balanced Brawl shifts definitely only help there.
 

Mit

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Yoshi vs. primarily physical characters without much disjointedness is usually a good matchup for Yoshi. I play a lot of Falcon vs. Yoshi in vBrawl and BBrawl. I do know the matchup very well now and it usually looks more even than it really is, but Yoshi in general can shutdown physical characters with bair pretty easily, and from there all hell breaks loose with his combos. He also has great range on his kill moves (like fsmash), his usmash has super armor so he can blast through a lot of physical characters' attacks, and his dsmash is deadly in Bbrawl as well. It is hard to do much to him offstage as well, since he usually just double jumps through everything. If you get caught offstage with him above you as well, his dair can be pretty dangerous (probably less of an issue with Sonic, however).

Also, I still think someone needs to find Izaw and give him BBrawl Link. We'd probably have to nerf Link.
 

JOE!

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as for the bad Link MU's:

all of them except MK I belive were only 40/60..

VS ROB im not sure of it now...

VS Marth should be 45/55 or better seeing as marth didnt change, perhaps even in link's favor slightly
 

Thinkaman

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Link's dair is one of the strongest vertical kill moves in the game. If we made it a spike and took that away, Legan would never forgive me.

I'm not sure that trying to give Link a reason to go offstage is going to help him against ROB...

Also, thanks a million for the videos!
 

ShermantheTank

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Honestly, I think AA's got a great grasp of where Link stands. So unless anyone else has something to add, let's pick a new character.
 

The Milk Monster

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Think, we were talking about dtilt silly.

Wario is fine as is, he kills relatively early still, deals damage, coin effect on pummel is amazing, and no grab releases compensates for nerfed fsmash and clap, easily.

Lucas, I'd like to talk about. Once we start talking about Ness, I'll give all the info possible.
 

The Milk Monster

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Well, considering grab releases are gone, you have some stress off your shoulders playing as Ness, considering you can afford to be grabbed now, instead of playing the entire match halfway across the level.

I find myself using his dthrow a lot more. It puts on percent pretty quick, and at lower percents, it can set up alright for a uair.

Dsmash hits like a truck now if you can mind game it to hit.

Usmash was always pretty good.

Besides that, Ness is pretty legit now. No gay grab release infinites, I'd throw him high up on mid tier, considering he's got a decent camp game, can kill quick, amazing approach and spacing options, Not half bad recovery, LOTS of kill options, lagless aerials, good throws, and a pretty good momentum cancel.

I'd say his cons are his recovery still, can be a tad predictable, PK Fire is HELLA easy to punish on a wiff, light (Though his DI is pretty great, I find myself surviving till like...150%+ on average.), and smashes can be tricky to land. Thank god for bair/bthrow/dair! :)
 

Lokee

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 30, 2009
Messages
194
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I only dabble in Ness and Lucas but from the general looks of it Id say they are both in a good place however I find Lucas in particularly more of a beast. The bursting lightning I would say. and perhaps Ness the burning wall. Really though its really hard to say who is the better Psychic (which has been argued to death)

Lucas may feel better because he seems alot easier to pickup than Ness, and Ness's recovery still seems a bit iffy to me although I cant ignore the PK Fire. although it telegrapths itself to no end.

Virtually Im split between the two, but im leaning towards Lucas on this one.
 

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
16,415
Nearly all projectiles telegraph themselves to no end. (Unless you're Falco)

In BBrawl, I feel that Ness is much better than Lucas.

Alot of things were never done to some of Lucas bad MU's too.
He still does around 35:65 with Marth, G&W, and Snake to say the least. I've litterally beaten more Marth's with my G&W than my Lucas in BBrawl...

Anyway, I'd like to see what AA or Thinkman has to say about this
Edit: BTW, please don't compare Lucas with Ness...
 

Lokee

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
194
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Edit: BTW, please don't compare Lucas with Ness..
Its a common thing, when characters have at least 2 or more moves in common there automatically treated as a group/clones to one another like the Spacies, and Lacario and Mewtwo and ......NOOOOO im just kidding

They play very differently.

Anyway the biggest burden was the Grab Release/ Infinities on the PK boys and Fox/Wolf which automatically makes them better overall. Now what to do about these bad MUs of which isnt Lucas' Snake?

Edit: I think its time for RESEARCH!!!!
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
My playtesting has suggested that Lucas is a beast in Bbrawl and very easily high tier. He doesn't seem so good as to need nerfing, but he does not seem to have any trouble winning at all and is generally massively improved. He is kinda simple, but I don't think that's a real disadvantage.

Regardless, Ness and Lucas seem to be bound in so many people's minds I think mostly because they're from the same series; it's kinda silly given how loosely connected their two games are. I think I should explain their "connection" just because people seem so caught up on it; if you want actual game content go below this explanation. This is the only time in the entire series you even see both on-screen at the same time:



I wish that Fourside were on the screen instead of Saturn Valley since that picture just has the back of Ness's head, but I can't be bothered to find the better picture. Yeah, that's just a picture of Ness in a theater; Ness himself never appears in Mother 3. Lucas's world is in the far future from Ness's, and Ness is a forgotten historical figure by everyone except Porky and Dr. Andronuts (Porky is only around because of time travel; he was Ness's obnoxious-turned-evil next door neighbor in EarthBound... and his abduction of Dr. Andronuts is why that person is around too). There's some weak evidence that suggests Lucas may be a descendant of Ness; Lucas and his twin brother Claus can use the same PSI that Ness could (which is apparently very, very rare even among PSI users), and Lucas's dad Flint has an old badge that he claims to have had since he was a kid... that turns out to be the Franklin Badge.

ANYWAY, while Lucas is more fun for me to talk about due to the way he was changed more, data on Ness would be more valuable. So, Ness first.
 
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