#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2010
- Messages
- 3,739
You shouldn't judge the backroom unless you're in it.
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and yeah i can agree with thisWow.
Just wow, brawl is dying for other reasons. You just want somebody to blame now.
Bring me 30 people that excel both in theorycraft and practice. But most importantly, that have an adequate competitive mindset. I can assure you, they are very rare.
G2g to work, will answer more tonight.
ive seen it, ****s pathetic LOLYou shouldn't judge the backroom unless you're in it.
How did you see it then?ive seen it, ****s pathetic LOL
I love this thread, and agree with most of this. I backed the "get rid of any non-voters" statement as well, which was generally ignored...If anything, the latest snafu of the Rule List 3.0 has demonstrated to us as a community that the Backroom as it stands now is broken. Currently, there are over one hundred members in the BR, but if you look at the voting that has taken place, to even state that less than half of them have participated in the voting would be a joke. For stages that dramatically effect the outcome of a match to be suddenly legal with only twenty votes of a hundred being counted, it's just too much to ask for me, as a member of this community.
There is a general disconnect with our community and the BR, and it needs to be resolved. I have thought this for a long time, but unfortunately there was never a moment to capture the wave of similar feelings that others would have. The BR as it is structured now is flawed, and must be replaced with new members and new rules to promote activity with in. Having top players dictate the course of the Meta Game seems as if it would be a great idea, until you realize that top players often do not post on the forum enough to represent their ideas or thoughts.
This isn't the first time that the BR has had issues where they had lack of votes, yet still pushed policy out. This has been a problem from the ledge grab limit to Meta Knight being allowed in tournament, to even the very first stage bans. Isn't it time to resolve these issues? At the moment, I have seriously lost faith in the ability of the BR to watch over the metagame of Brawl. Until this is resolved, I will simply run my tournaments with the rules that my state has voted on prior to all of this. However, we run the risk of our entire community becoming fragmented due to the failure at the hands of the BR.
If you feel the same, join the social group. Post in this thread, and keep the idea alive.
http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2321
Perhaps it is time that we put the onus of creating the rules for our community in the hands of an organization composed of Tournament Organizers. Choose the main TO from every state, and have them create the rules with a slight blend of the top players for every region. As it stands now, the BR is broken.
Thanks for the support guys. The Backroom only has power because we allow them to. We, as a community must set forth standards that we want for the Backroom, and demand that they happen.
That's why. They are the ones calling the shots. They are the ones who host the tournaments with the rules the BBR brings out. The BBR has no power right now. The most they can do is lightly nudge MLG, whose tournaments have left the community slightly disillusioned as a whole, I'm sad to say. They can influence newcoming TOs, but most people just make their own rules and stick with it. And it doesn't matter if the BBR says that PTAD or Luigi's Mansion is a legal counterpick. If almost no tournament allows them, then they are, effectively, banned.Read this. They don't have power. Never have, never will.
...and then there's this, part of why I support splitting **** up. Not everyone in the BBR knows enough about every aspect of smash. Nobody should be expected to. Top players have different know-how than TOs, and they both are different from the smash researchers. Why get everyone to know everything when you can get everyone good enough with specialization? After all, asking someone like ADHD to talk about stages is like asking M2K to talk about the MK-Diddy matchup-they may be top players, they may know a ****ton, but you can't expect them to know everything about each topic, and they have their own weaknesses. Of course, you can't use this as an exuse when you're in a niche of the BBR that is all about you.Wouldn't a simple one line rule be easier than completely remaking the BBR?
"if you do not vote you will be removed from the BBR"
...and this is the last thing that should change. Everyone posting in the backroom forums: terrible idea. Everyone being able to see what goes on in the backroom forums:Why does the general public have no control over who gets into the backroom?
I agree with the concept here...this
and wow i was actually about to write this thread bt you beat me to it. i wouldve flame bpc alot more though LOL
Trust me, the votes being in a majority for MK being banned but him not being banned because it isn't a super majority is irritating... but, that's how it goes. We've often commented no the MK-centric nature of top players and how most votes are self-serving in the past, but there's no real counter to it. Ankoku has at least forced people to post more than "that's dumb, it should be banned" when voting, so it's a start.Not really. If I wanted MK to be banned dishonestly, I'd support this stage list. There was an actual majority of votes [not an American majority, but other countries would have considered it to be one] to have MK banned. According to Xyro from when he was in the SBR, there were even enough votes in the SBR that were around this same stance. They then instead just considered to make talking about MK to be a total taboo on the forum. Then again, if your back room is composed of the top players, and judging by the current ranking list, at least 40% of them use MK in some capacity.
What I want, is for the SBR to be better than what it is. If only 20 people voted on a state, how many of them actually voted on Meta Knight? You know, when they voted for the ledge grab limit, only 40 people voted? This was back when they had at least a hundred members. The SBR is poorly constructed and maintained. It is a flawed system that either needs to be dismantled or severely upgraded.
Well, I'm one of the guys who has done that. If you don't think I am, well, you don't know what you're tlaking about.How many other policies and ideas where pushed through or destroyed because of the total apathy that has been demonstrated, and then rigorously defended by a few Backroom members? I always viewed the SBR as the shepherds of the Metagame. Players that were supposed to be active in attempting to make the game go in the right direction. Not anymore.
Eh, hate to break it to you but the average level of posts by a lot of the people there blow the average level outside out of the water. If we were transparent, the only people that would end up looking like actual dumb-dumbs would be the top players that simply can't articulate their points. Luckily we've been getting an influx of awesome players like DEHF who can impart some awesome knowledge well, but the "top players can't reason" is still pretty common.There's no transparency, because they don't want us to see the average level of posts there. They don't want us to see the inactivity and the misconceptions. Rather than increase the intelligence level there by allowing backroom members to become more versed in the game, and error-corrected, they instead hide in the shadows.
Really glad to hear this and it's 80% of the reason the 3.0 thread and this thread are so bad.We've since forced people to post reasoning in stage discussions, and the tone of the BBR has changed over time to question people based on their posts and to expect answers. Short, one-line posts from a top player that reek of bias are ridiculed, not agreed with. This is a huge change from the past, when a top player could say "that's gay, ban it" and someone might quote it and reply with "agreed".
This kid is a genius.So, to clarify. The BBR sees nothing wrong with being the laughingstock of the community, completely ignored by many regions and most nationals, and similar things? What is even the purpose of the BBR in such a case? Nobody pays any attention to it. Hence my suggestion of getting every top TO in the country together and making them form a room over the BBR. They have to OK it either way.
Maybe we should open our eyes and realize that we are trying to create a BALANCED stagelist, and you aren't balancing the stagelist giving people ridiculous advantages on stages and PROMOTING character switching.What is even the purpose of the BBR in such a case?
No what it does do is generally absolutely terrible.What it does do is generally good, but it doesn't do enough and doesn't do it in a timely manner.
I just don't understand what the point of the game is anymore."Until they make sense" is such a broad term -_-;
So this is why all these fail stages got in. It's not like there's much more to say about PTAD other than "it's gay". I guess you could extend that to say "it's gay and has too many hazards that derail the importance of player skill".We've since forced people to post reasoning in stage discussions, and the tone of the BBR has changed over time to question people based on their posts and to expect answers. Short, one-line posts from a top player that reek of bias are ridiculed, not agreed with. This is a huge change from the past, when a top player could say "that's gay, ban it" and someone might quote it and reply with "agreed".
I find that extremely hard to believe.Study the "new" (i.e. were unjustifiably removed in the past) stages. You'll find that playing on them does generate good gameplay when both players fully understand their options.
But should a stage be banned because you don't like it?So this is why all these fail stages got in. It's not like there's much more to say about PTAD other than "it's gay".
I think stages should be banned when they effect the outcome of a match to RIDICULOUS degrees.But should a stage be banned because you don't like it?
I don't like Yoshi's Island, it should be banned imo.
That is a valid argument, but "it's gay" isn't. Not liking a stage does not warrant banning it.I think stages should be banned when they effect the outcome of a match to RIDICULOUS degrees.
This is better suited for the ruleset discussion, not this thread here.I mean fighting is forced to be stopped multiple times, cars can kill you at ridiculous percents. Avoidable yes, but dieing at 40%? What if you are hit into one, should the opposing player be rewarded for a single hit THAT much? Are you really going tos ay "thats what you get for getting hit on Port Town Aero Dive"? Do you honestly, 100% truly believe that this stage is going to be about who is the better player? Instead of what character is better on this stage?
Lol...im completely aware that no stage is fair, but counterpicking should still leave the match in the hands of the players (IMO), at no point should the stage even have the ability to DRASTICALLy effect the outcome of a match (that had gone on without that hazard).That is a valid argument, but "it's gay" isn't. Not liking a stage does not warrant banning it.
This is better suited for the ruleset discussion, not this thread here.
To answer your question though:
No, it's not 100% about who is the better player - but most counterpicks aren't. In fact, even the starter stages are giving some characters advantages or disadvantages. There are no stages that are completely "fair".
And, personally, I don't see a reason to ban it yet. Should it prove to be tilting matches into an extreme direction - not only theorywise - I would be willing to agree that this stage is not suited as counterpick. There is no evidence to it yet, though, and the stage was only in counter/banned because people didn't like it and simply wanted to remove it because they would've had to learn how to play on it.
Final Destination.Instead of what character is better on this stage?
Stage striking.Final Destination.
No offense intended, Crow, but you main two completely inviable characters and are about as relevant to the metagame as I am at the moment: Which is to say, essentially not at all. Whether or not you stand by the stagelist is completely irrelevant to most posters.I stand by like 95% of the new ruleset. (There are two annoying tidbits, but I'll talk about that later). Once we finally got our rears in gear, the analysis that prevailed and ended on the final product was indeed that which was more logically sound in almost every case. When the BBR gets to work, and in the cases where a simple majority is allowed to prevail (or at least where a near 50/50 split is able be treated in a halfway manner), the system is generally good.
Study the "new" (i.e. were unjustifiably removed in the past) stages. You'll find that playing on them does generate good gameplay when both players fully understand their options. Of course, two players floundering around in unfamiliar territory will generate dumb games; it's no different from newbies trying out characters they've never seen before.
Final Destination is just as available for a CP as FD is and it probably of similar quality in terms of helping specific characters. For PTAD, if I played any character with terrible KO potential, then I'd probably look at the stage as a very good CP option. Conversely if I am a character that gets to live until 200% and has strong KO moves anyways, I'd probably want to avoid the stage like the plague.
im swaggin im surffinOh and while FD may be an amazing stage for a certain few characters, at no point in time does FD ever kill the character.
Is like saying: people don't kill people, guns do!Oh and while FD may be an amazing stage for a certain few characters, at no point in time does FD ever kill the character.
Obviously, when trying to balance brawl, we are not trying to make it real, or anything like real life. With that logic, almost EVERY STAGE should be allowed, because "hey, i threw you over there bro, that was me, not the stage". We cannot apply quotes like that to the game, and if we ARE GOING TO then like i said, almost every stage should be allowed.PTAD kills people the same way bullets do. Someone has to pull the trigger.
This:
Is like saying: people don't kill people, guns do!
If I push you in front of traffic, I'm held responsible for doing the pushing. Just like on PTAD, if you get thrown into cars, the opponent KOd you, not the stage.
I had not thought about this angle. I need to keep this in mind. As a falco player, this is always a concern to deal with.Also for the moaning about MK's planking and scrooging, Norfair and PTAD are two stages that virtually make planking/scrooging impossible/non-existent. Meanwhile Smashville gets a free pass even though just about every single tournament dispute over stalling has occurred there (Larry-Dojo at Genesis, Gnes-M2K at Winterfest).
Are you kidding me? Why not use that same logic to say "Hey let's use items in competitive play, it's the opponent KO'ing me with the items, so it's completely fair."PTAD kills people the same way bullets do. Someone has to pull the trigger.
Is like saying: people don't kill people, guns do!
If I push you in front of traffic, I'm held responsible for doing the pushing. Just like on PTAD, if you get thrown into cars, the opponent KOd you, not the stage.
Technically speaking when stages don't kill people, we are playing a different game. Almost every stage in Brawl has damaging hazards. That is the norm when looking purely at the available stage selection offered in the game. This perception is only changed because the EC got a lot of people to switch to stages that don't really change MU dynamics (except for Brinstar/Rainbow, which there is now a movement to ban on the EC).When stages are killing people, we are playing a different game. I do not think this is what we should strive for.
This is actually to an extent true. But I will humor you anyways and just note that items don't spawn equal distant from both players, giving one an unfair advantage in the event both are playing their positions perfectly prior to the spawn window. On PTAD, there is a set pattern and you should know which position you should be holding at all points, and more importantly for all but like 1 or 2 formations there are two safe zones so you don't even have to bother engaging the enemy if you don't want to. Easily enough, even though it falls short of really explaining things: items have some random properties, PTAD has zero random properties.Are you kidding me? Why not use that same logic to say "Hey let's use items in competitive play, it's the opponent KO'ing me with the items, so it's completely fair."
The problem is that the BBR could have alot of potential if it is put together properly, and thats something to strive forDont argue with BBR. They dont care nor listen to the public. just make your own rules for tournies and use them. bbr even said so in the thread.
Tournament Organizers have the power!Dont argue with BBR. They dont care nor listen to the public. just make your own rules for tournies and use them. bbr even said so in the thread.
Links can't help that Norfair is one of their best stages.some of the ppl who agree with this list and support it play ****ty characters and it doesn't matter where they play because chances are they're gonna lose lol if anything they want some kind of janky stage to try and tip it in their favor maybe
Stuff like ^ greatly amuses me.Dont argue with BBR. They dont care nor listen to the public. just make your own rules for tournies and use them. bbr even said so in the thread.