Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Shaya]

My goodness this red herring.

Stats are good for balancing. equipment abilities... not so much.
"I want my Charizard to have +100 Speed, which in turn means -whatever attack special" (or whatever it is).
Pretty solid.

Shame neither side cares for equipment in reality. I can't believe we're even having this conversation. Bless you Dre, did you plan this all along?

I think there's a noticeable scale difference to 81 sets per character (and however many total custom moves) vs the near-infinite dimensions available through equipment. This scale difference does impact logistics.

I think they both get the point, "grasping at straws" may be a way to put it.

 

[Gords]

Neither of you got Attila's point, in fact you're just providing further example

enlighten us then, since it appears to me Attila doesnt even understand the difference in logistics between customs and equipment

 

[Splice]

He doesn't even need to, to make his point.
To some of us, the logistics of customs is an issue, but this is dismissed entirely.
The same people that are dismissing the logistics of customs are citing logistics as a reason we can't have equipment.
It's funny eh?

Also Shaya it's mad dumb trying to throw cool debater power terms into this, I could call out Luco and Paz's responses as red herrings for only focusing on one part of what Attila said (bad decision to say you can standardise equipment) rather than what his actual point was. It's not actually helping progress the discussion to say "My goodness this red herring", all it does is make me picture you tipping a fedora - whilst remaining moderately attractive, I should add.

 

[Shaya]

It just seems to me that out of no where someone's given you a circular argument to tout and you're doing the best you can to abuse it.
Sorry I wanted to not just say "cancer", even if that's how I feel about the endeavor.

I don't think we deny logistics being something that holds Customs back. But it is surmountable. I thought we stopped talking about logistics because we've shifted towards it's merits? Or more so, that's what we were talking about, but whatever you need to do to deflect the discussion for cancer.

And you could standardise equipment, it would be a mere fraction of what could be possibly achieved though. Unlike custom presets.


Now let's just continue the
"the logistics for this make it impossible"
"okay here's a solution being used across the world + at the world's largest fighting game tournament without "logistical" drama"
"..." (this is a representation of the silence of no response + stealth shift of the subject to something else)
"omg look at this custom special, it did something STUPID"
"..." (this is a representation of the face palming by everyone with any cool debating knowledge)
"okay okay, I don't like this!!!!!!!!!!!"
"alright, I understand, but shouldn't it be best for everyone if things are given a chance to develop? Enough people want it, and it hasn't been shown to hurt the consistency of results; Evo is 4 months away, there will be a large shift in opinion and at least the opportunity for data to correlate to discussion. Let's take away the FEELS involved with this"
"NO, THAT IS TOTALLY UNREASONABLE"
"..." (people thinking "god bless you cancer")
"HURRR I KNOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT EQUIPMENT, IT SHOULD BE LEGAL IF CUSTOMS ARE LEGAL; hahaha you cannot win dirty fedora tipper"
-> Go back to the top.

"The Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion Thread" cycle.

 

[Dre89]

My goodness this red herring.

Stats are good for balancing. equipment abilities... not so much.
"I want my Charizard to have +100 Speed, which in turn means -whatever attack special" (or whatever it is).
Pretty solid.

Shame neither side cares for equipment in reality. I can't believe we're even having this conversation. Bless you Dre, did you plan this all along?

I think there's a noticeable scale difference to 81 sets per character (and however many total custom moves) vs the near-infinite dimensions available through equipment. This scale difference does impact logistics.

I think they both get the point, "grasping at straws" may be a way to put it.

I had absolutely nothing to do with equipment being brought up, so I have no idea why you'd try put that on me.

Also I don't see what is wrong with people arguing over customs. It's a discussion thread, when people disagree that's what is bound to happen.

I honestly don't understand how you expected this thread to turn out. Did you just expect people to list their argument once, and then one side suddenly just concedes and agrees with the other side without any rebuttal? How did you envision this thread playing out without people arguing over a controversial topic for multiple pages?

 

[Jamwa]

Just because every combination of equipment isnt allowed, why can't we add a few to add variety and further balance the game?

 

[Bijou]

I would be more comfortable playing customs mode if equipment was allowed. There would be plenty of solutions to overcome the issues people are bringing up. I still think the randomness of the equipment drops is irrelevant because good players will commit to getting pieces that they want anyway.

In my mind, playing Smash 4 with customs and no equipment would be like playing competitive Pokemon and allowing players to use any move they want, but banning all held items, abilities and stats training.

 

[Dre89]

I can respect the equipment argument that anti customs people are using, I think it's a good point.

However, I do think that the logistical obstacles that equipment provides are on another level to customs. Just like custom logistics is on another level to the logistics of simply unlocking characters and stages. So I don't think you can really say pro customs are being hypocritical when they cite logistics as a reason to ban equipment, because equipment is on another level of difficulty.

 

[Luco]

"good players getting the equipment they want" - there's more to it than just that. The equipment stat changes can range up to the 90's either way, as well as their type and the characters that can use them. This is more than just simple farming. It's on another level to that completely.

And just because a select few can get the custom equipment they want doesn't mean we all can. Like, for it to be standardised to the point where it's fair, EVERY competitive player would have to get the exact same customs with the exact same stats and effects. And as far as I know, custom equipment doesn't get transferred across wii U's (unless maybe through miis? Actually maybe they could. But that would be irrelevant because you can only transfer 10 'sets' of custom equipment with that insane amount of variability, which is what I believe Shaya was talking about)

As has been mentioned, I feel as if this is on another level. But whatevs.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well this thread has inspired me, looks like alongside Item Standard Play, I'll have to make Equipment Standard Play. I have no idea how I'll make it work yet, but I'm gonna figure it out and it'll be epic.

Anyways, I'm not an Australian so you can feel free to ignore my thoughts on things since I will not likely be playing in AUS that often for some strange reason, but I figured I could give some insight on customs since I ran so much with em on online.

First up, DON'T RUN CUSTOM ONLINE. For real, the fact that Hypest still runs customs online while stating they are easy to catch after live streaming a match with TWO TOs watching where one person used customs is atrocious. (For those who don't know, I'm no longer WITH Hypest for many reasons, their inability to accept those issues online being one of them. Can't personally recommend their events anymore which makes me sad )

Now hows about for live events? SPOILER ALERT a new article series is going to be coming to Smashboards too, talking about how to start a local scene from the ground up with minimal things to work with. I intend to prove pretty much anyone with a bit of time, one TV, and one console (something every Smash player should have) can host a tournament. Those are the minimal supplies some players have, not everyone is close to a scene to get much help but MAYBE they get lucky and one other guy has a console to help.

Here is where I run into an issue with customs. Without outside help, I have had one heck of a hard time unlocking them. Maybe RNGesus just hates me, but I've put in weeks of time into unlocking customs and gotten barely anything out of it. This makes it seriously difficult to not only practice with the movesets so I can use them properly, but to practice against them. Many people in events have been raving about the Kong Cyclone or his wind punch (can't remember the name) or Villager's tree that can trip. Now I've been told Kong Cyclone especially can be punished, but how can I learn to punish it properly if I lack a tool to practice with? Some moves can go over the tripping tree and not slip you up (while those can get punished kinda bad honestly, they could seriously help you manage to punish Villager). Now the only way I figured this out was grinding several modes for two days to even be able to get the move to try and learn anything about it.

While customs can bring a cool variety to events, have badass combos, and in general MAYBE make a few more characters viable, they are a serious barrier for new people entering the scene which isn't a good thing to me. Maybe the logistics of Customs are overcomable in larger scenes, but how about those Small locals where players get their start? They may not even know someone close with a 3DS to even load customs (I don't even have one, unless someone drives several hours here) and when they feel inspired to go out and maybe make the several hour drive to go to that regional or anything else they'll find themselves completely unprepared to deal with the new ruleset, probably lose because they have no experience with customs at all, and feel REALLY turned off to traveling in the future and feel shut out from the scene at large. As it stands right now I'll have to run with customs off basically because I can't manage to get them here and have no one to help, and I bet I'm not the only one in that position.

Now if Nintendo made it way easier to get customs we could talk, even something as simple as letting them be bought with coins in game could make it easy enough for an average player to grab them. But right now I'm not sure I can personally support customs being on especially since I can't reasonably run them myself and know others can't either.

 

[Splice]

@ Luco A logistics issue of any size is worth discussing, not dismissing, from customs to equipment it is a legit concern. Capps' post helps support that.
Saying that it's on another level doesn't mean much; yeah, it's harder to unlock all equipment than all customs. But this doesn't mean they are at a point where they can be overlooked. Who is to say at what point a ruleset is too liberal for it's own good or needs to be standardised and such? For example, while seguing to a different point, Luco you bring up a good point about the stats not being identical across equipment unlocks but since the negative stats rise with the positive stats some people may believe the stat variance on items is negligible. I'm not sure if there would really be any sweetspots of +stat vs. -stat that would be of huge impact although I won't lie it would change the results of some close games.
Again the argument is up in the air based on how much we can tolerate and how much we can do to standardise things further, personally as an individual member I would tolerate that stat differences on equipment for the extra ways I can innovate my character to deal with problems

I agree with your post Capps, shame about Hypest :E

 

[Luco]

@ Luco A logistics issue of any size is worth discussing, not dismissing, from customs to equipment it is a legit concern. Capps' post helps support that.
Saying that it's on another level doesn't mean much; yeah, it's harder to unlock all equipment than all customs. But this doesn't mean they are at a point where they can be overlooked. Who is to say at what point a ruleset is too liberal for it's own good or needs to be standardised and such? For example, while seguing to a different point, Luco you bring up a good point about the stats not being identical across equipment unlocks but since the negative stats rise with the positive stats some people may believe the stat variance on items is negligible. I'm not sure if there would really be any sweetspots of +stat vs. -stat that would be of huge impact although I won't lie it would change the results of some close games.
Again the argument is up in the air based on how much we can tolerate and how much we can do to standardise things further, personally as an individual member I would tolerate that stat differences on equipment for the extra ways I can innovate my character to deal with problems

I agree with your post Capps, shame about Hypest :E

Very fair.

I would say, however, that the time and effort invested into unlocking custom equipment is different from custom moves in a very tangible way - that being that with custom moves, you simply require one player to have everything unlocked. This can't be achieved with custom equipment, because on any given character you can only have 10 sets. If the average player turns away at customs, then would equipment be too much? Alas, I might not be able to judge.

On the other hand, It's also a fair point to raise that the effort invested into customs purely to practice with them is another effort in themselves. At first my view of customs was "if you don't have the moves it's okay because someone else will." But in terms of practicing with moves you want/want to work against, this might be a tad harder.

In my case, I dedicated my time to using the HOME button method to get as many custom moves as possible consistently, changing between characters whenever I unlocked a move or a few (I didn't stay on the one character until I completed them, I usually alternated between 2 or 3 characters each classic run to have a bit more fun/variety with it). I think the process in total probably took me about a week, though I was quite busy that week and I had the vast majority of the customs after 4 or 5 days, it just took me a little while to acquire the last few.

Hmm, I'll think on it. =)

 

[Attila_]

So then, after all that....

The whole reason I brought the equipment argument up was for everyone to admit that 'just because something brings variability to the game, doesn't mean it should be included competitively'.

Real simple.

Equipment brings so much to the game, but no one wants it legal. Not even certain types of equipment or equipment combinations are being considered. And the main reason? Because we just don't like them. They mess with things too much. The change things too much and we're uncomfortable with that.

Logistics? Seriously, that's bull****. Customs are just as bad.

Customs don't balance the game as much as equipment could, but they do bring about a jankiness that a lot of us are uncomfortable with. Saying that they bring variety or whatever is garbage; that's not even something you want. If it was, you'd rally for equipment. Aside from broken-ass combos and free kill moves, I really don't see what customs have to offer. That variety argument really holds no water here.

 

[Pazx]

Certain types of equipment are actually being pushed for (smooth lander etc) but the hassle of equipment is not something I'm interested in dealing with. We've already stated the logistical issue for equipment is infinity times larger than for custom moves, so you can't write it off with "customs are just as bad".

I'm not sure why we're still discussing this when it's clear the loudest voice in Melbourne is very conservative and not open to change.

 

[Jamwa]

We've already stated the logistical issue for equipment is infinity times larger than for custom moves, so you can't write it off with "customs are just as bad".

logistics, for the like 70th time since page 31, is not a reason for customs/equipment to be banned.
you know its kinda sad to have to reply to a post with something that was literally just posted but lesko jamwa mad alley-oop inc

Customs don't balance the game as much as equipment could, but they do bring about a jankiness that a lot of us are uncomfortable with. Saying that they bring variety or whatever is garbage; that's not even something you want. If it was, you'd rally for equipment. Aside from broken-*** combos and free kill moves, I really don't see what customs have to offer. That variety argument really holds no water here.

i pressed a lot of buttons in the text editor to make the main points stand out, hopefully this helps.

 

[Snoc]

i pressed a lot of buttons in the text editor to make the main points stand out, hopefully this helps.

press R for "rekt"

 

[Pazx]

@ Jamwa If there was no logistical problem regarding equipment and I enjoyed equipment on more than equipment off and thought it was better for the game I'd rally for equipment. There is a significant logistical problem regarding equipment. I will not rally for equipment.

There is no logistical problem regarding custom moves. I enjoy custom moves on more than I enjoy custom moves off and I think it is better for the game. I will rally for custom moves. Attila is making assumptions that are not correct.

press R for "rekt"

Press 1 if you feel bad for Pazx

 

[Jamwa]

If ... I enjoyed equipment on more than equipment off and thought it was better for the game I'd rally for equipment.

so we should have customs based on your unfounded opinion that it's better for the game?

lmao why am i even responding this is so dumb

 

[Pazx]

so we should have customs off based on your unfounded opinion that it's better for the game?

lmao why am i even responding this is so dumb

edit: this is directed at whoever

 

[Bijou]

There are plenty of logistical problems regarding custom moves. Most of which SmashCapps already pointed out in his magnificent post above. And all of the ones he mentioned are still a problem that needs to be overcome.

It's just that a lot of people are willing to work through them for the sake of having customs moves be part of the ruleset.

Equally, there are logistical problems with Equipment too. Perhaps a little harder to deal with than customs? Sure. But that doesn't mean you should write them off without considering options on how these problems could be overcome.

 

[Jamwa]

so we should have customs off based on your unfounded opinion that it's better for the game?

I am now all for customs

DKALLDAY

i personally hold the position that customs should be introduced to sm4sh, but i noticed your post treated personal opinion as fact so thought i'd point that out and also say that the contention of your post had already been addressed

im trying to fight for customs and equipment, but i feel a large majority of people in this thread are not representing the cause legitimately and are reducing the chance of my sight coming true for smash 4. : [

so i beg you, please stop arguing for customs, you're only making it worse for everyone

 

[Shaya]

Perhaps a little harder to deal with than customs? Sure. But that doesn't mean you should write them off without considering options on how these problems could be overcome.

What solutions are you proposing?
The solution we have for customs is 'there' and is already being adopted. Some places not having a single person able to make those sets are in a justifiably "bad" spot. There are some kind people out there who'll let you send in your cartridges to unlock all custom specials for free (at least in the US). If my dear friends in Melbourne are out of luck in this regard we can send a contingent from those with better luck and the grace of the grace of lord, Sakurai and share some of our custom presets with you so you can reengage the metagame. Alternatively you could use the upwards of 200 to 500 K gold you have farmed up on your WiiUs and play a lot of [preferably multiplayer, it teaches you TEAM SPACING] Trophy Rush, not only is it the best thing to ever brace Smash Bros, it gives you a lot of custom specials and you can mess around with the RNG for your benefit (apparently) so you can play whoever you want while unlocking specials for others.

There is no logistical problem regarding custom moves
Press 1 if you feel bad for Pazx the people reading this

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 111111111

 

[Bijou]

What solutions are you proposing?

I would say that it should be up to the individual players to supply the equipment loadouts that they want to use. But if there are any other options to make things more viable then they're worth discussing too.

As people have mentioned, it's fine that you're able to supply customs on consoles for everyone, but unless people have them all unlocked themselves then they have no means to practice. As such, making it mandatory to supply your own characters is the easiest option I see and would also therefore encourage players to have everything unlocked themselves.

This method isn't too hard. There are many other competitive game series that require much more preparation from players and they still run fine. Pokemon for example again - players need to supply their own teams. You can't just pick from a preselected roster. And I would argue that Pokemon is many times harder to prepare a team for than it would be to make your character in Smash 4.

But again, at the bare minimum you could start by only including equipment that is unlocked through challenges. If that was the case, it would be much easier to provide a uniformed approach to equipment as you would be able to have the same pieces on each console.

No doubt there are many more options besides the ones I've suggested off the top of my head too. If people wanted to actually proactively discuss other methods instead of just saying it was too hard I think we'd be able to work something out.

 

[Jamwa]

This probably isn't a thing, but V had her smash 4 save file contained on a usb drive when she came over but forgot it so we had to play with no save

is it not possible to copy this save file onto other usbs and distribute customs/equipment/characters via this method or are save files particular to each wii u or something? like this is so obvious it's probably already been tried but i haven't read anything about it so gotta ask lol

 

[Bijou]

This probably isn't a thing, but V had her smash 4 save file contained on a usb drive when she came over but forgot it so we had to play with no save

is it not possible to copy this save file onto other usbs and distribute customs/equipment/characters via this method or are save files particular to each wii u or something? like this is so obvious it's probably already been tried but i haven't read anything about it so gotta ask lol

I'm not sure if that method is possible, but I applaud you for suggesting something potentially viable : )
This is what this discussion needs more of.

 

[Luco]

But again, at the bare minimum you could start by only including equipment that is unlocked through challenges. If that was the case, it would be much easier to provide a uniformed approach to equipment as you would be able to have the same pieces on each console.

I have no problem with this, actually. If people wanted to run that in tournaments, I don't think I'd complain. It's not like there's a massive amount of set equipment, meaning there's still a way to prepare, and it can be standardised.

 

[Shaya]

Unique data encryption for each wiiu something something.

 

[LuxShadow1]

Equipment will never become standard in tournaments. Customs however, I'm all for it.

 

[Splice]

I don't think customs will ever sustain in tournament. I support equipment.

 

[Dekar289]

http://gfycat.com/UnripeElasticFirecrest
can we remove all the CPs yet

 

[Pazx]

http://gfycat.com/KaleidoscopicAlienatedFoal
please ban this broken stage

 

[Dekar289]

LOL wtf that's worrying

 

[Luco]

My favourite one so far is this (the REALLY funny bit is actually at :58) :

 

[Pazx]

Yeah but Wuhu island is a good stage and that glitch can only be performed under very strict circumstances

we should ban ness's dthrow in general it's clearly borked

 

[dean.]

Don't worry Dave I'm working on it.

we should ban ness's dthrow in general it's clearly borked

I'm OK with this.

 

[Luco]

Yeah but Wuhu island is a good stage and that glitch can only be performed under very strict circumstances

we should ban ness's dthrow in general it's clearly borked

Don't get me wrong I absolutely love the stage and think that it's pretty fine really.

 

[Splice]

http://gfycat.com/UnripeElasticFirecrest
can we remove all the CPs yet

Look at Halberd giving all characters more options to bait idiots with, a true asset in any rough matchup.

btw worst thing about halberd is you can fall through the middle of it as it transforms
For the umpteenth time - this game is just poorly made hey. You'd think they'd nail platform collision on the 4th game in a series where things collide with platforms, but no, it's worse than ever

 

[LiteralGrill]

Since the subject is kinda there, what is the stagelist looking like is Australia right now? Kinda curious with how it compares to the US.

 

[Pazx]

Since the subject is kinda there, what is the stagelist looking like is Australia right now? Kinda curious with how it compares to the US.

We have a slight divide. Personally, I prefer the Sydney stagelist, but the Melbourne scene is slightly bigger and is about to host BAM 7. Someone correct me if I've got anything wrong. Canberra runs the Sydney stage list + Skyloft.

Melbourne's paleo-conservative ruleset (1 ban):

Starters:
BF
SV
T&C

Counterpicks:
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza

Sydney's glaringly obvious omission of Skyloft and Wuhu Island (2 bans):

Starters:
BF
SV
T&C
FD
Lylat

Counterpicks:
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64

 

[Attila_]

In the realm of diets, paleo isn't even close to conservative. In fact, it's about as wacky as you can get.

You'd be much better off labelling the Melbourne stage list as IIFYM or 5:2.