Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Splice]

I want to play the game at it's best with the most people being pleased with it, rather than use a ruleset the majority disagrees with just to stick with your principle of choosing the natural option (not even natural since customs unlocked but w/e).
We actually can dictate how we want to play the game and we don't have to meet a perfect conclusion to do this. We can make minor improvements

You're throwing arbitrary around like a dirty word when you're just telling people - and in effect also the sum of the community - off for making decisions.

 

[Luco]

You stick with customs, because like I've said above customs don't have to improve gameplay to be legal, they just have to be competitive. The exception would be if the entire community that the decision affects is anti-customs. But in a divided community you go with customs because it's the non-arbitrary option.

I think what he means by that example is if using customs made the game less competitive but more diverse. I could have taken that wrong, though.

 

[Dre89]

I think what he means by that example is if using customs made the game less competitive but more diverse. I could have taken that wrong, though.

What if Rosalina made the game less competitve but more diverse, would she be banned on that logic?

 

[Attila_]

You stance assumes that customs are competitive. I disagree. So do many people. Please don't talk about the competitve nature of

Wall of text incoming



2 minutes items is not true competitive Smash because it's not competitive. That's my point, we deviate from that to make it competitive, but we don't need to remove things that are perfectly competitive.

Something people need to remember is that customs are by default part of the game. We're not adding them when we want to use them, we're removing them when we don't. Removing customs is like removing a perfectly competitve stage like Town and City just because it's new. With stages you need to justify a ban by demonstrating that it's not competitive, I don't see why customs should be different.

Customs don't need to improve gameplay to justify their inclusion, they just have to be competitive. Anything that is a part of the game should be assumed legal regardless of whether it improves gameplay, unless it's not competitve. Newcomers don't have to prove that they make the game better to justify being legalised. If Smash games had customs from the beginning, the customs of Smash4 would have no issue staying legal.

And gameplay-wise there's nothing inherently wrong with the custom moves themselves. No character would get banned if any custom move happened to be a default instead.

So yes you and I favour different decisions. The difference is I'm not being arbitrary. I'm not arbitrarily removing a perfectly fine gameplay element.

You stance assumes that customs are competitive. I disagree. So do many people. Please don't talk about the competitve nature of customs like it is fact. Because it isn't.

I think you miss the whole point here.

It's not about 'would X character be banned' but rather, 'do custom moves contribute to a healthy, competitive metagame'. The answer here isn't so clear cut. And it's largely open to opinion. You're obviously entitled to yours, but don't assume that there's any facts here.

 

[Venks]

Just thought I'd mention we've started using customs here at my scene in the US. It seems more and more scenes are going this way to get ready for EVO. From our tournaments thus far we're getting the exact same players in Top 8. The only real difference I've noticed between our matches with and without customs is some players occasionally drop stocks to set ups they didn't know existed with customs.

 

[Luco]

What if Rosalina made the game less competitve but more diverse, would she be banned on that logic?

To be fair... Probably, yes. Considering Meta Knight in Brawl technically made the game more diverse but also made it very very difficult to play as a serious competitive game for many people, and in the end it probably would have been a good idea to ban him.

 

[Dre89]

You stance assumes that customs are competitive. I disagree. So do many people. Please don't talk about the competitve nature of


You stance assumes that customs are competitive. I disagree. So do many people. Please don't talk about the competitve nature of customs like it is fact. Because it isn't.

I think you miss the whole point here.

It's not about 'would X character be banned' but rather, 'do custom moves contribute to a healthy, competitive metagame'. The answer here isn't so clear cut. And it's largely open to opinion. You're obviously entitled to yours, but don't assume that there's any facts here.

No, they don't have to contribute to a 'healthy, competitive metagame' as in they don't have to make the game better. Many characters over the years have made the meta less healthy but they didn't get banned, or only got banned temporarily.

The question is 'do customs make the game non-competitive'. If the answer is no, they should be legal because they are a part of the game. Just like if a character doesn't render the game non-competitive they're legal by default. We don't see if every newcomer makes the meta better, we just see if they're not broken.

You say it's not clear cut whether customs are competitive or not. Tell me which characters would be banned if a certain custom of theirs was their default rather than a custom. If you can't think of any, then customs are clearly fine because none of the moves render the game non-competitive.

 

[M]

NSW has been playing with customs for some time now, I've seen and played against just about every type of set now and the only moves that have even slightly come across as 'non competitive' (which is a stupid term, if you ask me) would be a couple of Villager's. And that's only the case if they are used together.

 

[Jamwa]

customs are clearly fine because none of the moves render the game non-competitive.

this is so binary lmao

 

[Timic83]

Customs shouldn't even be up for discussion until save files can be transferred and all customs can be easily unlocked/hacked. As it stands, the community should not suck Nintendo's **** a drop of saliva more than necessary in 3DS/Smash43DS sales. Customs off until Wii U Homebrew Channel.

 

[earla]

yeeeeeeh .. http://gfycat.com/JitteryDarlingDonkey

 

[Gords]

what is your point earl

 

[Pazx]

Are we posting bad cherry picked gfycats that are not at all constructive to the discussion at hand? https://gfycat.com/BronzeOddAnole

 

[Shaya]

Rosalina is allowed to be broken.
She does it by default.

Also anything that makes Doc not trash is probably not too bad,

 

[Timic83]

Before a customs match starts, should one be allowed to go into a practice game/button check to see what customs the enemy is using and show what you are?

Also, if you've unlocked everything on your Wii U (through a save hack of some sort), can you easily make a non-OSCMP setup, without using a 3DS at all? The fact that this might force some custom players not to be able to use their favorite movesets (without owning a 3DS, Smash 3DS and being forced to grind like the damn Pokemon scene) is worrying to me.

Mii size differences worry me even more, sure each Wii U could have a smallest+skinniest/biggest+fattest combination but there's so much nuance to the Mii slider that some players might want to use specific Mii size combos, and the Mii Channel would take a while (again, some people don't own 3DS + Smash 3DS to take their specific Miis).

But honestly this doesn't sound like that bad an idea if it can all be done on Wii U's. I would like to point out I own a 3DS with Smash 3DS I just would really rather not set the bar for players who want to use a wacky moveset/crazily proportioned Mii to $400.

My 2c, community should pressure Nintendo try and make them release a Wii U update to let us transfer Save Data to SD to make this a ****ton easier (how is this not an option on the console anyway? Wii let you do it), yes Mewtwo took 20hr to unlock in Melee but you could just transfer the save, and even Brawl had hacked saves to put on a console bypassing Brawl's stupid Wii save lockout thing.

Paletuna (BUY SAKURAIS GAME TODAY, 70% ANIME QUOTA FOR SMASH 5) should never be good in any circumstance so that's a big strike against customs

 

[Milun]

I will always be an advocate for more options in Smash. More legal stages, more legal rules, etc, etc. I've been playing Smash 4 on my 3DS almost every time I've taken a trainride since the game came out, and while I really, really like the idea of customs I can say this: I've still only unlocked about 80%. And I only play Smash Run / Classic mode.

We need to focus on finding an easy exploit for this maybe. Like the CD factory in Brawl.

 

[earla]

ya more coins

 

[Timic83]

inb4 nintendo releases "unlock all customs" dlc for $20 and people will defend buying it

 

[Luco]

I used the 'HOME' button method to get all of my customs.

 

[earla]

can anyone honestly see japan EVER legalizing customs? they're conservative as ***.

without their support.. americans discontinue competing with them. i'd be very surprised.

 

[Gords]

Before a customs match starts, should one be allowed to go into a practice game/button check to see what customs the enemy is using and show what you are?
Should one be allowed to go into a practice games against a default Shulk just to see what his different monado arts do or against default Pac-Man just to see what his different fruit do? No, one should already know what the characters can do. It is the same with customs, you have been given there build number so you know what moves they have equipped its your responsibility to know what these moves are and how they work. at most I would say that a player can ask what move x number refers to, but even that is not necessary.

Also, if you've unlocked everything on your Wii U (through a save hack of some sort), can you easily make a non-OSCMP setup, without using a 3DS at all? Yes, and there is now an easy method discovered to unlock everything on the WiiU (see below)
The fact that this might force some custom players not to be able to use their favorite movesets (without owning a 3DS, Smash 3DS and being forced to grind like the damn Pokemon scene) is worrying to me.
Evo will only allow the movesets set out in the OSCMP as it stands on March 27th i believe due to the restriction they will have with setups not being allowed to have data added to them. however keep in mind that these sets are currently considered the most popular and the best sets for each character, and there should be a set which is extremely close to the one a player would want to use. Local tournaments should have a 3ds for players to build and port over any set they want, which is how i run the Sydney WiiU events.

Mii size differences worry me even more, sure each Wii U could have a smallest+skinniest/biggest+fattest combination but there's so much nuance to the Mii slider that some players might want to use specific Mii size combos, and the Mii Channel would take a while (again, some people don't own 3DS + Smash 3DS to take their specific Miis).
from what i can gather its not beneficial to have anything else other than short fat or short thin for the best stats. forcing these options is actually a good thing and seems to be ok with the mii users since that is what they play

But honestly this doesn't sound like that bad an idea if it can all be done on Wii U's. I would like to point out I own a 3DS with Smash 3DS I just would really rather not set the bar for players who want to use a wacky moveset/crazily proportioned Mii to $400.
a Tournament only requires one 3ds with everything unlocked to run customs, there is no need for a player that doesnt own a copy of Smash 3ds or a 3ds to purchase them just to play their build. they can either take there WiiU to a tournament where they will have the builds loaded on for them or use the method below to unlock customs on their own WiiU

My 2c, community should pressure Nintendo try and make them release a Wii U update to let us transfer Save Data to SD to make this a ****ton easier (how is this not an option on the console anyway? Wii let you do it), yes Mewtwo took 20hr to unlock in Melee but you could just transfer the save, and even Brawl had hacked saves to put on a console bypassing Brawl's stupid Wii save lockout thing.

Paletuna (BUY SAKURAIS GAME TODAY, 70% ANIME QUOTA FOR SMASH 5) should never be good in any circumstance so that's a big strike against customs

We need to focus on finding an easy exploit for this maybe. Like the CD factory in Brawl.

easy method already found. may take a while but doesnt require you to be at the console.
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2x6w8a/completely_automatic_custom_farming_method_found/
I am running this while i am asleep and using the Mayflash GC adapter (the one that plugs into the wiimote) since it also has a turbo and an autofire function. I like the auto fire function since i dont need to tape any buttons down on my GC controller.

 

[Pazx]

@ Gords I'll address Miis again in a bit but it seems one quarter height is the best height for all three miis, will be finalised soon. For Brawler (which only has like 3 movesets) we'd be looking at short/thin and one quarter/thin as the "essential" heights.

Also don't forget methods like idling smash tour, crazy orders, classic, home button, etc for customs.

REMINDER: each character board has until the 17th to submit their ten custom sets. These will be the sets available at Evo and most likely all tournaments until later in the year. Try out custom moves, go to your character boards, discuss.

 

[Attila_]

Are we posting bad cherry picked gfycats that are not at all constructive to the discussion at hand? https://gfycat.com/BronzeOddAnole

Not sure what the point of positing this was/

Earl posted an example of a custom move ruining a game. You posted an example of the rage mechanic being dumb. Unfortunately, we can't turn of rage, unless we decide to play stamina/coin mode. But turning off customs is something we do have control over.

 

[Shaya]

Ruining a game?

A lot of that strength comes from rage for one in that gif. He still had another stock and was ahead already. That player made a critical error. Just like that Yoshi did against Rosalina.

Both didn't respect something. There are tons of recoveries that could kill you down there, and you have to "fall" into it to get that final hitbox anyway, as the move is surrounded by a windbox otherwise that normally denies the final strong hit.

Knowledge Attila.
It's too hard.

However, a point to note is that there are a lot of recovery moves that get turned into super-strong kill moves with customs. Diddy and Brawler are pretty notable. I don't know what to think about that, but they tend to be the best choice for a player to take, the meta that will come from this can be drastically different to customs-off in the long run (people dying at 60% being a commonality if they're near a ledge).
Can't say I think it's a completely bad thing. I think it pushes people into having to have a secondary or multiple characters under their belt. This is something as a Smash player I've never actually wanted/liked. I just wanted to play Marth, I still just wanted to play Marth. With customs off I can just play ZSS I'm pretty sure. But heck, I don't know when it comes to customs on though.

 

[Bijou]

To all of you that are arguing that customs should be in the game, I don't see any of you supporting equipment as well.

They don't have to make the game better, they just have to 'not make the game uncompetitive' right? All of the equipment stats are + something and - something. Therefore they are not uncompetitive.

Also it will make low tier characters better, because you can put equipment on the characters to alter the way they play. Would Dr. Mario be better with a bit less power and more speed? Probably.

Are there too many equipment combinations to learn though? Don't worry, it's part of the game. Good players can adapt to equipment and still win.

Basically what I'm saying is that most of all the arguments pro-customs players are supplying also apply to equipment. Therefore if you have customs on, by the same token, you have to also accept equipment.

Thoughts?

 

[Shaya]

Equipment, unlike Specials are random in stats and feasibly 'broken' in abilities, especially when they alter base/universal mechanics. Double your power shielding window three times? Healing every few seconds no matter what? 25% chance to critical strike dealing 4x as much damage or more (i.e. one shot people)?

That in itself shouldn't be an issue if everyone had access to it, but then there's the issue of one set for it being different to another set although 'everything else' is the same. Therein lacks control/standardisation for things by default.

But heck, certain things you don't see the true debaters bring up, yet half or more of the counter-argument usually encircles over it. We all know we define how this game is competitive. In fact equipment would be exceedingly competitive, heck even extremely fun. The amount of time I spent with Ricky recently making a perfect custom equipment set for a challenge was great, using it was great, I would love to see other people's ideas/combinations in beating that set.

We don't say "this game needs customs, look at diddy" or "it isn't uncompetitive [whatever that means] hence its ok". The argument is that it's a metagame not so far away from our own which has not been given ample opportunity. You can slippery slope "items" or "equipment" or "****ed up stages" but who gives a **** about 1% of the opinion here (equipment is feasibly more)? The outlier? The issue that has been almost universally accepted by all parties? That's going backwards.
Ironically I'd like to bring up history, but that is so it isn't repeated. MK Banned Meta never came to exist with 50% or more of people wanting him banned because no one was willing to run tournaments for it. Players were obstinate enough to refuse supporting them, which was enough blackmail to kill any chance of it ever happening. 100% of the "remaining" scene willing to play with MK legal, even if begrudgingly, vs 65-50% of the scene remaining with the rest being cancerous until they got their way.

The cancer is going to win either way, so I guess the question is what's the point arguing? lol
The fact that the two sides are composed of different groups of people (to those pro/anti MK) are interesting, to say the least.

At this stage I'm preferring customs off, but that's because I don't have a WiiU to do my own advancing (90% of my time in this game if not more has been customs off thanks to USA/Apex). I'll dislike custom on tournaments ever so slightly more than customs off, likely forever. But I'm not going to be petty about it. I'm not going to be part of the cancer that our comrades had to deal with for 4-5 years.
In the long run, it could be better. I do like playing Falco. But I don't know, neither does anyone else. Anecdotal 'stupid' gifs approach isn't convincing the other side while only galvanizing the fallacy for the other.

P.S. What's not cancer?
Seeing this golden, first TIME EVER opportunity for a different 'meta' to have a chance to prove itself leading up to Evo. Embracing things and also doing your best to abuse things yourself.
Talk about this meta as if it's something important rather than disgust.

 

[Gords]

Not sure what the point of positing this was/

Earl posted an example of a custom move ruining a game. You posted an example of the rage mechanic being dumb. Unfortunately, we can't turn of rage, unless we decide to play stamina/coin mode. But turning off customs is something we do have control over.

earl posted an example of the rage mechanic being dumb not a custom being dumb. pazx posted an example of a raged default aerial being bumb. again what is the point here.

 

[Jei Jei]

Shaya posts are always fun <3

 

[Bijou]

The point I was making was that if you're going to include custom moves as they are a part of the game, equipment should be included too for the same reason.

Just because it's feasible that it could be broken, doesn't mean that it is. And as was mentioned, if there is a certain set that seems "too powerful" it's likely that you can create another set specifically to counter it. Herein would lie the enjoyment of the game in taking time to create sets to be strong against others.

Control/standardisation issues aren't a problem. Although the equipment is generated randomly, once you have that piece of equipment it's stats never change. As such, the only randomness is getting a piece of equipment with the stats that you actually want.

Personally I'm on the "I'd rather play without customs" boat myself, but if you're going to include one thing then you should also include the other while there is no evidence to suggest that it would break the game or too hard to control.

 

[Shaya]

The point I was making was that if you're going to include custom moves as they are a part of the game, equipment should be included too for the same reason.

Yet they're not the same and no one treats them the same except for the anti-customs argument. They're not apart of the same question of whether or not custom specials should be legal.

Pro-equipment advocates have standards, they don't try and argue "if custom specials are legal equipment should be too". It's predominately a smooth-lander force. A nice piece of equipment that is only unlocked through rewards and hence has set stats that aren't randomized. Dre is a genius idiot, everyone will fall for his traps, forever. At the core of the debate the point wouldn't be made, and your point couldn't be made to justify anti-customs either. Move on.

 

[Bijou]

Yet they're not the same and no one treats them the same except for the anti-customs argument.

Why should no one treat them the same? If people are going to push for customs, then I think equipment should be on too. As you said, and I agree, creating custom sets to rival others sets would be an interesting and likely quite fun mechanic.

I'm not playing the devils advocate. I think if you're going to have customs, you need to have equipment also for all the same reasons that people want custom moves.

If you go back to any customs argument and replace customs with "equipment", I believe that the arguments are interchangeable.

 

[Pazx]

I can play the same game on my Wii U to someone else's Wii U at a tournament. If you start using equipment, that is no longer a possibility. Until we get mods/powersaves/hacks that generate the desired equipment (on EVERY SINGLE CONSOLE) equipment legal tournaments will not be considered a serious event.

Also 4srs equipment wifi battles could be cool because then you're rewarded for grinding out good equipment and nobody is disadvantaged by having to play on a console without the build they are used to playing with, but I can't imagine it taking off at tournaments.

Who's doing rules for BAM?

 

[extrasensory]

Why should no one treat them the same? If people are going to push for customs, then I think equipment should be on too. As you said, and I agree, creating custom sets to rival others sets would be an interesting and likely quite fun mechanic.

I'm not playing the devils advocate. I think if you're going to have customs, you need to have equipment also for all the same reasons that people want custom moves.

If you go back to any customs argument and replace customs with "equipment", I believe that the arguments are interchangeable.

from how i see it it's mostly the randomness factor to it that makes equipment probably impossible to implement in any way when it comes to competitive play. let's say you want to prepare for a match against a custom mario for example - in 10 minutes you can know all the different moves he could take. you can look at videos, check frame data and if you don't want to unlock them yourself you can always ask someone online to show them off. he has different combinations of moves but those moves are always going to do the same thing so you can reasonably prepare for them.

now let's say you want to prepare for a mario with equipment - how are you going to do that? there is such a ridiculous amount of variety when it comes to which combination of stat boosts and secondary effects he could have that it's not really feasible to be able to prepare for whatever you're going to be up against. on the other hand, there are so many potential builds that having a 3DS to transfer yours over is pretty much mandatory, while as mentioned before custom moves are pretty static and for now we at least have the custom set project and ways to easily unlock custom moves are being found.

not to mention how broken some of the effects and stat boosts are, they'd turn the game into a cluster**** even if they were allowed.

 

[Luco]

It's a viable strategy to ask "how do these moves affect Mario's playstyle" and look them up, but you can never possibly research/be prepared for equipment because they're so variable. Considering almost all equipment is randomised, this is the primary difference between the support of custom moves and the support of (all) custom equipment, which very few people actually have backing for and support. The pro-custom equipment movement is, as already mentioned, based on non-randomised equipment... which could be viable, yes. But not all equipment, or at least at this point in time, as far as I can see.

An inability to standardise what people have access to prevents this from being competitive. With characters, you can choose to use the top tier character. With equipment, if you don't have certain pieces, well there's no guarantee you can ever get them, and that's too bad.

 

[Dre89]

I want to play the game at it's best with the most people being pleased with it, rather than use a ruleset the majority disagrees with just to stick with your principle of choosing the natural option (not even natural since customs unlocked but w/e).
We actually can dictate how we want to play the game and we don't have to meet a perfect conclusion to do this. We can make minor improvements

You're throwing arbitrary around like a dirty word when you're just telling people - and in effect also the sum of the community - off for making decisions.

I said that if the community universally agrees one option, then you should go with that option. However, in the case where the community is divided, a decision still has to be made. In the scenario where some people will be unhappy either way it's better to take the non-arbitrary option.

 

[Attila_]

Pro-customs lobbyists stating 'logistics' as the primary reason for equipment being banned?

That's a bit hypocritical.

Customs may be accessible on all consoles, but unlocking them is an incredible task. In this sense, it's no different to equipment. In the same vein, equipment could also be standardized and placed on all wiis for community access.

In fact, equipment does a much better job of 'balancing' and 'introducing variety' into smash 4 anyway. Fancy Charizard with good movement speed? Or Pacman with kill potential? Equipment brings this waaaaaay closer than customs ever could.

But you ban equipment because of logistics. Riiiiiight.

 

[Splice]

To be honest, at this point I would actually prefer equipment legal personally, although it might not be best for everyone.
Some of the way equipment alters movement can mess up people for having otherwise good habits, but then again customs do this too.
I think equipment would allow even more room for innovative setups and constant development and tweaking of characters, and this is the smash game with that potential to be that game where we can constantly fine tune our characters for different matchups.

The part of me that just wants Smash 4 to be an abysmal version of melee wants customs/equipment banned, but I think I would prefer having customs and equipment on to do cool stuff with. Creative setups are really cool in Smash 4.

As Attila said it seems that what we'll end up settling with eventually isn't based on any committed version of what people want, only as much as they can except. A lot of the community accepts no customs, a lot of the community accepts customs, not many people except equipment and that's pretty much why there is no argument for it. Rather than any concrete logic in the end it's just what people will accept and what they are ready to play with competitively.

 

[Pazx]

Pro-customs lobbyists stating 'logistics' as the primary reason for equipment being banned?

That's a bit hypocritical.

Customs may be accessible on all consoles, but unlocking them is an incredible task. In this sense, it's no different to equipment. In the same vein, equipment could also be standardized and placed on all wiis for community access.

In fact, equipment does a much better job of 'balancing' and 'introducing variety' into smash 4 anyway. Fancy Charizard with good movement speed? Or Pacman with kill potential? Equipment brings this waaaaaay closer than customs ever could.

But you ban equipment because of logistics. Riiiiiight.

Equipment drops are completely randomised, as are their stats and other effects. We have 10 custom slots per character to work with. If you think the logistics issue is non-existent, please provide us with a solution, saying "equipment can be standardised" is not enough.

Or don't, because I know you don't really want equipment, and that's okay, I won't make you waste your time coming up with a solution, but then you have to concede that it is not worth the time effort of coming up with a solution let alone implementing one, making the "logistics" issue completely valid.

 

[Luco]

Pro-customs lobbyists stating 'logistics' as the primary reason for equipment being banned?

That's a bit hypocritical.

Customs may be accessible on all consoles, but unlocking them is an incredible task. In this sense, it's no different to equipment. In the same vein, equipment could also be standardized and placed on all wiis for community access.

In fact, equipment does a much better job of 'balancing' and 'introducing variety' into smash 4 anyway. Fancy Charizard with good movement speed? Or Pacman with kill potential? Equipment brings this waaaaaay closer than customs ever could.

But you ban equipment because of logistics. Riiiiiight.

Equipment can be standardised? This is honestly the first time I've heard of it.

 

[Splice]

Neither of you got Attila's point, in fact you're just providing further example