Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[DD_]

By the way, the thread that DD is referring to is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-and-the-suicide-clause.392566/

That thread is almost as cancerous as this one tho, just a warning.

 

[M]

The move is not able to be 'escaped'. It's only perceived as being able to be 'escaped' now due to an arbitrary patch from Nintendo saying Bowser dies first. When Bowser Dies, he stops existing, which means he can't be grabbing his opponent due to no longer existing. At this point, the opponent can jump 'free'. Characters with long recoveries such as Villager can even get back to the stage.

I'm two ways about the suicide clause. On the one hand, diving into it opens up a can of worms - What classifies as a suicide move? Under what scenarios do these rules apply? Do we have time to call over TO's to make a ruling / watch a match replay in the case of a dispute?

If characters are able to jump free, then they should. This confirms Bowser loses anyway and defeats the purpose of the clause. The only concerning is as you mentioned, the opponent being able to steer Bowser to his death if at a lower %. But shouldn't the Bowser player know not to side-B in that scenario?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I feel like since Bowser's not really a strong character using Side B over the edge should count as a win for Bowser simply because:

1) the game says Ganon's side b is ganon-win
2) why force players to arbitrarily remember what stages are sudden death and what stages are auto lose
3) the other player is **** for letting bowser klaw them to their death

 

[Splice]

Nintendo have intentionally designed/altered the character (Bowser) to not have a suicide move.
Just because it forces them offstage does not make it a suicide victory, it does not make it the same type of move as Ganon's SideB. For consistency the sudden death would be BOWSERS LOSS too.
You have to accept that suicide with the SideB isn't a real tool that Bowser possesses anymore, making it a victory him is inventing a tool he doesn't possess by design.

 

[Pazx]

If we decide Bowser loses upon sudden death then that also applies to D3, Kirby, Wario, Rob (I think?), basically everyone except Ganon.

Although I think these characters would get the win in a better game what we need is consistency so I think the best solution is to follow what the game says. If the initiator loses, we accept that. If the match goes to Sudden Death, the initiator should lose (it could also go to % I suppose, or a 1 stock rematch).

 

[Splice]

1 stock rematch is not a great option, anything that increases time is an issue.
If it goes to % that's pretty weird for Bowser because whoever has lower % can choose where the move goes lol
I think it's a bad idea anyway
I don't know about the other suicides as much as Bowser. Doesn't ROB get the victory screen with suicide?

 

[dean.]

Dedede goes to results screen (he loses) vs. every character except R.O.B. which is sudden death.

 

[LuxShadow1]

2 stocks should work just fine really. But I think we should be testing the waters with 3 and 4 stocks a little more.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Why would bowser lose if it goes into sudden death? Clearly nintendo has actually intended that we let the bobombs decide, instead of inventing rules where bowser always loses.

 

[Pazx]

Why would bowser lose if it goes into sudden death? Clearly nintendo has actually intended that we let the bobombs decide, instead of inventing rules where bowser always loses.

Bowser loses on some stages and forces sudden death on some other stages. We're not playing sudden death.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bowser loses on some stages and forces sudden death on some other stages. We're not playing sudden death.

Why not? We're already under the premise that bowser should lose because nintendo sucks at coding.

All suicide moves should be in the initiators favor.

 

[Pazx]

Why not? We're already under the premise that bowser should lose because nintendo sucks at coding.

All suicide moves should be in the initiators favor.

Because Bowser dies first, certain characters (Villager, Kirby I think) can make it back to the stage after a bowsercide. Suicide moves kill the initiator 100% of the time. Then there are moves like Kirby/D3/Wario's neutral specials that can be mashed out of just above the blast zones where we can't see and again, some characters can make it back. I don't see the logic in defying the game to make the initiator win by killing himself and not killing the opponent.

 

[Splice]

Why would bowser lose if it goes into sudden death? Clearly nintendo has actually intended that we let the bobombs decide, instead of inventing rules where bowser always loses.

That requires further gameplay, we do not want an option that takes up more time.

Additionally, that has an extra level of uncertainty to actually giving a victory screen. Since Bowser gets the losing screen sometimes is why I think the Sudden Death should be a loss to; it adds consistency. It's not great to have it be decided randomly or by certain stages. We make alterations to this game to make it more fit for competitive play like not using items and not using sudden death, trying to compare that to the mechanics of a certain move is a stretch.

 

[M]

Question: is the person grabbed able to mash jump/up B as they are being released from the grab at the bottom of the screen and survive that extra couple of seconds to confirm the win?

 

[Leisha]

The ROBcide makes rob lose everytime. I just only do it on the stock lead assuming if I did that on the same stock I would lose. But yeah everytime I've tried on the same stock, rob loses.

This is all sounding a bit complex now xD

 

[Pazx]

Question: is the person grabbed able to mash jump/up B as they are being released from the grab at the bottom of the screen and survive that extra couple of seconds to confirm the win?

If Bowser dies first, the opponents stock and % will remain on-screen whether the opponent jumps or not. There isn't enough time to get back on-screen after the "GAME" appears from what I've seen (maybe Sonic's up special?), but that shouldn't matter.

Now for the most definitive form of proof: shaky phone video.

@Tin Man make sure to update the rules before Sunday to address this pls

@ KuroganeHammer this is definitive proof that the initiator should not be considered the winner

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ KuroganeHammer this is definitive proof that the initiator should not be considered the winner

It's not really, lol.

 

[Buddfox]

Customs are interesting. With the time limit, will the one with the least damage win?

 

[Dre89]

When it comes to banning certain customs, I think you have to think about how you'd deal with the move if it was the default. I doubt DK would be banned if Kong Cyclone was his default upb.

 

[Venks]

When it comes to banning certain customs, I think you have to think about how you'd deal with the move if it was the default. I doubt DK would be banned if Kong Cyclone was his default upb.

Exactly this. Diddy is perfectly fine in my opinion. Sure he might be impacting the game more than any other character at the moment, but people will figure him out and it'll be an interesting turn. It's the same with customs. There will be a couple that seem really strong, but people will eventually figure things out. If customs are getting banned before putting in months of play then that is a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[LuxShadow1]

Diddy isn't completely broken though. There are ways around him if you have the right character + take into account some characters can really screw him over with customs.

 

[Dre89]

Exactly this. Diddy is perfectly fine in my opinion. Sure he might be impacting the game more than any other character at the moment, but people will figure him out and it'll be an interesting turn. It's the same with customs. There will be a couple that seem really strong, but people will eventually figure things out. If customs are getting banned before putting in months of play then that is a knee-jerk reaction.

Diddy will eventually drop off the #1 spot when he's forced to approach more due to the meta getting campier, and when people start consistently exploiting his recovery.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy isn't Snake, dude.

 

[Dre89]

Diddy isn't Snake, dude.

I don't get your point sorry

 

[Shaya]

Diddy is a bit more dynamic than Brawl Snake and you remind me heavily of early "Snake" predictions from Brawl.
Side-B is a very good, fast, recovery move.
His Up-B while having it's obvious weaknesses, is strictly more dynamic than it was in Brawl by a lot. 360 control dude.

His camp game may not be insurmountable (heck: Olimar), but Diddy goes in a already quite well, he doesn't need to camp. He has multiple long range safe moves on shield and dynamic projectiles that give him free dash ins. His reward reliability is unparallelled, without patches, that isn't going to change either.

 

[Dre89]

Diddy is a bit more dynamic than Brawl Snake and you remind me heavily of early "Snake" predictions from Brawl.
Side-B is a very good, fast, recovery move.
His Up-B while having it's obvious weaknesses, is strictly more dynamic than it was in Brawl by a lot. 360 control dude.

His camp game may not be insurmountable (heck: Olimar), but Diddy goes in a already quite well, he doesn't need to camp. He has multiple long range safe moves on shield and dynamic projectiles that give him free dash ins. His reward reliability is unparallelled, without patches, that isn't going to change either.

I wasn't saying Diddy should camp. I was saying that people will eventually start forcing him to approach more as the meta gets more defensive. His approach is really good but it will get harder for him as the meta develops. It will probably also get to a point where he dies nearly every time he's forced to use his recovery at high level play.

He already has some tricky MUs. I know people think Oli and Rosa are rough for him, and Villager is a soft counter IMO. I know some high level players like Zero and M2K are already saying Sheik is better. I think she'll overtake him eventually.

 

[Splice]

imo Diddy will drop of the #1 spot (or already has?) when people learn how to play Sheik.

I have a hard time with people who are just like "Diddy is why we need customs"
I think it'd be more accurate to say something like "Diddy, Sonic, Sheik and Rosalina are why we need customs"
Perhaps I'm missing someone, but those 4 characters are above the next character by more than Diddy is above any of the other three. I'm sure others might not agree with my top 4, But I hope you get the point. I don't think Diddy is like Metaknight in Brawl; he won't be in a tier by himself. It would be inaccurate.

Don't get me wrong I agree with Shaya though, Diddy's good traits are quite solid; he won't get down because people will learn how to make him seem bad. He isn't bad, he is really THAT good. If he goes down it'll be because there are other characters with other insanely good traits and people will learn to play them better or develop technology.

 

[Shaya]

Iono, Diddy probably hasn't dropped out of first place purely because I don't think Diddy has done anything but increasingly take a majority of 1st-3rd spots for most local tournaments US/EU/Everywhere?
#_#

Sheik is a darling, that's for sure. Those thighs are not full of lies. She really uses every mechanic in this game so well *_*

I hear the latest Canberra tournament was Wii Fit/G&W+Falco/Pikachu (and 4th was a Palu-TUNA, not even the bounciest of fish), we definitely ["Famous last words"] need more diddy's and sheik's to curb these low tier scum taking all the money~

 

[Dre89]

Iono, Diddy probably hasn't dropped out of first place purely because I don't think Diddy has done anything but increasingly take a majority of 1st-3rd spots for most local tournaments US/EU/Everywhere?
#_#

Sheik is a darling, that's for sure. Those thighs are not full of lies. She really uses every mechanic in this game so well *_*

I hear the latest Canberra tournament was Wii Fit/G&W+Falco/Pikachu (and 4th was a Palu-TUNA, not even the bounciest of fish), we definitely ["Famous last words"] need more diddy's and sheik's to curb these low tier scum taking all the money~

Wasn't there only like 4 Diddys in the final 12 at Apex? Second place went to Dabuz who played Rosa and Oli.

 

[Splice]

imo if you play GnW in this game you have no appreciation for his previous traits in Melee and Brawl that made him so amazing
unless you're appreciating how he moves through the air which is still the same at least. But that's it.

Waveguider is a hero on that Wii-fit though, pls bring him to BAM

@ Dre89 Apex wasn't the only tournament that ever happened although you are right it showed good signs. Diddy certainly isn't dominating everything alone. Regardless he has been doing well in the meantime but that's not the sole decider of how good a character is. Sheik will pick up. When I said maybe she already is #1, I didn't mean by results but I think many others forecast her to take over Diddy, and we're all just waiting for the tournament results to flip over and show it.

 

[Shaya]

I appreciate Up Smash invincibility, chef, killing up air, upwards angled fsmash, Up tilts, chairs, jabjabjabjabjab, and Up-b is stylish (especially good combawz maker); oh yeah, one of the best dash attacks tyvm. He moves around pretty good in this game in both the air and ground~

He's jank master X, can't you give up your past of Down Airs and Down Smashes and see the light of wind boxes, bacon and being potentially able to get four+ 9s in a row?

Also I specifically meant "locals" as in, local level (not regional/national).

 

[Splice]

his dash attack is huge buffed yes

Usmash has always had invincibility but now it's worse since there is less disjoint from his body
Although better than how they forgot to make the nose invulnerable in Melee...
Chef is still great as it always has been

But Utilt and other things do not make up for the loss of Dtilt, Lingering hitboxes, Disjoint, coolest throw game ever (this is objective) in Melee and an at least interesting one in Brawl with Dsmash and Nair option select options.
Used to have the best game for manipulating smashes on tilts due to disjoint, better than having an angled Fsmash
His single/two jab game is amazing in Melee and Brawl, I'm not happy with the million jab option being the go to as well
Also in Brawl, his Dair? The only move you can fastfall, and then un-fastfall while it's still out? wow call the police that's too awesome to be legal

He's always been pretty bad but I felt the "character archetype" or whatever you want to call it that he fulfilled in Melee and Brawl has now been lost. The fact that he is Jank Master X is actually a negative thing to me. Where is my legitimate character?
RIP in Parachutes although the fishbowl is still really cool don't know if it's any good in smash4 though

 

[Shaya]

Jank Master X being I will kill you in a different way every single stock over the course of 1million matches.
Extremely legitimate character =)

It's all jab1s though :< And eh, he does reach out on Fsmash now though, but he still has potent disjoints all around.
The game in general doesn't tend to have elongated hitboxes. I would say on average G&W is out a lot longer than most anyway.

*never forget AC fair*

 

[luke_atyeo]

Diddy is a bit more dynamic than Brawl Snake and you remind me heavily of early "Snake" predictions from Brawl.
Side-B is a very good, fast, recovery move.
His Up-B while having it's obvious weaknesses, is strictly more dynamic than it was in Brawl by a lot. 360 control dude.

His camp game may not be insurmountable (heck: Olimar), but Diddy goes in a already quite well, he doesn't need to camp. He has multiple long range safe moves on shield and dynamic projectiles that give him free dash ins. His reward reliability is unparallelled, without patches, that isn't going to change either.

this post is too dynamic

 

[Attila_]

imo Diddy will drop of the #1 spot (or already has?) when people learn how to play Sheik.

I have a hard time with people who are just like "Diddy is why we need customs"
I think it'd be more accurate to say something like "Diddy, Sonic, Sheik and Rosalina are why we need customs"

Rosalina is actually pretty hugely buffed by customs. I hear Sheik may have better options, but haven't seen them first hand.

I think Sheik is probably better than Diddy; needles are bloody OP and effectively shut down half the cast. A campy Sheik is a scary (very underutilized) strategy. Diddy can't play that style nearly as effectively.

Otherwise, I don't think I want characters to be buffed by a couple of extra moves. It's not changing the characters, it's only changing individual moves. This comes back to the PM idea; in order to buff low tiers, you need to completely overhaul them, or change a few moves. An overhaul is hard, but changing a few moves is easy. But by giving them a few select great moves, you force spam, and increase jank, as opposed to making the game more dynamic. PM charizard is a perfect example here: a bad character, but if you get a dthrow, you can take a stock. That isn't improving the game, or making the game more 'dynamic', but it does make the game dumb sometimes.

 

[Dre89]

Rosalina is actually pretty hugely buffed by customs. I hear Sheik may have better options, but haven't seen them first hand.

I think Sheik is probably better than Diddy; needles are bloody OP and effectively shut down half the cast. A campy Sheik is a scary (very underutilized) strategy. Diddy can't play that style nearly as effectively.

Otherwise, I don't think I want characters to be buffed by a couple of extra moves. It's not changing the characters, it's only changing individual moves. This comes back to the PM idea; in order to buff low tiers, you need to completely overhaul them, or change a few moves. An overhaul is hard, but changing a few moves is easy. But by giving them a few select great moves, you force spam, and increase jank, as opposed to making the game more dynamic. PM charizard is a perfect example here: a bad character, but if you get a dthrow, you can take a stock. That isn't improving the game, or making the game more 'dynamic', but it does make the game dumb sometimes.

Customs shouldn't be legal because they help lower tiers or make the game more diverse, they should be legal because they're a balanced part of the game. By default, anything that is competitive should be legal. Something should only be banned if it clearly makes the game non-competitive (eg. items).

When you start banning elements that are perfectly competitive, it becomes very arbitrary what 'true' competitive Smash is. We know customs are perfectly competitive because the characters with the notable custom moves would not be banned if those customs were their default options. As for spam, there's plenty of spammable moves in default sets already so I don't see how that's an issue.

 

[Splice]

Right Dre, but a lot of people in support of customs use that as their argument "more diverse tier list"

Anyway, what if customs and non-customs are both competitive but lets say hypothetically non-customs is much better competitively?
Do we stick with customs because that way we have more stuff and still a competitive game
Or do we go with non-customs because it's slightly better and people are fond of both?

 

[Luco]

If that were the hypothetical, then customs would probably be taken out because they didn't add much to the game (Brawl has lots of fun and diverse stuff but is pretty broken competitively and a lot of people don't enjoy it).

 

[Attila_]

Customs shouldn't be legal because they help lower tiers or make the game more diverse, they should be legal because they're a balanced part of the game. By default, anything that is competitive should be legal. Something should only be banned if it clearly makes the game non-competitive (eg. items).

When you start banning elements that are perfectly competitive, it becomes very arbitrary what 'true' competitive Smash is. We know customs are perfectly competitive because the characters with the notable custom moves would not be banned if those customs were their default options. As for spam, there's plenty of spammable moves in default sets already so I don't see how that's an issue.

'True' competitive smash? You mean 2 minutes with items on?

Smash isn't competitive by nature; we make it that way.

So we implement rules to try to make the game competitive. And in doing so, we need to make decisions. It just so happens your decisions and mine are different.

 

[Dre89]

Wall of text incoming

'True' competitive smash? You mean 2 minutes with items on?

Smash isn't competitive by nature; we make it that way.

So we implement rules to try to make the game competitive. And in doing so, we need to make decisions. It just so happens your decisions and mine are different.

2 minutes items is not true competitive Smash because it's not competitive. That's my point, we deviate from that to make it competitive, but we don't need to remove things that are perfectly competitive.

Something people need to remember is that customs are by default part of the game. We're not adding them when we want to use them, we're removing them when we don't. Removing customs is like removing a perfectly competitve stage like Town and City just because it's new. With stages you need to justify a ban by demonstrating that it's not competitive, I don't see why customs should be different.

Customs don't need to improve gameplay to justify their inclusion, they just have to be competitive. Anything that is a part of the game should be assumed legal regardless of whether it improves gameplay, unless it's not competitve. Newcomers don't have to prove that they make the game better to justify being legalised. If Smash games had customs from the beginning, the customs of Smash4 would have no issue staying legal.

And gameplay-wise there's nothing inherently wrong with the custom moves themselves. No character would get banned if any custom move happened to be a default instead.

So yes you and I favour different decisions. The difference is I'm not being arbitrary. I'm not arbitrarily removing a perfectly fine gameplay element.

Right Dre, but a lot of people in support of customs use that as their argument "more diverse tier list"

Anyway, what if customs and non-customs are both competitive but lets say hypothetically non-customs is much better competitively?
Do we stick with customs because that way we have more stuff and still a competitive game
Or do we go with non-customs because it's slightly better and people are fond of both?

You stick with customs, because like I've said above customs don't have to improve gameplay to be legal, they just have to be competitive. The exception would be if the entire community that the decision affects is anti-customs. But in a divided community you go with customs because it's the non-arbitrary option.

It's not really anyone's place to tweak perfectly competitive elements in a pre-existing game when that decision affects other parties who don't agree. If we really wanted to, we could tweak so many things to make it as competitive as possible. We could do things like ban more simplistic characters that require almost nothing beyond fundamentals. Or we could play with a crop of 6 or so characters, all of which has one or two counters within that pool to make a healthy counterpicking system. We could make it so that you have to SD whenever you get to 100%, so that rage isn't a factor.

I'm just spouting ideas off the top of my head, but the point is the game is nowhere as optimally competitive as it theoretically could be. To get there however we would have to make arbitrary tweaks. Instead historically we've left it as untouched as possible whilst also keeping it competitive. Keeping customs is following that line of thinking. Removing customs is making an arbitrary tweak, akin to SDing when you hit 100, or banning a perfectly competitive stage like Battlefield.