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Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion
- Thread starter Attila_
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DD_
Smash Journeyman
5 minutes and customs eh.... This brings back good old EVO memories of brawl with items on! Smash fans REJOYCE!
#VillagerDittoFinals2015
#VillagerDittoFinals2015
earla
Smash Lord
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No two ways about it, we're gonna have to prepare for customs by trialing them at a few monthlies.
Perhaps we should alternate between each type of event for a while? I think it would be silly for us to ignore customs at this point, although they're not guaranteed to be locked in past EVO.
EVO is after BAM, so we won't get the word on how people feel about that until it's too late for a decision.
I can only speak for myself here but while I'm prepared for a future of customs, I would want BAM this year to be a no-customs tournament. But I guess the vote on that is also up to the voice of interstaters who want to support their game by coming to BAM.
Perhaps we should alternate between each type of event for a while? I think it would be silly for us to ignore customs at this point, although they're not guaranteed to be locked in past EVO.
EVO is after BAM, so we won't get the word on how people feel about that until it's too late for a decision.
I can only speak for myself here but while I'm prepared for a future of customs, I would want BAM this year to be a no-customs tournament. But I guess the vote on that is also up to the voice of interstaters who want to support their game by coming to BAM.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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gee, its almost like I've been telling you guys this for quite a while now, who would have though?
You, apparently.
Both sides, pro-customs and anti-customs have reasonable points, and you can't always be right when you try to predict the future. There's no guarantee that customs popularity will live on, and you could still turn out to end up wrong. In the end we can only do what we think is right in the time being, and we need to be able to adjust as the situation changes or becomes more apparent. Which is what we are doing.
Karnu
yaylatios.gif
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Well with Evo having customs legal get ready for the ***** in QLD to use it as their legitimate argument to try legalise customs for the 9999th time.
Love QLD Melee
Wish I was in Vic smash 4
Still disagree with customs, hoping Evo will be a one off.
Love QLD Melee
Wish I was in Vic smash 4
Still disagree with customs, hoping Evo will be a one off.
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Venks
Smash Journeyman
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I don't see why not. I stopped pushing for customs when Apex announced no customs. Didn't look at customs again until after Apex. Now that EVO is going to be featuring customs along with the tri-state area and other big Smash communities in the US it looks to be the growing trend. Heck Smash 4 has been gaining a lot of traction on twitch since people started streaming games with customs enabled.
Karnu
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luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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mate
5mins is cancer.
Good luck fighting matches against passive sheik without time out.
Good luck fighting matches against passive sheik without time out.
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
Mr.Wizard please
Pazx
hoo hah
The 5 minute rule is a "let's reduce the absolute worst case scenario" decision by Evo who are aware Smash already takes longer than most fighters. Customs are nice though.
If we're worried about timeouts 2 stock 8 minute should be the norm, I figure most matches will be over in less than half of that anyway and it make stalling for a timeout a less viable strategy.
If we're worried about timeouts 2 stock 8 minute should be the norm, I figure most matches will be over in less than half of that anyway and it make stalling for a timeout a less viable strategy.
earla
Smash Lord
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lez discuss customs MELBOURNE. personally im not a fan of them. thee concepts beautiful but a number of them strike me as plain cheesy.. villager, dk ezzzz win
perhaps we can get input from veterans + some of the newer players to see how they feel about them.
could alternate tourneys or go all customs until evo. the issue is if USA choose to go forward with them after evo we're miles behind the meta. Evo will be directly compared to apex which was rather under-whelming as a viewer.
thoughts... ?? does anyone have more information about whats going on in the states? predictions??
E
perhaps we can get input from veterans + some of the newer players to see how they feel about them.
could alternate tourneys or go all customs until evo. the issue is if USA choose to go forward with them after evo we're miles behind the meta. Evo will be directly compared to apex which was rather under-whelming as a viewer.
thoughts... ?? does anyone have more information about whats going on in the states? predictions??
E
Karnu
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Been playing brawl since 2011 so I assume you might referee to me as being a veteran..
I'm not a fan of customs because I believe smash is good enough with a very simple standard (Like the for glory standard).
All the other 3 smash games (More so Brawl and Melee) have both done fine without custom moves and Melee to this day still reins as the most popular smash game to play and it even comfortably dominating smash 4.
The other thing is customs have to be unlocked, not everyone has the time to take on such a giant task. We mainly depend on domestic set ups and in saying that not every set up will have all customs and its not going to work with somebody who has certain custom that may not be on a majority of the Wii U set ups. Yes, I know that the 3DS can transfer to the wii U and it doesn't take much to do but then two problems come up
1: Not everyone will have a 3DS version or never played it much/dropped it for the wii U
2: What about people who get the motivation to want to get into the competitive scene from for Glory? For Glory has been a great approach to people wanting to get good and I think we should accommodate that factor that adapting to customs might be a turn off for the newer people and as a Melee player and going to smash 4 from brawl its a huge turn off for me and tbh I'd rather just put all my time in Melee if customs becomes a thing and in fact would probs rather play Brawl over smash 4 with customs.
I understand customs would put more depth into the meta game and may improve viability in other characters but I just don't think its necessary. Learning a MU with 4 special moves is enough, learning so many different combinations is unattractive when we can just learn one.
Thats my input
Customs or no customs, I won't be using them. Lucario is fine without them and I've been fine with out them in the other smash 4 games and Project M
And if they ban customs again enjoy re-adjusting to your default move set.
EDIT: I don't know if many of you socialise in the sub forums of your character but the customs at EVO has turned off the prime majority of the good Lucario players..
I'm not a fan of customs because I believe smash is good enough with a very simple standard (Like the for glory standard).
All the other 3 smash games (More so Brawl and Melee) have both done fine without custom moves and Melee to this day still reins as the most popular smash game to play and it even comfortably dominating smash 4.
The other thing is customs have to be unlocked, not everyone has the time to take on such a giant task. We mainly depend on domestic set ups and in saying that not every set up will have all customs and its not going to work with somebody who has certain custom that may not be on a majority of the Wii U set ups. Yes, I know that the 3DS can transfer to the wii U and it doesn't take much to do but then two problems come up
1: Not everyone will have a 3DS version or never played it much/dropped it for the wii U
2: What about people who get the motivation to want to get into the competitive scene from for Glory? For Glory has been a great approach to people wanting to get good and I think we should accommodate that factor that adapting to customs might be a turn off for the newer people and as a Melee player and going to smash 4 from brawl its a huge turn off for me and tbh I'd rather just put all my time in Melee if customs becomes a thing and in fact would probs rather play Brawl over smash 4 with customs.
I understand customs would put more depth into the meta game and may improve viability in other characters but I just don't think its necessary. Learning a MU with 4 special moves is enough, learning so many different combinations is unattractive when we can just learn one.
Thats my input
Customs or no customs, I won't be using them. Lucario is fine without them and I've been fine with out them in the other smash 4 games and Project M
And if they ban customs again enjoy re-adjusting to your default move set.
EDIT: I don't know if many of you socialise in the sub forums of your character but the customs at EVO has turned off the prime majority of the good Lucario players..
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JediLink
Smash Ace
I'm primarily a Melee player so I don't know how much my opinion counts here, but if customs become commonplace, I will probably never play Smash 4 again. Almost all of them exist purely to be hella gimmicky in some way or another and I really cannot be arsed learning the nuances of every single one just to know what to expect. Think about that as far as accessibility for new players is concerned.
Miis and Palutena however, I'm fine with them. They're straightforward enough, and perhaps more importantly, they're already unlocked, so getting familiar is quick and easy.
Miis and Palutena however, I'm fine with them. They're straightforward enough, and perhaps more importantly, they're already unlocked, so getting familiar is quick and easy.
Shakyy
Addicted to Ice.
I feel like customs should be legal for Palutena + the Mii's, I have limited justification for this other than they're both unlocked from the start and they're (for the most part) The only customs that drastically change the move (in both appearance and effect).
I think chucking another minute on and leaving it at 2 stocks 6 minutes is perfectly fine.
I'm not too fussed on stages I feel like the stages they had legal at APEX were fine but could of benefited from a few additions.
I think chucking another minute on and leaving it at 2 stocks 6 minutes is perfectly fine.
I'm not too fussed on stages I feel like the stages they had legal at APEX were fine but could of benefited from a few additions.
I suppose my opinion is pretty obvious, but it's probably worth vocalizing a few things.
1. The worst component of Evo's ruleset is undoubtedly the 5 minute timer. Such a short timer makes timing out a very viable strategy; the ruleset makers clearly didn't take this into consideration. With this timer, I feel like the only way to play is one stock, a rule that seems pretty unpopular at this point. For this purposes of our scene, I cannot see any benefit from utilizing this ourselves.
2. Customs... I've been pretty vocal with my stance. 'Cheap' strategies, or strategies that are unnecessarily hard to beat are readily accessible in the form of customs, and as such, I have trouble seeing them fit into a competitive ruleset. In fact, I personally find it hard to distinguish their viability from equipment, which could arguably bring about the same sort of variability (or not) to our game.
3. If Evo plays customs, it might set a precedent. It might. This puts us in a rough spot, because we don't want to fall behind. But the vast majority of our scene (Melbourne) is against customs, so we still have to make a ruleset for the people. I also feel that a 5 minute timer with customs will highlight their broken-ness and showcase our game in a very negative light; It's essentially brawl at Evo again. I suppose I hope that Evo doesn't play customs, because more than anything else, it will promote our game as spam heavy and campy to the wider fighting game community,
4. I'm willing to open this up to the Melbourne community; we'll run a poll, if people want to play customs we will, either instead of doubles or (non-custom) singles. Or we could run custom doubles first to test the waters. I can't see any benefit to playing with a 5 minute timer, though.
5. I think that with KJ64 gone, there aren't enough stages for double bans in Bo5 sets now. In Bo3s it seems fine, but in a Bo5, you seriously run out of stages to pick. I think that rule needs revision.
6. The trial of TC over FD seemed like a really large success; there was great variability of the starter stages. While FD was in the list, it was almost never chosen due to its polarizing nature, but when swapped with TC, the three stages seemed to have equal playtime; highly representative of a 'neutral' list.
1. The worst component of Evo's ruleset is undoubtedly the 5 minute timer. Such a short timer makes timing out a very viable strategy; the ruleset makers clearly didn't take this into consideration. With this timer, I feel like the only way to play is one stock, a rule that seems pretty unpopular at this point. For this purposes of our scene, I cannot see any benefit from utilizing this ourselves.
2. Customs... I've been pretty vocal with my stance. 'Cheap' strategies, or strategies that are unnecessarily hard to beat are readily accessible in the form of customs, and as such, I have trouble seeing them fit into a competitive ruleset. In fact, I personally find it hard to distinguish their viability from equipment, which could arguably bring about the same sort of variability (or not) to our game.
3. If Evo plays customs, it might set a precedent. It might. This puts us in a rough spot, because we don't want to fall behind. But the vast majority of our scene (Melbourne) is against customs, so we still have to make a ruleset for the people. I also feel that a 5 minute timer with customs will highlight their broken-ness and showcase our game in a very negative light; It's essentially brawl at Evo again. I suppose I hope that Evo doesn't play customs, because more than anything else, it will promote our game as spam heavy and campy to the wider fighting game community,
4. I'm willing to open this up to the Melbourne community; we'll run a poll, if people want to play customs we will, either instead of doubles or (non-custom) singles. Or we could run custom doubles first to test the waters. I can't see any benefit to playing with a 5 minute timer, though.
5. I think that with KJ64 gone, there aren't enough stages for double bans in Bo5 sets now. In Bo3s it seems fine, but in a Bo5, you seriously run out of stages to pick. I think that rule needs revision.
6. The trial of TC over FD seemed like a really large success; there was great variability of the starter stages. While FD was in the list, it was almost never chosen due to its polarizing nature, but when swapped with TC, the three stages seemed to have equal playtime; highly representative of a 'neutral' list.
Pazx
hoo hah
EVO's ruleset is going to be locked in place after the 27th of March. The Custom Moveset Project is going to receive a large update on the 17th (hopefully, 27th at the absolute latest) which will be the 10 presets for each character that will be available at Evo.
I propose that the scenes that have yet to adopt custom moves (Canberra, Melbourne, etc) have at least one person focus on unlocking them (and do so by mid-march). Until then, I don't have a problem with running vanilla Sm4sh, but after the Custom Moveset Project's update is released we should begin distributing the sets to consoles and handhelds of players at meets and tourneys. Keep in mind you only require a single 3DS to do so. This allows everyone who is involved with their local scene to practice with and against the exact movesets that will be present at Evo and to have the presets already on setups for tourneys if they choose to run customs.
What can you do until the 17th of March? Unlock customs, and get involved with your character boards to decide which custom movesets your character should have available. For unlocking customs, the best methods aside from using a powersave on a 3DS are making builds for characters with equipment and doing crazy orders, all star on hard, and classic. Setting up a smash tour then letting the game play through itself also garners custom moves but is a slow process.
Please note this is no longer me saying "hey customs are great you're all ignorant", I'm encouraging and providing a means to achieve an international standard in line with what Evo will be running.
~~~
2 stock 8 minute is where it's at, KJ64 should be legal (see also: skyloft, wuhu), 3 starter stages is not enough.
I propose that the scenes that have yet to adopt custom moves (Canberra, Melbourne, etc) have at least one person focus on unlocking them (and do so by mid-march). Until then, I don't have a problem with running vanilla Sm4sh, but after the Custom Moveset Project's update is released we should begin distributing the sets to consoles and handhelds of players at meets and tourneys. Keep in mind you only require a single 3DS to do so. This allows everyone who is involved with their local scene to practice with and against the exact movesets that will be present at Evo and to have the presets already on setups for tourneys if they choose to run customs.
What can you do until the 17th of March? Unlock customs, and get involved with your character boards to decide which custom movesets your character should have available. For unlocking customs, the best methods aside from using a powersave on a 3DS are making builds for characters with equipment and doing crazy orders, all star on hard, and classic. Setting up a smash tour then letting the game play through itself also garners custom moves but is a slow process.
Please note this is no longer me saying "hey customs are great you're all ignorant", I'm encouraging and providing a means to achieve an international standard in line with what Evo will be running.
~~~
2 stock 8 minute is where it's at, KJ64 should be legal (see also: skyloft, wuhu), 3 starter stages is not enough.
dean.
.
Do you have a Facebook account? A number of Melbourne players occasionally discuss rules through Facebook chat.
I dont normally agree with you, but with this point I couldnt agree more. I am definitely not an advocate for one stock matches but if evo intend to run a 5min timer then i feel anything more than one stock will lead to more campy time out game-plans, which as you stated "will promote our game as spam heavy and campy to the wider fighting game community".
I feel like i could say the same about certain characters standard/default movesets, and that customs just add more of these playstyles but at the same time they also add more solutions to said playstyles
This weekend Sydney had their first Smash WiiU doubles tourney, i just used the Singles stage list we have been using which didnt include KJ64. However now I will be placing it into the doubles stage list for next tourney.
EDIT: I am considering putting it into my singles stage list as well as a CP
can I confirm that Melbourne are still running 3 starters, currently T&C, BF, SV?
so far Sydney has been running 3 starters as well, Omega PT, BF, SV. However I was strongly considering going to 5 starters at least until evo to see how it changes things and i think it would be a good comparison if Melbourne are sticking with 3 staters (I dont mind the FD/T&C swap).
Sydney's 5 Starters would be the same as Evo except where FD is swapped out for Omega Palutena's temple. Omega PT, BF, SV, T&C, Lylat.
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Timic83
Smash Ace
Customs shouldn't even be an option on the table, it'd be like allowing create a fighters in Soul Calibur V tournament, except you have to buy a $200+ handheld and $80+ game or risk your character and playstyle being unplayable at events because the Wii U owner doesn't want to be forced to 100% their game.
Also, how did gems go in Street Fighter X Tekken? I remember them being so well recieved...
Also, how did gems go in Street Fighter X Tekken? I remember them being so well recieved...
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take your WiiU to one tourney and get all custom builds commonly played on it from the one 3DS the tourney requires to have all customs unlocked, not only does this solve the problem but you didnt spend anymore money or time you didnt want to, you now have all the customs on your console to take home and learn, play and practice with. The TO will also be happy that you have now brought your console to the event to help out with setups.
If there is a build you want to use that is not part of the Customs Project then you can build it using the 3DS that has all the customs on it. and transfer it to your system.
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LuxShadow1
Smash Rookie
Looks to me that the Australian scene should start developing after BAM7 happens. At least in terms of its direction towards customs. We should learn from evo and see how people will react.
If nothing else, customs are still very unsupported in Melbourne; suddenly shifting to an unpopular ruleset for an upcoming major seriously compromises the event. I'm happy to test the waters at smaller events, but we're not going to be messing around with BAM.
AzuraSarah
Smash Cadet
- Joined
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I am not sure if this has been brought up here or if anyone else has stumbled across it yet but this is a good post about what impact Customs would have: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...es-on-gameplay-and-balance-statistics.366457/
The incredibly underwhelming, short paraphrased version of the above is this:
'Characters taking the best of three special move options results in more consistent, stronger average characters.'
'Let's rank all special moves 0-100, where 0 is Sing and 100 is Shuttle Loop ... Brawl Meta Knight doesn't get any stronger; they are all still going to take Shuttle Loop ... On the other hand, if your current move is Sing, you have nowhere to go but up. It is literally impossible for a functioning move to be worse than Sing in 1v1 gameplay.'
I'd recommend reading the full post, since there is a lot more written in that post that my little snippet of it doesn't cover.
The incredibly underwhelming, short paraphrased version of the above is this:
'Characters taking the best of three special move options results in more consistent, stronger average characters.'
'Let's rank all special moves 0-100, where 0 is Sing and 100 is Shuttle Loop ... Brawl Meta Knight doesn't get any stronger; they are all still going to take Shuttle Loop ... On the other hand, if your current move is Sing, you have nowhere to go but up. It is literally impossible for a functioning move to be worse than Sing in 1v1 gameplay.'
I'd recommend reading the full post, since there is a lot more written in that post that my little snippet of it doesn't cover.
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dean.
.
I like how Sing's customs managed to be worse than Sing.
Pazx
hoo hah
aka the last good tournament
I look forward to Rosalina becoming standard with customs on /s
Shakyy
Addicted to Ice.
Lets just say im not looking forward to using default mii brawler at BAM
DD_
Smash Journeyman
This question is more directed at the Melbourne TO's as I'm planning for BAM etc. Anyway there is a nice big thread on the smash 4 boards at the moment about the suicide clause and wether Bowser using Koopacide should be included or not. Just wondering where the Melbourne TO's stand on this one?
M
+9999999999
Doesn't Bowser lose that trade now in Smash 4 anyway?
Leisha
Top Tier Pillow
From what I've seen, it either ties or bowser loses. I think he wins in the sudden death if you both die at the same time. Might be to do with characters or stage, not sure.
M
+9999999999
I meant as in the move is supposedly escapable at the very end.
AzuraSarah
Smash Cadet
- Joined
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The move is not able to be 'escaped'. It's only perceived as being able to be 'escaped' now due to an arbitrary patch from Nintendo saying Bowser dies first. When Bowser Dies, he stops existing, which means he can't be grabbing his opponent due to no longer existing. At this point, the opponent can jump 'free'. Characters with long recoveries such as Villager can even get back to the stage.
I'm two ways about the suicide clause. On the one hand, diving into it opens up a can of worms - What classifies as a suicide move? Under what scenarios do these rules apply? Do we have time to call over TO's to make a ruling / watch a match replay in the case of a dispute?
On the other hand, the fact that Bowser sometimes doesn't have control over which way his Side-B goes can and probably will make players fighting Bowser intentionally steer Bowser to suicide if they try to use their Side-B, to net themselves a win. I feel that's pretty dumb, punishing a player for landing a move will cause them to stop using that move entirely.
By the way, the thread that DD is referring to is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-and-the-suicide-clause.392566/
I'm two ways about the suicide clause. On the one hand, diving into it opens up a can of worms - What classifies as a suicide move? Under what scenarios do these rules apply? Do we have time to call over TO's to make a ruling / watch a match replay in the case of a dispute?
On the other hand, the fact that Bowser sometimes doesn't have control over which way his Side-B goes can and probably will make players fighting Bowser intentionally steer Bowser to suicide if they try to use their Side-B, to net themselves a win. I feel that's pretty dumb, punishing a player for landing a move will cause them to stop using that move entirely.
By the way, the thread that DD is referring to is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-and-the-suicide-clause.392566/
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