Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Redd]

Oh hey it's Rubyiris.

Vman1!!!11 <3 hit me up on aim man!

 

[Rubyiris]

Oh hey it's Rubyiris.

Vman1!!!11 <3 hit me up on aim man!

Oh hey, I have no idea who you are!

 

[V3ctorMan]

oh snap!! whats up redd

lol redd legit.... ^^

also xander we're the 2 guys.. (specially him) why you all were able to watch Pound V... respect where it's due son... we set up the stream

 

[Rubyiris]

oh that's cool.

 

[leffen]

Looks like ill be able to make it to Genesis. And my flu's gone ( so ill flake in on marth / fox soon ).

Life's good

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yeee! Thats tight leffen.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Congrats man! <3

 

[Tee ay eye]

how do i gimp yoshi

other than summoning a meteor to kill all the dinosaurs

 

[Beat!]

Try playing PAL.

Marth's dair is a Meteor smash here.

 

[Velox]

Try playing Brawl.

It sucks.

 

[Mind Trick]

how do i gimp yoshi

other than summoning a meteor to kill all the dinosaurs

(assuming you play marth vs yoshi here)
hit him out of djc
wait for the weight increase to end on double jump (or get consistent tippers, anything else will be taken like a boss and countered)
dtilt ECE if imperfect
hit him out of downB to edge

thats it
meaning if a yoshi plays smart and somewhat unpredictable, gl to you


or pick sheik

 

[Beat!]

Are you saying Yoshi wins that matchup?

 

[darkgirku]

I'd say he was just saying marth just has trouble edgeguarding yoshi.
Dunno though

 

[Beat!]

Oh yeah lol, forgot the question was about gimps Xd

 

[Mind Trick]

I think Marth has a slight advantage, but Yoshi gets a lot from being a relatively unknown character to play against, so silly tricks work more often than they should.

 

[~Twitch~]

egg lay has pretty good priority, if i come down from a dblj while i'm recovering then it usually works.

 

[Nogzor'z]

egg lay has pretty good priority, if i come down from a dblj while i'm recovering then it usually works.

That's a rather large risk to take though.... Marth might attack early enough for his sword to outrange Egg lay.
Unless you ment egglay AS SOON as you land from your DJ.

EDIT*
Lol I was still thinking about the marth v Yoshi matchup.

that tactic actually does work somewhat well against characters with short range

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think Marth has a slight advantage, but Yoshi gets a lot from being a relatively unknown character to play against, so silly tricks work more often than they should.

how safe is it to dj into marth aerials with your own?

 

[yoshiiscool]

DJ goes through everything up to wicked high %ages, except for a sweetspotted spike, which annihilates it at really low ones. The second best thing besides spike that breaks the double jump for marth as far as aerials are concerned, would be a tipped f-air, but that doesn't work until around 120ish, I think. Not positive on any exact percentages though. To say it bluntly, Marth is not safe in the air vs yoshi. Also to make it even worse, his aerials approaches are extremely predictable and not very safe, making them great parry fodder.

I find him nigh unbeatable while he's on the ground, playing defensively though.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Yeah... I agree, marth defense when he's playing smart against yoshi makes the match difficult.

I love how ineffective his aerial approaches sometimes.

 

[Mind Trick]

DJ goes through everything up to wicked high %ages, except for a sweetspotted spike, which annihilates it at really low ones. The second best thing besides spike that breaks the double jump for marth as far as aerials are concerned, would be a tipped f-air, but that doesn't work until around 120ish, I think. Not positive on any exact percentages though. To say it bluntly, Marth is not safe in the air vs yoshi. Also to make it even worse, his aerials approaches are extremely predictable and not very safe, making them great parry fodder.

I find him nigh unbeatable while he's on the ground, playing defensively though.

Yoshi lives to much higher %'s though and can't be gimped as easily as the other way around imo. Also his combo's on marth are much better than marth's combo's on yoshi, so that kinda evens it up a little.

Egglay on recovery sounds like a sure way to get yourself killed lol
I've seen Vman use it though from the ledge (also very risky) and he made it work somehow lol... but the reward vs the risk (of being gimped imediately) is def not worth it imo.

 

[yoshiiscool]

Btw, does anyone know how Yoshi reacts to getting hit by the strong hitbox of Marth's up b during his double jump? I don't really recall anyone ever trying it against me xD.

Also as far as yoshi combos vs marth combos, I think they're both pretty negligible, as proper DI tends to stop both, though the thing is that marth can start his combos, or consecutive-hit-strings from an easy grab, and even has DI mixups through the grab. Yoshi does have kinda the same thing though, albeit extremely less abusable, with d-throw and u-throw. U-throw can't really be DIed, and seems to lead to u-air regardless of % on most floaty characters (seriously, this is how I'm starting to kill people now xD, I'm fox-yoshi), whereas d-throw on floaties can lead to a f-air, for more comboing or tech chasing or whatever, but can easily be DIed away to result in nothing. But Yoshi's main combo starter is f-air, which is just ridiculous to hit on a marth in a way to start a good combo I think.

I think Yoshi benefits from his combos more than Marth in this match due to the placement and position advantage you'll get by keeping him up in the air, unless near platforms where it'd be easy to f-air > tech-chase/jab reset d-smash > edgeguard.

Also people who are consistent with tippers will devastate you, especially if they know the rule to fighting yoshi, which is: If you know he's got his double jump, finish your combos early. There's really no excuse for getting comboed by his aerials as Yoshi, since it's always safe to jump out in the air, but definitely have to watch where you decide to jump out if you're in tipper range. I also feel like teching sucks vs marth, so you always have to jump/wiggle out of tumbling, or get punished more. Luckily Yoshi's semi-floaty, so forced techs aren't all that much of a problem in the Marth matchup.

 

[leffen]

what mind trick has said more or less , <3u

and to people getting gimped with yoshi... stop sucking. Yoshi has one of the best recoveries in the game and he should never get gimped.


on another note... im really enjoying yoshi atm... my yoshi play has all started to come together^_^.

I recently started practicing the spacies matchups for my next tournament ( 15-17th of april, I'm gonna go Yoshi only :> ) and I finally mastered parrying :D Its particularly useful against falco and man... does playing on FD gets easier when you can parry every single laser :D I did a couple of powershield -> wavedash oop into grab from half a stage away... its p. cool ;D

Oh and the face ppl make after getting Z2D comboed and 4 stocked by a yoshi is priceless :D


EDIT: Uuhhhh YIC... I reaaally dont agree with you about Yoshis combos being negligible versus marth... have you tried using uair?
Not only do you usually get 3-5 uairs into a nair / fair , it also deals A LOT more damage than marths combos ( he cant really use tippers to combo you ).
And what DI mixups do marth have with throws? just DI away and tech or something >_> ( and marth is really bad at punishing tech vs floaties ), and yoshis dthrow is amazing since even if you dont get an uair you still put him in a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE position.

Side note: B attacks in general break Yoshi's double jump armor way faster than normal A attacks. Thats why marths should always use Shield breaker over Fsmash to edge guard you ( though timing a good airdodge / wall jump teching beats this everytime ) and it also means that a reverse up b will work decently though if you miss you should die for sure ( nojump+dsmashsupbaby ) sooo yeah.

and ppl, dont ever jab reset when you are gonna downsmash someone... esp on platforms. They can sdi jab and / or cc tech the dsmash way to easy...
when people miss the tech, just react with a dsmash, they are in a loooot of lag after missing techs and dsmash is really fast.

 

[yoshiiscool]

I don't find u-air to f-air being all that reliable, because it seems situational, like position and percentage based. Of course the combos I was talking about were u-air btw, what other combos does Yoshi even have? xD My point was, yea we get some u-airs in, but it's harder to get in on a good Marth player in my opinion, so even if the combo itself is pretty easy to pull off and nets us damage and position, it's still relatively comparable to what Marth can do to Yoshi since his openings are easier to find.

About his grabs, can't he mixup between mostly forward and down vs yoshi? Also I don't quite get you on the "Marth's bad at tech chasing floaties" why would them being floaty make any difference if he's forcing you to tech for DIing his throw? I guess he might not be able to capitalize as well out of it, but he can still at least regrab pretty damn easily, right?

Thanks for the tip about jab resetting I guess, but do the people you play really SDI the jab that much? If that's the case then doesn't that straight up negate the viability of all jab-reset set-ups?

Also, get vids Leffen, I wanna see Yoshi stuff, start recording xD

 

[Mind Trick]

I don't find u-air to f-air being all that reliable, because it seems situational, like position and percentage based. Of course the combos I was talking about were u-air btw, what other combos does Yoshi even have? xD My point was, yea we get some u-airs in, but it's harder to get in on a good Marth player in my opinion, so even if the combo itself is pretty easy to pull off and nets us damage and position, it's still relatively comparable to what Marth can do to Yoshi since his openings are easier to find.

About his grabs, can't he mixup between mostly forward and down vs yoshi? Also I don't quite get you on the "Marth's bad at tech chasing floaties" why would them being floaty make any difference if he's forcing you to tech for DIing his throw? I guess he might not be able to capitalize as well out of it, but he can still at least regrab pretty damn easily, right?

Thanks for the tip about jab resetting I guess, but do the people you play really SDI the jab that much? If that's the case then doesn't that straight up negate the viability of all jab-reset set-ups?

Also, get vids Leffen, I wanna see Yoshi stuff, start recording xD

I prefer downsmashing immediately over jab reset as well (>40% or something, kinda dependant on position on stage as well). It's pretty easy to hit downsmash on missed techs on reaction if you start looking for it. Even if there's only a slight chance people will sdi, downsmash will hit guaranteed and will probably get worse DI on it as well if you immediately do it. It's a really devastating move on fastfallers if unexpected.

 

[KAOSTAR]

just for the record. when somebody misses a tech...they can't input anything for 26 frames.

I think ppl underestimate djc in general vs floaties. its amazing vs FFs, good on biggems and heavies, at least gives u options on floaties....especially at low percents. just gotta up your tech skill.

another thing to keep in mind about smash in general...positioning is extremely important for combos. there are plenty of situations where things don't combo but they will connect due to your opponent being left with very few options.

marth for instance gets ***** from below.

 

[leffen]

What about uair to fair isnt reliable >_>? of course it doesnt work on all percentages but you can almost always get it from a uair string, esp if they are di:ing to the side.

And it isnt that hard to start uairs strings... your best setup is obv fair / uptilt but you can start em from a lot of stuff... I did some parry -> uair and nair -> uair stuff yesterday ;D

About Marths fthrow / dthrow mixups... they really only work on lighter characters. With yoshi being as heavy as he is you should always have time to adjust your DI, and he really gains nothing by tech chasing you with grabs, his fthrow/dthrow generally deal about 2-5% lol. Everything else marth has is pretty easily sdi able and/or ccable... and he is really bad against yoshis DI away no tech ( be sure to always DI onto the ledges so he cant follow up btw ) since he lags a lot from the throw, his jabreset sucks and his fsmash wont reach :>

and really, what other combo starters does marth really have? 'cept for no-dj-juggles he really shouldnt be stringing attacks on yoshi D:

And yeah, the people I play do SDI the jabs a lot ( on higher percentages just holding up is enough sometimes since his jab kb is increased ) and they also just roll/attack out of the jab resets, esp after I ***** em a couple of times with various jab reset ****

On a totally random note, heres some few tips and tricks Im going to implement into my game:

When spacies / CF DI your dthrows away, you can try to immediately start running(easy and if they dont DI away you can easily just cancel your dash with a jump ) or wavedashing (faster, but harder and less forgiving) after them to Dsmash them before landing ( is really hard to do before high %s, and isnt as effective so I usually just tech chase them normally ).
- Since jab resetting is unreliable I've started using a quick, perfect djc nair/uair to cover their tech in place. If they dont tech in place, you should have enough time to dash grab/dsmash their tech roll, esp if you are close to a edge.
If you do jab reset them, use double jab resets at lower percents into a fair to deal as much damage as possible.

-Start using yoshis IASA frames / his autocancels! Seriously, the window between Yoshis bair's last hitbox and when it starts autocanceling is only THREE FRAMES ( 5 before IASA starts ). Im pretty sure that is the fastest autocanceling attack in the game, and it makes it excellent to combo with. I usually combo it to a Ftilt/ Uptilt but remember that you can use it as a edgeguard by comboing it into a downsmash. Oh, and it works GREAT as a platform tech chase since its low lag and yoshis high mobilty allows you to easily cover most of their options.

But wait, there's moar! Dair also autocancels pretty quickly ( 6 frames after last hitbox ) and you autocancel it by short hopping from a platform or by simply fulljump dairing, both are good situational mixups to catch people jumping at you.
If you fulljump you can either get the last hitbox as close to the ground as possible ( easier to combo from, safer on shield ) or you can do it asap - allowing you to jump and wavedash away/nair/egglay/downb/whatever :D
^The very same thing applies to bair while short jumping it btw :o



Wow this post became really long O_o I'm gonna try get yoshi footage recorded but AJPs computer is still not fixed after BEAST :< In the worst case I'll record some at G2 :D

 

[darkgirku]

I think ppl underestimate djc in general vs floaties. its amazing vs FFs, good on biggems and heavies, at least gives u options on floaties....especially at low percents. just gotta up your tech skill.

Yeah I still think djc counters are underestimated in general. But meh

And Leffen, Can you really cover both tech in place and a tech roll with a quick perfect djc nair/uair to a dsmash/dashgrab? As in, can you always do it framewise before they can buffer out a roll or something?

 

[yoshiiscool]

@ Leffen, I always knew about the b-air cancels, but didn't know about the d-air cancels, so thanks for that. I always kinda thought that b-air short hop double aerials were too hard to pull off consistently, but then again I haven't bothered to do them in years, maybe it's time to try to break them out more often. I always liked the stages with small slants in them, because it gave me a consistent buffer to pull it off perfectly (yoshi's story, and DK64). Sorry about my lack of knowledge vs Marth, that's probably one of my worst matchups... I really haven't played it enough, or for a long time either.

Anyways, for something new now, that I've been doing for the past few months, but was kinda questioning posting here for awhile. I haven't really heard many people talk about the options out of parrying, and it seems like people have overlooked using the double jump to land after your parry. I've been parrying to DJL so that I can use any ground attack to launch a combo, or use it to kill with d-smash. It's pretty ****ing amazing, but it's definitely the hardest thing to do technically out of a parry, and also gives you the most freedom. Just something to think about, I guess. I've used it with some decent success.

 

[darkgirku]

Anyways, for something new now, that I've been doing for the past few months, but was kinda questioning posting here for awhile. I haven't really heard many people talk about the options out of parrying, and it seems like people have overlooked using the double jump to land after your parry. I've been parrying to DJL so that I can use any ground attack to launch a combo, or use it to kill with d-smash. It's pretty ****ing amazing, but it's definitely the hardest thing to do technically out of a parry, and also gives you the most freedom. Just something to think about, I guess. I've used it with some decent success.

yeah do0de! We thought of this a while back too, just haven't tried much with it.
Really does sound awesome

 

[leffen]

The great thing about double jump landings is that you dont suffer any landing lag ( 4 frames when you land normally ) . There are also some different timings on the dj landing - I think with perfect timing you can start your attack on the 8th frame, which is pretty god damn fast considering most attacks create ~6 frames of hitlag ( which you dont suffer from :D ).

Im gonna try find a way to do it consistently... its probably easier if you get used to sliding your thumb from Y to X or use tap jump, imo just timing 2 quick button presses is hella hard and sliding puts less pressure on your thumb


Oh on a random note... when fox / falco do spaced bair on your shield ( usually from dropping of platforms / Fulljumps ) I've found that the best way of punishing is just parrying -> grab :D It also works vs marths / sheiks / peach fair :>

 

[yoshiiscool]

Are you sure it's possible to parrygrab peach's and marth's spaced f-airs? They seem like if spaced properly they'd either be too far away, or be able to jab/dash away since both have such little lag (esp considering float-canceling) I'll have to try it out/see it to believe it, but I can kinda believe sheiks f-air, and the spacie's b-airs would get caught by it. Also how fast is parrygrab compared to WD f-tilt, or something like that after a parry, maybe even a DJL f-smash for range.

 

[Taj278]

how do i gimp yoshi

other than summoning a meteor to kill all the dinosaurs

Tezuka is the only available method.

 

[Mind Trick]

meanwhile in japan..............

in other news, Im attending some tourneys again and going all Yoshi probably
havent played at all for about 3 months though, with working every sat/sun, and mvc3+ps3 replacing ssbm+gc
I wonder if other fighting game exp transfers over to some extent, I think I might be able to play more patient with all the **** people throw at you in mvc xD

 

[Nogzor'z]

I hope it goes well... Good luck.
Yoshi <3

And I'd assume that some general knowledge/tactics are applicable in almost all fighting games, But what do I know?

 

[yoshiiscool]

**** from traditional fighting games definitely comes through in smash, as far as basics are concerned. Footsies and spacing and **** are all half the other games are. Good **** though MT, get some vids up ^^

Also, ewwwwwww MVC3... I tried to take that seriously for about a week or two, but I just couldn't handle the bull****. Dat Melty though <3

 

[Mind Trick]

I think there's gonna be recording yeah.

About mvc3; I'm guessing you're talking about the rage inducing online play of most players? xD

Yeah, sometimes I guess you lose and you think you shouldnt have lost to that person ( because xfc shenanigans, rewarding lame playstyles, w/e) but it feels great to stomp those people in the ground as well :D

My point character is actually exactly what you would expect from a Yoshi player lol, I'll let you guess that one

I'm mostly offline though, so not that much rage for me :D

 

[yoshiiscool]

I'm gonna guess Hulk, because he's green and has stupid super armor <cough>...

You got it right with xfactor shenanigans though, but that's not all, it's the fact that everybody's squishy and dies in one combo. **** up once, and your point char's pretty much gone. Also most of the combos are ridiculously easy too, unless you play fancy style zero or X23(<3). Oh right, I hate chip damage too, but that's always been in MVC... even so I still think MVC3 is the brawl of the MVC series

 

[Mind Trick]

I'm gonna guess Hulk, because he's green and has stupid super armor <cough>...

You got it right with xfactor shenanigans though, but that's not all, it's the fact that everybody's squishy and dies in one combo. **** up once, and your point char's pretty much gone. Also most of the combos are ridiculously easy too, unless you play fancy style zero or X23(<3). Oh right, I hate chip damage too, but that's always been in MVC... even so I still think MVC3 is the brawl of the MVC series

You guessed right, love that super armor :D (+doom/x23)

I've never played any other mvc's before 3, but your description makes it sound more like the ssb64 of the series

 

[Winnar]

So I played yoshi for the first time in a long time the other day and for the first time in an even longer time I had fun in doing so :D