darkgirku
Smash Journeyman
Lol think ima work on my good ol yoshi next time I play too. Even if it hasta be yoshi ditto's with nog xD
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Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)
- Thread starter Taj278
- Start date
AXE 09
Smash Master
Pleeeeeease come to another AZ tourney!!!
darkgirku
Smash Journeyman
Lol we're trying for the 5th
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
cool beans.
AXE 09
Smash Master
Are you serious!? Dude please try your best to be there! Most of AZ's best players are gonna be there, including ones that are considered "retired." Believe me, you won't wanna miss it.
I wanna see my buddy Vman
darkgirku
Smash Journeyman
Yeah i've been reading the thread ahaha.... i really wanna go. Good chance that we'll show up, but i dunno o.0
I'd love to play meleee with all you guys. I didn't even really get to play you n taj last time lol
I'd love to play meleee with all you guys. I didn't even really get to play you n taj last time lol
YOSHIDO
Smash Ace
Shoot how bout that pound V hmmmm?
darkgirku
Smash Journeyman
Lol I wish I could go.
Maaaaybe Genesis 2
Maaaaybe Genesis 2
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
meh poundv sucks. ;D
YOSHIDO
Smash Ace
aww lol sigh, I guess no yoshi vs random peeps crew battle
darkgirku
Smash Journeyman
haha That would be cool though
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Angel got 7th at AZ's last monthly, beating Coti (oldschool sheik main) and me.
AXE 09
Smash Master
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Nogzor'z is a beast.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Angel has magical avoid the recording setup when he wins powers.
All of his sets recorded are games he loses.
All of his sets recorded are games he loses.
AXE 09
Smash Master
I just wanted to ask... Based on that match, how can you guys still think egg lay is a bad move??
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
@ Rubyiris: Not like it matters. You can tell how good he is even when he loses. Lol.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I've been saying egg lay is a good move for a very long time, but bad Yoshi mains and mediocre Falcos who think they have a yoshi from Europe think otherwise.
But yeah he narrowly lost to Okami, did fairly well vs Axe, and squeaked out wins vs South Paw and I. I think that's respectable for a Yoshi main. Lost to very good players, and also managed to beat other very good players in the process.
But yeah he narrowly lost to Okami, did fairly well vs Axe, and squeaked out wins vs South Paw and I. I think that's respectable for a Yoshi main. Lost to very good players, and also managed to beat other very good players in the process.
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
I honestly thought it confirmed my thought on egglay being a ****ty option watching the match against Axe ;P
but I don't even play Yoshi anymore against non-marth/jiggs stuff, so don't mind me (A)
but I don't even play Yoshi anymore against non-marth/jiggs stuff, so don't mind me (A)
AXE 09
Smash Master
I don't understand you guys who say egg lay is so bad. Maybe there's just something wrong with AZ =/
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Our match wasn't really that great of a representation of how I think egglay is a useful tool.
EXCEPT maybe the last stock of our the first match.
Whatever, Some day I'll be able to get recordings of legitimate uses of egglay in competitive matches.
Lolol at AZ being Skewed somehow
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
wow...
I'm done with the yoshi boards lol
darkgirku
Smash Journeyman
. . . Sad day
YOSHIDO
Smash Ace
Awwww Sniff sniff. This is why we have Pound V
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Your Mario *****, Darkgirku.
leffen
Smash Champion
I've been saying egg lay is a bad move for a very long time, but bad Yoshi mains and mediocre Falcos who think they have a yoshi from AZ think otherwise.
See what i did thar++++1+1+?
Lol go **** off and die in a cave Rubyiris. I dont care if you think have aspergers or what the **** your mental problem is but just STOP BEING AN ***.
I dont think you can even process the thought of AZ not being better than mine / mind tricks region ( not saying they are, but everything points to it ). Angel getting 7th in a monthly with 20 entrants does not prove hes far better than yoshis you havent even seen.
@Axe.
You still havent even tried to explore your options versus egg lay have you? I dont see you waiting in the egg, DIng, wavedashing out of it etc.
I didnt say it wouldnt work in tournaments ( because everyone sucks against it ), I said its p. much worthless versus people who do adapt to it.
Does someone spamming laser to fsmash and succeeding with it make laser to fsmash a viable tool? Exactly.
@Angel.
Good ****, I dont like to play as you but its really interesting watching a new playstyle It seems like you perfectly merged a brawl playstyle with melee :D
See what i did thar++++1+1+?
Lol go **** off and die in a cave Rubyiris. I dont care if you think have aspergers or what the **** your mental problem is but just STOP BEING AN ***.
I dont think you can even process the thought of AZ not being better than mine / mind tricks region ( not saying they are, but everything points to it ). Angel getting 7th in a monthly with 20 entrants does not prove hes far better than yoshis you havent even seen.
@Axe.
You still havent even tried to explore your options versus egg lay have you? I dont see you waiting in the egg, DIng, wavedashing out of it etc.
I didnt say it wouldnt work in tournaments ( because everyone sucks against it ), I said its p. much worthless versus people who do adapt to it.
Does someone spamming laser to fsmash and succeeding with it make laser to fsmash a viable tool? Exactly.
@Angel.
Good ****, I dont like to play as you but its really interesting watching a new playstyle
It seems like you perfectly merged a brawl playstyle with melee :D
Rubyiris is tactless, but the points for egg lay being viable are still valid. Your example of laser to fsmash isn't the best analogy because it actually does work in specific situations. Laser resets and hitting an opponent right before they land come to mind. Something being "spammable" is not the same as something being "viable."
My two cents if you want to read it.
My two cents if you want to read it.
Maybe I missed something and hopefully you can clarify, but how exactly is egg lay a bad move when it is free damage, positioning, and a seemingly viable mix up on players that shield? It is almost like saying Bowser's forward B is a bad move. Just because other characters may have a move that is similar and better doesn't necessarily make it a "bad" move.
Just observing the move being used as a mix up on shielding opponents gives it viability. Mewtwo's disable and confusion are definitely bad moves, and to me a bad move is something that actually isn't complete or doesn't work.
Mewtwo can get back aired by almost every character when he lands confusion, and disable doesn't have enough stun. I'd say a move is good if it gives you a viable mix up, and you don't actually get punished from landing it. Whether the move has a lot of utility or low utility doesn't matter as long as it has a specific use that isn't punishable for succeeding whether the opponent can make decisions after being hit by it or not. I make it work, because I understand that many people aren't prepared for it, and I use it sparingly. I still get utility out of it, but for the time being, you could argue that even the most incomplete moves are "useful" until punishes become more common. That's the strength of an underplayed character.
If the move puts the Yoshi player in position for his own reads/predictions, it is a good move. They DI left or right, Yoshi can move into position to punish it. IF they DI off stage, then they're in position to get edgeguarded. If they sit in the egg, the Yoshi can get in position to wait for break and from there you can determine if you want to pursue it further, stay in the pocket, counter the opponent's aerial when he breaks it with your parry/djc/sidestep, or back off.
It's kind of like Peach's neutral B. The way it has developed for a few Peach players, it has mild amounts of utility, it can be used a couple of times a match, it stalls for recovery reasons, it is a counter, you don't get punished when it connects, and evidence from tourney matches shows that it is practical for it to connect against a wide variety of players. Not every Peach player uses it, most playstyles don't require it, but some players have managed to use it effectively.
Just observing the move being used as a mix up on shielding opponents gives it viability. Mewtwo's disable and confusion are definitely bad moves, and to me a bad move is something that actually isn't complete or doesn't work.
Mewtwo can get back aired by almost every character when he lands confusion, and disable doesn't have enough stun. I'd say a move is good if it gives you a viable mix up, and you don't actually get punished from landing it. Whether the move has a lot of utility or low utility doesn't matter as long as it has a specific use that isn't punishable for succeeding whether the opponent can make decisions after being hit by it or not. I make it work, because I understand that many people aren't prepared for it, and I use it sparingly. I still get utility out of it, but for the time being, you could argue that even the most incomplete moves are "useful" until punishes become more common. That's the strength of an underplayed character.
If the move puts the Yoshi player in position for his own reads/predictions, it is a good move. They DI left or right, Yoshi can move into position to punish it. IF they DI off stage, then they're in position to get edgeguarded. If they sit in the egg, the Yoshi can get in position to wait for break and from there you can determine if you want to pursue it further, stay in the pocket, counter the opponent's aerial when he breaks it with your parry/djc/sidestep, or back off.
It's kind of like Peach's neutral B. The way it has developed for a few Peach players, it has mild amounts of utility, it can be used a couple of times a match, it stalls for recovery reasons, it is a counter, you don't get punished when it connects, and evidence from tourney matches shows that it is practical for it to connect against a wide variety of players. Not every Peach player uses it, most playstyles don't require it, but some players have managed to use it effectively.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Egglay also has one of the best hitbox-to-hurtbox ratios in the whole Yoshi character (and it can be used as an AIR move). Definitely useful. Lol.
AXE 09
Smash Master
Pretty awesome set between Angel and AZ's best Sheik main:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WR2VpKV2Yg
But I agree with Taj about everything in the above post.
Leffen, although there were only 20 entrants, All of AZ's top 10 players entered with the exception of Taj and Jetfour. I promise you, AZ's top 10 aren't to be taken lightly. The fact that Angel placed 7th at this tourney (losing only to myself and AZ's best Sheik main) means a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WR2VpKV2Yg
But I agree with Taj about everything in the above post.
Leffen, although there were only 20 entrants, All of AZ's top 10 players entered with the exception of Taj and Jetfour. I promise you, AZ's top 10 aren't to be taken lightly. The fact that Angel placed 7th at this tourney (losing only to myself and AZ's best Sheik main) means a lot.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
It's generally a good idea to ignore leffen since he talks like he knows things but has nothing to show for it.
Egg lay *****.
Egg lay *****.
leffen
Smash Champion
@AXE
I never said it should be taken lightly, but Rubyiris implied international tournaments with 100+ entrants and experience versus players like Amsah was crap while acting like placing 7th at a 20 man tournament was like inventing electricity.
Honestly though, I wouldnt really weigh AZs top ten that heavily, its nothing compared to Socal/Norcal's. AZs ~Top 3 is what really shines in the region IMHO.
@ Chivalruse. ... You can make any move seem good, doesnt make it so unfortunately.
@ Taj
How is laser to fsmash NOT a good analogy? It works in tournament even tho it shouldnt, spammed it becomes even more useless and it has a few uses ( egg lay works well in some spots / some characters ) but it isnt a solid choice.
At the other stuff:
You honestly think a lot like I do, you just word it better My only point were that it loses A LOT of its usefulness if you use it versus players who are able to adapt, and its risk - reward is incredibly twisted ( just like Disable, which basically only works because people dont overuse it ).
Egg lay does force them to do something, but if the player knows how to fight egg lay it doesnt put the yoshi in advantage because of the chosen breakout **** and invincibility frames.
In every single on of your examples, you put Yoshi as the one who makes the first move. Versus a good player, he never does.
Your opponent checks if he wants to position himself and the yoshi has to move away from the egg to avoid punishment. Your opponent decides when he wants to attack you if you are too close or just wavedash with full invincibility.
Saying Yoshi is in advantage is like saying spacies are in advantage when they are thrown of the ledge by a Sheik. Of course, you can turn the situation to your favor, but the risk vs the reward is not worth it.
EDIT: Rubyiris:
It's generally a good idea to ignore Rubyiris since he talks like he knows things but has nothing to show for it. ( Nothing to show for it? Oh yeah its you guys again. Armada had nothing to show for him before Genesis, right. If it isnt America it doesnt matter, and if its America it isnt my state, and if its my state then it doesnt apply to me, and if it does apply it doesnt because its america ).
Egg lay is overrated.
If you question this then maybe we should count just how many that ignore you because your self centered personality? I bet the numbers would be three digits or more.
I never said it should be taken lightly, but Rubyiris implied international tournaments with 100+ entrants and experience versus players like Amsah was crap while acting like placing 7th at a 20 man tournament was like inventing electricity.
Honestly though, I wouldnt really weigh AZs top ten that heavily, its nothing compared to Socal/Norcal's. AZs ~Top 3 is what really shines in the region IMHO.
@ Chivalruse. ... You can make any move seem good, doesnt make it so unfortunately.
@ Taj
How is laser to fsmash NOT a good analogy? It works in tournament even tho it shouldnt, spammed it becomes even more useless and it has a few uses ( egg lay works well in some spots / some characters ) but it isnt a solid choice.
At the other stuff:
You honestly think a lot like I do, you just word it better
My only point were that it loses A LOT of its usefulness if you use it versus players who are able to adapt, and its risk - reward is incredibly twisted ( just like Disable, which basically only works because people dont overuse it ).Egg lay does force them to do something, but if the player knows how to fight egg lay it doesnt put the yoshi in advantage because of the chosen breakout **** and invincibility frames.
In every single on of your examples, you put Yoshi as the one who makes the first move. Versus a good player, he never does.
Your opponent checks if he wants to position himself and the yoshi has to move away from the egg to avoid punishment. Your opponent decides when he wants to attack you if you are too close or just wavedash with full invincibility.
Saying Yoshi is in advantage is like saying spacies are in advantage when they are thrown of the ledge by a Sheik. Of course, you can turn the situation to your favor, but the risk vs the reward is not worth it.
EDIT: Rubyiris:
It's generally a good idea to ignore Rubyiris since he talks like he knows things but has nothing to show for it. ( Nothing to show for it? Oh yeah its you guys again. Armada had nothing to show for him before Genesis, right. If it isnt America it doesnt matter, and if its America it isnt my state, and if its my state then it doesnt apply to me, and if it does apply it doesnt because its america ).
Egg lay is overrated.
If you question this then maybe we should count just how many that ignore you because your self centered personality? I bet the numbers would be three digits or more.
AXE 09
Smash Master
Egg lay is overrated? I think it's underrated. I feel like the only people who think that it's a good or decent move is AZ. Everyone else seems to say that it's "a very bad move."
I think when Ruby said that you have nothing to show for it, he meant that you don't have any videos for proof of your high level Yoshi play. The only proof that I know of from you is your relatively high tournament placing at BEAST, but if I'm correct, you didn't use Yoshi at all in the bracket. I might have heard wrong though so correct me if I am.
As of right now, I still believe that Egg Lay is a good move. I've seen way too much proof and too many examples of its uses to think otherwise.
I think when Ruby said that you have nothing to show for it, he meant that you don't have any videos for proof of your high level Yoshi play. The only proof that I know of from you is your relatively high tournament placing at BEAST, but if I'm correct, you didn't use Yoshi at all in the bracket. I might have heard wrong though so correct me if I am.
As of right now, I still believe that Egg Lay is a good move. I've seen way too much proof and too many examples of its uses to think otherwise.
leffen
Smash Champion
Nah, its mostly me and mindtrick who says its a bad move.
So because I have no tournament placing with Yoshi my opinion is unvalid? Oh that explains why you worship V3ctorman Rubyiris... No wait it doesnt!
As of right now, I believe that God created the world in 7days. I've seen way too much proof and too many examples of this to think otherwise. Therefore I will not learn anything new about it and I will not open my mind to any other theories.
So because I have no tournament placing with Yoshi my opinion is unvalid? Oh that explains why you worship V3ctorman Rubyiris... No wait it doesnt!
As of right now, I believe that God created the world in 7days. I've seen way too much proof and too many examples of this to think otherwise. Therefore I will not learn anything new about it and I will not open my mind to any other theories.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Okay let's stop arguing from this perspective. Leffen, can you tell us what tools Yoshi has that would work better than egg lay in the many situations when players like Vman and Angel are using it?
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Heh, Thanks. Although I'm not sure what you meant by it, specifically. Thanks though, really.@Angel.
Good ****, I dont like to play as you but its really interesting watching a new playstyle
I might regret jumping into this but, While you say that egglay is overrated and AXE says that it is underrated, I feel like its NOT EVEN rated. I mean, sure some people from the yoshis boards says its a good move while others says it is a bad move, but I'm sure most other players probably... Don't care. And maybe this is why it will catch opponents by surprise until they decide to get used to it and always be ready for it (if that ever happens). But I still see it as a shield mix up between using dash grabs, shield pressuring with djc nairs/jabs, and spaced aerials and tilts.
AXE 09
Smash Master
I think it's more because you don't have any video proof, and I don't think there's any other way we could see your Yoshi (unless you have livestream or something). At this point, your Yoshi could be either Armada status or RandomFoxUser233 status as far as we know. We have no way of telling how good you are.
And whether you're good or not does not make your opinion invalid. You don't have to place high in a tournament to give advice about Yoshi. You just have to have the knowledge. I just can't accept that it's a bad move unless I actually see it's bad for myself. Based on the videos of the most recent AZ tourney, and also from what I've experienced in person against both Angel and V3ctorman, I say it's a good move.
Laser to forward smash is a bad analogy because it is a legitimate combo, just like with any good combo or link, you have to deny the spacing and initial hit required.@AXE
I never said it should be taken lightly, but Rubyiris implied international tournaments with 100+ entrants and experience versus players like Amsah was crap while acting like placing 7th at a 20 man tournament was like inventing electricity.
Honestly though, I wouldnt really weigh AZs top ten that heavily, its nothing compared to Socal/Norcal's. AZs ~Top 3 is what really shines in the region IMHO.
@ Taj
How is laser to fsmash NOT a good analogy? It works in tournament even tho it shouldnt, spammed it becomes even more useless and it has a few uses ( egg lay works well in some spots / some characters ) but it isnt a solid choice.
At the other stuff:
You honestly think a lot like I do, you just word it better
Egg lay does force them to do something, but if the player knows how to fight egg lay it doesnt put the yoshi in advantage because of the chosen breakout **** and invincibility frames.
In every single on of your examples, you put Yoshi as the one who makes the first move. Versus a good player, he never does.
Your opponent checks if he wants to position himself and the yoshi has to move away from the egg to avoid punishment. Your opponent decides when he wants to attack you if you are too close or just wavedash with full invincibility.
Saying Yoshi is in advantage is like saying spacies are in advantage when they are thrown of the ledge by a Sheik. Of course, you can turn the situation to your favor, but the risk vs the reward is not worth it.
EDIT: Rubyiris:
It's generally a good idea to ignore Rubyiris since he talks like he knows things but has nothing to show for it. ( Nothing to show for it? Oh yeah its you guys again. Armada had nothing to show for him before Genesis, right. If it isnt America it doesnt matter, and if its America it isnt my state, and if its my state then it doesnt apply to me, and if it does apply it doesnt because its america ).
Egg lay is overrated.
If you question this then maybe we should count just how many that ignore you because your self centered personality? I bet the numbers would be three digits or more.
It's like saying that Marth's forward smash isn't viable. You can't walk around spamming it, and there are plenty of ways around it if the opponent is ready for it and punishes it. (Wavedash out of shield, side steps, shield grabs, jabs before start up.) It is a move that has to be spaced, and is only effective as a combo in certain situations and its effectiveness varies based on the character it is used on.
Yoshi's risk vs. reward of throwing it out seems to be in line with a lot of things he would throw out except it goes through shields instead of having to be spaced against shield grabs. I can't see how that is a bad move. I also still can't see how knowing that a move is coming makes it a bad move, too.
The point I was making with Mewtwo was that you got punished HARD for landing it once the opponent has knowledge of that attack's mechanics. Is it safe to say that you're at least guaranteed a reset against any human opponent for actually landing it? I could also argue that until the general high level player base actually implements counters, that it would still be viable. Though I can completely understand and concede on this point if you regularly play against people that do effectively counter Egglay upon its connection and not necessarily the execution. Evidence still shows that it is reasonably viable to land against most opponents as a mixup and I'm pretty convinced that you don't get punished for connecting with it if you decide to back off and reset positioning entirely.
All I'm really trying to say is that the move isn't bad. It's certainly not great in comparison to other characters' moves, but it appears to be a reasonable tool in tournament.
Whether Yoshi throws out the attack first or not is irrelevant in the sense that if your opponent is throwing out attacks, Yoshi has other tools to counter that. It is obviously not impossible for Yoshi to attack an opponent or start forcing shield use. I don't think that reasoning is particularly effective since almost everything fails if the other person does an attack earlier than you do. (For example, Marth's forward smash beating jabs do to priority, grabs beating jabs due to grab priority, etc.)
On a bit of a tangent, but in response to your Rubyiris comments...
Isn't having something to show for it how everything works? Armada was the underdog coming into an American tournament for the first time and proved to us firsthand that he was the real deal? I don't see anything wrong with that. We had an idea that Amsah was also a good player, but we weren't quite sure until he came and tapped, too. Hell, people had no idea I had a good Mewtwo until I started going to more out of state tournaments myself, vids and all. For a while, only the West Coast had any idea of how well my Mewtwo could perform. Same thing with Axe's Pikachu.
We have video evidence of it working pretty well against good players, but we're lacking evidence of it actually backfiring consistently against good players. For the time being, I guess all I can really give you is the benefit of the doubt, but invincibility and all, I'm still convinced egglay is a viable mix up until proven otherwise.
All I can say for now is that, I'm confident that our Yoshi mains will continue to develop it and prove reasonable viability soon. :D
yoshiiscool
Smash Journeyman
@Nogzor - Holy hell you've improved quite a bit, (or at least gotten used to tourney pressure) I'm impressed, keep it up. I really like your choice of moves in your approaches, but one big mistake I've seen is that you normally aren't that great at following up once you do land your openings. Something I've been doing a lot recently is ending juggles early with f-air to give myself better position, and tech-chase to continue pressure/combos, just a recommendation to give it a shot, because it's the best possible option on the floatier cast like marth, sheik, pika, etc. Your intelligence IMO makes you a much better player than vman, who honestly to me is just a bit too flashy for his own good, and neglects the precision spacing and defensive abilities Yoshi has to offer, so keep it up please, looking forward for more.
On the topic of the egg-lay debate... I'm just sick of it, honestly. Let me first just state, I hate egg-lay, and I don't really see it as a useful tactic at all, but I'll state why in a second. There are clearly pros and cons to it, so maybe I'll just list the ones I can think of I guess: Pros are that it's an aerial grab, an option to punish shields, and if it's unexpected it can lead to a minor amount of damage/misuse of double jumps upon breaking out/other technical ****-ups that can sometimes be punished. Cons to me are it's hitbox and start-up make it relatively difficult to hit with, wind down is pretty ridiculous if it misses as well. With good reactions the opponent can break out before you're able to do any damage or even position yourself properly for things you expect after, it also gives invincibility frames after the break out meaning we can't punish breakouts on reaction but are forced to wait/bait. Now the most important part to me, it takes the opponent from being in a defensive position (and therefore your advantage) to an almost guaranteed reset of positions. You will never be able to use egg-lay as an "oh ****" move to get yourself out of pressure or bad positioning, because this move is too laggy and precise to actually hit with in order to bail yourself out of bad situations for a reset.
Having said that, I'd like to just point out that higher-level melee is most definitely all about a collection mindgames, and spacing, and follow-ups. We use our mindgames and spacing to create openings in order to follow up for kills. So if this is the way you're trying to play the game, why would you opt for a move that will take your opponent from a disadvantaged spot where you are in control and more likely to get that opening you're looking for, to a point where you're reset to a neutral position. It just doesn't make sense to me when I look at it this way. The only point to it would be to condition your opponent to expect it, and roll/sidestep, so that you can in turn predict and punish the dodging options. But again the situation arises what's worse, eating a combo starter for trying to dodge the egg-lay, or just taking the 7% and reset from the egglay itself?
Also, Bowsers aerial grab is maaaaaaaaaaaaad gooooooooooooooood. It can be used as either a KO move (b-throw is one of the most powerful throws in the game) and a combo starter (I'm pretty sure I've seen DJN 0-death spacies from f-throw set-ups). Like holy **** guys, these two moves aren't comparable at all, and it also has a great hitbox/a actually HITbox as well if you misspace it. There's not much you can actually compare egg-lay to, but let me try. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't play Falco, but it kinda reminds me of his grab game in general. Falco obviously has a lot of options to pressure, and punish, and his ideal is to find an opening for shine/d-air/u-tilt to start combos, but his grab is always there as an option. Unfortunately though, the best you can normally get out of a grab is a b-air, or a reset depending on spacing/%age/matchup situation etc. Only difference is Falco normally thrives on neutral positions, so this still isn't a terrible option, as opposed to Yoshi not quite digging the neutrals, and also (most likely) getting less damage in on his reset.
To me egg-lay is just as bad as d-tilt, because of the same reasons. We work hard as Yoshi players to scare our opponents into a bad situation for them, so why would we waste our chance with a move that will end in a reset of positions? For those of you that don't understand that, d-tilt has a set knockback down and away at a pace where as long as the opponent has enough space to roll away, Yoshi cannot do a damn thing to follow-up outside of getting lucky(sound similar?).
@Rubyiris - Words just can't describe how much I ****ing hate you. You're quite possibly one of the stupidest people I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with on the internet, and quite honestly, that's saying something. Nothing you've ever said in this thread has made a damn bit of difference, and your opinions are simply idiotic and sound like they're coming from some crying, offended 12 year old. Even worst of all, you find it necessary to insult anyone who happens to not be from AZ that you know personally, or goes against something that you say or think, criticizing their level of play as if you're some kind of god at this game. Let me tell you, buddy, I've seen a few of your vids, and I can't sit idly by while you ride your high horse of thinking you're something special when you QUITE CLEARLY are HORRIBLE at this game. So let me just say this, you arrogant *******. I'm taking your ****ing money if/when I meet you, with my Yoshi too, since I'm one of those "Yoshi mains that doesn't know how to play his own character." Go ahead and back down if you want you little *****, it wouldn't surprise me.
tl/dr: Money match me?
Now that that's all out of the way, I have to say I really dislike what's happening to these yoshi boards, they used to be such a chill place where everybody was pretty friendly and relaxed, but now it seems like there's just arguing, or it's a place for AZ people to come flaunt themselves. I'm honestly not buying the vman super modesty act, as this ****in thread has been up and prosperous since the second week he's even played Yoshi, and not once have I seen him take a critiquing post very seriously, as if he actually always assumed himself to be the best without fail, and was only posting vids to show off. I'm just tired of this entire board, which is why I don't post anymore. Seriously, guys... who cares? Just relax. Oh well, whatever, I'm out.
On the topic of the egg-lay debate... I'm just sick of it, honestly. Let me first just state, I hate egg-lay, and I don't really see it as a useful tactic at all, but I'll state why in a second. There are clearly pros and cons to it, so maybe I'll just list the ones I can think of I guess: Pros are that it's an aerial grab, an option to punish shields, and if it's unexpected it can lead to a minor amount of damage/misuse of double jumps upon breaking out/other technical ****-ups that can sometimes be punished. Cons to me are it's hitbox and start-up make it relatively difficult to hit with, wind down is pretty ridiculous if it misses as well. With good reactions the opponent can break out before you're able to do any damage or even position yourself properly for things you expect after, it also gives invincibility frames after the break out meaning we can't punish breakouts on reaction but are forced to wait/bait. Now the most important part to me, it takes the opponent from being in a defensive position (and therefore your advantage) to an almost guaranteed reset of positions. You will never be able to use egg-lay as an "oh ****" move to get yourself out of pressure or bad positioning, because this move is too laggy and precise to actually hit with in order to bail yourself out of bad situations for a reset.
Having said that, I'd like to just point out that higher-level melee is most definitely all about a collection mindgames, and spacing, and follow-ups. We use our mindgames and spacing to create openings in order to follow up for kills. So if this is the way you're trying to play the game, why would you opt for a move that will take your opponent from a disadvantaged spot where you are in control and more likely to get that opening you're looking for, to a point where you're reset to a neutral position. It just doesn't make sense to me when I look at it this way. The only point to it would be to condition your opponent to expect it, and roll/sidestep, so that you can in turn predict and punish the dodging options. But again the situation arises what's worse, eating a combo starter for trying to dodge the egg-lay, or just taking the 7% and reset from the egglay itself?
Also, Bowsers aerial grab is maaaaaaaaaaaaad gooooooooooooooood. It can be used as either a KO move (b-throw is one of the most powerful throws in the game) and a combo starter (I'm pretty sure I've seen DJN 0-death spacies from f-throw set-ups). Like holy **** guys, these two moves aren't comparable at all, and it also has a great hitbox/a actually HITbox as well if you misspace it. There's not much you can actually compare egg-lay to, but let me try. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't play Falco, but it kinda reminds me of his grab game in general. Falco obviously has a lot of options to pressure, and punish, and his ideal is to find an opening for shine/d-air/u-tilt to start combos, but his grab is always there as an option. Unfortunately though, the best you can normally get out of a grab is a b-air, or a reset depending on spacing/%age/matchup situation etc. Only difference is Falco normally thrives on neutral positions, so this still isn't a terrible option, as opposed to Yoshi not quite digging the neutrals, and also (most likely) getting less damage in on his reset.
To me egg-lay is just as bad as d-tilt, because of the same reasons. We work hard as Yoshi players to scare our opponents into a bad situation for them, so why would we waste our chance with a move that will end in a reset of positions? For those of you that don't understand that, d-tilt has a set knockback down and away at a pace where as long as the opponent has enough space to roll away, Yoshi cannot do a damn thing to follow-up outside of getting lucky(sound similar?).
@Rubyiris - Words just can't describe how much I ****ing hate you. You're quite possibly one of the stupidest people I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with on the internet, and quite honestly, that's saying something. Nothing you've ever said in this thread has made a damn bit of difference, and your opinions are simply idiotic and sound like they're coming from some crying, offended 12 year old. Even worst of all, you find it necessary to insult anyone who happens to not be from AZ that you know personally, or goes against something that you say or think, criticizing their level of play as if you're some kind of god at this game. Let me tell you, buddy, I've seen a few of your vids, and I can't sit idly by while you ride your high horse of thinking you're something special when you QUITE CLEARLY are HORRIBLE at this game. So let me just say this, you arrogant *******. I'm taking your ****ing money if/when I meet you, with my Yoshi too, since I'm one of those "Yoshi mains that doesn't know how to play his own character." Go ahead and back down if you want you little *****, it wouldn't surprise me.
tl/dr: Money match me?
Now that that's all out of the way, I have to say I really dislike what's happening to these yoshi boards, they used to be such a chill place where everybody was pretty friendly and relaxed, but now it seems like there's just arguing, or it's a place for AZ people to come flaunt themselves. I'm honestly not buying the vman super modesty act, as this ****in thread has been up and prosperous since the second week he's even played Yoshi, and not once have I seen him take a critiquing post very seriously, as if he actually always assumed himself to be the best without fail, and was only posting vids to show off. I'm just tired of this entire board, which is why I don't post anymore. Seriously, guys... who cares? Just relax. Oh well, whatever, I'm out.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
if that is what you truly wish, than you can close this thread.... Like I said... I never intended for ANY of this to happen... I simply tried to expand Yoshi's game to what I've seen... nothing against you or any of the other Yoshi players.. but it seemed Yoshi was dying....noone was playing him, noone was representing videos... nothing... that is what keeps characters alive/interests.. etc... and I was merely tryin to revive that image.... I've no need with Mewtwo on that.. we have Taj to cover that image... Im not blessed to have the Pikachu that Axe has.. so axe has Pikachu covered.... I had first given Yoshi a shot to play Yoshi, years ago.. but I had too many self-confidence issues....Now that that's all out of the way, I have to say I really dislike what's happening to these yoshi boards, they used to be such a chill place where everybody was pretty friendly and relaxed, but now it seems like there's just arguing, or it's a place for AZ people to come flaunt themselves. I'm honestly not buying the vman super modesty act, as this ****in thread has been up and prosperous since the second week he's even played Yoshi, and not once have I seen him take a critiquing post very seriously, as if he actually always assumed himself to be the best without fail, and was only posting vids to show off. I'm just tired of this entire board, which is why I don't post anymore. Seriously, guys... who cares? Just relax. Oh well, whatever, I'm out.
Perhaps if Yoshi had some representation more...maybe i wouldn't have even started to play yoshi....who knows honestly....
As for the thread... - you can call it whatever you want, I IN NO WAY/SHAPE OR FORM.. intended to showboatat my abilities, sure I had different opinions on many things... but ALL players have that..... if I wanted to do that (showboat) ... I have a more than above average Falco to cover that for me a very solid Mewtwo, Samus... and i'd simply Hype Axe/Taj up like I used to so people can appreicate them, and their playstyle..... If you feel i've destroyed your Yoshi boards......then fine.. i'm sorry on that too... I'm sorry that Taj/Axe, hyped me up, if that's what you wanna call it.. but I've shown them/impressed them in something(s) and they were keeping my spirits high/hyping me up so OTHER players could see me etc....
never, was I just tryin to showboat in my own existence....and if you honestly call my "modesty" an act... than you don't know me... honeestly you don't.... I'm not saying i'm super nice etc... but i'm one of the nicer/pushover people you'll ever meet..... I like to play, sleep, eat food and hang out w/friends... the casual gamers life...
Idk how I should feel honestly.... I'm offended that you think that i'm ACTUALLY like what you've put., and I've looked up to you for advice even... sure I don't TELL you... I've taken you're advice first hand..but it doesn't mean you/ALL the yoshi players had a major impact on my game... I don't think you know how much I've watched your yoshi, study you/all yoshi players etc... All of you have taught me things that I liked/disliked.. I simply disected what I thought was viable/nonviable and made my own equations with it.......and as I've stated.. I never intended to be that "2 week Yoshi" that took over the Yoshi forums to "showboat himself" as you call it... NOONE ELSE was playing Yoshi, responding..DOING ANYTHING!... A few of you were yes, and I appreciate that.. but when mewtwo/Pikachu/ROY, other characters have more representation/viewers and supporters of their characters... forgive me for merely trying to make Yoshi.. A BIT... A TEENY TINY BIT more popular
I always try to give support advice to ANYONE who has it offered.. sure I haven't always been there for you guys.. I'm alot busier than most of you may think... but i always have/always will do my best to represent and help in any way I can.... I always have and I always will.. REGARDLESS of what you/leffen/Mind Trick... and for some reason EVERY YOSHI PLAYER that has some "grudge against me" I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING... all I try to do is help/hype.. support just for everyone to spit it back in my face...............
*sigh* this is dopressing..... I really love these forums.. I love NEARLY everyone on SWF.. for the most part as well.... people eve treat me badly, but i still do what I can to help... I try to contribute/help newer/up and coming players... make combo videos.. for players.... I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHAT MORE I CAN DO TO HELP.. besides donate MONEY that I DON'T HAVE......
anyways it's all depressing...............I've stated earlier.... if leaving Yoshi.. is what will make YOU..and EVERYONE else it seems... happy.... than by all means... I'm done w/Yoshi.. allrite?....
Thanks for the supporters... helpers.. etc.... Those of you whom I've offended.. YoshiisCool/Mind Trick/leffen... etc... you guys do your thing...
I'll be cheering for you....even tho none of you seem to like me... for whatever reason(s)
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Did yoshiiscool call dtilt bad?
Ok, I give up. Yoshi boards: You guys are terrible.
Angel and Vman are CLEARLY on an ENTIRELY different level than EVERY LAST ONE of you, and with your terrible mindset, none of you will ever get any better.
If this gets me banned, or gives me even worse of a stigma, oh well.
Ok, I give up. Yoshi boards: You guys are terrible.
Angel and Vman are CLEARLY on an ENTIRELY different level than EVERY LAST ONE of you, and with your terrible mindset, none of you will ever get any better.
If this gets me banned, or gives me even worse of a stigma, oh well.