pockyD
Smash Legend
we're not talking about a level 9 peach doing a full hop fair
besides, this isn't an "ask guy who plays with bad peaches and thinks he can shield grab the fair" thread
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Ask KirbyKaze sheik questions (better than mango's)
- Thread starter Drephen
- Start date
besides, this isn't an "ask guy who plays with bad peaches and thinks he can shield grab the fair" thread
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
rofl what are you talking about if they fair you while floating theres no way you cant not shieldgrab
and i dont even play outside of tournies only peach ive met in tourny was oh wait never LO!L im just randomly in this topic staying on topic as to not get modded but really talking about whatever it was i came here in the first place quit riding me gimp!
and i dont even play outside of tournies only peach ive met in tourny was oh wait never LO!L im just randomly in this topic staying on topic as to not get modded but really talking about whatever it was i came here in the first place quit riding me gimp!
pockyD
Smash Legend
it's okay to be stupid, but it's NOT okay to pass off your stupidity as advice
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
oh SH|T my feelings.
edit: kirbykaze how do falcons beat you? (if at all, did you play hax or scar???)
edit: kirbykaze how do falcons beat you? (if at all, did you play hax or scar???)
soap
Smash Hero
whenever peach hits your shield with FC just buffer a roll somewhere
TheKneeOfJustice
Smash Lord
Maybe. 10MoneyMatches. We will have to see how our long list of pending money matches goes.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
You mean this? ^_^Well it's kind of different because the nair comes at you horizontally. The principle is the same, which is that you need to hit him with the little area below Sheik's leg because of how her hitboxes drag after her.
soap
Smash Hero
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Yeah pretty much. If you look at the pictures, you'll see that although Sheik has a massive hitbox on frame 6 (the 2nd pic) it doesn't do any good agains Fox' nair because it's coming from above and the side, meaning that all that's between you and Fox is actually the very narrow red space above and to the side of the ftilt- which leads to you trading hits.
Your only real chance at beating the nair is hitting on frames 7 or 8, when Sheik's leg is much higher and the disjointed hitbox is shielding her body.
Your only real chance at beating the nair is hitting on frames 7 or 8, when Sheik's leg is much higher and the disjointed hitbox is shielding her body.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Wow good stuff WoA.
About that Cash Mooney thing: He will definitly make it out of pools because there are more than enough german scrubs and brawl players.
But I'm going to smile if he gets ***** by kJaB (which is going to happen).
Sorry cash <3
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Good thing too, that's like the one reason I have a shot at making it out of pools myself.
Egoclapper
Smash Apprentice
so they can run and tech chase you with a dsmash?
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Peach runs slow, Sheik rolls fast. Jump and **** them.
Egoclapper
Smash Apprentice
considering i had edrees bait my roll, follow and dsmash, i can confirm that no, good peaches **** that ****
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
TML stop polluting my topic.
I don't play vs Falcons in tournament. They never meet me in bracket. I have Falcon dodge. When I did play Darkrain at Pound 3 he beasted me like I have never been beasted before. Seriously, I found PC and Azen less horrific than him. Granted sandbagging and other crap goes into it, but he destroyed me the hardest. Two consecutive 3-stockings go me. I suppose just be really smart and don't commit stupidly would be the best advice, I don't know why people think needle damage from Sheik is so horrible. She kills Falcon in one hit anyways, so it's not like it really matters if you're hit at 9% or 900% IMO, and camping dash dance preserves your lifespan and gives you a greater chance of them making the mistake you need for them to die, and also moves them into a more complacent position if they're not super ridiculously vigilant and amazing, so that would seem smart. But nobody likes camping intelligently so just chuck Nairs at her and hope they suck. Falcon Sheik is like 99 / 1 for Sheik's favour anyways so you can fully john and complain about it afterwards and nobody will be upset or call you out on being a whiny little bitch because you're the manliest character in the game :D
You can shield-grab Peach for her slap and double slap, if you hold down when you shield-grab after her first jab you can prepare for her second jab by CCing it (or more accurately ASDIing down for nit-pickers) and then going for the CC grab on her second jab. There is no Peach pillar, that's a myth that Xif made up to scare little children. Do not attempt to shield-grab the initial FC aerial or reap the reward of being D-smashed. Buffering roll is also good because Peach is slow but this trick will not always save you, so don't depend on it. Jumping in a timely manner or WDing in a timely manner is also good.
In general just camp Peach and space so you can't be D-smashed and avoid being Faired / Naired ten billion times. If she floats at you from unshieldgrabbable height with Bair or whatever then just roll or Nair her accordingly. Be smart and space and don't fall for stupid Peach crap. Chuck boost grabs and dash attacks at her when she plucks a turnip. This will **** her projectile game badly and also tamper with her approach.
You have to F-tilt very early for WD back F-tilt to beat Fox Nairs. Actually, you have to be extremely preemptive. But you already knew that. You can alternatively move back really far and aim it for where he's going to land, but if you're going to do that D-smash is better because F-tilt will be CCed until like six billion percent.
I don't play vs Falcons in tournament. They never meet me in bracket. I have Falcon dodge. When I did play Darkrain at Pound 3 he beasted me like I have never been beasted before. Seriously, I found PC and Azen less horrific than him. Granted sandbagging and other crap goes into it, but he destroyed me the hardest. Two consecutive 3-stockings go me. I suppose just be really smart and don't commit stupidly would be the best advice, I don't know why people think needle damage from Sheik is so horrible. She kills Falcon in one hit anyways, so it's not like it really matters if you're hit at 9% or 900% IMO, and camping dash dance preserves your lifespan and gives you a greater chance of them making the mistake you need for them to die, and also moves them into a more complacent position if they're not super ridiculously vigilant and amazing, so that would seem smart. But nobody likes camping intelligently so just chuck Nairs at her and hope they suck. Falcon Sheik is like 99 / 1 for Sheik's favour anyways so you can fully john and complain about it afterwards and nobody will be upset or call you out on being a whiny little bitch because you're the manliest character in the game :D
You can shield-grab Peach for her slap and double slap, if you hold down when you shield-grab after her first jab you can prepare for her second jab by CCing it (or more accurately ASDIing down for nit-pickers) and then going for the CC grab on her second jab. There is no Peach pillar, that's a myth that Xif made up to scare little children. Do not attempt to shield-grab the initial FC aerial or reap the reward of being D-smashed. Buffering roll is also good because Peach is slow but this trick will not always save you, so don't depend on it. Jumping in a timely manner or WDing in a timely manner is also good.
In general just camp Peach and space so you can't be D-smashed and avoid being Faired / Naired ten billion times. If she floats at you from unshieldgrabbable height with Bair or whatever then just roll or Nair her accordingly. Be smart and space and don't fall for stupid Peach crap. Chuck boost grabs and dash attacks at her when she plucks a turnip. This will **** her projectile game badly and also tamper with her approach.
You have to F-tilt very early for WD back F-tilt to beat Fox Nairs. Actually, you have to be extremely preemptive. But you already knew that. You can alternatively move back really far and aim it for where he's going to land, but if you're going to do that D-smash is better because F-tilt will be CCed until like six billion percent.
soap
Smash Hero
I can not get that ftilt to work for me. I like jumping backwards all day.
If peach floats mid to high, i turn around and back air, it works pretty easy.
If peach floats mid to high, i turn around and back air, it works pretty easy.
Linguini
Smash Master
lol falcon vs sheik is def 60-40,not any worse.falcon has some easy **** on sheik.
TheKneeOfJustice
Smash Lord
Or perhaps you did it wrong. There is no way peach can catch up to Sheik's amazing back roll.
Couple of quick stupid question:
You can cancel all of Fox's aerials with dsmash with the legs of her dsmash, right? So say Fox runs in with his good old nair... can you dsmash through his nair without him being able to grab you or is it %dependent (for him being able to cc the dsmash and run in and grab you)? Like... only for say 30% and up is when it's safe to dsmash without getting grabbed?
You can cancel all of Fox's aerials with dsmash with the legs of her dsmash, right? So say Fox runs in with his good old nair... can you dsmash through his nair without him being able to grab you or is it %dependent (for him being able to cc the dsmash and run in and grab you)? Like... only for say 30% and up is when it's safe to dsmash without getting grabbed?
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Yeah, but he needs to hit her first and to do that, he has to put himself at a huge risk and hope everything works out OK.
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
He would crouch cancel the dsmash while in the air? Impressive.
Air vs ground, the two attacks will hit both people, so... take that into consideration.
And I feel like wavedash back to ftilt or something is better, as you don't get too much out of a dsmash. Plus, they could bait you and punish dsmash lag.
Air vs ground, the two attacks will hit both people, so... take that into consideration.
And I feel like wavedash back to ftilt or something is better, as you don't get too much out of a dsmash. Plus, they could bait you and punish dsmash lag.
Linguini
Smash Master
I just think most falcons play it wrong. I think sheik does have a small advantage though.
Lawrencelot
Smash Lord
Man, I've just played Zgetto's fox and got ***** bad, like 3-stocked and 4-stocked (while I also played Amsah's fox who only 1-stocked me due to my amazing techchase skills (and him not doing his best probably)).
Anyway, I got two questions. Against Fox, how do you make sure you can grab him if he's good? (I rely a lot on techchasing) I mean, against an average Fox I could wait for an aerial or smash or even dash attack if they're bad, and then dashdance + jcgrab, but against the better Foxes that doesn't work because they either wait for me to do a move or run to shoot lasers.
Secondly, what do you do with Sheik against crouchcancelers who have low percent? Especially if they're hard to grab, I see that downsmash is like my only option to get out of the low percent CC battle. But downsmash doesn't do much on low damage besides the percents.
Anyway, I got two questions. Against Fox, how do you make sure you can grab him if he's good? (I rely a lot on techchasing) I mean, against an average Fox I could wait for an aerial or smash or even dash attack if they're bad, and then dashdance + jcgrab, but against the better Foxes that doesn't work because they either wait for me to do a move or run to shoot lasers.
Secondly, what do you do with Sheik against crouchcancelers who have low percent? Especially if they're hard to grab, I see that downsmash is like my only option to get out of the low percent CC battle. But downsmash doesn't do much on low damage besides the percents.
Linguini
Smash Master
Same with fox and falco. >_>
@Lawrencelot: That depends on what style of Fox you play.
If he approaches a lot eat his approaches with WD back ftilt, nairs out of shield, retreating SH fairs, utilt when coming from above and tons of needles and bairs.
If he plays campy either charge needles and make sure that they hit so you make up for the laser damage or run up to him and then watch what he does in that sitaution usually.
At first you can WDback for example to figure out what he does (since you stay spaced and in case he rolls behind you you get a grab)
If you notice that he jumps a lot when you run up to him simply SH fair (which can be cool especially at higher %s)
If he dashes away you can often get him with boost-grabs.
Or run farther and dashattack or dtilt or dsmash
or dash cancel and ftilt ... that's cool somehow
Edit: if he's very smart with mixng up defensive and offensive style ... you have a problem
If he approaches a lot eat his approaches with WD back ftilt, nairs out of shield, retreating SH fairs, utilt when coming from above and tons of needles and bairs.
If he plays campy either charge needles and make sure that they hit so you make up for the laser damage or run up to him and then watch what he does in that sitaution usually.
At first you can WDback for example to figure out what he does (since you stay spaced and in case he rolls behind you you get a grab)
If you notice that he jumps a lot when you run up to him simply SH fair (which can be cool especially at higher %s)
If he dashes away you can often get him with boost-grabs.
Or run farther and dashattack or dtilt or dsmash
or dash cancel and ftilt ... that's cool somehow
Edit: if he's very smart with mixng up defensive and offensive style ... you have a problem
Linguini
Smash Master
He can jab,with leads into other options, and if you have quick reflexes you wont get hit by that shine nonsense.
Egoclapper
Smash Apprentice
except even pros do so you can't just entirely dismiss the argument cuz it's easier for you
Falcon's jab doesn't come out nearly as fast as Fox/Falco's shine. Also, you can cc Falcon's jab into grab lol.
Edit: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469
Most people's reactions are about .2, you have to react in .14-.19 seconds. o_O There are very very few people who have that good of reactions.
Also, this seemed pretty nifty
Magus420: "***An important thing to know is that for tech/getup rolls that have late movements it may be better to identify those ones by the startup animation itself if it is unique to the others rather than the movement from it. For example, Jiggs/Kirby have a really noticeable spin on some of their getups that happens well before they actually move by a noticeable amount. Others point their legs in the direction they are tech-rolling very early on before moving in that direction.
In the case with Fox/Falco, a noticeable part of their tech in place is that they point one leg in each direction at the startup, which may be sooner noticed/more effective for that getup than looking for the others not happening to show a tech in place. In their cases, the tech in place is essentially 'shorter' than others as far as grabs are concerned since they have a 1 frame invincibility move on getup while others would be grabbable for an extra 2 frames or more. If their name isn't Bowser or Zelda who have slower startup on them, a buffered sidestep is vulnerable to grab for 2 frames longer than Fox/Falco with a perfectly timed shine (1F Shield, 1F Startup, and then Invincible)."
Edit: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469
Most people's reactions are about .2, you have to react in .14-.19 seconds. o_O There are very very few people who have that good of reactions.
Also, this seemed pretty nifty
Magus420: "***An important thing to know is that for tech/getup rolls that have late movements it may be better to identify those ones by the startup animation itself if it is unique to the others rather than the movement from it. For example, Jiggs/Kirby have a really noticeable spin on some of their getups that happens well before they actually move by a noticeable amount. Others point their legs in the direction they are tech-rolling very early on before moving in that direction.
In the case with Fox/Falco, a noticeable part of their tech in place is that they point one leg in each direction at the startup, which may be sooner noticed/more effective for that getup than looking for the others not happening to show a tech in place. In their cases, the tech in place is essentially 'shorter' than others as far as grabs are concerned since they have a 1 frame invincibility move on getup while others would be grabbable for an extra 2 frames or more. If their name isn't Bowser or Zelda who have slower startup on them, a buffered sidestep is vulnerable to grab for 2 frames longer than Fox/Falco with a perfectly timed shine (1F Shield, 1F Startup, and then Invincible)."
soap
Smash Hero
wow, i never knew that. cool.
LooksLikePit
Smash Ace
god **** falco. I always get laser camped and I really suck at hitting a falco when he's camping. How do I do well against a campy falco? When i try to stay over 1 shl away from the falco, they run away and shoot more lasers, and needle camping doesn't work consistently. please help meeee
LooksLikePit
Smash Ace
it's more of a problem on pokemon stadium or final destination(i always ban that, but in friendlies camping is still really annoying)
Lawrencelot
Smash Lord
Thanks for the advice but you didn't answer my question(s)@Lawrencelot: That depends on what style of Fox you play.
If he approaches a lot eat his approaches with WD back ftilt, nairs out of shield, retreating SH fairs, utilt when coming from above and tons of needles and bairs.
If he plays campy either charge needles and make sure that they hit so you make up for the laser damage or run up to him and then watch what he does in that sitaution usually.
At first you can WDback for example to figure out what he does (since you stay spaced and in case he rolls behind you you get a grab)
If you notice that he jumps a lot when you run up to him simply SH fair (which can be cool especially at higher %s)
If he dashes away you can often get him with boost-grabs.
Or run farther and dashattack or dtilt or dsmash
or dash cancel and ftilt ... that's cool somehow
Edit: if he's very smart with mixng up defensive and offensive style ... you have a problem
Well it's basically kind of a guessing game since Fox is so fast. Therefore you have to make every grab count and techchase them accordingly.
If i play against my buddy i get most of my grabs from boost grabs into his laser spam/dash dance or from CC aerials +grab ( in case of drill SDI away and grab)
But that's my style and he's the only good Fox I've play with my Sheik so far.
I donno, the most important thing to keep in mind prolly is to be really smart with the approaches and not get repetitive since coutering his approaches is rather easy in comparison.
---
To that CC thing:
If you can hit him with fully charged needles, it makes some good %
I also dsmash a lot if i mess up my spacing, but i think at low% that's a mistake because he usually only takes some % but remains in the better position.
I think it's important to be patient in this matchup.
If he is at low% try to hit him with late spaced aerials and needles or corner him until you get a grab or you get an opportunity to push him offstage (and gimp him obviously)
If i play against my buddy i get most of my grabs from boost grabs into his laser spam/dash dance or from CC aerials +grab ( in case of drill SDI away and grab)
But that's my style and he's the only good Fox I've play with my Sheik so far.
I donno, the most important thing to keep in mind prolly is to be really smart with the approaches and not get repetitive since coutering his approaches is rather easy in comparison.
---
To that CC thing:
If you can hit him with fully charged needles, it makes some good %
I also dsmash a lot if i mess up my spacing, but i think at low% that's a mistake because he usually only takes some % but remains in the better position.
I think it's important to be patient in this matchup.
If he is at low% try to hit him with late spaced aerials and needles or corner him until you get a grab or you get an opportunity to push him offstage (and gimp him obviously)
unknown522
Some guy
kk posting
you're doing it wrong.
it's dumb at first when you do stuff and he dds you but if you space and learn to di his **** properly he sucks against sheik in every conceivable way except for tech chase if they're good and his edgeguarding is gay as balls but beyond those you destroy him in every possible way.
i know better to question linguini on falco (stupid lambchops) but falcon is easy street.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fox is too good.
I agree.elvenarrow9001 said:
If they bait anything you do on the ground then it will be punished. Sheik lags for like 20 frames of vulnerability after F-tilt, that's plenty of time for Fox to wreck her shit if he's smart.elvenarrow8999 said:
edit: If you screw up on Falcon for regrab (assuming you go for regrab but miss because of slow reaction time), his sidestep is punishable, his roll leaves you both at neutral, and his jab is punishable. If you screw up on either space animal, their sidestep puts them at advantage, their roll leaves you both at neutral, their shine puts them at advantage. So for their available defensive options, they get 2 that can punish you and **** you if you screw up whereas Falcon hopes for neutral if you're smart. This is why you can't screw up on Fox / Falco and have to kill the bitches efficiently. If you drag it out too long, you will mess up and die.