Ask KirbyKaze sheik questions (better than mango's)

[Jun.]

when if f-tilt NOT good? lol

 

[nicaboy]

lol I stand corrected then homei.

 

[KirbyKaze]

F-tilt even works when he's ground level with you, just don't do it when he's blatantly ducking waiting to CC it.

 

[virtuososteve]

Dang, as a new sheik user working my way to be the best in arizona I think I need to brush off the cobwebs on this thread.

 

[Sanu]

kk how do i tilt

teach me how to twirl

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's all about how hard you press the stick.

 

[Laijin]

holy**** I forgot this thread even existed

 

[Sanu]

It's all about how hard you press the stick.

Oh bby talk to me dirty again

 

[MaNg0]

;___________________;

 

[Bing]

Oh dear God that was hilarious.

 

[Jolteon]

 

[Voltz]

Lmaooooo

 

[Zog Malog]

Yo KK, I heard a noise upstairs last night, so I went to check it out, and there was a turnip in the attic. It kinda turned to look at me all owl-like, and before I could react it smacked me in the face. Naturally I went flying, and then it just sat there and smiled as I flew away. Then I started flying back, and it just came right back and smacked me again, the same stupid spinning smile permeating its surface the whole damn time. And then, y'know, I was dead. Since I'm a ninja-wizard-dingus-thingy, how can I sneak up on the turnip and take IT by surprise?

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

sick avatar zog malog

 

[shadrach kabango]

Kirby Kaze,

How do you smash DI out of Falcon's nair? Up? Down and away?

Falcon does an aerial and follows up with a gentleman. The aerial (let's say nair) is misspaced. Does Sheik have time to nair OOS before the gentleman?

v Fox you bthrow them off the stage at low percents (0-25%). They shine stall and double jump to the ledge. Needle can't hit them. What works? Fall down nair/bair?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm guessing you mean to escape the 2nd hit. In a general sense, his nair hits high to low so I think sliding the stick from the 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock positions is best. However he has some tricks to rise with the 1st hit and descend with the 2nd by using his DJ. In those cases I'm not sure you CAN humanly SDI to get out. The upside is that you'll be higher in the air if he can do a nair like that so aim to edge cancel off a platform if you can and if not (and another escape isn't available) then play it by ear.

You can actually shield-grab the gentleman if you time it right AND he's not spaced far away enough. It's generally the preferred move to hit. Nair OOS is sometimes better though and it's safer IMO.

Yeah fall off with nair or bair. You CAN adjust your needle setup so it accommodates a longer delay but I'm assuming you're SHing to needle the jump and when they shine stall (and deny your needle) you need a follow up action.

 

[Omni]

Yo, KK.

- How do you deal with aerial turnaround needle cancels facing you in the opposite direction that you want due to the analog stick sometimes "recoiling" slightly past neutral? I've missed many of aerial needle barrages because I ended up shooting my load in the opposite direction.

- Most practical uses for Sheik's CC f-tilt? Why CC f-tilt over CC d-tilt?

- What are some good "tech exercises" to practice with Sheik?

- Why does Sheik sometimes completely miss the ledge when she ledgecancel upb's Battlefield's ledge? Battlefielded? Or something else?

- Sheik's up+b (ending) makes it really difficult to ledgecancel because I believe her freefall doesn't allow any momentum changes. Regardless, have you discovered any interesting ledgecancel techniques from platforms similar to how Fox/Falco can ledgecancel their overb's on certain stage platforms from the ledge?

- Any idea on Sheik's frame adv. for f-air or jab on shield? Alternatively, do you know how much hitstun f-air, jab causes on shield?

That's all for now. <3 Good luck answering them all.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yo, KK.

(1) - How do you deal with aerial turnaround needle cancels facing you in the opposite direction that you want due to the analog stick sometimes "recoiling" slightly past neutral? I've missed many of aerial needle barrages because I ended up shooting my load in the opposite direction.

(2) - Most practical uses for Sheik's CC f-tilt? Why CC f-tilt over CC d-tilt?

(3) - What are some good "tech exercises" to practice with Sheik?

(4) - Why does Sheik sometimes completely miss the ledge when she ledgecancel upb's Battlefield's ledge? Battlefielded? Or something else?

(5) - Sheik's up+b (ending) makes it really difficult to ledgecancel because I believe her freefall doesn't allow any momentum changes. Regardless, have you discovered any interesting ledgecancel techniques from platforms similar to how Fox/Falco can ledgecancel their overb's on certain stage platforms from the ledge?

(6) - Any idea on Sheik's frame adv. for f-air or jab on shield? Alternatively, do you know how much hitstun f-air, jab causes on shield?

That's all for now. <3 Good luck answering them all.

Please number questions if you're asking more than 3 in the future. If they're complicated and / or require a long reply then number them if it's more than 1. This applies to everyone.

1) Just do it like a Sheik dash dance as if you were doing [long dash > immediate opposite short dash > immediately long dash]. It should look like two long dashes in one direction if you do it correct with a quick-turn in the middle that doesn't move you much. That motion in the first two inputs is basically what you're trying to learn when you do super fast RNSs that maintain your dash's momentum.

2) CC f-tilt hits further away. It hits higher. It knocks people over earlier and it has more knockback. Those are all good reasons to use it with obvious situations you can, I'm sure, come up with because I know who you are. Down and forward. Either slide it from down to down + forward or hold down + forward on habit. Both are fine.

3) The dash thing in 1 is good, trotting in general is good, moving after your WD with a variety of actions, etc. I like to make sure I can dash > WD in whatever direction however I want > dash. I also have a lot of jump fades I mess around with. And the backflip in SH / FJ out of everything. And edgestalling. And WD FF edgehog. And everything.

4) Because aim down + towards edge > release before you grab it but are shooting towards the edge during the vanish > poof you're fine. Don't hold straight to the side because it sucks and if you do then hold away after. This applies to basically every character.

5) There's a Youtube video called hoodie ninja but the Up-B needs to cancel off the move and it has no momentum (or virtually none) so there's not much application AFAIK. Her recovery is very limited and heuristics designed to kill her options systematically will suck. Try to hold options by not DJing into rising fair. Threaten with the fact that you COULD do something and save your jump. Walljump helps on YS and FOD but not much elsewhere because the walls slope away from you or don't exist.

6) Without knowing how you're doing that fair I cannot answer you legitimately so I'll condense the variables and variations into one word. "Meh." It's nothing special IMO. Just good 'cuz of range, not frame anything. You have better things to do than do crouch / shield-punishable normals into a shield. Like jump again. Or grab. And so forth.

 

[Jolteon]

Omni, some control sticks have that recoil/snapback issue. You just have to deal with it/flick the stick harder and eventually the stick will loosen up more and it'll stop happening.

 

[Omni]

Thanks guys. <3

1.) Yeah, you guys are right about that motion. I'll see if I can snap my controller into shape so it stops recoiling. When I try to do more of a "tilt" animation, sometimes I get her chains instead. It annoys me because on my old controller I never had the issue to begin with. The White GC controller is kinda' wacky for Melee and needs to be broken more into it.

2.) Makes sense. I just hold df for the tilt. It seems to be most effective against Fox and Marth in regards to interrupting their n-air and f-air respectively. Completely useless against Falco and Peach as you should never be CC against them in the first place (aside from some scenarios i.e. reading a Peach dash attack or when Peach is floating with her butt facing you). CURIOUS if CC f-tilt interrupts Falcon's n-air in between hits after soaking up the first hit. HMMMM.

3.) K.

4.) K.

5.) K. I'll check it out the video. I catch people all the time with Sheik's wall jump b-air; it's extremely deceptive and it either allows you to stall long enough to grab the ledge, or you catch bae slippin' and get a wall bounce off the hit.

6.) Yeah. I ask because I'm curious as to if there are any frame traps in between some of Sheik's shield pressure sequences. For example, if an opponent is in there shield and I do a SHFFL f-air, then jab, then f-tilt (great for baiting jump OOS options) I'm curious as to how many frames they have in between each move to act.

 

[Sheepolution]

Is it me or is Sheik's short-hop more sensitive than other's short hop?

 

[mas_torque]

Same as Fox's

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Is it me or is Sheik's short-hop more sensitive than other's short hop?

I sometimes wondered the same. I've always found Fox much easier to shorthop with even though the timings are the same, it's weird

 

[Tags]

I sometimes wondered the same. I've always found Fox much easier to shorthop with even though the timings are the same, it's weird

iirc, fox and sheik have the same sensitivity for short hopping.

 

[TKD]

sheik, fox, ic, samus, pika, pichu and kirby share the quickest hop; 3-frame start-up, iasa frame 4

CURIOUS if CC f-tilt interrupts Falcon's n-air in between hits after soaking up the first hit. HMMMM.

First of all, yeah. There are 8~13 frames between falcon nair hits; and second of all, you'd have to be on a platform because nair can't even reach a ducking sheik with both hits. Still, the 2nd kick would definitely have to reach the ground which I'm not sure is likely.

We don't really need any new technology vs falcon though. Just play it like m2k does.

For example, if an opponent is in there shield and I do a SHFFL f-air, then jab, then f-tilt (great for baiting jump OOS options) I'm curious as to how many frames they have in between each move to act.

There's a ton of time, considering every character has access to a guaranteed roll from blocking a spacie shine. The only extremely fast succession there would be fair to jab, but the fair would probably have to be FF autocanceled and not FF lagcanceled (4 frames difference in landing lag).

 

[hectohertz]

so magus mentioned that sheik can tech-chase falcon on reaction without ever needing jab, by reacting to missed tech options by:
-grabbing neutral stand up
-boost grabbing ground rolls
-shield grabbing get up attack (or crouch cancelling)

does this work on spacies too?

 

[BSeeD]

Yo, KK.

- How do you deal with aerial turnaround needle cancels facing you in the opposite direction that you want due to the analog stick sometimes "recoiling" slightly past neutral? I've missed many of aerial needle barrages because I ended up shooting my load in the opposite direction.

I have a viable solution for you.
While training and improving these past 2 years, this reverse thing happened to me a lot more.
The thing I do to prevent that is that I always press on a direction before releasing needles, even If I'm already on the right side.
This way you prevent the reverse thing to happen If you don't want to

- Sheik's up+b (ending) makes it really difficult to ledgecancel because I believe her freefall doesn't allow any momentum changes. Regardless, have you discovered any interesting ledgecancel techniques from platforms similar to how Fox/Falco can ledgecancel their overb's on certain stage platforms from the ledge?

Maybe I can teach something even to KK ?
In DreamLand you can make a proper edgecancel on both middle platforms with upB when wind's blowing.

A French player called Darko taught me that, and he uses it consistently.
It's stage-dependent though.

 

[Omni]

Awesome at the first point.

For the second point, I actually did this in a match on DL before. If you consider:

1.) The direction of the air breeze.
2.) The timing of the air breeze.
3.) Sheik can stall very well on the stage.

This is pretty legit. I wonder, however, what would be the perfect set-up from the ledge so that you can reach the perfect spot on the platform. Similar to how Falco can ledgecancel his overb at certain points on Battlefield, etc.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That Wispy trick is old... older than I am. I didn't realize people weren't aware of it though; I figured it would be intuitive or just known about simply because in a lot of MUs it's often the best play to recover on the DL64 side platforms so I figured... nevermind. Yeah, the wind can blow you off. And it's probably her best option when it's available.

 

[Omni]

Lol, going off on a "wow can't believe no one knows stuff that i know" tangent there. Not the best personality trait.

I asked around the boards, but I don't think there's any real pattern or algorithm to Dreamland's wind in regards to when it comes out.

 

[BSeeD]

I said that cause I watched every set from you on youtube countless times and I can't remember seeing you do it.

Mew2king doesn't do it also.

I agree with you on the fact that it's the best option when available.

About the patterns, all I can say is that the wind always starts blowing on the side you re in.

 

[TKD]

so magus mentioned that sheik can tech-chase falcon on reaction without ever needing jab, by reacting to missed tech options by:
-grabbing neutral stand up
-boost grabbing ground rolls
-shield grabbing get up attack (or crouch cancelling)

does this work on spacies too?

Yes, but mostly Fox. Fox and Falcon are cursed in the sense that a Sheik player can cover all their tech options assuming he reacts accordingly, and that Sheik gets a knockdown on them with a lot of stuff, notably dthrow at any %.

The reason Falco's not as easy is that his tech rolls are larger than Fox's, and don't last as long as Falcon's (you can still cover them maybe, but I'm not sure it's realistic to pull it off 100% every playing session).