Ask a Qusestion. Get an Answer.

[kismet2]

sorry julius i rarely play that matchup

EDIT: all i can really say that above falco is where you're the safest because we can't utilt, uair, or bait for usmash. k9 keep up the good work.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Where is the best position for lucario in the falco match-up. I feel that Lucario is limited to air combat. Then even there we can only chip damage off. Close range cario gets beaten by shield&jab mix-ups. The only thing I have found to be effective offensively is to try to get a frame 1 or 2 FP or DI up and get a frame 4 dair. Midrange there seems to be hope, but falco still has reflector/ has time to react/ lucario has limited options. Then there is no change of out camping falco with AS from afar. Or am I just over thinking this MU?

There is no best position since it changes a lot and your opponent will really change that.

Yes, Lucario is stopped by Falco's attacks a lot of the time because of jab. Its longer and faster than literally ever single of Lucario's attacks. Even his Ftilt is faster. There is still usage in playing the close up ground game. Lucario still has a jab which can lead into jab cancels of his own. You have still have shield, dodge and an epic forward roll to get behind people. These are really all you need to play Falco up close. You might lose from time to time, but you can still come out with the right timing or read on your opponent. Then its a whole other case if you can scare someone into shield and start dancing around it (not literally).

I have no idea what you mean by "1 or 2 FP or DI up and get a" Midrange seems hopeful because neither can really do much to the other, but Falco likes this range. You are too far away to bother him at all while he gets the opportunity to start up laser usage. And there is literally nothing you can do against him to really bother him. You can still fire off an aura ball to disrupt a laser happy falco that doesn't give any regard to you possibly sneaking an attack under him as he lands with a laser.

And while you may not win a camping battle if you were to try, you can still certainly win the sitting game against another player who is rather impatient. If you can get a person to start initiating the approaches towards. You know, they might try weird stuff like roll behind or walk up grab or SH airdodge behind, they have just approached and you can take an advantage on this with the right pick of moves.

A lot of times if you feel its a losing battle against a character, it might be better to start thinking of it as how do I play agaisnt this person. Why would you think a person with Ganon could beat the ICs? The ganon player takes his knowledge of both characters and stages and tries to outsmart/outplay the opponent.

 

[hichez50]

Thanks Xeylode. That last paragraph really stuck a chord with me. I always new people played that that, but for some reason I never thought using that as a result of adaption.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

AFAIK, you get jabbed, you Force Palm.

 

[kismet2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYC_sRr_uTI me vs Mar(diddy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Ed03gN-xo me vs Gunner(pikachu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URsdGWhlNnQ me vs M3t(g&w)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8gBj2V3z6o me vs JNig(wario) wf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADqRIt5sAVU me vs JNig(wario) gf

some of my tournament matches from this weekend. critique if you're up for it. but critique in the critique thread LOL

 

[luxingo]

How do you do falco's ledge-drop to double-laser on stage, with one skimming the stage? Whenever I try to do it, I either shoot one and then land before another can come out, or I shoot one at marth's eye level and then another slightly higher.

Specific button inputs please.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

I usually drop from the stage and fast fall, then the moment I press jump I'm pressing the B button in a fraction of a second. It's usually when you begin ascension onto the stage so that the first laser kinda goes a little over the stage then the 2nd one goes right above it and you land with little lag. It's something that involves a little bit of practice but you can get it down.

 

[luxingo]

Do you have customised controls so that you can press jump and special almost simultaneously? If I use the normal controls, it takes too long for me to go from Y to B.

Also, are you holding the control stick towards the stage as you jump and releasing as you fire the laser?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

^Get faster.

How do you do falco's ledge-drop to double-laser on stage, with one skimming the stage? Whenever I try to do it, I either shoot one and then land before another can come out, or I shoot one at marth's eye level and then another slightly higher.

Specific button inputs please.

1) Pull back on control stick and hold
2) drop a certain distance
3) push towards stage with control stick and jump
4) release control stick back to neutral before pressing B
5) press B twice or mash it


-If you laser too high, then you need to fall further before jumping.
-If you laser, but do not get on stage than you need to hold towards the stage a tad longer.
-If you run into the stage and not getting on, then you are jumping too late.
-If you sideB, then you are holding towards the stage too long and not returning to neutral before pressing B.

Keep at it and the goal should be to get a couple lasers to at least the height of a standing jiggs/olimar/mk/kirby/G&W. There is a narrower timing for getting the first laser to hit a crouching opponent.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I've been testing the Kill Damages, and with Dk's Up B brake.
Usmash kills later than the percent listed for Snake, I can't seem to live past 170%.. and without Di, it kills Dk at 138%. So, yeah.

I'm just practicing my Di/ SDi.

Falco has weak Smashes :3

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, I can imagine why we might get different things for DK. You cannot activate air dodges, specials, and aerials on the same frame after taking knockback. You can always airdodge a few frames faster than using aerials. And aerials will come out faster than using special moves. In the case of DK, Yoshi, and G&W, I recall they flew off the top of the screen before I could get any special off. Something like it took 60 frames from end of hitlag to use a special as opposed to 25 frames after hitlag in order to use an aerial which means you only get momentum canceling through the fast falling.

Can't imagine why Snake would be any different unless you were doing this on training mode where it defaults all attacks to be slightly staled. I did all the KO percents in vs mode and using the frame advance for most accurate results I could get, but I'll check it again after work and ask some people to make sure a factor was not missed when I did this.

I'd take Falco's smashes over someone like sonic's though lol

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Falco's Fsmash > Sonic's everything

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Falco's smashes are good. None are bad and he has good enough tools everywhere else that good suffices and great is unnecessary.

 

[kismet2]

his smashes deal some pretty good damage with Fsmash and Dsmash both doing dealing 15% while Usmash does 14%, the decay isn't that bad either: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201529

 

[Kuro~]

Dsmash is underused imo.

 

[BSP]

Aren't Falco's legs invincible on Dsmash?

And don't complain about Falco's smashes. He's got an all around decent set compared to most characters.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

His legs are intangible on start-up for a bit, but once the hitbox is out the intangibility goes away. Its like frame 2 or 3 until frame 7.

I am never sure when its a good time to pull off a Dsmash on anyone. So many things in this game are "I could use this option and it would be really good if it works. If it fails though, I get hurt pretty bad." I think this is pretty important in melee. As a marth, you could try going for easy gimmicks like Fthrow -> fsmash on a fox hoping they would not tech, but something like won't work on against a good fox. Should I rely on mix-ups to get me through, or should I rely on the guaranteed stuff. Marth can guarantee a 0-death on fox, hard, but its guaranteed if you don't mess up.

In brawl, I am wondering the same thing. Should I try mixing in dsmash and gatling into my jab cancels as mix-ups? The reward is good, but if it messes up I'm getting punished pretty bad. If I go with shield or ftilt after a jab cancel, the reward is less, but is a lot safer and more likely to work. Or with Dthrow at higher percents, should I go with the hard read of getting a bdacus or go for the dash forward to be able to react to either DI option?

 

[Kuro~]

Well i mean more as an OoS option/punishing with in general. Not necessarily as a risky win-more option.

 

[kismet2]

you'll learn your opportunities if you use it enough so you can know when it's appropriate. it clanks with plenty of moves if it doesn't beat it out lol

 

[Kuro~]

The move is soooo good <3. Ima have some matches up soon and you'll see~

 

[kismet2]

let me know when that happens! i like watching flaco

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Kuro, who else to you enjoy playing now? Falco, Pit, and Snake are about the three choices I picked up on.

 

[Kuro~]

Oh i enjoy playing a bunch of characters. But i only go pit and ICs in tourney. I'm back on the falco boards cuz i'm contemplating dropping pit all together to main falco.

Main ones though are

Pit, falco, snake, sheik, luigi, ike, wario, ICs, metaknight.

 

[kismet2]

i'm a tier *****. besides falco i use mk, diddy, and snake LOL

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

^And Tink.

 

[kismet2]

yeah i also wanted to work on my pikachu, zss, olimar, and i was using ice climbers for a bit but i just stopped.

 

[-DR3W-]

Kuro's Wario murked me pretty hard a while back.

Time to avenge myself.

 

[Kuro~]

I'll practice the cg just for you baby

 

[-DR3W-]

No one has done it on me yet, and no one will.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

There's two or three that do it in AL/GA. -_-

 

[Kuro~]

is nair to uptilt guaranteed frame wise or is it character dependent and whether or not they're airborne or grounded?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I would have to either find the post I made awhile back or retest it, but I believe nair does combo into falco's other moves given the right circumstances.

 

[Kuro~]

I would have to either find the post I made awhile back or retest it, but I believe nair does combo into falco's other moves given the right circumstances.

You remember how long ago you made that post?? Cuz i would love to see that info.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

No, I couldn't locate the post on it. It wasn't anything detailed anyway from what I recall. I just relooked at it again on Meta Knight and I remember why I didn't do much more with Nair -> w/e

There are just way too many factors affecting what sort of advantage Falco gets out of using nair. If two hits are made instead of only one, then the opponent rises into the air just enough to possibly allow them to jump out. A person being able to jump out means that on the right character they could use something an aerial and hit you. Then there is the case of grounded vs aerial opponents when hit with nair. If they manage to DI a wee bit they could get out of falco's range if you use Utilt. Some characters it doesn't matter if you hit them in the air or not. Someone like Ike has such slow aerials that his only options are jump or airdodge which would be beaten out by something like Utilt.

The bottom line is that attempting to use nair's first three hits and going into ending lag and continuing with an attack is borderline combo material. Stuff like nair -> usmash shouldn't combo at all. Your opponent gets all the time in the world to shield. Nair -> jab/Utilt are pretty much guaranteed to combo on a grounded opponent. The only time they shouldn't really work is because of DI and against someone in the air. Grab and Ftilt are borderline options if someone is too slow to use jab or dodge/shield on you.

Edit: I was testing with the first two hits and assumed the 3rd hit was the same. The 3rd hit of Nair is the exact same except it does 1% less than the first two. The first two hits are 3% a piece. Not sure what exactly this does at the moment for frame advantage.

 

[Kuro~]

K thx. For jab>jab>shield is a crouch necessary b4 the shield to get optimal frame advantage?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I wish I knew where this whole crouch thing came from for jab cancels. I have seen no indication in anything I have done with frame advance that trying to press down on the control stick during jab affects anything at. Jab1 and jab2 each have their own IASA frame. By holding shield and nothing else, the shield will come out on the first possible frame your character can do something. So, jab -> shield doesn't get any benefit at all from trying to press down on the control stick at all. Once you jab, simply hold shield, and it will come out on the first IASA frame.

If holding down on the control stick between jab1 -> jab1 does anything at all, I have no idea what it is.

 

[teluoborg]

Well I've always thought it was because the jab follow up frames (like if you press A during those frames you'll go from jab1 to jab2 and from jab2 to infinite) last longer than the IASA.
So by buffering a crouch and canceling it into another jab you can do jab1>jab1 (or jab1/2>anything) faster than if you waited for the follow up frames to end.

IDK if the frame gain is big for Falco (or even existing at all), but it is for other characters like Falcon.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol I feel quite silly for having not been told that sooner. I always thought people believed you had to crouch in order to do any jab cancel stuff which is just silly. All tilts and smashes will activate on the IASA frame and later. Just time it and you can do it quickly. Yea, falco's jab2 activation window lasts until frame 29 lol I guess crouch is really only necessary for jab1 repeats. Maybe if I played Ike I would have noticed that sooner.

 

[luxingo]

Does jab>grab have better frame advantage (or less worse frame disadvantage) than jab>jab>grab?

 

[Crackle]

Edit: Ugh how did it double post I didn't click submit the first time. Sorry about that.