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Sounds situtional.

And does anybody use that ledge drop (no fast fall) -> 2nd jump -> airdodge onto the lower platform of BF? I always forget he has that option, but all this RCO stuff makes me realize it would be pretty useless anyway. Never thought to try it with an aerial though... hmm...
 
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Nope, it does not. It'll cancel the animation for the laser when you hit the ground, but Falco still suffers from soft (2 frame) or hard (4 frame) landing lag and thus RCO takes effect there.
 

-Cross-

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Sounds situtional.

And does anybody use that ledge drop (no fast fall) -> 2nd jump -> airdodge onto the lower platform of BF? I always forget he has that option, but all this RCO stuff makes me realize it would be pretty useless anyway. Never thought to try it with an aerial though... hmm...
No I don't. I should probably experiment with it more, but my execution is not up to par. The few times I've done it in a match, I always missed the platform and air dodged into the ground with hard RCO lag. Fuuuu.... Anyway, now that you bring it up though, I think that it's still kind of a bad option at least when you have RCO lag. Unless your opponent committed to an option that was countered by this tactic, you're still at the very edge of the platform with your back to it which is a golden opportunity for the opponent to shield push and trap you. When you don't have RCO lag it's better because you could buffer a turnaround before shielding, and you can mix it up with landing onto the stage itself.
 

1PokeMastr

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Landing with Nair is your best option aside from IAP to get rid of any RCO Lag.
RCO Lag + Aerial. It takes 1/3rd of the Aerials Landing lag and adds that on to the normal landing lag it was Given.

Nair has 9 frames of Landing Lag.. which becomes 12 frames almost the same as Dair's landing lag normally.


And, the Ledge Hop Air dodge seems very useful without RCO present, I've buffered a Drop through from it along with an Air dodge into shield.. though.. you can buffer drop through into anything really.
 

teluoborg

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^lol secret? **** that dude. Just tell us so we can test with you :glare:
But I don't wanna ://///////

To be more precise, since it works on many characters I wanted to post a more complete thing in the tactical with a video and stuff, but I'll give you the basics :
On BF, ledge jump then double jump and try to land on the farthest edge of the platform (the closest one or the middle one) while moving forward, if you land on the right spot you can get what looks like 5 frames of lag, even less.

I guess you can find all the interesting stuff from here. Have fun.
 

-Cross-

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Wait, edge canceling exists in brawl? Well that certainly seems like a very interesting find, I'll definitely mess around with it. Hopefully you do get that video up, I really wanna see it in action if I can't replicate it.
 

-Cross-

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I hope I'm not too out of line when I say, "Do some work yourself please." I am telling you this, because no matter how "safe" an option is, if your opponent reads it, then, unless it has gamebreaking properties, you will be punished for it. So if you are getting punished for your ledge recovery options almost every single time, then the real problem is your option selection. Rather than me listing to you every option, you should analyze your gameplay, first. If you do the same 2 options every time, then mix it up. Use different options that counter the actions your opponent is doing, etc. I hope I don't come off as rude, but the truth is if you really want to get better as a player, then you need to work the problem out yourself. You're not going to improve at all if I just hand feed you answers. At the very least, please tell me the options you tend to do that get you punished, because honestly I don't need to waste my time listing everything "safe" Falco can do from the ledge, and we'll be more productive this way.
 

sGale

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Sorry about that then. I usually phantasm or nair from the ledge. My practice partner mains Marth and I can't seem to get through his jab/nair.
 

-Cross-

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With Falco, your ledge options are very dependent on whether or not you have RCO lag or not. If you got to the ledge without phantasm'ing or firefox'ing, then you have a couple more options to utilize than if you had to. Of course those same options that are safer without RCO lag, namely air dodging or lasering, can still be used when you have RCO lag, it's just that you can still be punished because of the extra landing lag.

Now onto the main problem, phantasm is a solid option to get back onto the stage, while nair isn't, especially against Marth who outranges you with that sword of his. For the most part, stop using nair to get back onto the stage. Let's concentrate on phantasm for now. Phantasm from the ledge can be punished in one of two ways, the opponent either plays very close to you and runs at you and hits you out of phantasm before the hitbox comes out, or he waits farther back towards the center of the stage and hits you in your post lag. If he is doing option 1, then that means you can use standard ledge options to mix him up. Ledge attack <100% along with ledge roll is a very deceiving mixup, because of the similarity in their animation. Obviously there are more mixups, so experiment and learn them. The potential for mixups is entirely player dependent.

Now if he's doing option 2, then that means do anything but phantasm into him. If you happen to fall for this, then that means you pay attention too much to your character and not your opponent's. If you find yourself watching Falco in "key" moments when precision is necessary, for example recovering to the ledge with phantasm or right after you've been hit, then that means you need to practice looking at your opponent more. Of course, this means do not pick an option that can still be punished easily by him from that position. For example rolling into him, is probably not the best idea, while regular getup from the ledge is much better. Ledge hop nair is actually a good option here, because it's the aerial that cancels RCO lag with the least amount of landing lag, so you can land from the very edge of the stage with it for minimal lag. Of course, your options decrease once you go >100%, because of the slower animations in your standard ledge options, but you can learn to deal with it through experience. If you have any more trouble, then post here again.

Anyway these are the very basics to Falco's ledge recovery. Since his phantasm is such a strong option, opponents are very conscious of it. Your ability to get back onto the stage depends on keeping the opponent guessing with other options, and then phantasm'ing back onto the stage. Honestly it seems as though you are over dependent on phantasm, as a lot of people tend to be. Learn to utilize the standard options, try to completely seal off phantasm from the ledge during a match, and see how you do. If you have a lot of trouble after trying this for multiple matches, then this means you have to seriously analyze and improve your decision making skills.
 

-Cross-

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Yeah every aerial gets additional landing lag, and all options that "autocancel" such as air dodge and lasers get standard RCO lag. Also be aware that if you do a "hard" landing, you get more landing lag than if you do a "soft" landing.

Edit: if you can post a video of yourself, it'll probably help a lot more.
 

sGale

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Yeeeeaaahh, videos.... I'm working on that. Problem is i'm kind of broke and my wii isn't hacked so I can't save replays over 3 min. I'll post here when I get some videos up.
 

BleachigoZX

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Mad random, I didn't read through the ledge options but let me teach you all something with the jump button:

- Falco can jump away from the ledge and regrab it. (hit back and jump) [ACTUALLY, I think every character can do this yo...]

- In this jump Falco can actually, for the most part, use EVERY aerial, aerial special and regrab the ledge. Down B, Laser, [Sourspot] Uair, Nair, Phantasm and Bair are the option you want to mix up the most for they are the most effective for countering and covering options. Now that I think about it, I haven't tried air dodging.... HURR HURR HURR

- When you Uair, only the sourspot should connect. Which is good, really good. It sets up for really intricate strings. Also the move dodges a lot of moves, I don't know why, but I've gone through a lot of sword tilts and IC options. It's so good. Loses to good spacing and OoS options though, only use it when you know it'll cross up and they're blindly rushing in. The invincibility frames from constantly refreshing the ledge will make it safer than it should be.

YEAHHHH... start experimenting. Down B is a pretty underrated option. I was hitting M2K with it the other week (and I do it to everyone) and it's pretty safe. He, like most people who first get hit by it, gets confused and tries doing really reckless crap to punish it. Don't fool around Marth though. **** that *****.

- The reflector hop from the ledge is the best option for if you had grabbed the edge without the use of a Phantasm or Firebird because it keeps you from receiving the RCO lag. Just letting you know if you need some incentive to using it.

- Falco can plank and has tons of options. He just has a really high risk/reward. The reward is a lot more than people give the character credit though. He ain't an MK, but he does have flexible options that most Falcos are afraid to explore. Practice in friendlies, who cares if you drop friendlies to ssjdragonlord1994.

- Hit back + jump, then Phantasm immediately. YEAAAA... fastest way to regrab the ledge. (Really good against the Marth MU *cough*)

I hope this helped. I didn't read anyone else's posts so lol

Nope, Winter is.
I'm trying to hype up all my 3 fans, stfu!
 
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Were you using his shine in the air or on the ground? I agree its an underrated move in the air, even though the reward is not much. Still, 5-6 percent is helpful.

To add to this, the hitbox which has the sourspot is actually around Falco's waist. SH over bowser and Uair on the way up. You could be able to get the sourspot pretty often doing that.
 

Host Change

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- The reflector hop from the ledge is the best option for if you had grabbed the edge without the use of a Phantasm or Firebird because it keeps you from receiving the RCO lag. Just letting you know if you need some incentive to using it.
I like doing that a lot against Diddy. Reflector really is underrated.
 

1PokeMastr

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Mad random, I didn't read through the ledge options but let me teach you all something with the jump button:


- Hit back + jump, then Phantasm immediately. YEAAAA... fastest way to regrab the ledge. (Really good against the Marth MU *cough*)
Yeah, no. Just no.

I'm not even going to bother counting how many times I've tippered Fsmashed Falco's who've tried this against my Marth.
 

teluoborg

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Yeah, and about that :
- The reflector hop from the ledge is the best option for if you had grabbed the edge without the use of a Phantasm or Firebird because it keeps you from receiving the RCO lag. Just letting you know if you need some incentive to using it.
If you haven't grabbed the ledge with side/up B you don't have RCO at all, then you can do w/e you want.
If you have RCO tho, landing on stage with down B will shunt the RCO and you'll keep it for later, just as if you used the ledge attack or the ledge roll.
 

Host Change

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Does anybody know anything about doing a BDACUS out of catching an item? I was playing a teams match in tournament Saturday and I did this on accident. I'm pretty sure that I did NOT airdodge when catching Peach's turnip. If this turns out to be something useful, it could help us in the Diddy matchup perhaps.
 

-Cross-

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If you have an item in hand, then you can't bdacus. If you're asking if you can bdacus and catch an item with it, then yes it's possible. DACUS catches items b/c of the dash attack component so there is no reason that bdacus shouldn't. I really don't think it'll really help in the diddy mu. It'll just be a situational option, b/c you need to buffer bdacus from a previous option to even use it.
 
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No, it is not needed. People have been able to pull of a dacus with the wii+nunchuck (not sure the methods). However, I am not sure how one might pull it off on simply the wiimote.

Having a stick for smashes merely makes it easier since you have to make fast inputs, and the c-stick has some nice properties to allow that.
 

1PokeMastr

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No, it is not needed. People have been able to pull of a dacus with the wii+nunchuck (not sure the methods). However, I am not sure how one might pull it off on simply the wiimote.

Having a stick for smashes merely makes it easier since you have to make fast inputs, and the c-stick has some nice properties to allow that.
Gcc can be done with C-Stick and Attack/ Grab. Or.. Just the Attack button for all the Inputs.

Wii Chucks.. I assume would be Dash attack input + Up on Smash Pad, I also know it can be done by using Shake Smash.

CCPro/ CC would be similar to Gcc.

Wii Mote Sideways for now is impossible.




As for in the Diddy Mu, if you're CG'ing and there's a Banana on the ground, you can BPG over to grab it.
 

SnowCold

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Momentum Cancelling?

Which is the better move/faster move for momentum cancelling, Bair or Upair? I see people do both, but I have no idea which one is actually faster. Thanks :)
 

1PokeMastr

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Uair is the momentum cancel, it ends slightly faster than Bair, so it's better.

And for Vertical Momentum Cancel, use Fair since it moves your Hurtbox out of the blast Zone.
 

SN Viper

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Uair is the momentum cancel, it ends slightly faster than Bair, so it's better.

And for Vertical Momentum Cancel, use Fair since it moves your Hurtbox out of the blast Zone.

The anamations for both bair and up air are the same length 40 frames. Up air has IASA frames that start on frame 37 i believe. This way if you are buffing a jump or another air att it will come out 3 frames quicker.

regardless poke is right.

I never thought of using fair for that reason. Thats really clever.

So your saying fair then fast fall?
 

SnowCold

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The anamations for both bair and up air are the same length 40 frames. Up air has IASA frames that start on frame 37 i believe. This way if you are buffing a jump or another air att it will come out 3 frames quicker.

regardless poke is right.

I never thought of using fair for that reason. Thats really clever.

So your saying fair then fast fall?
Okay, thanks guys! That's been on my mind for awhile now :), and using fair for VMC is really neat! I guess fair does have some use :)
 

1PokeMastr

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Viper.

Bair's first actionable frame is 37.
Uair's is frame 35.

Always use Uair, aside from the Fair.


And yes, Fair -> Fast Fall.
 
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Uair/Bair for its speed duration. Fair now because it realigns your hitbox. And Dair simply because when set to smashes it auto-cancels for you without having to make any inputs on the control stick. Every aerial has its uses lol

Poke, do you happen know what other characters that might work for offhand? I know the Snake's have had that idea in mind when using Bair vs Uair for momentum canceling purposes, but Falco is the first of any other character I've heard using that idea.
 

-LzR-

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So you guys aren't aware the your characters hurtboxes don't matter with blastzones? The part that checks the blastzone stuff is in the center on your character. No matter what move you use it stays there. Using fair to mometum cancel is just embarrassing yourself.
 
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That sounds familiar, but I think this is the first I heard of that. Since you check this I suppose you'll come around eventually again, but what center of the character? Is there a particular bone that would map to this "center" of the character?
 

Linkshot

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That sounds familiar, but I think this is the first I heard of that. Since you check this I suppose you'll come around eventually again, but what center of the character? Is there a particular bone that would map to this "center" of the character?
All hitbox x,y,z coordinates originate from the center of a character, informally referred to as "Bone 0", so that's what you can consider to be the center. I have a feeling, concerning blastzones, that any bone can touch it to be considered death. I've tried to momentum cancel before and had times when my animation pretty much moved my character's arm into the blastzone and killed me. That's what it felt like, at least.

EDIT: I'll trust -LzR- and assume it just suspicion, though.
 

-LzR-

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I haven't personally tried it or anything, but I have heard it from several people who explained why it doesn't matter if Snake bairs or uairs for mometum canceling.
 
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