Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Slaps]

i hate fighting falco with ike its such a stupid match up =[

god **** stunning lasers! it pisses me off so much all falco players if they arent chain grabbing they are shooting those god forsaken lasers! Good thing i got a good vid of me ****** a falco for the compilation lol

 

[Kishin]

I mentioned some stuff that all Lucarios could do. A Lucario could simple roll away charge aura sphere, and repeat. If you don't space correctly then Lucario's roll behind you will be too far away to hit with a turn around jab. And with Lucario's disjointed hitboxes, it's rather difficult to space well against him. If Lucario wants to he can be a fair distance from the ledge and time and control his up+b correctly to sweet spot the ledge if your off stage. The only thing I'm asking is for the match-up to be at the very least 7-3 because 6-4 is just too inaccurate. Superb IASA framed on F-smash, ability to easily gimp Ike, among other things, couldn't possible be a 6-4 match-up imo.

I'm bored and done with talking about Lucario now.


I thing I asked this before but I don't quite remember the answer. Is D-smash good? I think I slightly remember it being a so-so move for Ike mainly used for predicting those who like to roll behind you but now I've been thinking it's pretty good and we aren't giving the move all the credit it deserves.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Thing about hitting lucario before he hits you when recovering is his F-smash range > aether range. Also, his F-smash has incredible IASA frames that can be deceivingly deadly. Lucario can easily abuse his roll dodge to get in and out of your face while being safe. Lucario's tilts are insanely good too for setting up combos and racking damage up. I think YagamiLight needs to be here for this... but he hasn't logged in for quite some time for some reason. I'm guessing he's just busy.

It's possible thats just something your doing wrong. Lucario's Fsmash doesn't have as much disjointed range as it apears, the reason its so huge is because he steps forward and this can put him in danger if hes just spamming it at the edge. If hes charging it it is harder to hit him but you can still do it in certain stages if you can't hit him he can't hit you.

Battle field aether range > lucario fsmash range.

Also yagamilight only plays wifi and doesn't have any tourney experience I'm not sure what you want him for. He usually knows what hes talking about with data but his match up ideas are a bit iffy.

i hate fighting falco with ike its such a stupid match up =[

I don't find this match up very hard anymore, I usually just let him shoot me to 35% or so and then attack falco doesn't have much from there the only thing he can do is camp. He doesn't have much to get you out of his face either perhaps Ftilt but its range is pretty bad and its not that fast of a move. He can't run fast nor move through the air very well which is why he is going to be moving mainly through phantasm and Ike has a good number of things that can get around that you just have to get the timing right.

 

[Kishin]

In that case YagamiLight is needed to effectively edit the match-up thread at least.

Also, I didn't think wi-fi or non wi-fi would actually make a difference in deciding match-ups. I thought match-ups were based on most if not all the options character1 had for character2 in most if not all the options character2 has against character1. Or at least something to that effect...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In that case YagamiLight is needed to effectively edit the match-up thread at least.

Also, I didn't think wi-fi or non wi-fi would actually make a difference in deciding match-ups. I thought match-ups were based on most if not all the options character1 had for character2 in most if not all the options character2 has against character1. Or at least something to that effect...

lol

Wifi makes a HUGE difference in match-ups. That small (if lucky it's only small) bit of lag makes a huge difference in what combos work and don't work, slows down button input: it's a whole different game on wifi.

For example, Captain Falcon is actually usable over wifi.

 

[Kishin]

lol

Wifi makes a HUGE difference in match-ups. That small (if lucky it's only small) bit of lag makes a huge difference in what combos work and don't work, slows down button input: it's a whole different game on wifi.

For example, Captain Falcon is actually usable over wifi.

Game play wise, it makes a difference. I was referring in my post as the options you have. Both your opponents and your own options, lagless, or lag filled, will be the same in both. Skill level is not factored in with match-ups so lag is not an issue. If there is a combo that works offline then that combo WILL work online as well. It's simply just your ability to perform it online.

 

[comboking]

that is very true

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Game play wise, it makes a difference. I was referring in my post as the options you have. Both your opponents and your own options, lagless, or lag filled, will be the same in both. Skill level is not factored in with match-ups so lag is not an issue. If there is a combo that works offline then that combo WILL work online as well. It's simply just your ability to perform it online.

that part was actually dumber than the wifi no affecting things. The opinions from other boards on a match up is greatly inaccurate at times and the perfect example is lucario. Some of the most active lucarios have come in here and said the match up is 90-10 with out even knowing what DI actually is.

And yes lag is an issue why don't you go play ness in lag and then go play pikachu then tell me that there is no difference between there offline versions. If you can't tell the difference then your as bad a CK

 

[comboking]

Do I have to battle you again?

 

[Kishin]

... Match-ups, do not, factor in, the individual skill levels, of the player. Skill level determines how well YOU would do in the situation. It's about what's possible. The inability to do a combo doesn't erase the combo's existence. If a Lucario comes and states a match up like that then they certainly need good reasoning... The Lucarios have not yet posted a match-up for Ike. Lag is NOT an issue for a match-up. Good match-ups are the things you are able to do if your opponent does whatever.

Listen... there are no wi-fi combos that ONLY work on wi-fi and offline combos that purely work offline. If Ice climbers attempts an inescapable 0-death chain grab on you. It matters not if he attempts it offline or online, IT'S STILL AN INESCAPABLE COMBO. That being said, wi-fi lag will more than likely change the button input timing and such but IT'S STILL AN INESCAPABLE COMBO. If he messes up, in wi-fi or offline, that's his fault BUT it's still there and can still **** that crap out of you. It's not impossible to do it online though because IT'S STILL AN INESCAPABLE COMBO. Match-ups should not factor in skill level nor wi-fi. Some things such as SDI are so frame perfect though that they aren't viable as a major match-up decider. It's possible, but not probable.

Ike boards...

EDIT: Also, this has yet to be discussed.

I thing I asked this before but I don't quite remember the answer. Is D-smash good? I think I slightly remember it being a so-so move for Ike mainly used for predicting those who like to roll behind you but now I've been thinking it's pretty good and we aren't giving the move all the credit it deserves.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

For god sakes your the only one who keeps bring up skill. And match ups do factor in skill they factor in the top level of skill available in the current metagame. Why are you trying to lecture us on how match ups work we've been doing this for a while now.

Yes there are wifi combos only wifi's lag does not allow you to SDI 1st because brawl has hardly any hitstun and now the inputs you put durring those frames of hit stun are not counted because the game does not read it until you have gone through those frames.

For example Kirby's Fthrow to uair to regrab. This does not work offline because you can SDI up go try and get out of it on an HD tv or on wifi. Or how about flaco's jab offline you can interrupt his A-A combo by SDIing down and jabbing but how are you going to do that if you are being hit by the second jab by the time the game reads your input?

There are such things as wifi only combos saying other wise is plain stupid weather you like it or not you can't make your self look better and get your opinion to matter more by saying "omg I play lots of people on wifi!"

Using lots of CAPS doesn't help either.

Oh wow I just read the last 2 sentences of that stupid wifi argument and just wow...Well match ups factor in only 1 skill level and that is the highest possible, they do not factor in wifi because its a piece of crap, and they will always factor in SDI just because scrubs who only play wifi can't do it does not being it doesn't matter. SDI plays a huge factor in any game if you don't do it you just suck.

Wifi scrubs....

 

[Teh Brettster]

Holy crap, guys. Are we really fighting?

Kishin has a point. The possibility of a combo is nonetheless existent, no matter whether the game is on- or off-line. If it happens, you shouldn't be surprised.

But. Arturo is right, too. You can really expect someone to miss such combos a lot more when they're playing online.

But honestly. Neither of you should try to make such a generalization about the situation. Some people can pull off the combos when on wifi, and a lot of people can't. The match-up isn't made different if the person can still pull off everything they have, which, in theory, they are able to do. But in reality, you -may- have a better chance of winning. This is due to the other person's increased tendency to err, not because the character is worsened online.

You both need to realize that the other is speaking the truth... because you're both right-- to some extent.

 

[Rykoshet]

The Lucarios have not yet posted a match-up for Ike. Lag is NOT an issue for a match-up.

They have discussed it, and just quit while you're behind.

 

[Kishin]

SDI exists in wi-fi. Because SDI is frame perfect though, it's extremely difficult to pull off on wi-fi. It works in theory but with wi-fi lag it's not probable enough to work regularly. That's the game play thing... In wi-fi you won't be able to react accordingly to what happens in a match when it happens. But, you could indeed randomly C-stick somewhere beforehand and have it SDI. You are referring to SDI'ing purposely to avoid something, which is skill, and in wi-fi you couldn't regularly SDI purposely for that. But, you could be trying to U-smash with your c-stick and the game just happens to read that input in the moment needed to break out of said combo. You may not have intended it but it's still SDI.

Skill varies from player to player. A highest possible skill for a player would be Powershielding every single attack possible, shield grabbing every opportunity possible, and all the other technical whatever. That's how I perceive skill, seems we perceive it both differently...

1. "Wifi makes a HUGE difference in match-ups"
2. "Well match ups factor in only 1 skill level and that is the highest possible, they do not factor in wifi because its a piece of crap"

weird...

I haven't read the Lucario thread, I just simply glanced at the chart to see the numbers for Ike, and there were none. My feeble mind comprehends things better when match-ups are things I can easily understand such as numbers.

The point I was indeed trying to accomplish making was that YES, what you do offline and in wi-fi are different in most cases. But the things you can do in either offline and wi-fi and both possible.

I didn't look at this as fighting, more so a debate. The activity on this sub forum is rather low and pretty boring honestly. If you wanted a fight then the Jigglypuff's had a mishap for a bit but it's resolved now and no hard feelings seem to be left. They are now working diligently to discover and help improve their character's game. Heck, even the Falcon boards are improving more so than here. I hate to say it but the Ike boards don't seem as dedicated compared to the other boards. But then again, I don't know much about Ike and perhaps everyone believes all has been discovered about Ike as possible. But there still should at least be some effort in hopes to disprove that thought no?

 

[Rykoshet]

SDI exists in wi-fi. Because SDI is frame perfect though, it's extremely difficult to pull off on wi-fi. It works in theory but with wi-fi lag it's not probable enough to work regularly. That's the game play thing... In wi-fi you won't be able to react accordingly to what happens in a match when it happens. But, you could indeed randomly C-stick somewhere beforehand and have it SDI. You are referring to SDI'ing purposely to avoid something, which is skill, and in wi-fi you couldn't regularly SDI purposely for that. But, you could be trying to U-smash with your c-stick and the game just happens to read that input in the moment needed to break out of said combo. You may not have intended it but it's still SDI.

Again, quit while you're behind. You do account for player skill in a matchup scenario, you just don't account for DIFFERENCES in player skill. There's a significant difference between being able to use the BEST tool to get out of multi hit scenarios willingly and only being able to fluke it.

There are things you can account for in offline play that you can not account for in online play. There are reasonable expectations of a higher skilled player that wi-fi does NOT allow you to accomplish. Perfect example is powershielding effectively to approach a spammer. Everyone in my crew consistently power shields incoming projectiles when approaching, I do not expect any of them to be able to do the same thing online.

And in matchup scenarios, you're working under the assumption that both players are at least of the skill to know how to SDI...

 

[Kishin]

Again, quit while you're behind. You do account for player skill in a matchup scenario, you just don't account for DIFFERENCES in player skill. There's a significant difference between being able to use the BEST tool to get out of multi hit scenarios willingly and only being able to fluke it.

There are things you can account for in offline play that you can not account for in online play. There are reasonable expectations of a higher skilled player that wi-fi does NOT allow you to accomplish. Perfect example is powershielding effectively to approach a spammer. Everyone in my crew consistently power shields incoming projectiles when approaching, I do not expect any of them to be able to do the same thing online.

And in matchup scenarios, you're working under the assumption that both players are at least of the skill to know how to SDI...

Errr, those words were meant to go against the combos offline and combos on wi-fi thing. My scrubbish conception of skill is in the paragraph below.

 

[Rykoshet]

My response covered both.

 

[Teh Brettster]

So yeah. On to that Dsmash question...

*Goes to sleep hoping that will spark conversation other than bickering over this dead argument*

 

[Kishin]

Well, the wi-fi vs offline combo whatever thing was the possibility of offline combos and SDI, online. I already completely agree that in wi-fi it is extremely difficult to do certain things and improbable to attempt at certain situations but the possibility exists. The skill stuff was directed toward the highest skill level possible which from my stand point would be the technical skill of PS'ing EVERYTHING possible and etc. I agree that knowledge of something could be considered skill but the actual input of it in the right situation is skill. Seems like I've been repeating the same scrubberish over and over but whatever. I'll gladly refute any argument I've put up that has been shot down.

Yes, let's move on to D-smash. In hopes to improve Ike's game...

 

[metroid1117]

DSmash, while it is fast (for Ike's moves, at least), is not very good; the first hit doesn't send your opponent very far (I think UTilt has more knockback, actually...) and the second hit makes it impossible to follow up with anything if you hit with the first. The second hit is reasonably powerful, but you're only going to get it off if you read their roll or spot-dodge (but why DSmash when you can BAir in that scenario? Unless they're too short...). Probably the only time you should use DSmash is jab -> DSmash, but in that scenario you'd probably be able to jab -> UTilt/BAir as well.

 

[Kishin]

DSmash, while it is fast (for Ike's moves, at least), is not very good; the first hit doesn't send your opponent very far (I think UTilt has more knockback, actually...) and the second hit makes it impossible to follow up with anything if you hit with the first. The second hit is reasonably powerful, but you're only going to get it off if you read their roll or spot-dodge (but why DSmash when you can BAir in that scenario? Unless they're too short...). Probably the only time you should use DSmash is jab -> DSmash, but in that scenario you'd probably be able to jab -> UTilt/BAir as well.

Would perhaps a D-smash OoS be useful? It seems reasonably fast for it to be so. If you're close enough then it can possibly hit twice, doing more damage than B-air/Jab. Plus, conserving the power of B-air is good.

 

[san.]

IMO dsmash is useless. I laugh on the inside whenever I see an Ike attempt it.

 

[Palpi]

I have only seen 1 ike use it once in the past 3 months and I have only used it once. (my eyes were closed) It is bad.

 

[Alukard]

it has hit stun lol

ints pretty good in doubles people ... gets those stupid rolling bast*rds off ur *** and ur team mate and hit them after =]

 

[comboking]

Well, the wi-fi vs offline combo whatever thing was the possibility of offline combos and SDI, online. I already completely agree that in wi-fi it is extremely difficult to do certain things and improbable to attempt at certain situations but the possibility exists. The skill stuff was directed toward the highest skill level possible which from my stand point would be the technical skill of PS'ing EVERYTHING possible and etc. I agree that knowledge of something could be considered skill but the actual input of it in the right situation is skill. Seems like I've been repeating the same scrubberish over and over but whatever. I'll gladly refute any argument I've put up that has been shot down.

Yes, let's move on to D-smash. In hopes to improve Ike's game...

Just let me put in my 2 cents.

Wifi takes skill. Getting used to the lag in every match takes some skill. "Combos" on wifi takes more patients. It's a completely different game online. But what if brawl was a game without offline multiplayer?

 

[Ussi]

Wifi has takes skill yes... but that skill is never implemented in tournaments or offline play, which requires different and BETTER skill.

This is of course assuming ideal wifi connections. If there is lag, then there is no skill since no one is controlling what they are doing.

 

[comboking]

I wouldn't say better.
But it does take different skill.

 

[metroid1117]

Would perhaps a D-smash OoS be useful? It seems reasonably fast for it to be so. If you're close enough then it can possibly hit twice, doing more damage than B-air/Jab. Plus, conserving the power of B-air is good.

If you're that close to your opponent on the front end, I'd think a better option would be to drop your shield and jab; a fresh jab -> jab combo does more damage than a fresh DSmash, and jab -> grab puts more pressure on your opponent than DSmash in my opinion, especially since you can BThrow -> dash attack at certain %.

 

[Teh Brettster]

DSmash is kind of like QD in that it's a good thing to do while your opponent is dead and you're going for the intimidation factor. =P
Other than that, it's almost never useful. I mean. If you're on a platform on BF and your opponent is falling down one level below you at (very) high damage and that's the only move that will both reach him in time and have the power to kill, maybe you can use it.
But really, I've only used Dsmash like twice in the past month-- both times were accidents. I mean, I killed with it both times, but... rather than saying it's a useful move, I think I'll say I was scared of the chances of being struck by lightning after that.

"Combos" on wifi takes more patients.

I didn't know we had to be successful doctors to play Wifi. =P

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Just let me put in my 2 cents.

Wifi takes skill. Getting used to the lag in every match takes some skill. "Combos" on wifi takes more patients. It's a completely different game online. But what if brawl was a game without offline multiplayer?

A game with only online multiplayer from nintendo? stop scurrying for scraps wifi sucks and yes offline skill is a lot greater because SDI is a requirement to advance your game while online you can perfectly manage with out it.

You will also face a higher level of people offline and you can not argue this because M2K > ally is a fact of life for now.

 

[theeboredone]

Just let me put in my 2 cents.

Wifi takes skill. Getting used to the lag in every match takes some skill. "Combos" on wifi takes more patients. It's a completely different game online. But what if brawl was a game without offline multiplayer?

Before I personally come up to Minnesota or whever the hell you live and kick your ***, I will explain in a very angry matter on your ********, down-syndrome, childish, RoK The Reaper statement.

First off, there are different levels of lag in each match. Some lag more than others, so you can't constantly be adjusting to all levels of lag. You're not going to have a "yellow" connection with everyone you play and even if you did, some might lag more than others. You are right ont he fact that it is a different game online, a very poor game. Online really is meant for casual smash players who care about getting trophies and playing FFA. Competitive players should only use wifi for the lawlz and exploring new things.

Finally, if brawl was a game without offline multiplayer, then the servers for the game would have been much better. And what kind of fighting game does not have offline multiplayer? That's the dumbest statement I have ever heard. What are you going to do when you go over to a friend's house..."Hey! Let's get online to play a game against each other!".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnAiPTJbzpw

 

[comboking]

#1 That was a Rhetorical question.
#2 I know offline is better.
#3 I don't care I play wifi and I'm going to keep playing Wifi

 

[Kimchi]

IMO dsmash is useless. I laugh on the inside whenever I see an Ike attempt it.

You laughed at me quite a lot then

DSmash, while it is fast (for Ike's moves, at least), is not very good; the first hit doesn't send your opponent very far (I think UTilt has more knockback, actually...) and the second hit makes it impossible to follow up with anything if you hit with the first. The second hit is reasonably powerful, but you're only going to get it off if you read their roll or spot-dodge (but why DSmash when you can BAir in that scenario? Unless they're too short...). Probably the only time you should use DSmash is jab -> DSmash, but in that scenario you'd probably be able to jab -> UTilt/BAir as well.

If I'm not mistaken, I think Jab -> Dsmash comes out faster than either Jab ->Utilt/Bair framewise. But then I could be wrong. I could see Jab -> Dsmash being more useful than either Utilt/Bair though when your opponent's trapped between going offstage or rolling behind you.

Just let me put in my 2 cents.

Wifi takes skill. Getting used to the lag in every match takes some skill. "Combos" on wifi takes more patients. It's a completely different game online. But what if brawl was a game without offline multiplayer?

While I understand where you're coming from saying that Wi-Fi requires skill, Wi-Fi does not prove anything. For example, about 2 months ago, I played Ryko offline. I got pretty much wrecked the first couple of matches because I was, until then, a Wi-Fi player. But about a week ago, I played Ryko on Wi-Fi and he did much worse than offline. What does this mean? It means that Wi-Fi is inferior to offline. No matter what, any player will do better offline than online. How could it make sense if you were a player who did better with lag instead of without lag? Your logic could be used the other way in saying that Offline is a completely different game than Online. What I'm trying to say is, offline does require more skill than online. And Bored's right in saying that there are different connections. A game without offline multiplayer is just... no comment.
About Dsmash though, is there a chance that it could be a spike? I've never heard of it being possible, but if you hit your opponent with the bottom of Ragnell with your first hit or second hit, would it have spiking properties?

 

[comboking]

Have u heard of the conduit or CoD:WaW

 

[metroid1117]

If I'm not mistaken, I think Jab -> Dsmash comes out faster than either Jab ->Utilt/Bair framewise. But then I could be wrong. I could see Jab -> Dsmash being more useful than either Utilt/Bair though when your opponent's trapped between going offstage or rolling behind you.

From Kirk's frame data, jab -> BAir is slower than jab -> UTilt/DSmash, which are tied in terms of speed; both come out in 13 frames. However, from personal experience, it seems as though DSmash's hitbox when coming out is higher than UTilt's hitbox when coming out; that might be why it seems faster, since you don't have to wait for your opponent to drop to the ground.

About Dsmash though, is there a chance that it could be a spike? I've never heard of it being possible, but if you hit your opponent with the bottom of Ragnell with your first hit or second hit, would it have spiking properties?

I personally have never heard about DSmash being a spike or have seen it spike, but that's just me.

 

[comboking]

DSmash is kind of like QD in that it's a good thing to do while your opponent is dead and you're going for the intimidation factor. =P
Other than that, it's almost never useful. I mean. If you're on a platform on BF and your opponent is falling down one level below you at (very) high damage and that's the only move that will both reach him in time and have the power to kill, maybe you can use it.
But really, I've only used Dsmash like twice in the past month-- both times were accidents. I mean, I killed with it both times, but... rather than saying it's a useful move, I think I'll say I was scared of the chances of being struck by lightning after that.


I didn't know we had to be successful doctors to play Wifi. =P

lol I thought no one would notice
btw Bored I did not know ******** people could type with a keyboard and a wii.

 

[Teh Brettster]

btw Bored I did not know ******** people could type with a keyboard and a wii.

CK... stop saying words. It's not helping you.



Kimchi: about spiking. I'm quite sure dsmash doesn't do it-- probably why we all use dtilt.

 

[theeboredone]

Yea, I don't think D-smash spikes. The only use I see for it is if you know your opponent's habits and you can use it to deal a good 10+ dmg. Also, you can use it as a part of refreshing your other moves.

BTW, I've been developing a new style, so give me some input on this. It's still in the works and if anything, I spam it like an idiot without a clear conscious on when to use it, but I've been thinking about using B-air as an approach. This consists of the fact that you have virtually no landing lag after a b-air and you can do several things afterwards from turning around and jabbing or grabbing, to doing another b-air. B-Air can be used as a retreating option or an approaching option and if used correctly, can be good against characters like DDD who are trying to CG you. Kimchi has seen some of it, but he could tell you that I look like a guy on crack when doing this.

 

[Slaps]

I personally have never heard about DSmash being a spike or have seen it spike, but that's just me.

One time I used U-tilt to stage spike... I wasn't trying to stage spike him, but it managed to happen.. lol

 

[comboking]

Yea, I don't think D-smash spikes. The only use I see for it is if you know your opponent's habits and you can use it to deal a good 10+ dmg. Also, you can use it as a part of refreshing your other moves.

BTW, I've been developing a new style, so give me some input on this. It's still in the works and if anything, I spam it like an idiot without a clear conscious on when to use it, but I've been thinking about using B-air as an approach. This consists of the fact that you have virtually no landing lag after a b-air and you can do several things afterwards from turning around and jabbing or grabbing, to doing another b-air. B-Air can be used as a retreating option or an approaching option and if used correctly, can be good against characters like DDD who are trying to CG you. Kimchi has seen some of it, but he could tell you that I look like a guy on crack when doing this.

Show me sometime PLZ!