Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Kimchi]

Wall tech jumping can be performed by holding up while you tech; I'm not 100% sure, but if you walljump out of a tech without stopping you momentum somehow (using an attack), you might be sent too far for Aether to work if you don't react quickly enough.

Naturally, teching gets harder and harder the more damage you accumulate and the closer you are to the wall; there's more frames of hitlag the more damage you have, which can throw off your timing. I don't think the timing is changed too drastically though, so I think you can just time it so that you press R/L when hitlag ends; you'll need a feel for the amount of hitlag to do this.

Alright. And holding R/L or constantly pressing it doesn't help does it?

 

[comboking]

Wall tech jumping can be performed by holding up while you tech; I'm not 100% sure, but if you walljump out of a tech without stopping you momentum somehow (using an attack), you might be sent too far for Aether to work if you don't react quickly enough.

Naturally, teching gets harder and harder the more damage you accumulate and the closer you are to the wall; there's more frames of hitlag the more damage you have, which can throw off your timing. I don't think the timing is changed too drastically though, so I think you can just time it so that you press R/L when hitlag ends; you'll need a feel for the amount of hitlag to do this.

Don't you need tap jump on then? I'll go test this stuff

 

[metroid1117]

Don't you need tap jump on then? I'll go test this stuff

Hmm that's a good question... I don't think so, since it's more like a wall jump than jumping with up, but it's worth testing.

 

[Palpi]

For the wall jump you shouldn't need tap jump.

 

[comboking]

No we do not need it on. I tested it.

 

[Kishin]

So, how do you beat Lucario and what's the match up for him?

 

[Teh Brettster]

Step one: don't go an INCH above the edge when you recover with Aether. You'll eat an aura sphere or fsmash. And they doesn't tastes very nice.
Step two: don't get grabbed while you are both at low damage. You'll eat around 45%, but it depends on his damage. Chaingrabs doesn't tastes very nice either.
And remember, his upB does no damage. You can use this to your advantage.

There's probably lots of stuff to know, but those are big ones.

 

[Kishin]

How to approach? Kinda hard to get out once he strings you with combos in the air. So air approaches are kind of hard. There are aura spheres on the ground... I just don't know what to do about it.

 

[Palpi]

It is 6-4 lucario's favor. I think it is a little less. Jab jab dash grab works maybe 90% of the time I do it, with completel SDI. Don't be afraid to use quick draw as a recovery if you KNOW you can reach the edge or get over him to avoid aurasphere. You almost can't spike him. I get maybe 1 spike/7-8 matches I have only gotten 1 dtilt spike because his fair reach too far. Try to outspace lucario's disjointed / lingering hit boxes with retreating fairs. You can power shield aurasphere camp as approaching / jump over it and do some spacing fairs. Nair is also a good choise but if shielded you can take some decent dmg. You can also wiggle out of force palm. Anything to avoid chaingrab. (I havn't done it yet though) Bthrow > dash attack starts working at around 20% pretty good to apply offstage pressure with since his recovery deals no damage. Be careful for walk off attacks. I have been edge guarded after a walk off fair prolly twice in 2 days even if I hit him.

 

[Kimchi]

Lately, I've been really confused about what I'm supposed to do with Ike so can someone answer this question for me? What are the most viable approach options for Ike in a match? I know shield approaching, empty shorthopping, and double hopping are the most common, but besides from awful QD, what are other useful approaches?

 

[Kishin]

Wow... that CAN'T be right... Lucario I think should be at least 7-3... If you're offstage trying to recover then you will get gimped one way or another. His disjointed hit boxes > quick draw recover. Ike doesn't even have a fast enough move to escape the string of attacks lucario has. If you air dodge he can easily whiff out another attack and get ya. He has good aerial mobility so trying to hit him above you is pretty difficult especially with his D-air. Your N-air can't punish him rolling at all either. I just don't understand one bit how it could possibly be 6-4. A jab jab dash grab wouldn't be enough for that, if you can even land a jab with his rolls.

 

[theeboredone]

Wow... that CAN'T be right... Lucario I think should be at least 7-3... If you're offstage trying to recover then you will get gimped one way or another. His disjointed hit boxes > quick draw recover. Ike doesn't even have a fast enough move to escape the string of attacks lucario has. If you air dodge he can easily whiff out another attack and get ya. He has good aerial mobility so trying to hit him above you is pretty difficult especially with his D-air. Your N-air can't punish him rolling at all either. I just don't understand one bit how it could possibly be 6-4. A jab jab dash grab wouldn't be enough for that, if you can even land a jab with his rolls.

I've always found Lucario to be a tough match up, but then again, I find the Olimar match up pretty easy but understand why it's considered 7-3 in Oli's favor. Anyways, I agree completely with you. Lucario can just whip out aerial after aerial. Also, the fact that most of Lucario's moves have that gay energy aura thingy makes it hard to attack him. You have to space pretty well with Ike's f-air to hit him along with Ike's N-Air. Lucario can gimp you like mad with the projectile move when you are trying to aether back up. I think the best way to beat Lucario is to play defensively and read and react.

 

[Palpi]

Oli. Everything Ike does can be pivot grabbed and punished. If Ike doesn't approach then he gets spammed with throw.

Luke. I dunno, I have always done good against lucarios, probably since I have played Melo's lucario like 300 times. The forcepalm chain grab set up is jab jab, forward b. You can jab before the forward b. That is free 20% atleast there. Other than dair. If lucario misses with a fair, uair or especially nair while rising, you can air dodge unless you are pretty close under him then a quick dair will hit you, but it also slows his aerial movement.

I doubt this is a viable approach but I have missed a auto cancelled bair then jabbed a guy.. accidental ofcourse.

 

[comboking]

Lately, I've been really confused about what I'm supposed to do with Ike so can someone answer this question for me? What are the most viable approach options for Ike in a match? I know shield approaching, empty shorthopping, and double hopping are the most common, but besides from awful QD, what are other useful approaches?

RAR,Retreating FAirs&NAirs

 

[Palpi]

A good way to switch up approaches is to randomly throw in a dash attack since its range is very good. Most of the time it will get punished but then whenever you run at them they think dash attack, atleast when you are separated at start, then you can pivot grab them. These are all very situational approaches.. by situational I mean almost lucky(stupid). You know what moves works and what doesn't he doesn't really have a viable approach option. Just switch things up, bait your opponent etc.

 

[Kimchi]

RAR,Retreating FAirs&NAirs

RAR is an obvious one I knew about. And retreating FAir & Retreating Nairs for Approaching? I laughed.

A good way to switch up approaches is to randomly throw in a dash attack since its range is very good. A lot of the time it will get punished but then whenever you run at them they think dash attack, atleast when you are separated at start, then you can pivot grab them. These are all very situational approaches.. by situational I mean almost lucky. You know what moves works and what doesn't he doesn't really have a viable approach option. Just switch things up, bait your opponent etc.

I do throw in dash attacks in a while, but I'm talking about approaches in which Ike can up close and personal, the place where he plays best. There has to be more approaches that Ike could approach with. Not just with aerials, empty short hopping, QD, double hopping, shield approaching. If Ike is so limited to these with his approaches, there's no way that I could switch all of these options up and expect my opponent to fall for them. **** it, Ike is so limited.

 

[san.]

A good way to switch up approaches is to randomly throw in a dash attack since its range is very good. A lot of the time it will get punished but then whenever you run at them they think dash attack, atleast when you are separated at start, then you can pivot grab them. These are all very situational approaches.. by situational I mean almost lucky. You know what moves works and what doesn't he doesn't really have a viable approach option. Just switch things up, bait your opponent etc.

I can't see how someone can try to dodge a perceived dash attack and get pivot grabbed. Dash attack needs to be initiated a fair distance before the opponent, and the startup is pretty noticeable, too.

 

[Palpi]

Never said they were reliable. I have done them before, just asked for options. I sometimes play straight from the text books, and usually after a break from ike ( a week or so ) my plays gets a bit unorthodox.

 

[san.]

Wish I knew what a textbook Ike was. Every Ike I've played is so different, but maybe that's because I never really played many at all.

RAR is an obvious one I knew about. And retreating FAir & Retreating Nairs for Approaching? I laughed.
...
I do throw in dash attacks in a while, but I'm talking about approaches in which Ike can up close and personal, the place where he plays best. There has to be more approaches that Ike could approach with. Not just with aerials, empty short hopping, QD, double hopping, shield approaching. If Ike is so limited to these with his approaches, there's no way that I could switch all of these options up and expect my opponent to fall for them. **** it, Ike is so limited.

Sorry if this sounds idiotic, but what's wrong with fair/nair? Spaced, it's pretty hard to punish and can prevent opponents from using some of their own aerials, too. Once you get a hit in, it's much easier to get into close quarters and possibly follow up.

Approaching options? What kinds of things are you thinking of? I guess dash shield cancelled jab or dodge could do something, or after double hopping, fast fall air dodge to jab(?). Maybe I just didn't understand the question right.

 

[theeboredone]

hmm well...as far as approaching goes you can mash B so you end up spinning and creating a tornado...oh wait wrong character.

Brawl isn't a game with much variety, especially when it comes to Ike. It's all about knowing your opponent's habits by studying them before hand and then applying the counter to their flaws. If it's someone you've never seen before, playing defensively to learn their style is a good way into learning how to approach them. So if it's a person who dodges a lot, a regular short hop n-air will hit them and lead to some jabs. Or if they shield a lot, start off with a grab. It's just about reading the opponent..

Also, you know this Kimch, but working on the B-air approach, you can do a retreating b-air to lure them, and turn in and jab.

 

[comboking]

Sorry if this sounds idiotic, but what's wrong with fair/nair? Spaced, it's pretty hard to punish and can prevent opponents from using some of their own aerials, too. Once you get a hit in, it's much easier to get into close quarters and possibly follow up.Approaching options

Exactly what I meant. You asked for advice just listen to what people have to say PLZ

 

[Kishin]

If you want a mix up then try a full hop B-air -> second jump B-air. A good anti-aerial defense and ground defense at time for the taller characters. You could try the jab walk toward them but probably a bad idea usually. Or, you could do what I do, BACK FLIP toward them. Because back flipping over projectiles is fun and you have the option of N-air, B-air, and Second Jump whatever.

Olimar is also difficult... his shield grabs completely **** you. He can camp the crap out of you. He has super armor whistle. Even if you space a F-air perfectly he can still grab you in your landing lag. It's hard to hit him with B-air since he's a small target. N-air is good for cleaving through the pikmin but shield grab still. I'd rather put olimar as 8-2 or at least 75-25.

I really think the lucario match up needs some major adjustment. I haven't had much luck in jabbing before the side+b comes out. The first 2 jabs knock me in the air, not sure if I was DI'ing down though... A high percentage Aura Sphere out prioritizes all our moves not counting counter right? For Aethering on the ledge so you won't even be above the ledge, if he doesn't gimp you before then, then he has his B-air to hit you out of Aether. 6-4 is just... not right.

 

[Kimchi]

Wish I knew what a textbook Ike was. Every Ike I've played is so different, but maybe that's because I never really played many at all.



Sorry if this sounds idiotic, but what's wrong with fair/nair? Spaced, it's pretty hard to punish and can prevent opponents from using some of their own aerials, too. Once you get a hit in, it's much easier to get into close quarters and possibly follow up.

Approaching options? What kinds of things are you thinking of? I guess dash shield cancelled jab or dodge could do something, or after double hopping, fast fall air dodge to jab(?). Maybe I just didn't understand the question right.

San, comboking said retreating Fair/Nair in response to my question about approaches
. In other words, moving into the offensive position with Ike, not the defensive style. Retreaing Fairs/Nairs are defensive, not offensive. As for approach options, I'm thinking of the kind where you can get up close and personal and stay there as long as you can. You understood the question correctly. I was simply asking if there are any other viable approach options apart from the ones I already listed, with the exception of QD.

Exactly what I meant. You asked for advice just listen to what people have to say PLZ

I don't listen to advice that's not helpful. I will gladly listen to the advice that people say if it's helpful.

If you want a mix up then try a full hop B-air -> second jump B-air. A good anti-aerial defense and ground defense at time for the taller characters. You could try the jab walk toward them but probably a bad idea usually. Or, you could do what I do, BACK FLIP toward them. Because back flipping over projectiles is fun and you have the option of N-air, B-air, and Second Jump whatever.

Those approaches sound pretty fun to try out. I haven't really gotten into backflipping towards my opponent because I just feel so vulnerable with my back turned, but I guess it could be a good approach.

 

[Palpi]

There really is no correct way to approach. Act on intuition, switch things up and think on your feet. It is ike.

I actually do full hop rar nair a decent amount, bair meh not so much. Gasp. I need to try RAR Shading lol.

I was talking to malcom and he said jab -> sh eruption. try it out. (I am kind of joking, but 50/50 you get punished or get super armor, if aggresive) lol

Kind of = almost completely

 

[Rykoshet]

Honestly I dont come across enough GOOD lucarios for me to input properly on the matchup, the only one I play is rather good (RJ in my crew) however that's just one person and from that I feel it's a 5-5 with bad options for recovery.

 

[comboking]

San, comboking said retreating Fair/Nair in response to my question about approaches
. In other words, moving into the offensive position with Ike, not the defensive style. Retreaing Fairs/Nairs are defensive, not offensive. As for approach options, I'm thinking of the kind where you can get up close and personal and stay there as long as you can. You understood the question correctly. I was simply asking if there are any other viable approach options apart from the ones I already listed, with the exception of QD.


I don't listen to advice that's not helpful. I will gladly listen to the advice that people say if it's helpful.


Those approaches sound pretty fun to try out. I haven't really gotten into backflipping towards my opponent because I just feel so vulnerable with my back turned, but I guess it could be a good approach.

In a way they can be used to get close to them

 

[Slaps]

BACK FLIP toward them. Because back flipping over projectiles is fun

I completely agree! lol flippy flippy flippy

BTW... i have a quick question... If olimar sticks one of his pikmen on you could it be possible to counter while its on you and you will immediately slash back at olimar? because i mean the pikmen is hurting you and it would be a surprise attack..

 

[comboking]

Yes you can I did it today
I might have the replay.

 

[Teh Brettster]

BTW... i have a quick question... If olimar sticks one of his pikmen on you could it be possible to counter while its on you and you will immediately slash back at olimar? because i mean the pikmen is hurting you and it would be a surprise attack..

Meh, I don't really think so... not as a viable attack. The Oli may or may not have thrown it if he were close enough to be hit. He'd just grab. And the counter would still only be the better option if it were countering a strong attack. Otherwise, it's probably better to stick to a move that could better set up combos, like nair or something to that effect. That's just me, though.

If, however, the Oli is way too far to punish and you have Pikmin on you, it does look cool to hit them away with a counter. =D

 

[Alukard]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227092

u guys should definitely show up if u can =D

 

[Ussi]

Sorry Alukard.. I'm gonna be playing B+ that day.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Just wondering, but is there a way to wall tech jump efficiently every time? I keep getting the timing wrong and only performing a wall tech and even with that, I sometimes struggle. Is constantly tapping R or L the best way to pull a tech off or do you have to get the exact timing?

Metriod explained it pretty well don't just tap as far fast as you can its pretty much just like meteor canceling with y or x you have to time it and if you do it to soon you get punished a few frames.

The one thing I would like to add is that to do a a wall jump tech you have to hold a direction left right and apparently up work from what I skimmed through. Down might work as well so it may just be any direction but idk go test it your self lol. Something I've noticed though is that teching is affected by weight, Ike and snake seem to have the same timing but I have trouble doing it with metaknight.

Honestly I dont come across enough GOOD lucarios for me to input properly on the matchup, the only one I play is rather good (RJ in my crew) however that's just one person and from that I feel it's a 5-5 with bad options for recovery.

You have the Ike head again

Lucario is a pretty hard match up IMO around 35-65. The biggest problem is getting back to the stage with out being Fsmashed/aura sphered. Both can be snuck under but the timing is very strict. Never fight this battle on FD yoshi's is good because the ledge is lower than the stage and it ducks you under everything with out much trouble. Besides that battle field and smashville would be the best to avoid being fsmashed by hitting him before he hits you.

For approaching I'm not sure what I do never fought a really spammy lucario but I would guess its just like any other character with a projectile except you can't spot dodge these because they travel pretty slow, you also can't spot dodge his usmash but if you shield it you can punish it with Ftilt.

 

[Rykoshet]

You have the Ike head again

It was just there to see if anyone would agree to be my doubles partner while they thought I still play Ike. I'm still a snake main, character's way more fun honestly.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

dang =\ I honestly don't see the apeal to Ike in doubles I haven't used him in serious doubles in about a month. Makes me feel kind of sad but he just gets juggled between players to easily and he can't save anyone.

 

[Rykoshet]

I just wanted someone who wanted to be my partner, not because I played snake.

 

[Kishin]

Thing about hitting lucario before he hits you when recovering is his F-smash range > aether range. Also, his F-smash has incredible IASA frames that can be deceivingly deadly. Lucario can easily abuse his roll dodge to get in and out of your face while being safe. Lucario's tilts are insanely good too for setting up combos and racking damage up. I think YagamiLight needs to be here for this... but he hasn't logged in for quite some time for some reason. I'm guessing he's just busy.

 

[Palpi]

lol. Do you play any lucarios offline? That is the best practice. It is not like there is that one "cheese" ike can do to beat lucario, just learn what to do through experience. One person isn't going to make the match up any easier. Usually when my friend abuses his roll i turn around and jab, not that hard. Down smash can be avoided with lucario's roll (both hits). Lucario's utilt is the really only good one for "actual combos." He can easily do it from a fair air dodge into you but it also has a hard set up. He can also start it from hitting with the tip of his dash attack.

 

[san.]

Anyone know the rough %s where fair can knock people on the ground(if there are ensured %s)? I like to dash attack if they roll away and dash-shield-->jab up close, or even fair--> dash attack if they're in the right position.

 

[Slaps]

A_B! Guess what! I think I'm going to make it to WHOBO!!!! =] I heard you and Brett set up some friendlies and if I go I wanna get in on some of that action =]

and thx on the info Brett, it was just an idea I had, and also i didn't mean counter as soon as the pikmen sticks on you i meant approuch oli while its on you and counter up close... But yeah just an idea not like that is my solid game plan for oli lol

 

[Alukard]

i hate fighting falco with ike its such a stupid match up =[