Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Nidtendofreak]

san and Mr. Doom are so active that they should automatically be high up, I agree.

Anyway, I've been testing something out and I thought I should share my thoughts with you guys. Basically, if you B Reverse a Counter after gaining momentum (be it natural momentum or foreign object based momentum [I tried it with a spring, personally]) you shift your speed and go in the OPPOSITE direction. My thinking here is, can this be applied to enemy attacks to make recovering easier as it provides a significant boost back to the stage while making you SLOWLY fall (or at least in the tests I did!)?

I'll do some more research on this by myself but if any of you can try it out as well then that'd be significantly more useful. More data!

Dude, if this works I'll be amazed. I want a video so I can brag that our recovery is better now.

 

[-RedX-]

Anyway, I've been testing something out and I thought I should share my thoughts with you guys. Basically, if you B Reverse a Counter after gaining momentum (be it natural momentum or foreign object based momentum [I tried it with a spring, personally]) you shift your speed and go in the OPPOSITE direction. My thinking here is, can this be applied to enemy attacks to make recovering easier as it provides a significant boost back to the stage while making you SLOWLY fall (or at least in the tests I did!)?

So uhhh,
Get sent flying->airdodge->B-reverse Counter?

 

[YagamiLight]

So uhhh,
Get sent flying->airdodge->B-reverse Counter?

Pretty much.

I'm trying it out in frame by frame mode at the moment, personally.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Do you have to AD first? Wouldn't it work like Bucket Breaking where you don't need to AD first, but with a few more inputs?

 

[Slaps]

I believe kimchi has some potential he plays smart and is quick to act. He just needs to get through those weird matchups he has problems with and gets to those tourneys rofl. I haven't been as active as you thought, bored. I believe I've only been to two tourneys this year, and one in December. I think Mr. Doom's more active than me.

Sounds to me like you are saying he is Asian..... Just saying.

 

[YagamiLight]

Do you have to AD first? Wouldn't it work like Bucket Breaking where you don't need to AD first, but with a few more inputs?

For G&W's bucket brake you need to Nair first. Game and watch's Nair ends faster than his airdodge so that's why he uses that. Ike's airdodge ends the fastest out of all of his options (frame 39 versus frame 55 for Bair and Dair) so that's the optimal thing to use to give you back control of your character.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ah, I forgot the Nair step. lol.

By estimation: how much more damage can we take using this tech?

 

[HeroMystic]

It's wavebouncing. Mario can do this with fireballs, but Ike's should be better since his start up faster and affects momentum directly.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's wavebouncing. Mario can do this with fireballs, but Ike's should be better since his start up faster and affects momentum directly.

Exactly.

And frankly: We need all of the help we can get. >_>

 

[Mr. Doom]

This "Counter-Breaking" sounds nice. Maybe I'll finally be able to live to over 300% damage. I'll see how this turns out, though.

 

[san.]

I haven't gotten it to work very well. Hard for me -_-. Can't tell if I've successfully wavebounced the counter, too.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I swear, Counter is Ike's most gimmicky move.

Counterdiving, SHCounter to stop your jumping momentum, Counter on a spring, Counter to survive Norfair lava...

 

[YagamiLight]

The best way to tell if you've gotten it to work is if Ike sort of bounces at around a 45 degree angles away from where you were facing (so at a 235 degree angle). It works with the Spring item for sure, just go to training mode, jump offstage with the spring and B Reverse the counter, you'll see the effects.

The only question is whether this can be used for enemy attacks and (if so) how much does it help?

 

[san.]

Well, I've been in training mode. 2 Ikes. I had 1 Ike ftilt the other, and I still get the penalty boost for countering, and I tried to wavebounce it every time... Or are you talking about an entirely different use for counter?

 

[YagamiLight]

We're talking about more or less the same thing, just different subsets of it. Wavebouncing the counter after getting hit still has you move in the direction of the attack from what I see.

What I think might be more important is if you jump on a spring (or jump off the stage yourself) build horizontal speed and wavebounce a counter then you'll see a significant boost back towards the stage. I was thinking this is a pretty safe way to come back to the stage, especially consider the invincibility frames of counter. This is really difficult to explain, sadly.

More testing is necessary!

 

[san.]

I think we should talk about edgeguarding for a while. I believe I'm quite skilled at it and can talk about it to a certain degree (sometimes get a lot of kills that way). I have seen many Ikes play, and lots of the time they just let the other character make it back to the stage without much worry.

I'm using dash attack to edgeguard a lot more lately. It kills jumps, and has priority over a majority of the moves in the game. Also, it hits at a nice angle (setup for full hop fair, bair, ftilt,drop down aether). It can also hit people hanging on ledge, so it's good against people used to ledge hopping. If they drop low/ we miss, we still may have time to block. At the edge you can buffer a dash attack whenever you want, too.

Against characters with short aerial range hanging on the ledge, spacing retreating SHFF fairs near the edge of the stage works, so the tip of the blade reaches them. They only have so much invincibility, so it's best when you time it for right when it ends. I end up switching between fairs and nairs depending on what I think they're going to do and their invincibility frames.

At low percents, dash attack to ftilt is sooo good I tell ya. It works a surprising number of times. Actually, I think ftilt edgeguard in general is a little underrated. It can be tilted up or down, and has great range and killpower near the edge of the stage. Tilted down, it can reach down near the ledge, and upwards blocks a majority of aerial approaches.

near the edge, I tend to space full hop fairs vs a lot of the cast, because they have no choice but to dodge it usually, and there isn't much risk to anyone not named MK. You can do two well spaced hopped fairs pretty far away from the stage and still return safely, or full hop fast fall a fair, too. I use L as jump so I can seamlessly double jump+retreat fair in one movement. It helps punish the inevitable air dodge when I jump offstage to space my aerials.

If you ever get a jab on someone at the edge, timing as many single jabs as possible (not too fast, not too slow) is pretty effective. Finish with a full jab combo if you feel they're about to pop out. On non-floaties, you would not want to try jab/dtilt very much unless it's from the very first jab and you'll believe they'll DI up. If they don't have an Up B gtho or quick disjointed aerial, it may be possible to finish with a runoff bair if you think something like dtilt will miss and at higher %. It seems to not give them much time to react, but it's still dodge-able.

1 more thing I forgot, which is pretty obvious: not to mention Ike can keep pushing opponents back to the edge with his powerful moves, so shielding is usually not an option to punish us from near the ledge.

tl;dr version

I believe on the edge, Ike can truly space his aerials/tilts without much harm. Fair becomes really useful. Dash attack offstage is pretty nice against some characters, etc. Abusing our options against offstage opponents is a necessity.

 

[Xyro77]

So whats up, guys?

 

[YagamiLight]

I found Dash Attack to edgeguard to be particularly effective in one of the tournament matches I played around 2 months ago. I'm going to avoid posting the video because my play in that match was embarrassing but the gist of the idea was that as soon as Falco grabbed the ledge I would position myself to be at the exact position for the tip of Dash Attack. The tip, for the record, has exactly 70 more base knockback than the middle of the sword. Upon hitting him with it (which was usually out of a drop or hop [it also covers like all of his ledge options]) it would force him to sweetspot back or eat an Ftilt. It's a VERY solid edgeguard.

EDIT:

So whats up, guys?

Screwing myself over by surfing SWF instead of doing work. Feels good.

 

[Xyro77]

This is WAY off the current topic but how do you RAR with ike? I see people like Bored do it in like a blink of an eye.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

there is nothing wrong with watching one piece guy above this post yagami

edit:god****it

 

[theeboredone]

Get wrecked Dark.

Xyro, all you do is, when facing the opponent, turn around+ jump+attack, It is pretty much done simultaneously. You're still holding the analog in the opposite direction when you jump. So just press "A" after that and bam, B-air. It can take some practice though, especially in cases when you run at the opponent, and then reverse B-air. If you mistime the jump, Ike will do his little "I'm turning around and sliding a bit on the ground" animation, and you won't jump at all and look stupid.

As far as edge guarding goes, speaking of dash attack...I know sometimes when I mess up on grabbing the edge very quickly to gimp an opponent (wifi), I initiate a dash attack, even though I barely have any space to run in the first place. Has anyone mastered this craft?

 

[san.]

It does take some quick movements to do a quick retreating RAR though.The worst part about Ike's bair is that you need to retreat it or there's a high chance for punishment (which is why L to jump helps with double jump retreating bairs =) )

@Bored

I briefly talked about it in my post. All you need to do is be able to buffer a dash on stage. Even works at the very edge. Dash+cstick simultaneously is all you need to do.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lol you rar with ike just like how you rar with every other character in the game.

 

[Slaps]

Don't tell him our secrets! he will use them against san! D= lol shhhhhhhhhh.

 

[theeboredone]

rar is a type of compression file used in computers.

 

[da K.I.D.]

san is right, his edgeguarding is really pro and its a big way he gets a lot of his kills, because if people do get onstage past his fairs theres usually a jab combo right there waiting for them to put them in the same exact position with +16%

 

[Kimchi]

San's right. I know that I'm an Ike that abuses edgeguarding way too much and sometimes get killed for it, but most of the options that san mentioned are great for edgeguarding and I use them in my own game very often. One of my favorites is FF Fair -> Jab if they try to come back onto the stage. Dash Attack is great if you time it well enough. Against MK, I'm finding Eruption a pretty good edgeguard. If they Drill rush to the ledge, your Eruption beats it. Eruption also beats out Shuttle Loop/Mach Tornado if you time it properly. But against MK, you have to be wary of his jumps. I usually like to start charging Eruption after MK uses 1-2 of his jumps offstage and wait for his recovery. If he uses his next jump to go towards you, you can expect he's going to try to challenge your Eruption with a Shuttle Loop or try to grab the ledge with his last jump or use his Cape to grab the ledge. If he uses his next jump to go away from you, expect a Nado recovery or a Drill Rush recovery, the latter being a very good choice for you to exploit. Nado just requires a bit of a more stricter timing. At the very worst case, if your Eruption misses, the best thing that MK can do to punish you from the ledge is ledgehop Fair or Uair. It's worth a shot since most of Ike's edgeguarding techniques against most of the cast do not work that well against MK, unless you're M2K and you fly under the stage all the way to the other side.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Get wrecked Dark.

he is a better troll than i

 

[san.]

I use eruption a lot on MK too, but I'm not sure if it's cause it works well or the MKs wanted immense lulz by getting hit by hit.

If you don't want to get gimped yourself on most characters, simply fullhop fair is pretty safe, so you're not in the dangerous zone diagonally downward near the edge lol.

@Dark
lol

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i think eruption can be a very scary and useful edge guarding tool. You get some SA frames in it as well. Dont take my word for it look at the hit bubble frames

http://i37.tinypic.com/258xv74.gif
http://i37.tinypic.com/10sd3x2.gif

It has good vertical height, i cant tell the true height in the uncharged gif due to cropping. I think learning how to apply eruption against the cast is probably the real challenge to using it properly. Plus thinking about, well how is my opponent recovering? Because i doubt in some situations you'd want to use it while your opponent is recovering low. Dtilt, ftilt, fair, bairing them against the stage, counter, grab, uair, nair, jab, possibly fsmash, usmash, dsmash; these might be better options depending on the situation though.

Although...if they're recovering platform level or pretty high..i could see eruption being very useful for that. As long as they dont have some kind of attack that punishes you out of charging/starting the animation frames for eruption



Believe it or not, i sort of use Jet Hammer in a similar fashion. Only i can move DDD around and i can also hit the opponent from behind DDD with the uncharged JH out of a FH/SH. Usually when i do use JH i jump through a platform then use it. Or i use the platform as a means of cover while im in the JH animation
VVV hit bubble for uncharged
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7608/bdown2.jpg

 

[san.]

Double jump retreating eruption is a legit edgeguard vs a lot of characters recovering high lol. Or just jump+ eruption

 

[Dark 3nergy]

is there any aerial/ move that can punish him out of it?

that'd honestly be the only real thing i would consider before i commit to it

 

[da K.I.D.]

anything that doesnt hit during super armor.

initiating eruption is a move that is basically a challenge to the opponent to see who has better reading/prediction skills. if ike loses he could take anywhere from 6% to a stock based on the punish by the opponent. but if ike wins he gets to kill the opponent at 70-100% based on character and time charged.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

ahh my personal stalker

right on time

 

[Xyro77]

lol you rar with ike just like how you rar with every other character in the game.

ive never put any practice into rar. i kinda want to see if it works well with samus.....and it doesnt

 

[Dark 3nergy]

sammys bair is just all kinds of hard to land to begin with :{

also wtc firefox for ****ing up my website layout >:O the text is all hella small now and so are the pictures >

 

[Albert.]

Is there any chance that the angled Ftilt upwards has different frame data then the regular Ftilt?

I mean, Luigi's Fsmash is faster if you angle it up.

 

[-RedX-]

Double jump retreating eruption is a legit edgeguard vs a lot of characters recovering high lol. Or just jump+ eruption

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_HwjOHF--M#movie_player
Ryko does a few B-reversed ledge jump Eruptions, how useful do you think it can be?

Also, not sure if you guys know about this but you can endlessly run on the edge of a stage/platform and you can dash attack out of it, it looks like it could help in edge-guarding with it from what you guys were talking about earlier.

 

[san.]

Doesn't seem too useful to me. This only works out of jumping from the ledge. Right when they see you jump from the ledge, obviously they think you're going to go in and attack them-- exactly what that b-reverse eruption is doing. Just seems risky to me, especially since after it ends, you're offstage, so you can't even charge it.

Running on the edge of the stage is just a big "HIT ME" sign, and it makes you 10000x more predictable, plus you can't do many things out of it of any worth. Might as well just turn around, buffer a dash towards the edge and dash attack that way anyways lol.


First, I throw long aerials out in hopes for them to use that double jump, once they jump I'm like "very nice" =)

For retreating Eruption, I full hop towards someone a medium distance away. If I see that they're still coming towards me, I jump back and start to hold eruption (I am still over the stage). The timing to hit them if they air dodge or attack is pretty similar IMO.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Running on the edge of the stage is just a big "HIT ME" sign, and it makes you 10000x more predictable, plus you can't do many things out of it of any worth. Might as well just turn around, buffer a dash towards the edge and dash attack that way anyways lol.

i disagree, you can still dash attack, shield, jump away, and at any point run off the stage for a fair or dair or what have you