ACL brawl ruleset disscussion

[Leisha]

Well, thats another option i had in mind.

7 stages could work, that way everyone can be happy i guess. But for a 7th stage, it'd probably a choice between halberd or delfino.

 

[Attila_]

7 stage list with no counters?

or add delphino/frigate/picto? no cs bs please.

so if the mu ratio is variable with stages... then how does one work out the actual ratio?

stop for a second and think about it. where does this number come from?

its assumed that snake falco is 55:45 over the course of a set, with a presumed starting list (american). if you change the list, you logically change this ratio.

so which ratio is more correct? i suppose that's a matter of opinion.

you really can't say your list is more fair than mine, cause that opinion isn't justified. who's to say that my list isn't more 'true to the game'?

in fact, given that i try to even out ratios within reason, you could argue that i'm in the right, and you guys are the ones altering the game.

im still waiting for scoot's reply to this. i daresay he doesn't have one.

 

[Leisha]

Well I meant 7 starters, and other 3 leftover stages would become counter-picks.

 

[Attila_]

but cs is banned. and it should stay that way.

that leaves two other stage.

or maybe just have the seven in total.

 

[Timic83]

cs is amazing gtfo

7th stage would totally be cs, ps2, maybe delfino? not halberd that **** shouldnt be neutral anywhere

 

[Dekar289]

castle siege... it's just a joke alongside new pork city and warioware

 

[swordsaint]

7 stage list with no counters?

or add delphino/frigate/picto? no cs bs please.



im still waiting for scoot's reply to this. i daresay he doesn't have one.

I had a friend over, then i also went to sleep.

I also said that I wasn't going to say anymore.

However you were right with that. Ratios are also influenced by starters, so yes I can see why my reasoning was flawed there. I still disagree with FD, but not as much as before. Now it's more of a personal choice rather than me thinking it was the right way.

 

[Splice]

if FD is in the starters but we dont have 7 starters

I would cry.
Also im interested to see if CS is banned simply on the grounds that Attila doesn't want it.

As well as being a stage where D3 can walkoff kill, its also one of the hardest stages for D3 to get a grab except for trans 3 (without walkoff)

But whatever. I dont care bout CPs. I just want neutralish starters for the love of god.

 

[dean.]

Can't decide between Halberd and Castle Siege for a 7-stage list? Welp time for 9 starters
I actually do think CS is reasonably fair, minus for Dedede half the time vs. half the cast. But that's like one matchup, right. It varies between a range of transformations so that all characters should do well on some and poorly on others. But I also think Halberd is good... hm...

 

[Attila_]

Just btw, cs has been banned for ages. It's stupid. And d3 on cs is like mk on skyworld.

Im actually keen for the 7 starter list. Espc since everyone is scared of Fd for some reason.

Defs halberd, though, with delphino and maybe frigate as counter (no cs).

Also, since scoot agreed with my argument, you Fd haters have all quieted down. Probs because you got nothing.

 

[Leisha]

I dont hate FD at all, I just find some matchups on there terrible for me. 7 stages sounds like the best option atm.

Also i wouldnt worry about castle seige being a hassle against D3, just dont be an idiot and get grabbed xD. I mean the area is huge, you have plenty of space to avoid him.

 

[C~Dog]

Pretty sure Castle Siege was unbanned because D3 has enough bad matchups with good characters [Olimar, Pika, ICs, Falco, MK), that it outweighed the walk off CG he has on the other characters.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just btw, cs has been banned for ages. It's stupid. And d3 on cs is like mk on skyworld.

(this tournament)
Legal Stage List

Starters
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise

Counter-picks
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd

TPoO

Starter
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination

Counter
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Pictochat
Brinstar

How are you guys complaining that CS is broken for D3 and then keep Delfino legal?
A quick look on the D3 boards will tell you that CS isn't one of their best stages at all....

 

[swordsaint]

Just btw, cs has been banned for ages. It's stupid. And d3 on cs is like mk on skyworld.

Im actually keen for the 7 starter list. Espc since everyone is scared of Fd for some reason.

Defs halberd, though, with delphino and maybe frigate as counter (no cs).

Also, since scoot agreed with my argument, you Fd haters have all quieted down. Probs because you got nothing.

CS isn't stupid.

Attila, you've convinced me that FD is 'ok' (still not advocating it, but I'm not condemning it anymore) but CS there is no way in hell. If CS is banned in Victoria something is hella wrong.

Not many people complain about Dedede's walkoffs, has has one part of CS where he can do it, and he can do it on Delphino too, why don't we just ban delfino? Walk off chain grab bans haven't been around in a lot of places in forever.

Assuming FD is starter, the list should look like this imo:

Starter :
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Counterpick :
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege

Counter/banned :
Brinstar
Pictochat

obviously counter/banned being up to TO discretion. that's a list I'd personally recommend if so many people were against a LC starter. Otherwise switch out FD for LC. I think Brinstar is generally unwanted (especially by me ) and Pictochat is just much too random to be considered 100% competitive. Many a stupid things can happen there.

There is NOTHING wrong with Frigate or Castle Siege. In fact I think Castle siege is incredibly balanced in most areas. A personal distaste of the stage doesn't justify excluding it. Frigate, while it's flips CAN hurt you bad, being hurt by the flip is your own fault. It does tell you when it's about to happen so you should be ready for it. The lack of an edge on one side is exactly what makes it counterpick material, it's meant to disadvantage some characters more than others. It can also be avoided by just sticking to the left side.

 

[Leisha]

I think people are just trying to find things to complain about now lol.

Well anyway, how do people feel about 7 starters then?

Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise
Final Destination
Halberd

Counter Blegh

Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Siege


Then yeah, just follow the 1-2-2-1 countering method. Now everyone can be happy!

Sort of.

But yeah, still thinking about it. so i donno, but this is a suggestion.

 

[swordsaint]

Assuming 7 stage list, move LC/FD to starter including CS/Halberd/Delfino. (in order of preference.

 

[Attila_]

Attila, you've convinced me that FD is 'ok'

:D

winner.

also, dephino isnt comparable to cs cause most of the time, there aren't walk offs. but cs has walkoff for over 1/3 of the time (transformation screen included).

delphino has only one transformation with walkoffs both ways, and two others that have a walkoff of both sides. that's three out of about 7 (iirc), ignoring the fact that most of the time you're not even fighting on them, you're in the air.

there isn't a comparison.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Looks like someone is salty because Snake gets killed by Dedede there.

I like Leisha's list.

 

[swordsaint]

There is a comparison Attila, because a comparison is a comparison not exactly the same. See the difference? Regardless, his walk off chain grab on CS can be easily avoided with all the platforms around. It's silly to suggest CS, one of the most balanced stages should be banned based on one or two characters. Why should it really matter that 1 (or 2 characters including Ice Climbers) have a walk off on it? If it's such an issue with Dedede, ban it, that's what your bans are for.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why does walk-off mean anything for ICs? They can 0 > death without one.

 

[swordsaint]

Why does walk-off mean anything for ICs? They can 0 > death without one.

I know that jesus, but it doesn't change the fact that a walk off is both easier, quicker and more reliable (technically).

 

[Zero]

ZSS can walkoff at least 10 characters on CS, including MK and Pikachu. banworthy obviously.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fair enough Scott, just wondering.

 

[Timic83]

aight that stage list looks pretty good

arguing about stages > brawl

 

[Nicks]

leish's 7 stage list looks pretty good. would be interesting to see how it goes.

90% of matchs will probs still end up on smashville! lol

 

[Leisha]

leish's 7 stage list looks pretty good. would be interesting to see how it goes.

90% of matchs will probs still end up on smashville! lol

Yeah pretty much, they always end up there. xD

So the stages don't really matter in the end.

But I'll still give the stagelist a good thinkover for now. Bedtimes for me soon though

 

[dean.]

Ask Jei to try it at the monthly this weekend imo, and if it doesn't **** everything up consider giving it the all clear for ACL.

 

[Attila_]

There is a comparison Attila, because a comparison is a comparison not exactly the same. See the difference? Regardless, his walk off chain grab on CS can be easily avoided with all the platforms around. It's silly to suggest CS, one of the most balanced stages should be banned based on one or two characters. Why should it really matter that 1 (or 2 characters including Ice Climbers) have a walk off on it? If it's such an issue with Dedede, ban it, that's what your bans are for.

i could get grabbed on the first transformation, only to have the stage change, then die. or i could get grabbed on the third, thrown 4-5 times, then have the stage change, and die. its pretty silly, and the amount of time where a grab equals death is very significant.

Why does walk-off mean anything for ICs? They can 0 > death without one.

it means that sopo can also 0-death, potentially.

 

[M]

If sopo grabs you, you bad.

7 starters, with the extra 3 for counterpicks is potentially amazing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

i could get grabbed on the first transformation, only to have the stage change, then die. or i could get grabbed on the third, thrown 4-5 times, then have the stage change, and die. its pretty silly, and the amount of time where a grab equals death is very significant.

The transformations run on a timer though, that only varies by like... 2 seconds at a time depending on the Wii's loading time.

Non random generally makes things like this okay, unless they are unavoidable and over-centralizing.

 

[luke_atyeo]

at least when me and shaya had 6 page arguements, they were funny

 

[dean.]

Delfino doesn't always have walkoffs, but it does have walls on a alot of the transformations, which is similarly bad against Dedede (free damage and a kill move in either utilt or dsmash). It also doesn't always have the platforms to help you from getting grabbed like Castle Siege second transformation does.

Regardless, I've played on both stages a bit and I really don't think it's broken for Dedede... people are aware enough to avoid getting grabbed on the parts that could lead to death for them, and Dedede has few setups into grabs and balls mobility if he wants to force this. I played two games on Delfino against Toshi in last tournament's losers finals, and he didn't get grabbed once without having a banana between me and the wall/walkoff. I played on Castle Siege in teams against Ted and Luke, and neither of them got grabbed once on the second part. On top of this, it's silly to let one non-centric character (or even an overcentralising character like Meta Knight) determine the stage's legality. Can't the lower platforms affect Zero Suit's/Yoshi's grab releases?

And to my knowledge, Castle Siege has been a counterpick basically everywhere minus Japan and Melbourne these past few months, pretty much since the dawn of Brawl. I don't know where the notion came that it was banned.

In response to your earlier post I guess... I suppose Grim isn't incorrect - theoretically if you struck from the complete list of stages (is there an odd number?), ignoring player bias as best as possible, you'd find the stage ideal for the matchup, and be able to determine the matchup from that. If a character doesn't do well in the matchup on at least half the stages, then they probably shouldn't have that advantage in the first place. But yes, this is probably as arbitrary as any other method (still doesn't really explain why FD should be a starter on a 5-stage list...)

The "FD-haters" (what's with the hyperbole?) quitened down because we were basically saying the same things over again - it's not dissimilar for the other side. I stopped posting personally because I don't like drawn out debates, being overly serious for long periods of time and there were other posters of similar opinion to mine picking up the slack

 

[Attila_]

I made the point that boils down to opinion, in which case, lOgically steps should be made to even things out.

Anyway.

Cs was originally banned because shaya agreed with me that d3 was too stupid there. So it was too hard to d3 ban the stage (it was for a while), so we just put a total ban on it.

If the stage is about to transform, and I get grabbed, I die. This included the third transformation, where I have no room to run. That doesn't seem silly to you? Almost half the time, a grab equals death. This is ok against grab characters (mk, Diddy, wario) but what about the rest of the cast?

No one had talked about how stall prone the stage is, either.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Smashville is pretty stall prone as well, you know.

 

[dean.]

Then ban it against Dedede... if it's as unwinnable as you're making it out to be. We haven't banned FD because Ice Climbers are overpowered there under similar conditions (one grab leads to death against 100% of the cast about 50% of the time (the other 50% being when Nana is KOed or knocked away), reduced room to avoid grabs, etc.).

Pokémon Stadium is stall prone yet it's a starter apparently... Lylat is campy, FD is campy...

 

[swordsaint]

This game is campy. Get over it or don't play it.

As Grim said, the transformations differ by at msot abotu 2 seconds depending on your wii's load times. A character isn't broken on the stage if the only reason he's winning there is your own lack of countermeasures.

It's like Dean said about his d3 match against Toshi, he had lots of opportunities that were stopped simply because toshiba had a banana in the way. Snake has nades, and can actually somewhat camp on platforms. He also has mines and c4's to help with making these walkoffs void.

You seem to have problems that are counterpicks toward Snake, it's really stupid Attila. You may not be deliberately doing it, but everytime you hate a stage it's because * beats Snake on it, and just like Dean said again, if it's so impossible ban it, or learn the transformation times.

A matchup is not intended to be the same on every stage, Snake matchup against dedede is different on Siege, different set ups may need to be used. Is this a bad thing? No, in fact in my opinion, it adds depth and therefore banning the stage as a whole is both taking away a CP stage for no good reason (in that it can be prevented) and also reduces the games depth, even if only slightly.

It's sad that after a few years, anyone at all is still advocating anything dedede ban related.

Andrew mentioned that it's also possible for ZSS to do it, and so what? Two characters get a good CP stage just like everyone else, and it's dependent on percent so instead of complaining, learn the percent, learn to avoid it and become better at the game in the process.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mad respect to Dean and Scott <3

 

[Attila_]

don't this about me; it's really not.

in fact, when's the last time a d3 even got me to last stock? it's never been a mu i have problems with.

also, i have been wanting to replace lylat with fd, despite the fact that lylat is snake's best option in almost every mu.

and i've argued to keep frigate and picto; both counterpicks against snake.

seriously, if you think i'm trying to pull things in my favour, you've clearly got it all wrong.

i'm arguing in favour of fairness, that's all.

a d3 could land a grab in the last 5 seconds of the third transformation (where it can be pretty difficult to avoid for most) then kill during the transformation time. so i have to avoid the grab not only during transformations and the second one, but also towards the end of the 1st and 3rd transformations also. this is a pretty huge chunk of time.

ics on fd aren't even almost as bad; their grab range is almost half of d3's, and they slide further back when their shield is hit (can't remember figures). and nana is a necessary requirement, also.

hater's gonna hate.

also, what can zss do? what's this business about percents?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Once King Dedede players start dominating in tournaments with Castle Seige legal, then you might have grounds to call the stage ban-worthy.

And if you were arguing in favour of fairness, you definitely wouldn't want FD in a 5-Stage starter list, or Pictochat legal.

 

[Nova]

ZSS, on MK anyway, can Grab, air release, into another running grab (repeat) which on stages with walkoffs means a stock loss.