ACL brawl ruleset disscussion

[Attila_]

Tibor reckons he'd win everything if Fd was a starter lol.

95% of mk/snake/marth's mus are more even on Fd than other stages.

And while you can ask me not to make this about mk, in reality, it is. Mk is the metagame, whether you like it or not.

Also, Diddy and ics don't get an instant cp as a starter; bf isn't a cp for Diddy, and Sv is actually bad for ics in a bunch of mus. I'd say the same about falco, but you'd ark up again, so I'll refrain.

I'd also like to remind everyone that we are the only smash nation without Fd as a starter. Are we just that much more insightful than the rest of the world?

 

[Nova]

I could be stuck in the past because I don't care about starters and even for tournaments I run I just listen to other people on the rules, but doesn't the Brawl Backroom (if anyone takes them seriously) say FD should be a CP?

Iunno, I thought it was like that. :/
It is indeed the case that nobody takes them seriously if the rest of the world uses FD as a starter when they say it shouldn't be.
Which, as I said, could have been ages ago, because I only check rule stuff when it's linked to me.

 

[swordsaint]

Tibor reckons he'd win everything if Fd was a starter lol.

95% of mk/snake/marth's mus are more even on Fd than other stages.

And while you can ask me not to make this about mk, in reality, it is. Mk is the metagame, whether you like it or not.

Also, Diddy and ics don't get an instant cp as a starter; bf isn't a cp for Diddy, and Sv is actually bad for ics in a bunch of mus. I'd say the same about falco, but you'd ark up again, so I'll refrain.

I'd also like to remind everyone that we are the only smash nation without Fd as a starter. Are we just that much more insightful than the rest of the world?

Your argument is incredibly weak if you can't provide examples. You can't just throw a random figure out with no specific match ups (especially if the figure is made up) and expect people to say you're right. MK doesn't affect matchups that aren't MK. MK can't start controlling things that balance other characters in match ups MK isn't even in.

You said yourself, that you think diddy ***** on YI. So with FD legal, he has FD, SV and YI. However with LC in place, he only has SV and YI! Where the starter stage is a neutral. It seems like you didn't think that one through.

Ice Climbers get a CP in that BF, FD, and to an extent SV are advantageous in most situations. SV can be bad against say MK, but that doesn't stop him from ****** 90% (omg random figure my argument is flawed) of the cast on it. I say they're CP's for Ice Climbers because chain grabs can't be interrupted or hindered in some way on these stages. They're flat, nothing in the way.

 

[Attila_]

I'll give specific examples when I'm not typing on an iPhone. Typing too slow.

Diddy ***** on all starters, and you're never gonna be happy playing the first game. IMO his only bad stage is frigate, anyway.

@nova: not a single American national TO listens to the backroom, apparently.

 

[Dekar289]

fd, like battlefield, doesn't have any moving **** (yoshi's, smashville and uhh ps1/lylat whatever all have moving crap)
this is god's way of telling you to make it a neutral

 

[dean.]

Not necessarily... Temple doesn't have moving stuff either yet there's no way in hell that's even counterpick.

Unless God=Dekar...

 

[Attila_]

Your argument is incredibly weak if you can't provide examples. You can't just throw a random figure out with no specific match ups (especially if the figure is made up) and expect people to say you're right. MK doesn't affect matchups that aren't MK. MK can't start controlling things that balance other characters in match ups MK isn't even in.

ok! i'm at home now, so ill do some examples. although before i do, a quick mention that mk does influence mus that he's not participating in, because he quite easily controls which characters can actually get through the bracket. only characters that have reasonable mk mus will make it through (unless the play is extra amazing).

examples that im very comfortable declaring (although there are obviously personal preferences, these are definite trends):

Snake

vs. MK

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on SV

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on PS1 (preferable for mk)

vs. Diddy Kong

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on BF

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on BF (uneffected)

vs. Marth

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on PS1

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on LC/PS1 (personal preference)

vs. Wario

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on PS1

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on PS1 (uneffected)

vs. Ice climbers

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on SV

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV (uneffected)

vs. Pit

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on BF

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on BF (uneffected)

vs. Dedede

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on PS1/BF

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on PS1/BF (uneffected)


Ice Climbers

vs. MK

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on YI

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV (preferable for mk)

vs. Diddy Kong

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on FD/SV

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV (largely uneffected)

vs. Marth

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on SV

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV (uneffected)

vs. Wario

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on BF/SV

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on BF/SV (uneffected)

vs. Snake

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on SV

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV (uneffected)

vs. Pit

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on FD/BF

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on BF (largely uneffected)

vs. Dedede

FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on BF/SV

BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on BF/SV (uneffected)

Shall I keep going? As demonstrated, the only mu actually affected was the MK mu, where MK gained a slight advantage. Safe to assume this happens in other mus also.

 

[Nova]

I must be the only Snake that likes playing MK on PS1 lol....

 

[swordsaint]

ok! i'm at home now, so ill do some examples. although before i do, a quick mention that mk does influence mus that he's not participating in, because he quite easily controls which characters can actually get through the bracket. only characters that have reasonable mk mus will make it through (unless the play is extra amazing).

this is just utter stupidity. Match ups dont change just because MK exists.

Is snake vs Falco affected simply because MK 'exists'? No. Oh dear god attila did you even think about that?

mk controls his own matchups, not others. He controls what characters people use, not how they do against characters that aren't metaknight.

also your very first thing made me not read the rest of it

Snake vs mk on ps is not beneficial for MK >_>

 

[Dekar289]

forget the matchups for a sec
it's fd

 

[tibs7]

Well you not reading full posts is pretty bad if you want an arguement....

 

[dean.]

Is that really a good thing? Like, with my Dedede under PS/FD/BF/SV/YI vs. a Meta Knight, I'd be able to take first game to FD, SV or PS which I would consider counterpicking against a Meta Knight. Compare this to SV/BF/YI/PS/LC, game 1 will go to Battlefield or Yoshi's Island which doesn't affect the matchup much (as in Dedede gets wrecked ) If I were something like, I dunno Lucario, I'd be able to go to Smashville against Meta Knight (which is probably in the top 5 stages for Lucario vs. MK) under the FD starter list, but something like Pokémon Stadium in the Lylat list (has no strong impact on the matchup). I know we all dislike fighting a Meta Knight but the aim of the starter list isn't specifically to hinder the little guy...

And not all of America uses FD/BF/PS/YI/SV as a starter list - just like Australia it changes depending on regions and TOs. From a brief look-through in the tournament board, I saw FD/BF/SV/YI/PS, BF/SV/YI/PS/LC varients and even 7-stage lists that had both FD and LC. There are some regions that have extremely liberal lists (like that one Canada place with a 9-stage list) or extremely conservative (Japan), and regions that just disregard a stagelist and play Smashville every match (*cough*Europe*cough*). My long-winded point, I think, is that we should be trying to find the list that suits our scene, not somebody elses.

 

[swordsaint]

Well you not reading full posts is pretty bad if you want an arguement....

It'd be pointless anyway. I can't comment on Ice climbers and for a majority i can't comment on snake. I use neither of those characters except snake occasionally which i do have slight knowledge about. I asked him to give examples, I never said i'd address all of them, because as i said, would be ignorant since I don't know anything about half those characters. The characters I do know about though get advantages through adding FD, and while I WOULD like to see FD legal, it's NOT fair.

 

[Attila_]

this is just utter stupidity. Match ups dont change just because MK exists.

Is snake vs Falco affected simply because MK 'exists'? No. Oh dear god attila did you even think about that?

mk controls his own matchups, not others. He controls what characters people use, not how they do against characters that aren't metaknight.

also your very first thing made me not read the rest of it

Snake vs mk on ps is not beneficial for MK >_>

mk chooses who goes through the bracket, hence dictating the importance of mus. for instance, snake vs d3 is a terrible mu, but since mks knock out d3s pretty quickly (most of the time), very few snakes need to worry about learning that mu. mks effects are extremely widespread.

also, from a timeout perspective, ps1 is a very dangerous stage against mk. no approaching on the fire or earth transformations can eat up large chunks of time.

Is that really a good thing? Like, with my Dedede under PS/FD/BF/SV/YI vs. a Meta Knight, I'd be able to take first game to FD, SV or PS which I would consider counterpicking against a Meta Knight. Compare this to SV/BF/YI/PS/LC, game 1 will go to Battlefield or Yoshi's Island which doesn't affect the matchup much (as in Dedede gets wrecked ) If I were something like, I dunno Lucario, I'd be able to go to Smashville against Meta Knight (which is probably in the top 5 stages for Lucario vs. MK) under the FD starter list, but something like Pokémon Stadium in the Lylat list (has no strong impact on the matchup). I know we all dislike fighting a Meta Knight but the aim of the starter list isn't specifically to hinder the little guy...

And not all of America uses FD/BF/PS/YI/SV as a starter list - just like Australia it changes depending on regions and TOs. From a brief look-through in the tournament board, I saw FD/BF/SV/YI/PS, BF/SV/YI/PS/LC varients and even 7-stage lists that had both FD and LC. There are some regions that have extremely liberal lists (like that one Canada place with a 9-stage list) or extremely conservative (Japan), and regions that just disregard a stagelist and play Smashville every match (*cough*Europe*cough*). My long-winded point, I think, is that we should be trying to find the list that suits our scene, not somebody elses.

would you go as far to say that d3 beats mk on any of those stages? or would you say that lucario beats mk on sv? of course not. so i dont see how we're really hindering him. hell, its just like the lgl specific to mk (note, mk isnt unbeatable with infinite ledge grabs; ally's beaten m2k in tournies with no lgl).

and i havent heard of a large tourney in america not having fd as a starter... or a canadian, european, or japanese one for that matter. it pretty much is only us, and only because shaya convinced us that it was the standard years ago. and if you want to find a list that suits our scene, then why not try fd as a starter? aside from tpoo (which had a very small turnout) we havent had it included in forever. if memory serves, its been at least a year and half; the metagame has changed heaps since then.

 

[swordsaint]

mk chooses who goes through the bracket, hence dictating the importance of mus. for instance, snake vs d3 is a terrible mu, but since mks knock out d3s pretty quickly (most of the time), very few snakes need to worry about learning that mu. mks effects are extremely widespread.

Which affects the ratios of other match ups how? (which is what I've been saying the whole god damn time)

The snake v dedede matchup isn't suddenly winnable because MK beats dedede hard.

no match up is more important than another in a starter list. its not just for the top tiers. its made for ganon vs falcon as well.

Each matchup is attempted to be considered seperate, and unrelated when forming the stage list. 1 match up doesn't influence another matchup ever. It may reduce the FREQUENCY of the matchup occurring, but not it's outcome, which is all that matters.

for heavens snake why is your snake approaching?

 

[Nova]

Snake vs mk on ps is not beneficial for MK >_>

I read somewhere, in addition to Attila's list, (I can't remember) that Snake shouldn't be taking a MK to PS1.
Which is so lol for me because my preference for counter picks almost always has PS1 in it, even against MK. *shrugs*

I don't care about all this stuff either, now.
So.... yeah, it's fd.

 

[swordsaint]

idk just sounds wrong to me, good thing i already said i didnt know too much abotu snake.

ps1 has a slightly lower ceiling and mk can't glide under the stage

 

[Attila_]

not approaching, but not being able to hit mk on the other side of the tree/rock, or on top of the windmill. only physical attacks would be able to hit, so id have to approach, which is stupid.

i dont see why we shouldnt take the more common mus into account when forming a stage list. i also dont see why we shouldnt try to balance out the game. taking away cps mk has that are starters is not disadvantaging him, its making it a little easier for everyone else. its making it more even. isnt that also the main argument for making fd a counter?

funny how it works like that. but in reality, for the most part, mk is the only one who gains anything by having fd as a counter. i did a few of my characters earlier, showing most other mus are uneffected, and i encourage other character mainers to do the same.

 

[dean.]

would you go as far to say that d3 beats mk on any of those stages? or would you say that lucario beats mk on sv? of course not. so i dont see how we're really hindering him. hell, its just like the lgl specific to mk (note, mk isnt unbeatable with infinite ledge grabs; ally's beaten m2k in tournies with no lgl).

and i havent heard of a large tourney in america not having fd as a starter... or a canadian, european, or japanese one for that matter. it pretty much is only us, and only because shaya convinced us that it was the standard years ago. and if you want to find a list that suits our scene, then why not try fd as a starter? aside from tpoo (which had a very small turnout) we havent had it included in forever. if memory serves, its been at least a year and half; the metagame has changed heaps since then.

Changing the Dedede:MK matchup from like 70:30 on Battlefield to 60:40 on FD is still artificially making the character worse, even if he still wins the matchup. I mean hell, we could make a rule that says Ganondorf gets to play every match on Norfair - he'd do a lot better in most matchups but he still wouldn't win many - but that's not the point of a starter stage.

And if I recall correctly, since I've joined the scene the majors that have has FD as starter are The Tempest, SQUAT, TPoO and Rocky, compared to Thriller and Robocop. The old BBR recommended ruleset DID have Lylat as starter ahead of FD and the current BBR-RC doesn't list a preferance for starter stages. "Large tourney..." DGB had 50 entrants or something and had FD as starter, you just need to come to more tournaments Attila

Actually I don't know why I'm still still posting... I have no strong preference either way and my arguments are getting worse... Dean out.

 

[swordsaint]

not approaching, but not being able to hit mk on the other side of the tree/rock, or on top of the windmill. only physical attacks would be able to hit, so id have to approach, which is stupid.

i dont see why we shouldnt take the more common mus into account when forming a stage list. i also dont see why we shouldnt try to balance out the game. taking away cps mk has that are starters is not disadvantaging him, its making it a little easier for everyone else. its making it more even. isnt that also the main argument for making fd a counter?

funny how it works like that. but in reality, for the most part, mk is the only one who gains anything by having fd as a counter. i did a few of my characters earlier, showing most other mus are uneffected, and i encourage other character mainers to do the same.

I'll explain it in numbers.

The stage list isn't attempting to make match ups closer to 50/50. It's trying to obtain a stage that neither benefits or hinders either character in that matchup.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The reason we shouldn't try and balance the game is that it's impossible to do without changing our rule-set into a rule-book, due to the double standards we'd have to avoid.

Basically what the two posters above me said.

 

[Nicks]

Changing the Dedede:MK matchup from like 70:30 on Battlefield to 60:40 on FD is still artificially making the character worse, even if he still wins the matchup. I mean hell, we could make a rule that says Ganondorf gets to play every match on Norfair - he'd do a lot better in most matchups but he still wouldn't win many - but that's not the point of a starter stage.

And if I recall correctly, since I've joined the scene the majors that have has FD as starter are The Tempest, SQUAT, TPoO and Rocky, compared to Thriller and Robocop. The old BBR recommended ruleset DID have Lylat as starter ahead of FD and the current BBR-RC doesn't list a preferance for starter stages. "Large tourney..." DGB had 50 entrants or something and had FD as starter, you just need to come to more tournaments Attila

Actually I don't know why I'm still still posting... I have no strong preference either way and my arguments are getting worse... Dean out.

haha get owned a'

dean your posts are so wise, imo watever dean thinks is probs what we shud be doing.

 

[Splice]

So i see this discussion as at the point where people are recycling and rephrasing the same argument. Not much new points have been made but some statistics have been listed.

Perhaps it's time to leave the provided information as is for Leisha to decide (seeing as rephrasing and listing further examples doesnt go very far and is unneccessary, although the statistics were nice)

Well it might just be me; apologies, but i dont think we've gotten far in the last 2 pages.

What's everyones opinion on Ledge Grab Limit?
Also ... what else is there to discuss?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Meta Knight is broken without a Ledge-Grab Limit.

No one else needs one.

If MK gets one, it should be 20-30.

 

[Shaya]

Depends what you could argue broken at this point.

Some characters have extremely small windows that to 'stop' their planking.
Donkey Kong is 6, Marth can regrab the ledge with only 3 frames of vulnerability (but he doesn't have a hitbox out), G&W is like 6 frames too.

bleh bleh bleh.
But MK's the only one that is pretty reasonably proven to be technically and theoretically broken across all match ups.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Lots of characters can stop it (Meta Knight's) too, the point is that stopping it puts them in a terrible position: Off-stage against Meta Knight.

 

[Leisha]

Alright, soo there seems to be ****loads of input in here lol.

I probably check it out on tuesday night after ricky goes home. It's my birthday in 2 minutes lul.

so yes, time to have fun =D

 

[Timic83]

just remember this

fd is the only neutral/cp without platforms
so how is it the most balanced when it lacks something every other stage has (disregarding eldin) :O

 

[Dekar289]

nobody said it's the most balanced stage in the game
but it's such a good stage for competitive play...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

>Brawl players hate camping, defensive play and chain-grabs.
>Final Destination promotes camping, defensive play and chain-grabs.
>Brawl players like Final Destination.

wut.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I LOOOOOOOOOOVE beating dead horses

 

[tibs7]

dean please dont use the bbr as a reference!!!!
i dont think anyone listened to their stagelists except for like raziek who has cs as a starter and hanenbow as a cp or some shiz.

they are the worst - see bbr matchup chart.

we just follow suit to the american way and have it as a starter thats all there is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't listen to the BBR or the Americans, listen to what actually makes sense.

 

[CAOTIC]

proof the bbr is balls: i used to be in it and i dont even know how this game works. reputation can get you so far, even if you don't deserve it

 

[Shaya]

Tibs rages at the bbr match up chart, yet pretty much every one of diddy's match ups were originally set by their panel and they had hardly any disagreements with other panels at any stage.

Higher level AMERICAN diddy players having a different opinion to the guy who thinks FD should definitely be a starter stage?

And the BBR has tournament organisers. CAO's being an idiot.

 

[CAOTIC]

way to go, captain obvious! :9

 

[Attila_]

haha get owned a'

dean your posts are so wise, imo watever dean thinks is probs what we shud be doing.

i dont like it when people hang off other people's arguments, make snide comments, then run for cover. fight your own battles.

So i see this discussion as at the point where people are recycling and rephrasing the same argument. Not much new points have been made but some statistics have been listed.

Perhaps it's time to leave the provided information as is for Leisha to decide (seeing as rephrasing and listing further examples doesnt go very far and is unneccessary, although the statistics were nice)

Well it might just be me; apologies, but i dont think we've gotten far in the last 2 pages.

What's everyones opinion on Ledge Grab Limit?
Also ... what else is there to discuss?

i dont care too much for the number... nor have i ever counted my ledge grabs. 35?

nobody said it's the most balanced stage in the game
but it's such a good stage for competitive play...

people prefer slants and flying under the stage, unfortunately.

And if I recall correctly, since I've joined the scene the majors that have has FD as starter are The Tempest, SQUAT, TPoO and Rocky, compared to Thriller and Robocop. The old BBR recommended ruleset DID have Lylat as starter ahead of FD and the current BBR-RC doesn't list a preferance for starter stages. "Large tourney..." DGB had 50 entrants or something and had FD as starter, you just need to come to more tournaments Attila

Most of those majors were years ago; DBB and TPOO were the only ones recently to play with the idea of FD being starter. consider that a full year and a half before this had fd off the list; i think the metagame needs to be analyzed again.

also, the BBR would have us playing on port town. they also think that snake is a difficult mu for gw. they're freakin ********.

i dont see why we shouldnt take the more common mus into account when forming a stage list. i also dont see why we shouldnt try to balance out the game. taking away cps mk has that are starters is not disadvantaging him, its making it a little easier for everyone else. its making it more even. isnt that also the main argument for making fd a counter?

funny how it works like that. but in reality, for the most part, mk is the only one who gains anything by having fd as a counter. i did a few of my characters earlier, showing most other mus are uneffected, and i encourage other character mainers to do the same.

funny.

this point is yet to be addressed, and is completely valid.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

i dont see why we shouldnt take the more common mus into account when forming a stage list.

Your right, more common match-ups are more important than less common ones.

i also dont see why we shouldnt try to balance out the game.

Because it is impossible to do without introducing gazillions of double standards.

For example, I'd like to know why my Jigglypuff can't get a 20% handicap in every match-up to help balance the game.

taking away cps mk has that are starters is not disadvantaging him

Yes, it is.

its making it a little easier for everyone else. its making it more even. isnt that also the main argument for making fd a counter?

No, the argument for making FD a counter is that it makes match-ups closer to the average of the match-up on every legal stage, NOT closer to 50:50.

funny how it works like that. but in reality, for the most part, mk is the only one who gains anything by having fd as a counter. i did a few of my characters earlier, showing most other mus are uneffected, and i encourage other character mainers to do the same.

Mr. Game & Watch and Wario are affected by it. Basically any aerial based character is.

 

[Attila_]

Mr. Game & Watch and Wario are affected by it. Basically any aerial based character is.

go through the matchups, and strike procedure. you'll almost always end on up on the same or a more even stage. i went through my characters, go through yours.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sure, I did Jigglypuff's the other day cause Nova asked me to:

vs. MK
FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on BF/SV
BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on LC/BF/SV

vs. Snake
FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on PS1/YI
BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on Smashville

vs. Diddy Kong
FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on PS1/SV
BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV

vs. Falco
FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on PS1/SV
BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV

vs. Marth
FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on SV
BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV

vs. Wario
FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on BF/SV
BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on LC/BF/SV

vs. Ice Climbers
FD, BF, SV, YI, PS1 - played on PS1/SV
BF, SV, YI, PS1, LC - played on SV

In every match-up excluding Marth, FD being legal makes it worse for Jigglypuff.