ACL brawl ruleset disscussion

[Attila_]

how are they all worse if they're mostly the same stage?

also, the snake one doesnt make sense. all the three stages are in both lists... why does it boil down to completely different options.

 

[Dekar289]

grim tuesday arguing against
zxv and the baranyays arguing for
fd neutral it is...

 

[swordsaint]

funny.

this point is yet to be addressed, and is completely valid.

I was pretty sure I did.
It's like Grim said. The starter is meant to make the matchup closer to the average rather than 50/50.

If a matchup is 60/40, the stage wants to keep it that way. Some stages may make the matchup 50/50. That isn't the point, the stage wants it at 60/40. Not 70/30, not 50/50, 60/40.

It's not meant to be a counter, it's not meant to be an advantage or anything of the sort.

More common matchups are more important when it comes to learning matchups. It should not be considered when forming a stagelist.

The starter list isn't made to balance the game, just be as close as possible to what a matchups average is. I reiterate this point a lot. The reason is simple. Not giving MK the same as other characters is still nerfing him. You're nerfing him by empowering others. It's indirect, but nonetheless still there.

MK is legal, the only things that he should treat him differently are things that make him unbeatable. Which is why the LgL only targets him in many cases.

I don't think it's really necessary to go through Falco, because with FD legal, in 100% of my matchups, I get BF, FD, or SV all of which I CP. That's 35+ matchups just for a single character.

Attila, the options change because you're going to strike different depending on the stages legal obv. Just because the most balanced stage exists in both lists does not mean it will be chosen in both.

An FD starter admittedly does have more balanced starter stages than LC. HOWEVER, due to striking, you're not forced on to the most balanced stage. LC, more often than FD forces people in to a neutral stage, because a camper like falco will (with the exception of maybe wario) strike LC and YI, and go it'll go to stadium if you'er looking for the actual balanced map UNLESS you're a PLAYER that's actually comfortable on SV or BF. (usually BF)

but yeah seriously

probably my last post I'll make arguing for it. simply because with FD legal I'd be able to be more gay than i am now (assuming I do go to more later, and it'll probably happen eventually. )

 

[Grim Tuesday]

how are they all worse if they're mostly the same stage?

Because the non-Puff player gets to choose between two different stages when, if FD wasn't legal, they'd only have one choice.

Player bias when it comes to stages means a lot more against low tiers than against high tiers. Whether the opponent picks PS1 or Smashville as Diddy could mean the difference between a win and a loss depending on how used to a certain stage they are.

also, the snake one doesnt make sense. all the three stages are in both lists... why does it boil down to completely different options.

For the FD list:
Jigglypuff strikes Final Destination.
Snake strikes Smashville and Battlefield.
Jigglypuff strikes either Pokemon Stadium 1 or Yoshi's Island (both make the match much harder for Puff).

For the LC list:
Jigglypuff strikes PS1/YI.
Snake strikes Lylat Cruise and Battlefield.
Jigglypuff strikes PS1/YI (so it goes to Smashville, which is a much more even stage for the match-up).

 

[Attila_]

i'd strike yi and sv either way, just btw. i dont understand why the snake would strike different stages at all...

also, as ics, id strike ps1 and sv either list.

if the starter list isnt supposed to make mus more even, then what the hell is is suppose to do? make mus 'as they are supposed to be', or make them played out 'most naturally'? what the hell does that mean?

 

[swordsaint]

i'd strike yi and sv either way, just btw. i dont understand why the snake would strike different stages at all...

also, as ics, id strike ps1 and sv either list.

if the starter list isnt supposed to make mus more even, then what the hell is is suppose to do? make mus 'as they are supposed to be', or make them played out 'most naturally'? what the hell does that mean?

I just said that.

If Falco/Snake is 55-45 Snake. FD might make the matchup 60/40 Snake. (due to lack of recovery options and the ease of edgeguarding for snake on this stage)

the starter is meant to be 55-45. Not 50/50.

ice climbers and ganon should be 100/0. not 99/1.


so on and so forth.

 

[Dekar289]

are you ********? these matchup ratios are only what they are because of the stage list!

 

[Splice]

lol Dekar so silly <3

And Attila, in regards to grims strikes against Snake, the Snake would strike different stages perhaps because the stage being added (Lylat) is bad for Snake so he would rather strike it then one of the stages he'd choose if Lylat wasnt there? Isn't that common sense lolwut? That said, idk why Snake would strike Lylat.

"I dont see why we shouldnt try and balance out the game" - Attila (cbf wrapping quotes)
We should make a stage list that doesnt favour MK to bring his MUs closer to even?
Should we also not make theis list favour Ganon? Norfair as neutral yes please

This so silly
These discussions never go anywhere and people cling to the same opinions
And always use the same non-plausable legal/starter stage criteria
And most of the time have Dekar being ********

it's all TO's discretion anyway
But there really isnt anything else to discuss lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, there isn't anything else to say on the matter. Everyone has laid down their arguments, now it's time for the TO to decide.

 

[Dekar289]

there's plenty to discuss, why do you think leisha made the thread? so we can discuss why people who don't think fd should be neutral are idiots and leisha can then read up and say "mm yes obvs fd should be neutral" and thus the ruleset won't suck ballz

@grim: the people arguing against fd being neutral think that matchup ratios exist regardless of stagelist (WTF?)

 

[swordsaint]

Dekar, the point is that the stage should neither benefit nor disadvantage characters. the matchup should be left unchanged.

also grim and splice are right. we're jsut repeating **** now so im stepping out.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There is a very easy way to determine what the match-up ratio is regardless of stage list.

Strike from every stage in the game in a 1-1-1 fashion, whatever the MU ratio is on the last remaining stage is what we should be trying to get to with a starter list.

 

[Attila_]

I just said that.

If Falco/Snake is 55-45 Snake. FD might make the matchup 60/40 Snake. (due to lack of recovery options and the ease of edgeguarding for snake on this stage)

the starter is meant to be 55-45. Not 50/50.

ice climbers and ganon should be 100/0. not 99/1.


so on and so forth.

so if the mu ratio is variable with stages... then how does one work out the actual ratio?

stop for a second and think about it. where does this number come from?

its assumed that snake falco is 55:45 over the course of a set, with a presumed starting list (american). if you change the list, you logically change this ratio.

so which ratio is more correct? i suppose that's a matter of opinion.

you really can't say your list is more fair than mine, cause that opinion isn't justified. who's to say that my list isn't more 'true to the game'?

in fact, given that i try to even out ratios within reason, you could argue that i'm in the right, and you guys are the ones altering the game.

And Attila, in regards to grims strikes against Snake, the Snake would strike different stages perhaps because the stage being added (Lylat) is bad for Snake so he would rather strike it then one of the stages he'd choose if Lylat wasnt there? Isn't that common sense lolwut? That said, idk why Snake would strike Lylat.

lylat bad for snake? that's a good one. even mk isn't that bad there, and he's **** on that stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I explained how to work out the actual, bias-less ratio in my last post.

Lylat is bad for Snake against Jigglypuff in comparison to the other 4 starters.

 

[Dekar289]

Dekar, the point is that the stage should neither benefit nor disadvantage characters. the matchup should be left unchanged.

unchanged from what??? you must be trolling

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Unchanged from this:

There is a very easy way to determine what the match-up ratio is regardless of stage list.

Strike from every stage in the game in a 1-1-1 fashion, whatever the MU ratio is on the last remaining stage is what we should be trying to get to with a starter list.

 

[Ghostbone]

The starter list is basically intended to be a condensed version of the entire legal stagelist.

So, in the MK-IC match-up, if you strike from all the legal stages and get say, PS1, that should be the stage reached through stage striking from the starters as well, as stage striking from the starters is intended to be an efficient method of reaching the median of bias. (the stage reached through striking through every legal stage)

So basically the starter list should be made from the 5 (or how ever many starters you have) stages that are most commonly reached through striking from the whole stagelist.

If that makes sense >.>

 

[Splice]

So basically the starter list should be made from the 5 (or how ever many starters you have) stages that are most commonly reached through striking from the whole stagelist.

Whilst i dont particularly fault the logic, this process is a little difficult especially when striking stages is heavily player dependant.

But yes if you did this and averaged across all MUs which 5 stages got caught in the mix the most often, you would have something nice I guess.

But yet... if you did this I dont think any combo of BF SV PS1 YI FD LC would make it in
idk tho lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Grim Tuesday]

PS2 would make it, if player bias wasn't accounted for

 

[dean.]

eyy simple solution, 7-stage list with both Lylat and FD, with like Halberd or Castle Siege or some **** as the 7th stage
problem solved weew

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sounds good to me.

FD/LC/CS/BF/SV/YI/PS1

 

[Ghostbone]

Uhh Grim
Replace Halberd with PS1 lolz

Edit: Yay

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Herp a derp, that was dumb.

Fixed.

 

[Splice]

Nah man i reckon Halberd is more suitable in seven stage list than Castle Siege

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I dunno Seige is more balanced, but Halberd is less janky.

Eh, it'll be one of those two at least.

 

[Ghostbone]

imo Castle Siege is way more fair.

The walk-off bit is only really a problem in certain match-ups, and it's not as bad as the part in Halberd where MK and other characters can shark.
Plus there's that glitch on Halberd where you can get under the stage..

 

[Nicks]

i dont like it when people hang off other people's arguments, make snide comments, then run for cover. fight your own battles.

haha wat?
firstly i wouldnt really call it a BATTLE, i was merely agreeing with dean.
secondly i am only 'hanging off his argument' because it would be pointless for me to restate wat he said since he said perfectly wat i would have said.

there... battle fought lol


also imo if we did have a seven stage starter list, i think castle siege is more neutral than halberd.

halberd is really good for some characters (eg snake, mk) and thus would give them an advantage for the first 'neutral' game.
whereas siege isnt really good for one character over another (except maybe D3)

 

[Splice]

MKs ability to shark is part of MK being good

Also getting under stage only good for stalling (and should count as such)

I believe CS doesnt contribute to any large amounts of character-types, (its just a spacious stage) and therefore it doesnt really impact starters except no-one wants to play it as first match due to its rhythm change.
Since the neutral depends on rhythm too much I dont believe it should be used as a starter.
Now i know you can strike it
But i mean the vast majority of the time both players will intend to strike it

Because with first match most important of set, a stage like this shouldnt have any cha... blah blah blah

And here we go again

(unless we get landslide vote in CS favour)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Rhythm change? o_O

It's not like the transformations are random, it's pretty easy to prepare for the next one with no or little change in rhythm.

And Halberd has different stages too!

 

[Ghostbone]

Halberd intrudes on the match much more with the lasers and claw imo.

 

[Splice]

Actually Grim with different platform setup, gotta change your approach on the level completely and methods alter and you gotta adapt fast. It can also give someone in a pressured position oppurtunity to escape, or even turn tables completely.

Knowledge of stage can be abused- this is good -but i dont believe just because something isnt random that people will be absolutely prepared for it and not get stuffed over by it in spacing or whatever.

THAT SAID
I was merely hinting at a possibility of continuing our discussion with a dumb and repetitive exciting debate over two stages and which should be in starters.

I personally prefer Castle Siege in starters because its like PS1 in that it is a stage that offers space and with Halberd instead there arent many big stages in starters which i believe some players simply prefer regardless of character. And also I dont care coz i <3 Siegey so i dont need to strike it coz so good for my char if im in practice on it.

 

[tibs7]

Mannnnnn this thread..
Grims waaaaay to open to this whole stage thing. If we asked him to design a stagelist it would include new pork city, skyworld etc. So no offense but your stage input is just ignored by almost everyone <3

having fd as a starter will barely change a thing. so what if it benefits a few more chars than others so do other stagelists gawwddd.
This is defs not the most balanced starter list like you guys are making it out to be otherwise the world would be using it right?

Reading half this crap is soooo gaaaay.
Freakin Shaya did this.
He started it allllllllllllllllllllll!!!!
Everything was fine before he made the bbr *sigh*. What power does these days.

 

[luke_atyeo]

no, this all started with mic.....
the true mastermind of evil

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you asked me to design a stage list for this tournament, it wouldn't be a very liberal one. I realize what would and wouldn't be accepted here.

And whether you listen to my input is irrelevant, because about 3 people have been saying the same thing as me anyway.

It is a more balanced starter list, just because the majority doesn't use it, doesn't mean it isn't right.

 

[Attila_]

Out of interest... How did cs move from banned to starter?

I actually don't mind the look of a seven list, but halberd over cs. Maybe even delphino...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

CS used to be banned? o_O

 

[Attila_]

One grab from dedede kill most of the cast literally half the time.

And walkoffs are ********.

The second transformation is a timeout fest.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's why I said it's jankier than Halberd.

But because the second transformation can be timed-out, it pretty much nullifies Dedede's chain-grab (except on the intermission bits, I guess).

Leisha just has to decide between more fair and less gay.

 

[luke_atyeo]

If you asked me to design a stage list for this tournament

we havnt, and we wont.
ever.
you've already proven it would be a task far beyond your ability.
congradulations

 

[Nova]

Reading half this crap is soooo gaaaay.

Like.
Agree.
Thumbs up, etc.

Ugh, poor Leish.
As a TO, you just need to think "now if I allow a flat stage over Lylat, will it really effect numbers at the tournament?"
The answer is of course no, lol.

Just remember, Final Destination was a starter at PoO, and absolutely nobody had a problem with it.
This game already has tripping in it so why people quote dumb stats like "oh my god allowing FD will make ONE of my m/u's awful! even though I can and will strike stages but hypothetical hypothetical hypothetical" is beyond me.

Edit: And I believe that there is roughly even support for FD/Lylat here, people are just thinking about this way too much.