ACL brawl ruleset disscussion

[Leisha]

Hi everyone.

I'll be running brawl for the ACL tournament and I've come up with a ruleset which seems pretty fair and balanced. It's pretty much the Thriller ruleset with some minor adjustments. If you want to leave your thoughts about the ruleset, just post here and we'll discuss everyones opinions. Most of this ruleset is confirmed though unless we have a majority wanting change. I would say its pretty good though xD

As for for the bracket, it'll be a 24 man bracket most likely.

Spoiler

General Rules:

Playing non-tournament matches without a Tournament Organizer's consent may result in disqualification. Players may forfeit games and/or sets if their match has been called by a TO and is not started within reasonable time. Please inform a TO of any situations that may hinder you from playing.

Brawl Thriller Ruleset:

Match Settings: 3 Stock | 8 Minute Timer | Items set to "off" and "none"
Matches are played as best of three sets. Championship and Finals (Winners, Losers Semi, Losers) sets are best of five. (Winners semis and Loosers semis will be played as best of 5 sets if we have enough time.) This includes Pool Matches, matches ending with suicide moves that result in Sudden Death have the initiator of the move declared winner. (A) In the case of a match going to time, Sudden Death is not played. A player may not select a stage which they have already won on in the set, unless the opponent agrees. Players are responsible for their own controllers (including connectivity, battery life, etc) and control settings. No unnecessary pausing of the game. (B) Stalling is banned. Actions that cause glitches and/or game freezes which prevent the game from continuing are the responsibility of the player. Extension (Infinite or otherwise) of Meta Knight's Dimension Cape / Down B is banned. The above listed yellow actions may result in the player responsible forfeiting the MATCH or SET. Tournament Organizers hold discretionary powers. Excessive screaming made by a player will be barred from play.

A) Time Out Procedures:

In the case of a time out the winner(s) of the match are declared by (in order):
(Singles Only; Meta Knight only) If the player has more than 25 Ledge Grabs they forfeit the match. Highest [combined] stock count. Lowest [combined] percentage. In the case of not being able to declare a winner, a One Stock Four Minute Decider is played with the same characters and stage. In the case of the Decider time out with the previous conditions, Sudden Death is played out.

B) Stalling:

The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

Set Procedure: [/SIZE][/COLOR]
Opponents select their ports.
Opponents choose their characters.
Double blind selection may be called if a player wishes it.
Opponents strike the starter stages one at a time until there is one remaining.
The first match of the set is played on said stage.
After the match is played the winner may declare a legal stage banned.
The previous match's loser selects a remaining legal stage to be played on.
If the previous match's loser wishes to, they may also counterpick a port.
The winner of the previous match picks character first.
The loser then picks their character.
Steps 4-7 are repeated until a set is completed.

(*) In the case of dispute, a best of one Rock, Paper, Scissors match is played. The winner may select preferred port OR which opponent strikes first. The loser obtains the unselected option. Either this method or both players choose G&W and use the side B attack. (The hammer) Whoever gets the higher number will determine the winner.

Legal Stage List

Starters
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise

Counter-picks
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd



Doubles Subset:

Life Stealing is allowed. Team Attack set to ON. Port Selection, unless in mutual agreement must be in a 1221 format (team 1/team 2). Doubles has additional stages, and hence teams may ban TWO of them during counter-picking.

(dont know about this part yet)
Pot disposition
1st 60%
2nd 30%
3rd 10%

 

[C~Dog]

Looks good man. :3

EDIT: I would prefer Picto, but I can live without it. xD

 

[Attila_]

whatever happened to fd as a starter?

i thought we established that already...

 

[dean.]

That's much the same as I would've done. I approve.

 

[Dekar289]

i vote for dgb ruleset, with fd replacing lylat as starter
also no castle siege or frigate orpheon
conservative ftw
fd ftw

edit: nvm, in dgb ruleset lylat was a starter instead of ps1

 

[Timic83]

fd is vomit... this is a good ruleset tho, at least its a tiny bit liberal

 

[tedeth]

Umm... so... pot "disposition".... distribution? Maybe?

Umm.

Anyway.

70/40/10 sounds AMAZING buuuuut I don't know how we're going to increase the pot by 20% magically...



Have I completely missed something here?

 

[Dekar289]

rofl ted
shaya gets my vote for TO of the millennium

 

[Zxv]

FD as starter instead of Lylat. I really think this is an amazing idea.

No Picto or Brinstar as counter... meh I can live with that. I would like to have at least one... But FD as a starter is way more important to me. List looks good otherwise.

 

[Gords]

what are the aditional doubles stages?

 

[dean.]

We typically don't have any extra stages for doubles.

 

[tibs7]

Fd as starter for effing once please
where it should be.

 

[Nova]

4 people want FD as a starter lol.
5, when you include me as well.
But I still haven't decided if I'm going or not so w/e.

 

[Nicks]

i dont want fd as a starter! but i guess im outvoted

also we should add rainbow cruise/pictochat/brinstar to the doubles stagelist.

 

[M]

Brinstar is more suited to singles than doubles anyway.

And FD is meh.

Not really for or against.

 

[dean.]

Nah Nicks, now that you've posted it's 5 (Leish, Conor, me, you, Timic) to 4 (Attila, Tibs, Zxv, Dekar) out of people who are definitely going who want FD as starter or not. Hardly the majority required to change the stagelist.

 

[Shaya]

I don't recall stating 70/40/10.

Also no extra stages for doubles?
</rage>

 

[Leisha]

Well for doubles, I could add a couple more stages. But ill probably keep the singles list as it is, but ill decide soon on what to do with FD starter opinions.

I dont know about the pot yet since i need to discuss it with redact first. But yes, they'll be a pot obviously regardless so dw about that. xD

 

[zApollo]

Pluralist voting here imo, claiming an absolute majority is already proving to be difficult.

 

[Dekar289]

zxv wants fd as a neutral
end of debate

 

[Redact]

Umm... so... pot "disposition".... distribution? Maybe?

Umm.

Anyway.

70/40/10 sounds AMAZING buuuuut I don't know how we're going to increase the pot by 20% magically...



Have I completely missed something here?

Losers have to pay extra for wasting earls time

 

[Attila_]

we've done the argument to death, and i thought we had already agreed on fd as starter.

in fact, im pretty sure the only points left to discuss were if frigate and picto should be allowed.

also, im all for a few extra stages in doubles. its always pretty lols, anyway.

 

[Silfa]

FD as starter is gross.

 

[Splice]

Remebering that with starters you can strike stages so you dont have to play on them, FD gives some chars too many stages that are potentially too beneficial than Lylat does which gives a more even spread.

The debate has been done to death and FD as a starter does not come out on top.

Picto shouldnt be in it really, at all. Im probably the minority on this one but I seriously think its one of the worst stages. The stage transformations screw up rhythm too much and stage control gets altered willy nilly and if one person is in the right position they CAN get a match deciding kill (whether the right hazard comes along or not... so its random) . I wouldnt have it for doubles either. My 2c

Frigate for singles is debatable. I'm totally neutral, yet a little salty.

MK LGL 25?
Too low imo, 35 i reckon. If at all :3

And Leisha you should mention how you intend to run pools with the stages and how many make it out.

 

[Timic83]

its not that fd is a bad stage, its that it creates 3 good stages for diddy in a 5 stagelist

if it was like
fd
bf
sv
yi
ly
ps1
halberd/ps2/rainbow

that wouldnt piss to many off i dont think

 

[Attila_]

compare characters suffering/****** on lylat witht those suffering/****** on fd, and fd comes out on top easily.

try versing mk/snake/marth/pit on lylat, as opposed to versing ics/diddy on fd, or try using lucas/ics/falco on lylat... fd comes out way more viable in a wider variety of matchups.

as good as lylat is for me as a snake main, its a pretty stupid stage against most characters. seriously.

if we have a 3 stage starter list, then fd wouldnt belong, but when you want to add two more stages, then you change things somewhat, and fd/ps1 become the next to 'most equal' stages.

americans have got something right imo.

 

[Splice]

^^^
Doesnt get the concept of striking and the aim of starter list

You dont have to play on either of them
if you strike Lylat, do Snake/Marth/Pit (lol pit? srsly) have 2 more options that they consider strong CPs?
Surely its not as bad as Diddy having access to SV, FD and PS1
and some chars who do poorly on YI/FD/PS1 (such as GaW who prefers BF or SV) i cant strike them all.
I have to do with YI which isnt particularly good at all...

I dont need a stage thats good for me just one thats not bad you see

With Lylat I end up on SV, which isnt a stage that benefits or hinders GaW. Yay equilibrium!

9 out of 10 times Lylat is better than FD at finding an equilibrium stage for a character
and is better at eliminating situations where chars get too many good stages. (too many being 3)

 

[tibs7]

Fd as a starter is so much better!
possibly mk'S worst neutral there so it's already a + for everyone not using him. Ughhh just use fd already.

Also splicey boi ps1 ain't the greatest of stages for diddy....
Use him on these stages against quality opposition and then decide please instead of the usual effing diddy ***** on such and such so we can't hve it in.

 

[Splice]

I like how the only time tibs agrees with his brother is when it aids Diddy Kongs stage options. =/

lol jks

PS1 is good for Diddy against certain chars. Im sure there are some chars that might even take diddy there as a CP idk, but in some MUs diddy has this option. And even without PS1 whats the worst that can happen?
Battlefield aint terrible for Diddy, its definitely a better middleground than PS1 (most of the time)

Im not using "diddy ***** on such and such so we cant have it"
Thats part of what I have said yes (see: "Surely it's not as bad as Diddy having FD/SV/PS1" - Post #27)

But the foundation of my argument is

Lylat has -
less situations where a character gets a less than ideal starter (or at least, the situations are to a lesser extent)

less situations where a character gets a starter that benefits it too much (or at least, to a lesser extent)

Even if the positive or negative impacts are miniscule

ALSO!
The stagelist criteria does not have anything to do with attempting to lessen MKs position as #1 character. Talk like that has no place here.


Tibs
At Couchwarriors on the 3rd
I really want to play a bunch of games with you

 

[dean.]

Billy's line of thought essentially echos my own. As far as I know, Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield and to a lesser extend Pokémon Stadium are all among Diddy Kong's top few stages in the game - an argument could be made for PictoChat but that isn't even legal in a lot of places anymore. Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville ARE Falco's three best stages if I recall correctly. Ice Climbers' best stages involve Final Destination, Battlefield and to a lesser extent Smashville I believe. Etcetera.

So when the aim of a starter list is to find a... "median of bias?" I think is the term used - these characters are already artificially buffed for game 1. The only character that really reaps to benefit from a Smashville/Lylat/Yoshi's/Battlefield/Pokémon Stadium starter list is like Marth as far as I can see with BF/SV/LC... but even then it's not to the extreme as the alternative (for example, Battlefield and Smashville aren't as good vs. MK, Battlefield and Lylat aren't as good vs. Snake, Battlefield and Smashville aren't as good vs. Falco, Smashville and Battlefield to an extent aren't as good vs. Diddy Kong etc.).

compare characters suffering/****** on lylat witht those suffering/****** on fd, and fd comes out on top easily.

try versing mk/snake/marth/pit on lylat, as opposed to versing ics/diddy on fd, or try using lucas/ics/falco on lylat... fd comes out way more viable in a wider variety of matchups.

as good as lylat is for me as a snake main, its a pretty stupid stage against most characters. seriously.

if we have a 3 stage starter list, then fd wouldnt belong, but when you want to add two more stages, then you change things somewhat, and fd/ps1 become the next to 'most equal' stages.

americans have got something right imo.

This isn't necessarily the case... there are a lot more matchups influenced by the "extreme polarity" of Final Destination. It heavily accenuates chaingrabs (for example, it's Marth's worst stage vs. King Dedede), grab releases (it's Marth's best stage vs. Meta Knight), characters with projectiles (it's among Pit's best stages IMO - well, better than it is for him than Lylat anyway) and characters with high mobility (it's Sonic's best stage minus Yoshi's and PictoChat), while hindering the opposites (Ganondorf/Ike/Donkey Kong vs. a projectile camping centric character such as Samus, Fox vs. Pikachu, Ness vs. Charizard, various characters vs. Wario etc.)

Contrast this to the aforementioned characters on Lylat, I don't see how FD comes out on top. Lylat would certainly be among Marth's best stages, yes, but it's not like Snake gains an absolutely obscene advantage there, it's not really better or worse for MK than other starters like Battlefield and I haven't noticed Pit doing especially well there (like, I beat Jei there when he counterpicked me there when he beat me on Battlefield earlier in the set... maybe he was playing poorly). In terms of characters that do poorly on Lylat, I don't know enough about Ice Climbers or Lucas to know why they do poorly on Lylat, but it's not that bad for Falco - like, he has to be a little more careful when recovering and situationally the slant hinders his camp game? Meh.

As good as Final Destination is for me as a King Dedede main, it's a pretty stupid stage against most characters. Seriously.

 

[Attila_]

I'm not gonna reply to everything now; CBC iPhone typing.

But!

Falco dislikes lylat for the same reason lots of characters do; the slant. It makes lasers and phantasm way less useful. It screws over lucas pk fire and ice climber ice block in the same way. Also, nana is freakin ******** there.

And finally, after playing with Tibor fairly extensively, I firmly believe that diddy's best stage is actually yi. Fd doesn't even almost compare to the gayness of yoshi's.

 

[dean.]

Valid points. I still believe that a slanting floor is only situationally a hindrance to these characters (Ice Blocks are unaffected if the Ice Climbers are at the top of a slant shooting down, for example) but it is still a noticably poor stage for them. In my opinion, not to the extent to that FD is for other characters, but whatever.

I think I've sidetracked from the main point of my posts, though... the way I see it is that under a FD/BF/SV/YI/PS starter list a Falco will more often than not strike down to Battlefield, whereas under a BF/SV/YI/LC/PS starter list he'll go to Yoshi's Island or Pokémon Stadium, which I feel is closer to a "median of bias."

Of course, we could always go something more radical like BF/SV/LC/CS/PS2... in all actuality this will find something closer to the "median of bias" because while Smashville and Battlefield seem to benefit a lot of characters equally, Castle Siege and Pokémon Stadium 2 screw over all characters equally. CS and PS2 are viewed as unviable for a competitive starter list by a majority of players though (myself included pretty much) because they detract from the core aspects of Smash (spacing, punishing etc.) with gameplay-altering... stuff. The challenge for a TO is to find a balance between this.

 

[tibs7]

You mentioned it being a good stage for alot of characters bar mk! This is what we waaaannnntt!!

 

[Nova]

MK will pretty much always strike it anyway lol.

The "logical and try to make the game fair taking every characters strengths and weaknesses on 5 starter stages" part of my mind tells me that FD shouldn't be a starter.
Then that's overpowered with "It's Brawl, what is this fair crap you think of?" thoughts.
My personal preference would be to have it as one, but that's not logical or fair.

I personally don't find PS2 that bad, I'd still always prefer PS1 though because it has no wind, belts or ice. *Shrugs*

 

[swordsaint]

I'm not gonna reply to everything now; CBC iPhone typing.

But!

Falco dislikes lylat for the same reason lots of characters do; the slant. It makes lasers and phantasm way less useful. It screws over lucas pk fire and ice climber ice block in the same way. Also, nana is freakin ******** there.

And finally, after playing with Tibor fairly extensively, I firmly believe that diddy's best stage is actually yi. Fd doesn't even almost compare to the gayness of yoshi's.

You're underrating lylat as a falco stage. its not a counterpick, but it doesn't hinder him as much as you think.

slants help lasers because short hop double laser can both be ground height depending on the angle. You've just gotta move with the slant and always be on the lower side.

so far theres 6 characters people seem most concerned with when it comes to starters.

mk
snake
falco
marth
diddy
wario

any other characters people concerned with right now??

and Tibs, if you really want to contribute get off the subject of 'nerfing MK' with the starter lists. sure its what people may want but thats not fair, and not the aim of a starter list.

 

[Attila_]

I thought you quit already, scoot.

Without Fd in starters, falco will always play on Sv, not bf. Cept maybe against wario, btw. This will probably happen despite the list.

However, not having Fd gives mk one less stage that he 'has' to strike, giving him an added advantage in the first match of the set. This is something that can't be disputed.

Also, it's not about nerfing mk, it's about not increasing his advantage. Actually, the main argument for not having Fd seems to be nerfing Diddy and ics, ironically.

Diddy will be playing on bf/yi/ps1 anyway, which are all amazing stages for him anyway (like I said earlier, I cpnsider yi much better than Fd for Diddy anyway).

Other than mk, it's not going to effect the eventual choice of starter very often, btw (perhaps for wario also, although I don't think he likes lylat either).

 

[swordsaint]

I thought you quit already, scoot.

Without Fd in starters, falco will always play on Sv, not bf. Cept maybe against wario, btw. This will probably happen despite the list.

However, not having Fd gives mk one less stage that he 'has' to strike, giving him an added advantage in the first match of the set. This is something that can't be disputed.

Also, it's not about nerfing mk, it's about not increasing his advantage. Actually, the main argument for not having Fd seems to be nerfing Diddy and ics, ironically.

Diddy will be playing on bf/yi/ps1 anyway, which are all amazing stages for him anyway (like I said earlier, I cpnsider yi much better than Fd for Diddy anyway).

Other than mk, it's not going to effect the eventual choice of starter very often, btw (perhaps for wario also, although I don't think he likes lylat either).

just stoooooooooooooop
I play on BF 90% of the time when FD's not in starters. and against Wario, assuming the stage list is BF, SV, LC, YI, PS I'll strike BF and SV. Lylat's slant can both ruin Wario's cg and provide air release spots. YI can ruin warios chain grab from time to time, and its the same with PS, though to a smaller degree so i may strike that instead of SV.

Oh no, MK has the same rules as everyone else, THE HORROR.
Mk vs Falco - SV, BF, LC, YI, PS. Assuming the MK doesn't have a personaly preference, you'd assume we'll end up on PS. How in the world is that not balanced? With FD in place of LC, I have a guaranteed CP. how is that fair? Even for MK.

FD, SV, and BF DO NOT work together in a 5 stage list. Any character that can camp with a projectile gets an instant CP in most matches.

On the subject of diddy with Falco, assuming FD, SV, BF, YI, PS. After playing pat in a proper set, i'll probably strike SV and YI. FD gives a lot of room to play around on and I do feel less pressured there. So with that I agree, however, LC, SV, BF, YI, PS - I'll strike YI and SV/LC still, but that gives him a neutral stage as well.

You can't just be all about personal preference attila, I would absolutely love FD being neutral, free CP first game every game, but its not fair.

sure i may not be attending tournaments (real tournaments that is) doesn't change what i know. just because i stop playing in tournaments doesnt make me instantly clueless abotu the game, and the debate of FD or LC has just been going on for so long, despite the fact LC has proven itself, especially in sydney.

 

[Attila_]

Mk doesn't got by the same rules as everyone else. Dont pretend he does. The lgl targets him specifically, as do a bunch of other ruled that are used in smaller circles. Once again, I'm not trying to nerf mk, just trying not to make him better.

And while you are probably a better falco than me overall, I do think it wouldn't be wrong to suggest that I'd be better at the Diddy mu. And Fd is bad against Diddy, most definately. You want to play on bf>Sv>ps1. Not affected by having Fd in the list (will get strikes instead of lylat.

And if you haven't played the game at a tourney in 6 months, that would mean you're 6 months behind the metagame. You haven't seen how tournaments play out in some time, and that logically makes it hard to form a correct judgement.

Having Fd as starter at tpoo went fine, indeed the metagame wasn't overly affected. No Diddy or ics placed highly, and mk still dominated. It did, however, mean that there was considerably less gay, and less characters being forced onto stages they'd rather not play on.

I definitely don't recall anyone complaining or claiming that things would've been different if a tilting, slanted, paper-thin stage hadve been included.

 

[Nicks]

dean and scoot are right. lylat over fd.

nuff said

 

[swordsaint]

Mk doesn't got by the same rules as everyone else. Dont pretend he does. The lgl targets him specifically, as do a bunch of other ruled that are used in smaller circles. Once again, I'm not trying to nerf mk, just trying not to make him better.

LgL specifically targets him because it makes him unbeatable. I feel like I need to repeat it to emphasise, unbeatable. MK's stage options (especially starters) do not make him unbeatable. There is a clear difference. Trying not to make him better is all well and good, but you can't do that if you're going to boost other characters to make up for it. This is a starter list that doesn't focus solely on MK, it focuses on every match up in the game, and while impossible to do, the aim is to find a neutral stage in as many match ups as possible. Ignore MK for one second. Diddy, Falco, Ice climbers, just to name 3 top tier characters get an instant CP with FD legal. Let's leave it at that for now, because if you can't understand the reasoning behind it after all this time, it's likely you'll never agree.

And while you are probably a better falco than me overall, I do think it wouldn't be wrong to suggest that I'd be better at the Diddy mu. And Fd is bad against Diddy, most definately. You want to play on bf>Sv>ps1. Not affected by having Fd in the list (will get strikes instead of lylat.

Probably? You probably are better at the Diddy match up, I never ever claim to be good at the diddy match up, and Diddy should be banned before MK. Regardless, there's always possibility you're not good at the 'diddy' matchup, instead you're good at the 'tibs' match up (im not saying that is the case, just that it could be). I like FD against Diddy. It's not wrong or right, it's an opinion. Smashville is bad because it's small, asmall stage means heaps of pressure from bananas. FD is good (imo) because it's large, less pressure, more room to run away and regain control. Also, one issue I did want to bring up works perfect here, there are still lots of matchups where the stage choice would be the same with or without LC, but you'll notice more neutral stages occur when it's lylat and not FD.

And if you haven't played the game at a tourney in 6 months, that would mean you're 6 months behind the metagame. You haven't seen how tournaments play out in some time, and that logically makes it hard to form a correct judgement.

I said real tournament. Here's a fake tournament that happened yesterday.

1) Swordsaint Scoot {Falco}
2) Patv {Diddy}
3) Zxv {Metaknight, Marth, Falco, Snake}
4) Tedeth {Snake}
5) Wvz {Ike, Toon Link}
5) ever_alert {Ice Climbers}
7) Gords {Toon Link}

The Australian metagame has not advanced that much. Things are only slightly harder than usual.


Having Fd as starter at tpoo went fine, indeed the metagame wasn't overly affected. No Diddy or ics placed highly, and mk still dominated. It did, however, mean that there was considerably less gay, and less characters being forced onto stages they'd rather not play on.

Ugh. Ice Climbers don't place high in Australia cause they suck (sorry EA that seemed less harsh in my head). Diddy probably wasn't even properly present at Tpoo. (I.E tibs) and MK dominates because he's a good character regardless of the stage list. So again, stop trying to make this solely about Metaknight. Gay is subjective, and I have no idea what kind of gay you're referring to. And characters have to play on stages they'd rather not play, that's the purpose of counterpicking. If you're playing on a stage you'd rather not play on in starters, you're choosing your bans wrong, because LC makes for more balanced starter stages. Show me some examples of match ups where FD is better suited than LC. Oh, and make the stage neutral, not a CP please.

I definitely don't recall anyone complaining or claiming that things would've been different if a tilting, slanted, paper-thin stage hadve been included.

And this last bit was useless. Do you hear people complaining that they would've won if FD was starter? I haven't but I don't play you at every tournament, Attila.

Responses are obvious.