Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MERPIS]

Considering how the PGR v5 season will end this week, I am curious as to which players may fall off. Unfortunately Charlie may possibly not if his 49th place at Genesis 6 and 65th at Frostbite 2018 and Hyrule Saga hurt him badly. 6WX could fall off too, but mostly due to lack of attendance more than anything. I cannot say much for Dyr or Locus, but Locus honestly improved in his results before his issues coming back to the U.S. kicked in.

While this is not related, I wish Pon the best in his English speaking studies. He most likely will not show up much at all in the Smash scene again until maybe it is over.

Goodbye KEN

 

[The_Bookworm]

Is that a tourney I can watch. If so, do you have a link to the stream?

No lol. Stands for "Summer Games Done Quick". It is a speedrun convention. The only Smash tournament to look out for now is CEO.

Btw, any results/word from Master Sword Monday?

 

[Iridium]

No lol. Stands for "Summer Games Done Quick". It is a speedrun convention. The only Smash tournament to look out for now is CEO.

Btw, any results/word from Master Sword Monday?

Sorry about that mistake.

Master Sword Monday
1. Marss
2. Elegant
3. Larry Lurr
4. VoiD
5. Light
5. Zenyou
7. Javi
7. Tyroy
9. Shuton
9. Abadango (R.I.P Japan overall.)
9. Ri-ma
9. Kameme (?)
13. Yeti
13. Stroder
13. Koolaid
13. AC
17. Cacogen
17. Charlie (?)
17. Zaki
17. Raito
17. WaDi (?)
17. komorikiri (?)
17. Eon
17. JumboJack (?) (He beat Abadango 2-1 in winners)

Spoiler: Outside of top 24.

25. T
25. Sigma
25. Jdizzle
25. Light (German Sheik)
25. Nom
25. Halo
49. Pon
49. Mr. R (seriously, he went all Roy).
129/145 (smash.gg placings). Rickles

 

[TDK]

Don't blink, because CEO 2018 pools are out:

Spoiler

3 people make it out: 1 in winners, 2 in losers.

Pool A1: Larry Lurr vs Dakpo , Sol in losers
Pool A2: Tweek vs DeluxeMenu , Puppeh in losers
Pool A3: Dyr vs Sinji , Virum in losers
Pool A4: Cosmos vs Child , Stocktaker69 in losers
Pool A5: Zaki vs Rags , Zurak in losers
Pool A6: Elegant vs Ryo , d2da in losers
Pool A7: Marss vs Zeta (?), Rival in losers
Pool A8: Fatality vs Kiki , Tatuman in losers

Pool B1: Wrath vs Pugwest , Lade in losers
Pool B2: Charlie vs Myran , Waldo in losers
Pool B3: Nairo vs Dath , C. Falcon in losers
Pool B4: Manny vs Sharpyzard , DM888 in losers
Pool B5: Light vs Salt One , JarrodKB in losers
Pool B6: Captain Zack vs SuperGirlKels , WonderBread in losers
Pool B7: Shuton vs K9Sbruce , Morpheus in losers
Pool B8: Raito vs 8BitMan , Kazeroli in losers

Pool G1: Salem vs NovaPixl , Pelca in losers
Pool G2: Mr. R vs Miloni , Xmas in losers
Pool G3: ESAM vs Light the Lantern , Jayy in losers
Pool G4: Komrikiri vs Rideae , Cagt in losers
Pool G5: ANTi vs ScAtt , Pillow in losers
Pool G6: MKLeo vs You3 , Eldin in losers (Technically Eldin is seeded higher, but I find it hard to believe You3 won't "upset" him)
Pool G7: Dabuz vs RiotLettuce , Rango in losers
Pool G8: Tyroy vs Karna Tachyon in losers

Pool H1: MVD vs Ozone , Mekos in losers
Pool H2: Kameme vs Sonido , Dr. Copter in losers
Pool H3: Abadango vs Eon , Ewok in losers
Pool H4: Falln vs NAKAT , NickRiddle in losers
Pool H5: Samsora vs Master Raven , Phuzix in losers
Pool H6: Ac vs MuteAce , GoblinMan in losers
Pool H7: Captain L vs Blank , iTheta in losers
Pool H8: Mistake vs Xaltis , MageOfSypmphonia in losers

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sorry about that mistake.

Master Sword Monday
1. Marss
2. Elegant
3. Larry Lurr
4. VoiD
5. Light
5. Zenyou
7. Javi
7. Tyroy
9. Shuton
9. Abadango (R.I.P Japan overall.)
9. Ri-ma
9. Kameme (?)
13. Yeti
13. Stroder
13. Koolaid
13. AC
17. Cacogen
17. Charlie (?)
17. Zaki
17. Raito
17. WaDi (?)
17. komorikiri (?)
17. Eon
17. JumboJack (?) (He beat Abadango 2-1 in winners)

Spoiler: Outside of top 24.

25. T
25. Sigma
25. Jdizzle
25. Light (German Sheik)
25. Nom
25. Halo
49. Pon
49. Mr. R (seriously, he went all Roy).
129/145 (smash.gg placings). Rickles

What was Mr. R thinking lol. Great performance from Marss overall, especially from his underperformance at Hyrule Saga.

Don't blink, because CEO 2018 pools are out:

Spoiler

3 people make it out: 1 in winners, 2 in losers.

Pool A1: Larry Lurr vs Dakpo , Sol in losers
Pool A2: Tweek vs DeluxeMenu , Puppeh in losers
Pool A3: Dyr vs Sinji , Virum in losers
Pool A4: Cosmos vs Child , Stocktaker69 in losers
Pool A5: Zaki vs Rags , Zurak in losers
Pool A6: Elegant vs Ryo , d2da in losers
Pool A7: Marss vs Zeta (?), Rival in losers
Pool A8: Fatality vs Kiki , Tatuman in losers

Pool B1: Wrath vs Pugwest , Lade in losers
Pool B2: Charlie vs Myran , Waldo in losers
Pool B3: Nairo vs Dath , C. Falcon in losers
Pool B4: Manny vs Sharpyzard , DM888 in losers
Pool B5: Light vs Salt One , JarrodKB in losers
Pool B6: Captain Zack vs SuperGirlKels , WonderBread in losers
Pool B7: Shuton vs K9Sbruce , Morpheus in losers
Pool B8: Raito vs 8BitMan , Kazeroli in losers

Pool G1: Salem vs NovaPixl , Pelca in losers
Pool G2: Mr. R vs Miloni , Xmas in losers
Pool G3: ESAM vs Light the Lantern , Jayy in losers
Pool G4: Komrikiri vs Rideae , Cagt in losers
Pool G5: ANTi vs ScAtt , Pillow in losers
Pool G6: MKLeo vs You3 :4duckunt:, Eldin in losers (Technically Eldin is seeded higher, but I find it hard to believe You3 won't "upset" him)
Pool G7: Dabuz vs RiotLettuce , Rango in losers
Pool G8: Tyroy vs Karna Tachyon in losers

Pool H1: MVD vs Ozone , Mekos in losers
Pool H2: Kameme vs Sonido , Dr. Copter in losers
Pool H3: Abadango vs Eon , Ewok in losers
Pool H4: Falln vs NAKAT , NickRiddle in losers
Pool H5: Samsora vs Master Raven , Phuzix in losers
Pool H6: Ac vs MuteAce , GoblinMan in losers
Pool H7: Captain L vs Blank , iTheta in losers
Pool H8: Mistake vs Xaltis , MageOfSypmphonia in losers

Ryo and Dath?! Looking forward to this tournament.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't blink, because CEO 2018 pools are out:

Spoiler

3 people make it out: 1 in winners, 2 in losers.

Pool A1: Larry Lurr vs Dakpo , Sol in losers
Pool A2: Tweek vs DeluxeMenu , Puppeh in losers
Pool A3: Dyr vs Sinji , Virum in losers
Pool A4: Cosmos vs Child , Stocktaker69 in losers
Pool A5: Zaki vs Rags , Zurak in losers
Pool A6: Elegant vs Ryo , d2da in losers
Pool A7: Marss vs Zeta (?), Rival in losers
Pool A8: Fatality vs Kiki , Tatuman in losers

Pool B1: Wrath vs Pugwest , Lade in losers
Pool B2: Charlie vs Myran , Waldo in losers
Pool B3: Nairo vs Dath , C. Falcon in losers
Pool B4: Manny vs Sharpyzard , DM888 in losers
Pool B5: Light vs Salt One , JarrodKB in losers
Pool B6: Captain Zack vs SuperGirlKels , WonderBread in losers
Pool B7: Shuton vs K9Sbruce , Morpheus in losers
Pool B8: Raito vs 8BitMan , Kazeroli in losers

Pool G1: Salem vs NovaPixl , Pelca in losers
Pool G2: Mr. R vs Miloni , Xmas in losers
Pool G3: ESAM vs Light the Lantern , Jayy in losers
Pool G4: Komrikiri vs Rideae , Cagt in losers
Pool G5: ANTi vs ScAtt , Pillow in losers
Pool G6: MKLeo vs You3 :4duckunt:, Eldin in losers (Technically Eldin is seeded higher, but I find it hard to believe You3 won't "upset" him)
Pool G7: Dabuz vs RiotLettuce , Rango in losers
Pool G8: Tyroy vs Karna Tachyon in losers

Pool H1: MVD vs Ozone , Mekos in losers
Pool H2: Kameme vs Sonido , Dr. Copter in losers
Pool H3: Abadango vs Eon , Ewok in losers
Pool H4: Falln vs NAKAT , NickRiddle in losers
Pool H5: Samsora vs Master Raven , Phuzix in losers
Pool H6: Ac vs MuteAce , GoblinMan in losers
Pool H7: Captain L vs Blank , iTheta in losers
Pool H8: Mistake vs Xaltis , MageOfSypmphonia in losers

I hate it how Zaki vs Rags literally just happened and they're projected to face off again.
Also, it's the first time You3 is back to America since EVO and he's projected to face MKLeo.... just like he did at EVO.

CEO looking crazy stacked tho.

 

[TDK]

I hate it how Zaki vs Rags literally just happened and they're projected to face off again.
Also, it's the first time You3 is back to America since EVO and he's projected to face MKLeo.... just like he did at EVO.

CEO looking crazy stacked tho.

Zaki only fought Rags at Hyrule Saga because he upset MKLeo, otherwise it wasn't in the cards at all. CEO pools were drafted before Hyrule saga started (Brackets weren't viewable to me until today), so they didn't have any way of knowing that we would end up seeing it the week before.

 

[CodeBlue_]

Thinkaman Speaking of dashdancing:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8qpxiw/why_the_precision_of_melee_dash_dancing_matters/

Key points of interest:

"At each point of Mango's dash dance he stops himself at positions where he threatens to win a favorable hitbox challenge. Armada knows this and instead of taking the foolish challenge, tries to call out where Mango will stop and win before he initiates a challenge. He guesses wrong. To summarize: offensive dash dancing is using pressure to force a whiff. "

Timestamp of Mango's dashdance against Armada

"you notice, he never stops at a place where he can initiate a hitbox challenge. Why should he? Falcon is terrible at winning direct challenges and Sheik core strength is winning them. On further inspection, you should notice that Wizzy is using that dash dance length to run away from areas Mew2king wants to win challenges at. To summarize: defensive dash dancing is whiff punishing bad pressure. "

Timestamp of the interaction between Wizzrobe and Hbox

I think this is an idea that suggests a level a nuance to dashdancing instead of exclusively the "null". The OP addresses two different forms of dashdancing: offensive and defensive. Both are still null options, but can be used open up opportunities for offense or defense. Additionally, I feel defensive dash dancing is a form of microspacing that functions similarly as a defensive option such as a shield or a wavedash without as much commitment.

Just a food for thought for this thread, as I know Smash 4 players might not understand why some higher level Melee players want dash dancing to return. I know this user from my time on SmashWiki so I can attest to his insight (outside of the fact he really pushes for Marth to be unnerfed from even his Brawl incarnation...I think most of can agree we really don't need Melee Marth back).

Pool A5: Zaki vs Rags

Oof. Hopefully Rags get a better grip on the matchup this time around. I don't want to see another Smash N Splash.

Me too youtube commenter

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

CEO is looking more stacked then last year.

 

[Ordeaux26]

CEO is looking more stacked then last year.

what about in 2016

 

[Lord Dio]

god have mercy on those in the G pools.................yikes

 

[MERPIS]

I hate it how Zaki vs Rags literally just happened and they're projected to face off again.
Also, it's the first time You3 is back to America since EVO and he's projected to face MKLeo.... just like he did at EVO.

CEO looking crazy stacked tho.

All those meta knights and sonics
AND NO KEN OR AC

 

[Evilagram]

Null Option is the wrong term for dash dancing. Dash Dancing doesn't add a null option, it adds a new RPS loop. If you play traditional fighting games, you'd recognize it as the Footsies loop, of Poke > Whiff Punish > Deep Poke.

In Melee and traditional fighting games, there are multiple rock paper scissors loops that operate at once. You have a variety of options that all counter each other with varying pay-offs, and asymmetric counters. Like there are options that might crush the majority of opposing options, and which require a specific counter, but don't net much reward, such as fireballs. There's options that are high risk but low reward, like dragon punches, or options that beat the majority of opposing options, but which lose to an opponent who is waiting for it, like jump-ins. In this way, players can pick more specific counters with higher rewards sometimes, or more general counters to guarantee wins against a variety of options. This means that better players can pick up on tendencies more readily, because the large number of options leads to players favoring some options over others, and there's more of a rational basis for why a player would pick one option over another. This lets players develop better decision-making skills, playing to the odds more, as well as predict opponents based on what would be a good idea for them.

Smash 4 generally is designed to discourage this type of hard counter and hedging of bets, and make everything closer to straight-up RPS, which is part of why the game is so upset heavy. There aren't a lot of different RPS loops coming into play, there's only a few, and there aren't many technical skill factors separating lower levels from higher ones, so players have less ability to be consistent by picking better options, and they have less technical skill barriers to raise their efficiency relative to lower level players, they just need to win at straight-up RPS more frequently.

Wavedashing isn't a strictly better version of walking, it has commitment. You can't act for the first 10 landing frames, and you can't act during the jumpsquat beforehand either. It's not a null option either, it's a burst of speed like a dash, except you're in a neutral state at the end like a walk. It's somewhere between the two, except with a type of commitment that neither normally has.

Having more options allows more RPS loops to come together, making the neutral, advantage, and disadvantage scenarios more interesting to play, giving people more to master, separating higher level players from lower level ones.

 

[Thinkaman]

Evilagram linked the followup image I was going to provide CodeBlue_ when I got internet back, so I guess now I don't have to.

But I will provide the intro I would have written, and then pick at a few differences.

I mentioned before that fighting games are layers of nested triangles, working as "yomi factories" that crank out interesting gameplay decision states multiple times a second. The outermost loop (insofar as that is a real distinction; it's kind of abstract) is offense/defense/null, dealing with the "primary resource" of a character's animation frames.

But individual options within those categories still have meaning in other triangles down the chain. Attacks interact in various spacing and priority triangles, with both themselves and defensive/null options. Every attack > defense exception creates some sort of attack > throw > block > attack style triangle. And null options interact in the second most important triangle of all, the spacing triangle, aka the footsies triangle.

(Now insert Evilagram's linked image here.)

The rest of the post then turns into some 2008-era Melee master race tripe, talking down to us about how real fighting games have good mechanics.

In particular the idea that Smash 4 doesn't have a spacing triangle is pretty wacky--we're talking about the successor to Brawl, the most spacing-heavy fighting game of all time. If anything, for Brawl in particular I'd sooner buy the opposite argument: That Brawl's obsessive focus on spacing marginalizes all of its other triangles. Smash 4 is chock full of triangles, and the idea that it is just raw, unoriented RPS is a really bizarre thing to say on page 148 of topic 6 in a competitive forum 4 years after release.

It's also... dubious to assert Smash 4 as inherently upset heavy in light of Zero's existence. I think Smash 4 does have a modest amount more upsets than Melee in the top 200 range, but I think this is kinda obvious for a younger game with a more widely played cast. (Real talk--does anyone thing Zaki would have beaten MKLeo if MKLeo was super well-versed in the DDD matchup?)

But back to the topic: You are 100% correct that wavedashing has frame commitment; I often avoid using the label "strictly superior" for that reason, though sometimes I just qualify it with "almost" or "practically instead. The key is that the frame commitment fits entirely within the human reaction window, making the commitment very transient in all the cases a wavedash would actually be used. And regardless, it's still less commitment than any defensive option, which is the important relation in all of this.

So on the whole, at the abstract level of that outermost loop, framing wavedashing (and dashdancing) as a minimal-commitment movement option is correct, given that they are in fact minimal-commitment movement options.

I'll respond to the other questions about Smash Ultimate in a bit!

 

[Novaseer]

The RPS triangle of "Poke > Deep Poke/Burst Option > Whiff Punish > Poke" can be seen in Smash 4. MKLeo's Marth is built around this concept. Watch one of his matches, and pay attention to what he does in the neutral. He will often do one of three things whenever he is standing just outside normal attack range. He'll either:

A. Perfect pivot back, and if the opponent commits an attack Leo will then dash forward to whiff punish.
B. Leo will suddenly burst deep forward with a dash grab/side-B, catching any inaction or retreat.
C. Leo will jab or F-air as a poke to prevent any attempt to enter his space.

Mkleo will mixup these three options fairly evenly. He's one of the best at the footsies dynamic in Smash 4.

 

[Thinkaman]

May I ask? What are your thoughts on Smash Ultimate mechanics and how will they affect the neutral / advantage/ disadvantage state of the game compared to Smash 4? Also what do you think of the global change of aerial lag and movement in genera?

Before I answer this, I'm going to qualify that as long as it's up to me, Smash Ultimate discussion is allowed in this thread. (With a few caveats)

With no shade intended, the current Ultimate general forum and character forums are places for hype, speculation, and broader audience discussion. If you want a place to discuss the impact that 3f jumpsquats will have on the cast, that place doesn't really exist, so I guess that place is this place.

I've started moderating a little more closely (as alluded to earlier), but Ulti discussion isn't going to be some off-topic trap. As long as you are tying it to Smash 4 competitive discussion (which frankly is hard not to) and not rambling about which C-list early-90s Donkey Kong villain you hope is in the game or reacting to every new screenshot, your posts are welcome here.

If I have to make a more exact list of what is and isn't okay I will, but I don't suspect that will be necessary.

----------

To continue postponing answering this question by means of narcissism, here is my Smash 5 wishlist. Let's see if santa Sakurai had me on the naughty or nice list this Christmas:

Doesn't look like it.
Maybe? Sort of? Hopefully?
Included! Or almost, or better.

Meta

1. Developed by Bandai Namco
   • Sakurai was a given, but continuing with the previous team means faster development, more content, and fewer bugs. People are overlooking how significant this news is.

Rules

1. First to X KOs mode
   • Teams needs this so badly. Teams is the best mode, but 2v1s and 3v1s are boring garbage. I will hold out hope until release day.
2. Half damage team attack option
   • Accidental team KOs are unreasonably common/punishing in teams at even high level play. (Like if SDs were 10x as common.) It's also a huge turn off to new players. We can keep the gameplay benefits of friendly fire without the excessive severity. (Trivia: The only other eSport with friendly fire is CS:GO, which does something similar to this.)
3. A competitively stable stall-proof (King of the Hill) tiebreaker option.
   • Alas. I did think there was some hope for a crappy tiebreaker option, like the one the community currently observes, after For Glory did something similar. But although we got an improved Sudden Death (for what that's worth), the tiebreaker itself is unchanged.
4. Higher damage in 1-on-1s
   • Holy crap, I never thought they'd actually do this one. What would really be neat is if the ratio varied very slightly on a per character basis, for mode-specific balance tilting.
5. FIX THE PLAYER NAME INPUT UI!
   • About time.
6. Save match settings.
   • Please?

General Mechanics

(Not listing obvious stuff like ledge trumping, limited ledge invincibility, limited jab resets, re-grab disallow window, hitting opponents deals damage and launches them farther, ect.)

1. Make rage only apply to knockback growth, not base
   • Rage seems to have been changed, but is it fixed?!?
2. Allow neutral ground actions ("anything") out of dash start and turnaround.
   • I'm both surprised and not that we're actually getting this--a more extreme version that more or less allows anything at any part of a dash. I just wanted to make perfect-pivoting obsolete and improve wide footsies a la wavedashing, and this goes a step farther.
3. Techable footstool landing
   • Kind of a no-brainer.
4. Non-techable grounded spikes
   • Haven't seen one of these yet, though I did think I saw someone tech a Ganon side-b. (and eat a d-tilt)
5. Hitstun reset on ground ricochet
   • Not optimistic about this one, but I haven't seen anyone act quickly out of a spike yet, so...
6. Normalize jumpsquats
   • There was a lot of debate on this very topic in this very thread, in which various people pointed out that jumpsquat speed had a better correlation to tier position than any other single stat--was it worth it? I was very neutral on the topic, seeing the source of imbalance but being cautious about normalizing characters. Over time, I came to see it more and more like Yoshi's inability-to-jump-OoS--a source of character differentiation that did more harm than it was worth. All this said, I'm surprised they would actually do it, especially all the way down to 3f, since that meant they'd HAVE to...
7. Add a short-hop button
   • Not what I expected but even better and way more logical! Very excited about this.
8. Add a forced-neutral shortcut
   • This is really esoteric and I never thought they'd actually do this. But I sure would like it!
9. Tighten AC windows across the board--most characters should have a good AC SH aerial.
   • Jury is out on this one, but landing lag does seem to be reduced for many characters anyway? And for what it's worth, the 2 moves I wanted to have a stricter AC window do!
10. Make grab-clashes not resolved by port. (or randomness)
    • Hey look, they did it!
11. All Final Smashes to be "skill shots"
    • Excellent. It remains to be seen how balanced they are--but this gets rid of both the very worst and very best, so a great start.

Stages

1. Keep Omegas
   • I was surprised how many people took these for granted, given what an absurd amount of work they are. After all, what everyone ACTUALLY wants is...
2. Battlefield Mode
   • We did it fam.
3. Randomness/Lethality Toggle
   • So, hazards toggle is a more extreme version of this. I want to play sophisticated stages where I can checkmate my opponents into hazards--predictable hazards with a proper reward, not random ones that kill them outright. I'm actually a little sad (though also happy) about the hazards off toggle, since now even fewer people will have the balls to play me on Norfair like a real man.

Character Specifics

Editor's Note: I went back and sorted these by "Reveal Order"; note that I did not include many characters I'm ignorant about but would like to see tweaked, such as Wario and Greninja and Shulk.

1. Remove DK and Bowser's u-throw combos.
   • I assumed they'd be fine as long as they got dash/pivot and jumpsquat changes--and they actually did!
2. No freefall after Giant Punch.
   • I though many of these individually were likely, but didn't think they'd change 'em across the board. Nice.
3. Redo his character entirely as BotW Link. I mean. Duh.
   • I get no points for this incredible prediction.
4. Samus charge in air!
   • Wow, nailed it. Lucky I forgot to predict any changes to jab though, I'd have missed that one!
5. Replace PK Flash/Freeze with... anything else
   • Nope.
6. Rebalance Jigglypuff aerials.
   • I left this vague because there are many things that could work spanning all aerials, including Pound. A faster bair could possibly do the trick single-handedly, we'll see.
7. LET ZELDA SHEILD CANCEL PHANTOM CHARGE!
   • Holy crap they actually did it. And then some!
8. Also give Zelda a working jab.
   • Yes!
9. Also also no freefall after Din's Fire.
   • Finally! Loving the new Zelda.
10. Improve Doc's dair.
    • Wow, this is NOT what I expected when I said this! I was talking about just doing something significant to Doc's existing dair to make it not as outclassed by Mario's. It is neat the Doc gets a spike though, want to see how it works in his kit.
11. Somehow make Falco fun.
    • We can hope!
12. Improve Ganon's Wizkick.
    • I've heard it's better. It looks better. Want to see how it interacts with situations for him.
13. Let Ganon up-b after side-b.
    • So somehow I asked for this specifically instead of no-freefall-side-b, which is the more logical version of the same.
14. Replace Ganon d-smash.
    • I was half joking, but well, um, they actually did this. I'm actually sad about losing that amazing u-smash though! Neutral on the f-smash swap.
15. Somehow make Roy good.
    • I'd be lying if I said I was hopeful. He'll probably be better, but meh.
16. Restore some true-terror glass-cannon power to G&W.
    • Guess we'll see!
17. Somehow make Dark Pit interesting.
    • Literally anything would be nice.
18. Remove Ike's SH AC fair, but otherwise reduce his landing lag.
    • Nice.
19. Nerf Diddy d-tilt a smidge, otherwise leave him alone.
    • TBD.
20. Do not let Sonic shield-cancel Spin Dash.
    • YES! Give him all the other buffs you want, Sonic is fixed!
21. Make Gordo Throw frames drastically more favorable.
    • I've heard this is the case!
22. Widen Wii Fit Trainer option range on Header to allow it to work like Weighted Header.
    • I didn't have high hopes for this one.
23. Replace Jolt Haymaker with Grounding Blow.
    • I'm marking this one, surprisingly, as a Sort Of, since the no-freefall-change accomplishes many of the goals that make Grounding Blow so desirable.
24. Give Palutena Super Speed. Please.
    • Tbqh she looks like the worst character. (If you put a gun to my head and made me pick one) None of the systematic changes work in her favor, and her specials all still seem mediocre.
25. Fix Palutena's tilts.
    • They look better but still bad.
26. Give Pac-Man something, anything, that can be used on shields well. Grabs, some aerials, whatever--I don't care.
    • Did I see a faster grab?!?
27. Replace Cannonball Shot with... anything else.
    • At least it looks cooler?
28. Do something to give Bowser Jr. more neutral mixups.
    • Not holding my breath.
29. Improve DH's recovery in any way.
    • Air dodging (and acting???) out of it a la Olimar would be a huge buff.
30. Fix DH's uair so people don't fall out of it.
31. Give Gunmen > 5% HP, so they can be used reliably as a projectile counter.
32. Make Gunmen all fall a consistent distance in air before firing.
33. Nerf Cloud nair considerably.
34. Do not allow Cloud FH AC dair.
35. Nerf LCS.
36. Make Limit expire if it is not used.
    • Super happy with the Cloud nerfs. Can't believe I got *all* the nerfs I wanted. I approve of the uair changes too. Cloud's up-B buff is a fine compensation for him; I saw way too many new players die to that, expecting it to logically work like Kirby or Ike.
37. Make Corrin less about pin, somehow.
    • It seems clearly worse, but how much? We'll have to see what the effects of this are. TBQH, I wasn't expecting Corrin back at all, and was already mourning the loss!
38. Make Bayo's recovery less safe.
    • Haven't seen anything that suggests this.
39. Increase FAF on Bayo fair1.
    • This seemed to be the case?
40. Increase SDI ratios on Bayo ladder moves.
    • This doesn't seem to be the case, but SDI in general seemed absent at the Invitational, and Bayo's ladder is obviously going to change in some way before release.
41. Change knockback on Bayo u-tilt.
    • Oh hey, the angle change on this is really appropriate.
42. Nerf Witch Time base slow duration.
    • Also good. The move can be buffed in other ways as long as it can't link to KOs until high %s.

Overall, I was floored with how much of my wishlist I got on reveal day. Some stuff I didn't wish for but love:

• Dodge "stale moves" is a new player's wet dream. Very good design!
• Hybrid air dodge is basically "wavebounce neutrals for everyone!" and should help normalize both landing ability and recoveries.
• Fast-switch Pokemon Trainer!!!!!
• Reasonable Monado UI
• New Shield Parry--no more "you were one frame off so I accidentally perfect shielded you gg"
• Stage before Character selection, finally! Why wasn't this on my list???
• I hope new Link works out;; the timings on Bombs needs to be favorable, but it's fine that he can't detonate a held bomb.
• I doubt Yoshi Egg Bounce really helps him, but it's fun.
• Inkling looks like a lot of fun.
• Actually really happy with the "Echo Fighter" branding; hope we can now have a lot of interesting variants (that took like a day to make) without legions of morons complaining about clones.

Balance is looking promising out the gate--we've got major nerfs to the two big problems, and major buffs to everyone in the bottom 50%, with only a few maybes next to Palutena, Jigglypuff, Bowser Jr, and Miis. It looks better than ever to be a heavy, especially if you have good tilts.

For what it's worth, I'm right there with the plurality of the reddit polls: I'm most excited about Pokemon Trainer and currently intend to play him the most. (Based on our very limited information) If the 3-way balance is close enough, PT will be an amazing character for viewers, destined to be a crowd favorite. I actually don't care about fatigue, but it was unnecessary and encouraged stalling if they are unbalanced (like in Brawl), so why not just get rid of it?

----------

Whew, okay. But you asked about the end result of all of this. I think it depends on 3 unanswered questions:

1. Exactly how safe-on-shield do aerials become across the cast, with these landing lag changes?
2. How consistently can players (at various skill levels) parry moves, especially the aforementioned single hit spaced aerials?
3. What is the timer/mechanism by which dodge scaling resets?

I'm keeping an eye out specifically for great OoS nairs and promising tilts for dashes. But those 3 questions are pre-requisites for really starting to guess the neutral game lay of the land ahead of us.

(And then various things including the new air dodge affects what the advantage/disadvantage states will look like)

 

[Gamegenie222]

All i ask is Bamco for make training mode not garbage and up to standard of other fg's. Put a rage toggle as well as stale moves toggle with more CPU options on platforms and ledges and a play and record feature like seriously smash training mode is soo behind it actually annoys me playing smash nowadays.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just wanted to say there is ALOT of great discussion going on.

Also I think footsies in Melee is a joke much like Vs series games.

HERP DERP LEMME JOCKEY FOR SPACE WITH MASSIVE HITBOXES THAT CONFIRM INTO MASSIVE DAMAGE FOR BARELY ANY RISK!!!

 

[MERPIS]

Alright time for a big question
What're some characters that you think could be top 10/15, if they were fully optimized or their potential was fully realized?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Before I answer this, I'm going to qualify that as long as it's up to me, Smash Ultimate discussion is allowed in this thread. (With a few caveats)

With no shade intended, the current Ultimate general forum and character forums are places for hype, speculation, and broader audience discussion. If you want a place to discuss the impact that 3f jumpsquats will have on the cast, that place doesn't really exist, so I guess that place is this place.

I've started moderating a little more closely (as alluded to earlier), but Ulti discussion isn't going to be some off-topic trap. As long as you are tying it to Smash 4 competitive discussion (which frankly is hard not to) and not rambling about which C-list early-90s Donkey Kong villain you hope is in the game or reacting to every new screenshot, your posts are welcome here.

If I have to make a more exact list of what is and isn't okay I will, but I don't suspect that will be necessary.

----------

To continue postponing answering this question by means of narcissism, here is my Smash 5 wishlist. Let's see if santa Sakurai had me on the naughty or nice list this Christmas:

Doesn't look like it.
Maybe? Sort of? Hopefully?
Included! Or almost, or better.

Meta

1. Developed by Bandai Namco
   • Sakurai was a given, but continuing with the previous team means faster development, more content, and fewer bugs. People are overlooking how significant this news is.

Rules

1. First to X KOs mode
   • Teams needs this so badly. Teams is the best mode, but 2v1s and 3v1s are boring garbage. I will hold out hope until release day.
2. Half damage team attack option
   • Accidental team KOs are unreasonably common/punishing in teams at even high level play. (Like if SDs were 10x as common.) It's also a huge turn off to new players. We can keep the gameplay benefits of friendly fire without the excessive severity. (Trivia: The only other eSport with friendly fire is CS:GO, which does something similar to this.)
3. A competitively stable stall-proof (King of the Hill) tiebreaker option.
   • Alas. I did think there was some hope for a crappy tiebreaker option, like the one the community currently observes, after For Glory did something similar. But although we got an improved Sudden Death (for what that's worth), the tiebreaker itself is unchanged.
4. Higher damage in 1-on-1s
   • Holy crap, I never thought they'd actually do this one. What would really be neat is if the ratio varied very slightly on a per character basis, for mode-specific balance tilting.
5. FIX THE PLAYER NAME INPUT UI!
   • About time.
6. Save match settings.
   • Please?

General Mechanics

(Not listing obvious stuff like ledge trumping, limited ledge invincibility, limited jab resets, re-grab disallow window, hitting opponents deals damage and launches them farther, ect.)

1. Make rage only apply to knockback growth, not base
   • Rage seems to have been changed, but is it fixed?!?
2. Allow neutral ground actions ("anything") out of dash start and turnaround.
   • I'm both surprised and not that we're actually getting this--a more extreme version that more or less allows anything at any part of a dash. I just wanted to make perfect-pivoting obsolete and improve wide footsies a la wavedashing, and this goes a step farther.
3. Techable footstool landing
   • Kind of a no-brainer.
4. Non-techable grounded spikes
   • Haven't seen one of these yet, though I did think I saw someone tech a Ganon side-b. (and eat a d-tilt)
5. Hitstun reset on ground ricochet
   • Not optimistic about this one, but I haven't seen anyone act quickly out of a spike yet, so...
6. Normalize jumpsquats
   • There was a lot of debate on this very topic in this very thread, in which various people pointed out that jumpsquat speed had a better correlation to tier position than any other single stat--was it worth it? I was very neutral on the topic, seeing the source of imbalance but being cautious about normalizing characters. Over time, I came to see it more and more like Yoshi's inability-to-jump-OoS--a source of character differentiation that did more harm than it was worth. All this said, I'm surprised they would actually do it, especially all the way down to 3f, since that meant they'd HAVE to...
7. Add a short-hop button
   • Not what I expected but even better and way more logical! Very excited about this.
8. Add a forced-neutral shortcut
   • This is really esoteric and I never thought they'd actually do this. But I sure would like it!
9. Tighten AC windows across the board--most characters should have a good AC SH aerial.
   • Jury is out on this one, but landing lag does seem to be reduced for many characters anyway? And for what it's worth, the 2 moves I wanted to have a stricter AC window do!
10. Make grab-clashes not resolved by port. (or randomness)
    • Hey look, they did it!
11. All Final Smashes to be "skill shots"
    • Excellent. It remains to be seen how balanced they are--but this gets rid of both the very worst and very best, so a great start.

Stages

1. Keep Omegas
   • I was surprised how many people took these for granted, given what an absurd amount of work they are. After all, what everyone ACTUALLY wants is...
2. Battlefield Mode
   • We did it fam.
3. Randomness/Lethality Toggle
   • So, hazards toggle is a more extreme version of this. I want to play sophisticated stages where I can checkmate my opponents into hazards--predictable hazards with a proper reward, not random ones that kill them outright. I'm actually a little sad (though also happy) about the hazards off toggle, since now even fewer people will have the balls to play me on Norfair like a real man.

Character Specifics

Editor's Note: I went back and sorted these by "Reveal Order"; note that I did not include many characters I'm ignorant about but would like to see tweaked, such as Wario and Greninja and Shulk.

1. Remove DK and Bowser's u-throw combos.
   • I assumed they'd be fine as long as they got dash/pivot and jumpsquat changes--and they actually did!
2. No freefall after Giant Punch.
   • I though many of these individually were likely, but didn't think they'd change 'em across the board. Nice.
3. Redo his character entirely as BotW Link. I mean. Duh.
   • I get no points for this incredible prediction.
4. Samus charge in air!
   • Wow, nailed it. Lucky I forgot to predict any changes to jab though, I'd have missed that one!
5. Replace PK Flash/Freeze with... anything else
   • Nope.
6. Rebalance Jigglypuff aerials.
   • I left this vague because there are many things that could work spanning all aerials, including Pound. A faster bair could possibly do the trick single-handedly, we'll see.
7. LET ZELDA SHEILD CANCEL PHANTOM CHARGE!
   • Holy crap they actually did it. And then some!
8. Also give Zelda a working jab.
   • Yes!
9. Also also no freefall after Din's Fire.
   • Finally! Loving the new Zelda.
10. Improve Doc's dair.
    • Wow, this is NOT what I expected when I said this! I was talking about just doing something significant to Doc's existing dair to make it not as outclassed by Mario's. It is neat the Doc gets a spike though, want to see how it works in his kit.
11. Somehow make Falco fun.
    • We can hope!
12. Improve Ganon's Wizkick.
    • I've heard it's better. It looks better. Want to see how it interacts with situations for him.
13. Let Ganon up-b after side-b.
    • So somehow I asked for this specifically instead of no-freefall-side-b, which is the more logical version of the same.
14. Replace Ganon d-smash.
    • I was half joking, but well, um, they actually did this. I'm actually sad about losing that amazing u-smash though! Neutral on the f-smash swap.
15. Somehow make Roy good.
    • I'd be lying if I said I was hopeful. He'll probably be better, but meh.
16. Restore some true-terror glass-cannon power to G&W.
    • Guess we'll see!
17. Somehow make Dark Pit interesting.
    • Literally anything would be nice.
18. Remove Ike's SH AC fair, but otherwise reduce his landing lag.
    • Nice.
19. Nerf Diddy d-tilt a smidge, otherwise leave him alone.
    • TBD.
20. Do not let Sonic shield-cancel Spin Dash.
    • YES! Give him all the other buffs you want, Sonic is fixed!
21. Make Gordo Throw frames drastically more favorable.
    • I've heard this is the case!
22. Widen Wii Fit Trainer option range on Header to allow it to work like Weighted Header.
    • I didn't have high hopes for this one.
23. Replace Jolt Haymaker with Grounding Blow.
    • I'm marking this one, surprisingly, as a Sort Of, since the no-freefall-change accomplishes many of the goals that make Grounding Blow so desirable.
24. Give Palutena Super Speed. Please.
    • Tbqh she looks like the worst character. (If you put a gun to my head and made me pick one) None of the systematic changes work in her favor, and her specials all still seem mediocre.
25. Fix Palutena's tilts.
    • They look better but still bad.
26. Give Pac-Man something, anything, that can be used on shields well. Grabs, some aerials, whatever--I don't care.
    • Did I see a faster grab?!?
27. Replace Cannonball Shot with... anything else.
    • At least it looks cooler?
28. Do something to give Bowser Jr. more neutral mixups.
    • Not holding my breath.
29. Improve DH's recovery in any way.
    • Air dodging (and acting???) out of it a la Olimar would be a huge buff.
30. Fix DH's uair so people don't fall out of it.
31. Give Gunmen > 5% HP, so they can be used reliably as a projectile counter.
32. Make Gunmen all fall a consistent distance in air before firing.
33. Nerf Cloud nair considerably.
34. Do not allow Cloud FH AC dair.
35. Nerf LCS.
36. Make Limit expire if it is not used.
    • Super happy with the Cloud nerfs. Can't believe I got *all* the nerfs I wanted. I approve of the uair changes too. Cloud's up-B buff is a fine compensation for him; I saw way too many new players die to that, expecting it to logically work like Kirby or Ike.
37. Make Corrin less about pin, somehow.
    • It seems clearly worse, but how much? We'll have to see what the effects of this are. TBQH, I wasn't expecting Corrin back at all, and was already mourning the loss!
38. Make Bayo's recovery less safe.
    • Haven't seen anything that suggests this.
39. Increase FAF on Bayo fair1.
    • This seemed to be the case?
40. Increase SDI ratios on Bayo ladder moves.
    • This doesn't seem to be the case, but SDI in general seemed absent at the Invitational, and Bayo's ladder is obviously going to change in some way before release.
41. Change knockback on Bayo u-tilt.
    • Oh hey, the angle change on this is really appropriate.
42. Nerf Witch Time base slow duration.
    • Also good. The move can be buffed in other ways as long as it can't link to KOs until high %s.

Overall, I was floored with how much of my wishlist I got on reveal day. Some stuff I didn't wish for but love:

• Dodge "stale moves" is a new player's wet dream. Very good design!
• Hybrid air dodge is basically "wavebounce neutrals for everyone!" and should help normalize both landing ability and recoveries.
• Fast-switch Pokemon Trainer!!!!!
• Reasonable Monado UI
• New Shield Parry--no more "you were one frame off so I accidentally perfect shielded you gg"
• Stage before Character selection, finally! Why wasn't this on my list???
• I hope new Link works out;; the timings on Bombs needs to be favorable, but it's fine that he can't detonate a held bomb.
• I doubt Yoshi Egg Bounce really helps him, but it's fun.
• Inkling looks like a lot of fun.
• Actually really happy with the "Echo Fighter" branding; hope we can now have a lot of interesting variants (that took like a day to make) without legions of morons complaining about clones.

Balance is looking promising out the gate--we've got major nerfs to the two big problems, and major buffs to everyone in the bottom 50%, with only a few maybes next to Palutena, Jigglypuff, Bowser Jr, and Miis. It looks better than ever to be a heavy, especially if you have good tilts.

For what it's worth, I'm right there with the plurality of the reddit polls: I'm most excited about Pokemon Trainer and currently intend to play him the most. (Based on our very limited information) If the 3-way balance is close enough, PT will be an amazing character for viewers, destined to be a crowd favorite. I actually don't care about fatigue, but it was unnecessary and encouraged stalling if they are unbalanced (like in Brawl), so why not just get rid of it?

----------

Whew, okay. But you asked about the end result of all of this. I think it depends on 3 unanswered questions:

1. Exactly how safe-on-shield do aerials become across the cast, with these landing lag changes?
2. How consistently can players (at various skill levels) parry moves, especially the aforementioned single hit spaced aerials?
3. What is the timer/mechanism by which dodge scaling resets?

I'm keeping an eye out specifically for great OoS nairs and promising tilts for dashes. But those 3 questions are pre-requisites for really starting to guess the neutral game lay of the land ahead of us.

(And then various things including the new air dodge affects what the advantage/disadvantage states will look like)

The thing is that if the tiebreaker was indeed the in-game sudden death, then it would give too big an advantage to the player losing. It could result in that player camping until it reaches sudden death.

Rage now starts at 120% (or at least is has any significant effect at that percent). As a result, even if it is still base, it has much less impact on the fight.

What do you mean "forced-neutral option"?

The grapplers do have at least a few follow-ups with up throw as before (especially DK's), but not as rewarding and no kill confirms. However, the jumpsquat change is a significant buff to them (especially Bowser).

PK Flash/Freeze is indeed returning. However, they gave significant buffs to PK Flash. PK Freeze, according to Lucas' character trailer, looks very similar to SSB4, but we will have wait and see.

According to Puff's character trailer, back air has less lag and up air has way less lag. We will have to wait and see for this one as well.

I consider Dr. Mario's new down air a direct improvement, as it gives him a new edgeguarding option, while the previous one didn't have too much to offer.

According to Wii Fit's character trailer, she seems to be able to act faster after canceling her Header.

I consider to side B buff to Mac a better buff than giving him Grounding Blow. New recovery options and improved safety.

Palutena and Bowser Jr. does seem underwhelming judging from the trailers alone, which is bad since both are already low tiered characters in SSB4. I consider the Cannonball change to be a buff, but whether it is actually useful or not remains to be seen

Duck Hunt's gunmen already works like a decent shield, so I don't think buffing it's defensive capabilities is necessary. Give the character better linking hitboxes on smash attacks and up air, and I think the character is good to go.

First hit of Bayo's fair no longer combos into ABK, so it does change quite a bit. Alongside the numerous nerfs Sakurai has already given to her, it is 100% guaranteed that he will fix the Triple Jump glitch, which will nerf both her combo game and (especially) recovery. However, if he nerfs her combo game further (such as her Witch Twist), then he could easily do it in a way that makes the character herself underwhelming, which is what I am afraid of.

Those are some things to point out. Nice post!

Alright time for a big question
What're some characters that you think could be top 10/15, if they were fully optimized or their potential was fully realized?

Probably Pkmn Trainer and Inklings. Ridley could be a possibility, but his large size and weight might hold him back from that.

 

[MERPIS]

The thing is that if the tiebreaker was indeed the in-game sudden death, then it would give too big an advantage to the player losing. It could result in that player camping until it reaches sudden death.

Rage now starts at 120% (or at least is has any significant effect at that percent). As a result, even if it is still base, it has much less impact on the fight.

What do you mean "forced-neutral option"?

The grapplers do have at least a few follow-ups with up throw as before (especially DK's), but not as rewarding and no kill confirms. However, the jumpsquat change is a significant buff to them (especially Bowser).

PK Flash/Freeze is indeed returning. However, they gave significant buffs to PK Flash. PK Freeze, according to Lucas' character trailer, looks very similar to SSB4, but we will have wait and see.

According to Puff's character trailer, back air has less lag and up air has way less lag. We will have to wait and see for this one as well.

I consider Dr. Mario's new down air a direct improvement, as it gives him a new edgeguarding option, while the previous one didn't have too much to offer.

According to Wii Fit's character trailer, she seems to be able to act faster after canceling her Header.

I consider to side B buff to Mac a better buff than giving him Grounding Blow. New recovery options and improved safety.

Palutena and Bowser Jr. does seem underwhelming judging from the trailers alone, which is bad since both are already low tiered characters in SSB4. I consider the Cannonball change to be a buff, but whether it is actually useful or not remains to be seen

Duck Hunt's gunmen already works like a decent shield, so I don't think buffing it's defensive capabilities is necessary. Give the character better linking hitboxes on smash attacks and up air, and I think the character is good to go.

First hit of Bayo's fair no longer combos into ABK, so it does change quite a bit. Alongside the numerous nerfs Sakurai has already given to her, it is 100% guaranteed that he will fix the Triple Jump glitch, which will nerf both her combo game and (especially) recovery. However, if he nerfs her combo game further (such as her Witch Twist), then he could easily do it in a way that makes the character herself underwhelming, which is what I am afraid of.

Those are some things to point out. Nice post!


Probably Pkmn Trainer and Inklings. Ridley could be a possibility, but his large size and weight might hold him back from that.

I kinda mean in SMASH 4

 

[The_Bookworm]

I kinda mean in SMASH 4

I don't really have an answer in that case. The meta is pretty much sealed, although Peach may barely reach top 15 considering the amount of results Samsora and Japanene Peach players bring to the table.

 

[Big O]

Something I've always wanted to see in smash is having supers (ie final smashes) being tied to the audience cheering for you. Now that final smashes have been normalized for the most part, it seems like something that could actually be a cool thing in competitive play. It was always hype to have the audience cheer for you in game, and having that power up your character seems so natural that it's a mystery why it was never implemented this way.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Alongside the numerous nerfs Sakurai has already given to her, it is 100% guaranteed that he will fix the Triple Jump glitch, which will nerf both her combo game and (especially) recovery.

Why would you assume that? It's not even entirely clear if it's a glitch! I think I've heard that she can do it in her original games, which would mean it is 100% intentional and will ABSOLUTELY NOT be removed.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Why would you assume that? It's not even entirely clear if it's a glitch! I think I've heard that she can do it in her original games, which would mean it is 100% intentional and will ABSOLUTELY NOT be removed.

Bayo can only double jump and then flutter with madama butterfly's wings after the second jump, no triple jumps in her games. Everything else about her smash incarnation is pretty accurate to her games with some liberties taken of course as is always the case with smash characters.

 

[MERPIS]

Everything else about her smash incarnation is pretty accurate to her games

lmao witch twist

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I have two questions.

1. What benefits does the increased damage in 1v1 give besides quicker matches?

2. Wasn't the port priority for grabs taken out of after melee and did it affect other parts of gameplay?

-

Regarding PK Flash and PK Freeze: PK Flash now travels farther, faster, and the speed for the projectile ascending and descending seems to have been increased from the footage available. Meanwhile PK Freeze now sends the opponent horizontally away from Lucas instead of sending them vertically to the top blast-zone. The direction the opponent is sent may be based on the direction Lucas faces when casting the move. If that is true, it may be easier to get stage spikes with said move.

 

[MERPIS]

1. What benefits does the increased damage in 1v1 give besides quicker matches?

absolutely nothing

 

[MarioManTAW]

Bayo can only double jump and then flutter with madama butterfly's wings after the second jump, no triple jumps in her games. Everything else about her smash incarnation is pretty accurate to her games with some liberties taken of course as is always the case with smash characters.

Even so, it may be intentional as designed to make recovery with tap jump easier.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Even so, it may be intentional as designed to make recovery with tap jump easier.

I don't see how it's intentional if it's literally only one character who gets it when she doesn't even need it to recover thanks to ABK covering horizontal distance with a hitbox and Witch twist covering vertical with a hitbox that's majority of the cast can't contest from above. Plus she has a wall cling to aid even further with vertical recovery. It's not something that feels intentional to me nor would I understand why she needs three full jumps. It's not like she's a character with more than two jumps but those jumps are smaller ones like Kirby, her third jump carries the same distance as her other two.

 

[Myollnir]

Bayonetta's so-called "triple" jump does not magically make her jump 3 times. It's just a slight extension of her UpBs' distance while retaining her DJ.
It is 100% intentional, as Bayonetta needs to double jump to gain her 2nd UpB, the character would be nigh unplayable with Tap Jump set to "on" if they didn't implement this.
Wall Cling is irrelevant, as it's only present on the stage she bans 95+% of the time (FD).
It's the only character who gets it because it's the only character that functions with 2 UpB. Also, stop using the "it's the only char who has it" argument, it makes you look really dumb, most Smash characters are unique, don't act like it'd be a good thing if every character was similar. In addition, saying stuff like "Bayo doesn't need triple jump" really screams "I've never played this character", but hey, that's Smashboards for you.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bayonetta's so-called "triple" jump does not magically make her jump 3 times. It's just a slight extension of her UpBs' distance while retaining her DJ.
It is 100% intentional, as Bayonetta needs to double jump to gain her 2nd UpB, the character would be nigh unplayable with Tap Jump set to "on" if they didn't implement this.
Wall Cling is irrelevant, as it's only present on the stage she bans 95+% of the time (FD).
It's the only character who gets it because it's the only character that functions with 2 UpB. Also, stop using the "it's the only char who has it" argument, it makes you look really dumb, most Smash characters are unique, don't act like it'd be a good thing if every character was similar. In addition, saying stuff like "Bayo doesn't need triple jump" really screams "I've never played this character", but hey, that's Smashboards for you.

Actually, you are the one misunderstanding mate. You are right though, that Triple Jump Glitch is a terrible and misleading name that also overstates the issue.

By design, Bayonetta is supposed to be able to go Up-B -> double jump -> Up-B. As you say, the game "forgives" a double jump immediately before the first Up-B, which tap jump would always cause.

This is NOT the "triple jump glitch" people are talking about.

The "glitch" is that the same forgiveness also applies to the SECOND Up-B; this means Bayo can Up-B -> Up-B -> double jump, which according to the rules shouldn't be allowed. Delaying double jump to the end is what let's Bayo land that final uair extra high, that makes low percent ladder kills possible.

THAT is what people are complaining about--not the mechanics working as intended, including the forgiveness on the first up-B.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually, you are the one misunderstanding mate. You are right though, that Triple Jump Glitch is a terrible and misleading name that also overstates the issue.

By design, Bayonetta is supposed to be able to go Up-B -> double jump -> Up-B. As you say, the game "forgives" a double jump immediately before the first Up-B, which tap jump would always cause.

This is NOT the "triple jump glitch" people are talking about.

The "glitch" is that the same forgiveness also applies to the SECOND Up-B; this means Bayo can Up-B -> Up-B -> double jump, which according to the rules shouldn't be allowed. Delaying double jump to the end is what let's Bayo land that final uair extra high, that makes low percent ladder kills possible.

THAT is what people are complaining about--not the mechanics working as intended, including the forgiveness on the first up-B.

What makes ladder kills possible is people not correctly judging where they are and which direction is a combo is less likely to kill to.
People usually get caught by Witch Twist mid-air and still DI up, pushing themselves closer to the blastzone and dying to the Special Moves themselves, no finisher aerial needed. I sometimes just don't get it.

It might be a more valid complain if Single-hit WTw>Single-hit WTw>jump Uair was more common, but so far Salem and Shu are the only ones I've seen that seem to be using it on purpose (maybe). That is the only instance where it makes a difference with little to no counterplay.


Anyway, back to the original point: After watching SSBU footage, I don't think it was a not intentional mechanic, simply because it was there AGAIN.
Though I guess it is possible that devs just never realised it was possible and its presence is but a product of a lazy copy-paste of her entire programming into the new engine.

 

[Myollnir]

Although your point is valid in theory, the players DO refer to the "triple jump glitch" even when talking about the first UpB.

Witch Twist 2 is the same move as WTw1, except for the final hit, which have a different knockback & angle. It would be extremely misleading if there was a mechanical disparity between both iterations of the move.
That could be changed so that it only works once, but that would be only for balance and wouldn't make sense from a mechanical perspective ; that's the kind of changes that developers don't like and they're rather weaken the rest of her kit, or get rid of the mechanic altogether.

With that being said, I have no idea which rule you are refering to. Bayonetta is the only character that functions with 2 different UpBs (not talking about the Ryu kind of difference, moreso about 2 UpBs in a row), so there is no comparison.

By the way, WTw2 -> U-air -> DJ U-air is only one of the ways you can get an early kill with Bayo's specials.
It's definitely not the only one, and I'm not even sure it happens more often than the Single Hit WTw, or the Middle Hit Kill (which relies heavily on rage and SDI).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bayonetta being able to jump after Up B 1 and Up B 2 is 100% intentionally coded into the game btw

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I wasn't thinking of how tap jump implication would mess up Bayo for using one Witch twist, to be fair I don't use tap jump so I forgot about that side effect and that does make sense for it to be a intended coded mechanic of hers. However trying to say that characters don't all generally follow the "rules" of smash isn't accurate.

Understandably not all Up B moves are primarily designed for recovery. Ones like Ryu's Shoryu or Pac's Trampoline are used a lot for their offensive and defensive capabilities, which is totally fine and sets them apart. They however like everyone else (unless your Rosalina which is another topic) are vulnerable after using these moves either in terms of cooldown, being stuck in a helpless state or are really limted in terms of what you can do after using the move. Bayonetta also uses her recovery move more so for its offensive capabilities and it's obviously a large part of her character and design and that's okay. Allowing her to retain jump after using up b so tap jump doesn't mess her up and ruin the way she was designed is understandable but it up to debate if this took it too far when you factor in all the other options this gives her after exhausting her special resources which is where I believe the "rule breaking" part comes into play. I'm well aware of the increased landing lag she suffers but is that enough of a balance with all the benefit of retaining her jump? At what point character individuality go too far? I think it's a questions worth looking into (not just referring to Bayo).

 

[Nobie]

Just wanted to say there is ALOT of great discussion going on.

Also I think footsies in Melee is a joke much like Vs series games.

HERP DERP LEMME JOCKEY FOR SPACE WITH MASSIVE HITBOXES THAT CONFIRM INTO MASSIVE DAMAGE FOR BARELY ANY RISK!!!

I think when some Melee folks talk about footsies and spacing, what they really mean is the ability to commit as little as possible to anything while still being extremely effective. What is a backwards wavedash if not the ability to back dash and throw out hitboxes at the same time?

The reason some get so down on Smash 4 is the degree you have to live with your bad choices.

 

[|RK|]

Bayonetta being able to jump after Up B 1 and Up B 2 is 100% intentionally coded into the game btw

Yeah, I hear you can actually do it in her games as well. So it's more of a "faithful to the source material" thing.

 

[Heracr055]

Two things:

1) Wolf nair changed to, essentially, Fox's nair. In the trailer you can see how Wolf performs a jab combo almost immediately after landing with nair. Seeing what Fox can do with Nair in Smash 4, I am excited about the combo trees that can form from this move.
2) Puff is going to be low mid at worst due to universal mechanics changes alone. The new mechanics deal with 2 of her greatest issues in Smash 4: air dodges and rage. Improved recoveries across the board, combined with free air dodges, took away Puff's ability to gimp and destroy with the Wall of Pain in Smash 4. Poor airdodge in the new game gives Puff the flexibility to bully more offstage and it's terrifying. And I don't need to explain Rage and Puff (I died to an uncharged USmash yesterday around 60% from some char who shouldn't be killing that early). With Rage's new floor in the 100+% range, Puff should be at less risk of dying at unreasonable percents. On top of all this, there are potential changes to her Bair (which is terrible due to startup and ending lag on the move in Smash 4) and uair (which has almost no endlag from the trailer). I have a feeling that Puff is going to be hated very, very much this entry and I LOVE IT.

Tldr: Wolf nair is cool and PUFF IS BACK.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yeah, I hear you can actually do it in her games as well. So it's more of a "faithful to the source material" thing.

If it is true, then Sakurai has made no mention of it at all, in any sources, let alone be intentional. It is almost like Sakurai never knew about it until the invitational. I don't really think it was created in order to be faithful to the source material, and is rather a coiencidence that this glitch is connected to something from her games.