Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MERPIS]

Oh, and what makes you any more right? Could you at least back up why you think that?

Skeet Skeet Yeet writing poetry over here LOL

 

[The_Bookworm]

Finally found Super Smash Fight Club 2's bracket!!! It is a C tier event that happened about a month ago.

1st: Zinoto
2nd: Elegant
3rd: Shadow_PR
4th: Whispy
5th: Kiki
5th: Manny
7th: Light the Lantern
7th: Trela
9th: Zael
9th: dyr
9th: Alxxne
9th: Hakii


Light the Lantern notably defeated dyr. Zinoto defeated Elegant 3-0 in winner's finals and 3-1 in grand finals to take the tournament.

 

[Illusion.]

Whispy plays , zael and Alxxne play , and Hakii plays (he dropped a long time ago).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Hakii plays (he dropped a long time ago).

Great, diversity is dying.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Great, diversity is dying.

Yep one player dropped a mid tier for a top tier, diversity is dead, not like a bottom tier just placed 17th at a major or anything.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yep one player dropped a mid tier for a top tier, diversity is dead, not like a bottom tier just placed 17th at a major or anything.

What was that?

 

[Nah]

What was that?

Hyrule Saga. Zaki placed 17th, apparently took a set off of MKLeo too.

not that a Dedede making a good placement one time means that character diversity isn't dead, nor does one player dropping a mid-tier for a top tier mean it is

but character diversity dying is a natural thingin a competitive game that's been around for years now with a clear distinction between who's legitimately viable and who's not

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Hyrule Saga. Zaki placed 17th, apparently took a set off of MKLeo too.

not that a Dedede making a good placement one time means that character diversity isn't dead, nor does one player dropping a mid-tier for a top tier mean it is

but character diversity dying is a natural thingin a competitive game that's been around for years now with a clear distinction between who's legitimately viable and who's not

Oh, don't try to tell me. I haven't been around here for weeks.

 

[Iridium]

Um, so at Smash Sounds, DKwill 2-0 SDX in pools. He is now guaranteed to make top 48, and he was not projected to even get there!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Um, so at Smash Sounds, DKwill 2-0 SDX in pools. He is now guaranteed to make top 48, and he was not projected to even get there!

What even is "Smash Sounds"? Since the PGR ends at CEO, there is no easy way of telling the notable tournaments (that would/could be PGR'ed if it continued) of each weekend.

Does any of you know a way of doing so?

 

[Iridium]

What even is "Smash Sounds"? Since the PGR ends at CEO, there is no easy way of telling the notable tournaments (that would/could be PGR'ed if it continued) of each weekend.

Does any of you know a way of doing so?

It is a 2GG-hosted event in NY. Yes, it is not PGR'ed, but it does have PGR ranked members, being Nairo, Dabuz, komorikiri, Abadango, Shuton, Kameme, Light, Marss, Mr E and 6WX, and many top NY players, like SDX. I just wanted to note this, for attendance is not that bad there, with 261 entrants. I guess it is in the same boat as VG Boot Camp when it comes to top players there, but you can watch it on 2GGaming's Twitch.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

A lot has happened this season.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is the schedule for the PGR Rankings for SSB4:
https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/1007322220719468545

And for those interested in the PGR Rankings for Melee:
https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/1014931922299088898

Does someone know how to expand these links as thumbnails for this comment?

 

[MarioManTAW]

This is the schedule for the PGR Rankings for SSB4:
https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/1007322220719468545

And for those interested in the PGR Rankings for Melee:
https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/1014931922299088898

Does someone know how to expand these links as thumbnails for this comment?

On the post menu, it's Insert [...]->Media.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Iridium]

At Smash Sounds, Shuton 3-2 Dabuz to make top 8! I cannot remember if Shuton has ever beaten him before, but this is something.

komorikri 3-2 Marss to make top 8. Marss probably did not like going ZSS against Cloud, so this happened.

 

[Lord Dio]

At Smash Sounds, Shuton 3-2 Dabuz to make top 8! I cannot remember if Shuton has ever beaten him before, but this is something.

komorikri 3-2 Marss to make top 8. Marss probably did not like going ZSS against Cloud, so this happened.

Yay, komo finally beat a falcon lol

 

[Iridium]

At Smash Sounds, Shuton 3-2 Dabuz to make top 8! I cannot remember if Shuton has ever beaten him before, but this is something.

komorikri 3-2 Marss to make top 8. Marss probably did not like going ZSS against Cloud, so this happened.

Also, Abadango 3-2 Light with a clutch comeback to make top 8! Light will face SDX in a runback for losers top 8.

Dabuz 3-2 Odyssey to make losers top 8.

6WX 3-1 Marss to make top 8, with a unique ladder combo finish! Marss is out at 9th.

Abadango 3-2 Nairo in winners semis to knock him into losers. That's two losses in a row to Aba.

Dabuz 3-0 Nairo to eliminate him at 5th. Unfortunate to see him go 0-2 in top 8.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Also, Abadango 3-2 Light with a clutch comeback to make top 8! Light will face SDX in a runback for losers top 8.

Dabuz 3-2 Odyssey to make losers top 8.

6WX 3-1 Marss to make top 8, with a unique ladder combo finish! Marss is out at 9th.

Abadango 3-2 Nairo in winners semis to knock him into losers. That's two losses in a row to Aba.

Dabuz 3-0 Nairo to eliminate him at 5th. Unfortunate to see him go 0-2 in top 8.

About Aba, why Mewtwo for Fox but Bayonetta for ZSS?

And since WHEN did Nairo decide to pick up a Corrin?

 

[The_Bookworm]

And since WHEN did Nairo decide to pick up a Corrin?

Nairo pretty much mains everyone. XD
He plays numerous different characters all the time in his streams, and he has cooked up a Corrin for quite a bit (especially from playing with Cosmos).

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Nairo pretty much mains everyone. XD
He plays numerous different characters all the time in his streams, and he has cooked up a Corrin for quite a bit (especially from playing with Cosmos).

Yep, if you've seen his stream you know he basically plays the whole cast.

 

[Thinkaman]

Slightly natural segue:

I think one of the worst aspects of MOBAs is character banning, an ancient relic from the early days of DotA1 when community-created characters were routinely broken, unbalanced, or designed with zero consideration for how they fit in with the game's vision. I think telling your opponent what characters they can't play is stupid if you don't know anything about them, and stupid in a very different way if you do.

Still, it's a very interesting thought experiment. What would Smash's competitive environment look like with a one-character ban? With three?

Sure, we'd end up with a lot of top level matches between fourth-best-mains, and those with broad pools would thrive, but beyond the obvious?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Still, it's a very interesting thought experiment. What would Smash's competitive environment look like with a one-character ban? With three?

Sure, we'd end up with a lot of top level matches between fourth-best-mains, and those with broad pools would thrive, but beyond the obvious?

I suspect we'd see much fewer character specialists. Why spend a lot of time practicing Duck Hunt if it'll just get banned all the time? Chances are many players would pick up a few good and easy top/high tiers, to either force a ban or have something good to fall back on (like Cloud and Mario). Solo mains would be a thing of the past. I suspect this would lead to more players flocking to top and high tiers overall and that mid tiers and low tiers would be left behind. Ironically enough, this could lead to less character diversity (although we'd probably see fewer Bayonettas). The metagame would probably be filled with characters like Mario, Mewtwo, Cloud, Fox, and Rosalina & Luma. Corrin would also be good, fairly easy to pick up and strong overall. It might be worth picking up a Bayonetta as a secondary just to scare people into forcing a ban on her (and if they don't, at least you'll have a good character to fall back on). Characters that are hard to play, like Sheik, Pikachu, and Ryu might also be left behind a bit.

Oh, I have a question: If I ban Marth, is Lucina banned too? If not, then dual-maining Marth/Lucina would be incredibly strong and likely incredibly popular, espeically in a 1 ban environment. Pit/Dark Pit would be a bit better too, I suppose.

 

[C0rvus]

If Smash had character bans, then you'd never be able to play your best character(s) unless your opponent doesn't know you at all. It doesn't make sense in fighting games, or really anything that isn't team-based with a big roster. You may see players opting to main a certain archetype of character that suits their style, like how someone would main Support class units. For example, someone who enjoys projectile zoning might learn Toon Link, Villager, R.O.B, Wii Fit Trainer, Lucas, etc.

Really though, it's such a blatantly bad idea that I'd rather not dwell on it too hard. Think of the pace that the game/meta would develop. It may work in favor of some bad characters who don't see much play at high level, but overall things would slow down. Now that the game is on its way out, bans may not be the worst thing ever; most people can competently play half the roster or more. It would just be a silly handicap. No thank you.

 

[Thinkaman]

To reiterate, I think this is bad in MOBAs and worse in fighting games.

And yeah, you'd have fewer specialized characters in the meta, including . Why bother investing in all of Bayo's character-specific tools if she can be banned against you? You'd probably see a lot more picks or bans, since he's so safe and easy to pick up. Probably more , as I think those are the strong characters with the most transferable skills. (And Ness probably breaks back into a firm high tier if he can ban Rosalina and such. probably benefits disproportionately as well.)

is a mixed bag, since it is ruinous to Mac mains to let people ban a character that demands so much specific work, but Mac would benefit more than probably anyone from getting the option to strike bad matchups, play less-mechanically-well-practiced opponents, and people being less focused on optimizing stage select against him.

On a community level, we'd have people obfuscating who they play on social media, including people motivated to restrict stream and VOD footage. It would be incredibly obnoxious.

The upside would be that, just like with MOBAs, the casters and audience would have endless "who is picking what?!?" material to talk about.



Edit:
I think this could potentially be a good sub-event, a gimmick tourney in close comparison with a low-tier event or an Arcadian. Low-tier tourneys and Arcadians are, by design, built around a fundamentally awful premise for a main event. (Imagine EVO if half the roster was banned, or the PGR was forbidden from attending.) But both are a great way to mix up the narrative and draw attention to more characters/players, and a character ban gimmick event would do that as well.

(Additionally, if it's just a subevent, you don't have any of the ugly issues associated with mass community deception. No one is going to take all their VODs down to gain an advantage at a side tourney.)

Edit 2:
You could also do an Arcadian-specific character ban event. It's like an Arcadian, but instead of ranked players being banned, their opponents get to ban 1, 2, or 3 characters based on their rank. Or they name 3 characters, and you have to play one of those. (great way to make people hate Miis even more...)

 

[Lord Dio]

You could also do an Arcadian-specific character ban event. It's like an Arcadian, but instead of ranked players being banned, their opponents get to ban 1, 2, or 3 characters based on their rank. Or they name 3 characters, and you have to play one of those. (great way to make people hate Miis even more...)

Excuse me, but I would like to harp on this, as I personally feel those two would be disastrous.
The first, the arcadian, being able to ban more based on rank, would naturally be disadvantageous based on your rank. Ideally, less skilled players would get more bans, but this would be awful for low-level play, where you have people trying to learn someone, only to get them and the 2 people most similar to them banned. Not to mention playing someone you don't know, so you have no clue who to ban.
If you reverse it, giving top players more bans is just plain dumb, it makes it even harder to beat them.

The second is, imo, even more problematic. At a low level, you likely have no idea who your opponent pays, and you both just name off three random characters, and neither of you play any of them, and it becomes a nightmare. Even moreso if someone is lucky enough to have someone they play be named.
At a top level, this idea absolutely murders character specialists because you know your opponent will never let you play the three you're best with.
In essence, this idea is like a series of random dittos.

EDIT: didn't see you say side event, yeah, it'd be great for side events, but definitely not a main event.

 

[Thinkaman]

Excuse me, but I would like to harp on this, as I personally feel those two would be disastrous.
The first, the arcadian, being able to ban more based on rank, would naturally be disadvantageous based on your rank. Ideally, less skilled players would get more bans, but this would be awful for low-level play, where you have people trying to learn someone, only to get them and the 2 people most similar to them banned. Not to mention playing someone you don't know, so you have no clue who to ban.
If you reverse it, giving top players more bans is just plain dumb, it makes it even harder to beat them.

The second is, imo, even more problematic. At a low level, you likely have no idea who your opponent pays, and you both just name off three random characters, and neither of you play any of them, and it becomes a nightmare. Even moreso if someone is lucky enough to have someone they play be named.
At a top level, this idea absolutely murders character specialists because you know your opponent will never let you play the three you're best with.
In essence, this idea is like a series of random dittos.

EDIT: didn't see you say side event, yeah, it'd be great for side events, but definitely not a main event.

I feel like you got what I was saying backwards. I'm going to give a slow walkthrough--sorry if it ends up sounding condescending, I'm just gonna try to be crystal clear.

An Arcadian is a tournament where local PR ranked players above a certain level (like top 10) are banned. They have proven to be a very popular and effective way of getting new players into the scene, as well as lapsed players to return or not get burnt out. It's exciting to have a tourney where all the normal expectations go out the window and all the faces are fresh!

My "Arcadian Lite" brainstorm is a middle ground. It's a tournament where the top players aren't entirely banned, but everyone gets character bans against them. (Based on rank.)

Most players can play whoever the hell they want, naturally.

But that best-ZSS-in-your-city who is ranked #8? They can still compete, but everyone can ban 1 character against them (ZSS) and they will have to compete with their second-best-character--a handicap.

And that #4 ranked Rosalina can't use Rosalina, nor their pocket Cloud.

And that #1 player who plays Diddy won't be allowed to use Diddy, nor their second-best or even third-best. Big handicap.

Newer players might have no idea who to ban, but you'd be surprised how easy word gets out. "That's ESAM, he's one of the best Pikachus in the world. His Samus is good too." We're talking about the PR leaders, everyone knows who they play, and you can look it up in 5 seconds if you don't.

Top players would be likely to still win, but you never know--maybe that rank #11 hidden boss will at least be able to beat the PR's secondaries.

And even if we still end up with #1 vs #2 in grand finals, viewers would still get an unusual spectacle because they still get bans against each other--you have a grand finals of top players playing their fourth-best characters. This would be awful if you did it every week, but it's great fun as a novelty. (2GG does this sort of thing all the time, like a "Shulk only" bracket.)


Edit:
As a point of comparison, let me offer a different, BAD compromise:
The "Arcadian Lite: Awful Edition" lets top players compete, but they have a 1-stock handicap in all games.

So, it's literally the exact same. In a normal tourney, Nairo 2-stocks you. In this tourney, Nairo still 2-stocks you.

Even if you did beat Nairo with this handicap, you probably wouldn't feel like you won. You just... managed to not get 2-stocked. Woo, what a victory.

It's the exact same experience for players and the audience, especially if the top players overcome and make it to finals anyway. Exactly the same as usual.



You could amend my original proposal to be faster, more newb-friendly, and a deeper handicap by having a larger number of character bans decided before hand by a council, such as the PR itself with approval of the TO.

So, if Nairo is #1, maybe all the PR players vote on which 10 characters he can't play at this event. And if Marss is #2, they vote on which 9 characters he can't play, ect.

This simplifies things by doing it in advance, but removes some discretion from the individual. In Brawl, the first way was probably better. In the less polarized Smash 4, this pre-compiled way is probably smoother and preferable.

 

[Lord Dio]

I feel like you got what I was saying backwards. I'm going to give a slow walkthrough--sorry if it ends up sounding condescending, I'm just gonna try to be crystal clear.

An Arcadian is a tournament where local PR ranked players above a certain level (like top 10) are banned. They have proven to be a very popular and effective way of getting new players into the scene, as well as lapsed players to return or not get burnt out. It's exciting to have a tourney where all the normal expectations go out the window and all the faces are fresh!

My "Arcadian Lite" brainstorm is a middle ground. It's a tournament where the top players aren't entirely banned, but everyone gets character bans against them. (Based on rank.)

Most players can play whoever the hell they want, naturally.

But that best-ZSS-in-your-city who is ranked #8? They can still compete, but everyone can ban 1 character against them (ZSS) and they will have to compete with their second-best-character--a handicap.

And that #4 ranked Rosalina can't use Rosalina, nor their pocket Cloud.

And that #1 player who plays Diddy won't be allowed to use Diddy, nor their second-best or even third-best. Big handicap.

Newer players might have no idea who to ban, but you'd be surprised how easy word gets out. "That's ESAM, he's one of the best Pikachus in the world. His Samus is good too." We're talking about the PR leaders, everyone knows who they play, and you can look it up in 5 seconds if you don't.

Top players would be likely to still win, but you never know--maybe that rank #11 hidden boss will at least be able to beat the PR's secondaries.

And even if we still end up with #1 vs #2 in grand finals, viewers would still get an unusual spectacle because they still get bans against each other--you have a grand finals of top players playing their fourth-best characters. This would be awful if you did it every week, but it's great fun as a novelty. (2GG does this sort of thing all the time, like a "Shulk only" bracket.)


Edit:
As a point of comparison, let me offer a different, BAD compromise:
The "Arcadian Lite: Awful Edition" lets top players compete, but they have a 1-stock handicap in all games.

So, it's literally the exact same. In a normal tourney, Nairo 2-stocks you. In this tourney, Nairo still 2-stocks you.

Even if you did beat Nairo with this handicap, you probably wouldn't feel like you won. You just... managed to not get 2-stocked. Woo, what a victory.

It's the exact same experience for players and the audience, especially if the top players overcome and make it to finals anyway. Exactly the same as usual.



You could amend my original proposal to be faster, more newb-friendly, and a deeper handicap by having a larger number of character bans decided before hand by a council, such as the PR itself with approval of the TO.

So, if Nairo is #1, maybe all the PR players vote on which 10 characters he can't play at this event. And if Marss is #2, they vote on which 9 characters he can't play, ect.

This simplifies things by doing it in advance, but removes some discretion from the individual. In Brawl, the first way was probably better. In the less polarized Smash 4, this pre-compiled way is probably smoother and preferable.

AHHHHHH, ok.
See, I was thinking you were saying that everyone gets bans against everyone, when you were trying to say everyone gets bans against top players. That makes much more sense now.

 

[Thinkaman]

Imo the primary utility of this idea is a decent excuse to host more "Arcadians", when just doing another standard Arcadian would overstay its welcome.

Also, the easiest way to run the character banning is "The top 10 players, plus the TO or event leader, strike a character of every player ranked above them; they do this in ascending order."

So, the TO strikes everyone's mains. Then the #10 player gets to strike one more character (each) from #1-9. Then #9 gets to strike for #1-8... ending with #2 making the final, 10th strike against #1. This order is fastest and most interesting; letting the TO goes first minimizes possibility of collusion, and letting the top players strike last most ensures the latter bans are informed and not random.

This is a procedure that is easy to do live, and would be a rather dramatic ceremony. Commentators would love it.

 

[Nobie]

So I was thinking about Ryu in Smash Ultimate, and about his "always facing the opponent" Street Fighter mechanic.

As discussed before, it provides him opportunities that no other character has, simply because others have to use pivot moves or aerials to attack while retreating.

But there's something about Smash mechanics combined with SF walking that makes me think Ryu's footsies are going to be even more dangerous: Ryu isn't forced to block when he holds back.

In SF games, if the opponent is doing nothing while you hold back, you walk backwards. If they're attacking, you automatically enter a guard state. In Smash, because shielding is done with a button, Ryu can keep walking backwards no matter the attack. This means, potentially, he can whiff punish things he normally wouldn't be able to in Street Fighter.

Of course, being a platform fighter, and a game full of guys and gals with swords, there are things that might not be easily punishable in footsies anyway. But then I keep imagining a simple scenario where someone throws out a giant transcendent hitbox that barely whiffs because Ryu's walking back. He can't punish with a normal...so he smoothly transitions his step back into Shakunetsu Hadouken for some free damage.

 

[Minordeth]

Imo the primary utility of this idea is a decent excuse to host more "Arcadians", when just doing another standard Arcadian would overstay its welcome.

Also, the easiest way to run the character banning is "The top 10 players, plus the TO or event leader, strike a character of every player ranked above them; they do this in ascending order."

So, the TO strikes everyone's mains. Then the #10 player gets to strike one more character (each) from #1-9. Then #9 gets to strike for #1-8... ending with #2 making the final, 10th strike against #1. This order is fastest and most interesting; letting the TO goes first minimizes possibility of collusion, and letting the top players strike last most ensures the latter bans are informed and not random.

This is a procedure that is easy to do live, and would be a rather dramatic ceremony. Commentators would love it.

I really like this idea, actually. I’d probably support it over traditional Arcadians, but this may just be a knee jerk reaction.

The main advantage over the traditional Arcadian is that newer players get exposed to higher level play earlier but with a reduction in the effective skill gap. In larger scenes that can support a B league, like SoCal, the transition from casual to fully competitive player seems relatively gradual. In smaller scenes, you may go to your first tournament and get seeded against a top 10 player for your first or second match. If they go their main, your chance of even taking a stock may be pretty low.

The Arcadian Lite seems to balance out exposure with an increased sense of the chance of success. I think the latter would go a long way to keeping less masochistic newer players coming back.* Of course, high level exposure is necessary for growth, but if you lose a whole set in 4 minutes, your ability to analyze what the hell happened is a bit diminished.



*in my first local in probably 15 years, my second match was against a top 5-10 PR’d player and I got smoked because what is Kirby, even? Of course, I got seeded against him again early on in my next local. And I still went back because pain is fun apparently. And then I picked up a completely new main, because I hate myself.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

You make the idea sounds nice for community growth and commentators, but I still do not like bans in general for reasons already stated. In a way it feels too much like esports or trying to become something that we are not.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

So I was thinking about Ryu in Smash Ultimate, and about his "always facing the opponent" Street Fighter mechanic.

As discussed before, it provides him opportunities that no other character has, simply because others have to use pivot moves or aerials to attack while retreating.

But there's something about Smash mechanics combined with SF walking that makes me think Ryu's footsies are going to be even more dangerous: Ryu isn't forced to block when he holds back.

In SF games, if the opponent is doing nothing while you hold back, you walk backwards. If they're attacking, you automatically enter a guard state. In Smash, because shielding is done with a button, Ryu can keep walking backwards no matter the attack. This means, potentially, he can whiff punish things he normally wouldn't be able to in Street Fighter.

Of course, being a platform fighter, and a game full of guys and gals with swords, there are things that might not be easily punishable in footsies anyway. But then I keep imagining a simple scenario where someone throws out a giant transcendent hitbox that barely whiffs because Ryu's walking back. He can't punish with a normal...so he smoothly transitions his step back into Shakunetsu Hadouken for some free damage.

Crossing up Ryu will be harder too because he automatically faces his opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So I was thinking about Ryu in Smash Ultimate, and about his "always facing the opponent" Street Fighter mechanic.

As discussed before, it provides him opportunities that no other character has, simply because others have to use pivot moves or aerials to attack while retreating.

But there's something about Smash mechanics combined with SF walking that makes me think Ryu's footsies are going to be even more dangerous: Ryu isn't forced to block when he holds back.

In SF games, if the opponent is doing nothing while you hold back, you walk backwards. If they're attacking, you automatically enter a guard state. In Smash, because shielding is done with a button, Ryu can keep walking backwards no matter the attack. This means, potentially, he can whiff punish things he normally wouldn't be able to in Street Fighter.

Of course, being a platform fighter, and a game full of guys and gals with swords, there are things that might not be easily punishable in footsies anyway. But then I keep imagining a simple scenario where someone throws out a giant transcendent hitbox that barely whiffs because Ryu's walking back. He can't punish with a normal...so he smoothly transitions his step back into Shakunetsu Hadouken for some free damage.

LET RYU LIVE

 

[Iridium]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10EQhtgsBYPMPzb6iTT-50I0Oo2CVfPavXUlAH0AR5Zo/htmlview

Here is the entry list for Umebura 33! I know SSBU has taken over this thread, but this event is still noticeably stacked, so I think maybe people will show some interest.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Here is the entry list for Umebura 33! I know SSBU has taken over this thread, but this event is still noticeably stacked, so I think maybe people will show some interest.

the reason SSBU has taken over this thread is that there aren't any major tournaments going on right now

 

[Heracr055]

So I was thinking about Ryu in Smash Ultimate, and about his "always facing the opponent" Street Fighter mechanic.

As discussed before, it provides him opportunities that no other character has, simply because others have to use pivot moves or aerials to attack while retreating.

But there's something about Smash mechanics combined with SF walking that makes me think Ryu's footsies are going to be even more dangerous: Ryu isn't forced to block when he holds back.

In SF games, if the opponent is doing nothing while you hold back, you walk backwards. If they're attacking, you automatically enter a guard state. In Smash, because shielding is done with a button, Ryu can keep walking backwards no matter the attack. This means, potentially, he can whiff punish things he normally wouldn't be able to in Street Fighter.

Of course, being a platform fighter, and a game full of guys and gals with swords, there are things that might not be easily punishable in footsies anyway. But then I keep imagining a simple scenario where someone throws out a giant transcendent hitbox that barely whiffs because Ryu's walking back. He can't punish with a normal...so he smoothly transitions his step back into Shakunetsu Hadouken for some free damage.

Ryu has to get in eventually since the Hado/Shaku won't finish the job. What is of interest is that, thanks to dash to normals being a thing, Ryu will be even more threatening with his kill confirm off of up/dtilt. We'll see if he can punish with normals what he usually couldn't thanks to the walk backward mechanic combined with this (such as drift forward+retreat drift Marth/Ness fair).

 

[Minordeth]

LET RYU LIVE

Nintendo tryin to give Ryu mains hope by leaving Rosa out of the demo.

 

[|RK|]

Speaking of Ryu

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Iridium]

the reason SSBY has taken over this thread is that there aren't any major tournaments going on right now

Yeah, I know, but suar said himself that future events will count for something. If I sound harsh, I just mean to say SSB4 should not die off in discussion yet.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Yeah, I know, but suar said himself that future events will count for something. If I sound harsh, I just mean to say SSB4 should not die off in discussion yet.

the entrants also haven't been released for Evo smash con and shine so also there's that

there isn't really much to talk about anymore when it comes to smash 4 it has been this way for a while the metagame has developed the game is almost 4 years old this happens with most fighting games and with smash ultimate coming out most people are turning there attention to that game