Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MercuryPenny]

i honestly think there's still plenty of room for the game to develop, but no-one's bothering because "just wait for ultimate bro xD" is such a dominant mindset rn

 

[The_Bookworm]

Speaking of Ryu

I have no words. see you poor souls in ultimate. pic.twitter.com/7qSYtx6JSJ

— Darkshad 天 (@Darkshadlegend) July 12, 2018

This character is going to be scary when the game releases.

 

[Ordeaux26]

i honestly think there's still plenty of room for the game to develop, but no-one's bothering because "just wait for ultimate bro xD" is such a dominant mindset rn

what kind of stuff do you think can develop can you be more specific

 

[TDK]

Dabuz posted his thoughts on most every demo character in a google doc here, it's worth a read:

After 4 hours of work, here is doc listing my thoughts on most of the smash ultimate demo cast. Note these categories are impressions and theory, NOT a tier list. There are typos, I did not have time to edit. Finally, remember, OPINIONS OPINIONS OPINIONShttps://t.co/l195NqpKhV

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) July 13, 2018

EDIT: How does Ryu always face forwards help him deal with his weaknesses, assuming they were all kept the same? (Poor mobility, weakness to being juggled, difficulty catching people). It seems like they're making him stronger without addressing his issues.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His mobility is directly linked to his home game.

His true issue was a lack of cohesion between his neutral and his win condition.

System changes alone amend that.

 

[Nobie]

According to Dabuz, Marth can sh double fair again.

It almost feels like a letter to the Melee and Brawl players who left Marth. Wonder if Mr. R will go back to his sword boy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

Emperor of Altea coming to take over countries and add to his army.

 

[Yonder]

Speaking of Ryu

I have no words. see you poor souls in ultimate. pic.twitter.com/7qSYtx6JSJ

— Darkshad 天 (@Darkshadlegend) July 12, 2018

In reality what's going to happen is that while Nintendo targets characters that displays attributes of possible overpoweredness, some character not in the demo is gonna slip by the sensors and dominate the scene.

Watch it be Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Ordeaux26]

In reality what's going to happen is that while Nintendo targets characters that displays attributes of possible overpoweredness, some character not in the demo is gonna slip by the sensors and dominate the scene.

Watch it be Wii Fit Trainer.

if that happens Nintendo could just patch them

 

[|RK|]

Dabuz's thoughts on Kirby are more or less in line with my own. It's really hard to rate him right now because his buffs would be kind of meh in Smash 4. His recovery would be fixed some, a bit more kill power, etc...

But the reason he seems so same-y is that his buffs come from the system. I wrote a huge post about it on the Ultimate Kirby boards, but basically... Most of his improvements come from the system weakening things he struggled with and enhancing his own abilities.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

With moves being able to be paried, it's a nerf to moves like Jr and Fox's dairs because they'll be even less safe on shield especially Jr's. I speculate that Jr's best option out of a dash will be jab 1 because it's his fastest grounded move.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/tou...attle-royale-3-overclocked-3-and-more.456551/

There's actually a lot of tournaments happening this weekend. Enough to warrant a thread for them. Let's discuss them all here.

 

[Ordeaux26]

https://smashboards.com/threads/tou...attle-royale-3-overclocked-3-and-more.456551/

There's actually a lot of tournaments happening this weekend. Enough to warrant a thread for them. Let's discuss them all here.

There is also a pretty big tournament going on in my region shinespiked

 

[The_Bookworm]

Dabuz posted his thoughts on most every demo character in a google doc here, it's worth a read:

After 4 hours of work, here is doc listing my thoughts on most of the smash ultimate demo cast. Note these categories are impressions and theory, NOT a tier list. There are typos, I did not have time to edit. Finally, remember, OPINIONS OPINIONS OPINIONShttps://t.co/l195NqpKhV

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) July 13, 2018

EDIT: How does Ryu always face forwards help him deal with his weaknesses, assuming they were all kept the same? (Poor mobility, weakness to being juggled, difficulty catching people). It seems like they're making him stronger without addressing his issues.

DaNotes is back.

It should be noted that Bowser's jumpsquat is now frame 3 like the rest of the cast. This pretty much alleviates one of Bowser's biggest weaknesses throughout the series.

 

[Aaron1997]

Smash Ultimate introduces a new damage multiplier of 0.85x applied when you use aerials on a short hop. It seems to work like the 1v1 multiplier regarding KB

Thanks to @Meshima_ for finding out the multiplier and opening the discussion on KH discord

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 16, 2018

Note: the multiplier is applied at any moment after doing a short hop (like falling off stage then doing an aerial), it's not applied if you use an aerial jump and then use an aerial

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 16, 2018

Means that SH Aerial's will be less damage. It stack's with the 1V1 Mutiplier. Math is (1.2 * 0.85 = 1.02) still more damage

This was probably done to make sure some Aerial's don't become ridiculous in 1V1's. Along with move's staling on sheild, this a big nerf to character's that like to space aerial's on sheild.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm... sort of okay with that? It really seems like Ultimate's meta is going to move towards edgeguarding in a big way as opposed to throwing out errant aerials in hopes to take stocks. I don't entirely know how to feel about it yet until I see it in action more, a lot of it is going to come down to how the KB changes too.

 

[Minordeth]

Smash Ultimate introduces a new damage multiplier of 0.85x applied when you use aerials on a short hop. It seems to work like the 1v1 multiplier regarding KB

Thanks to @Meshima_ for finding out the multiplier and opening the discussion on KH discord

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 16, 2018

Note: the multiplier is applied at any moment after doing a short hop (like falling off stage then doing an aerial), it's not applied if you use an aerial jump and then use an aerial

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 16, 2018

Means that SH Aerial's will be less damage. It stack's with the 1V1 Mutiplier. Math is (1.2 * 0.85 = 1.02) still more damage

This was probably done to make sure some Aerial's don't become ridiculous in 1V1's. Along with move's staling on sheild, this a big nerf to character's that like to space aerial's on sheild.

Ehhh, I’m not convinced it necessarily means that. We don’t know what else has changed to underlying systems, like shield stun. This is likely a compensation for reduced landing lag across the board.

I mean, we already know Marth can do two Fairs out of SH. And with less KB on SH aerials, combo potential may compensate for the reduced damage output.

This also doesn’t apply to full hop aerials, sooo...

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

The change helps so that characters especially characters with strong large hitboxes (Cloud/Bayo Bair) are further discouraged from spamming them on shield when you factor in the increased damage outputs across the board which affects knockback. It also helps with combos especially for weaker moves designed to combo (Ness Fair) not get completed ruined by the increased damage output overall. I don't think it's going to have a large detrimental effect since it's just a .02x multipler but it's should be noticeable

 

[NotLiquid]

Cloud now loses a chunk of Limit charge if he's hit while charging Down B. https://t.co/4lQDHQmVRy

— Virum (Old Profile) (@Virum_SD) July 17, 2018

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cloud now loses a chunk of Limit charge if he's hit while charging Down B. https://t.co/4lQDHQmVRy

— Virum (Old Profile) (@Virum_SD) July 17, 2018

At least the nerfs are only restrictions to how far he can use his moveset.

Still, the nerfs just keep coming.

 

[ARISTOS]

Smash Ultimate introduces a new damage multiplier of 0.85x applied when you use aerials on a short hop. It seems to work like the 1v1 multiplier regarding KB

Thanks to @Meshima_ for finding out the multiplier and opening the discussion on KH discord

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 16, 2018

Note: the multiplier is applied at any moment after doing a short hop (like falling off stage then doing an aerial), it's not applied if you use an aerial jump and then use an aerial

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 16, 2018

Means that SH Aerial's will be less damage. It stack's with the 1V1 Mutiplier. Math is (1.2 * 0.85 = 1.02) still more damage

This was probably done to make sure some Aerial's don't become ridiculous in 1V1's. Along with move's staling on sheild, this a big nerf to character's that like to space aerial's on sheild.

Aerials could still be strong on shield (we don't know the impact of shield stun yet).

Overall Ultimate seems to really want grounded options to be much stronger than they have in the past. A lot of bad Smash 4 characters will heavily benefit from this as a lot of them had weak aerials and good grounded moves but no way to easily incorporate them into their playstyle.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

I mean, we already know Marth can do two Fairs out of SH.

Actually, this was a misconception. Mr. R himself confirmed on Twitter that this isn't possible and I also still haven't seen any videos of it actually being done. Dabuz said he must have remembered/heard/saw wrong. Also this tweet correcting a few mistakes he made in his doc:

Note, Marth cannot SH double fair, oops.

Ryu's level 1 focus can never crumple thing has always been that way.

Sonic's aerials got buffed but so did everyone else's which is a big part of why I think he's nerfed in comparison.

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) July 15, 2018

 

[Thinkaman]

There is now a dedicated place for "Pre-Competitive" Smash Ulti analysis and discussion.

 

[Das Koopa]

quick post for June stuff, need to be updating OrionRank stuff and I'm a lil behind on this

JUNE DATA WRITE-UP

Monthly character movements:

Sheik +1.7%
Sonic +1.1%
Meta Knight +0.8%
Duck Hunt +0.7%
Mega Man +0.5%
Fox +0.4%
Corrin +0.4%
Marth +0.3%
Bayonetta +0.2%
Luigi +0.1%
Pikachu +0.1%
Lucina +0.1%
Lucas +0.1%
Rosalina & Luma +0.1%
Donkey Kong = 1.5%
Toon Link = 1.4%
Mario -0.1%
Olimar -0.1%
Cloud -0.2%
Ryu -0.2%
Mewtwo -0.3%
Bowser -0.3%
Mr. Game & Watch -0.3%
Captain Falcon -0.4%
ZeroSuit Samus -0.5%
Peach -0.6%
Wario -0.6%
Shulk -0.7%
Ness -0.7%
Diddy Kong -1%

Spoiler: Full Results, June 2018

Bayonetta: 492
Cloud: 374.25
Diddy Kong: 283.25
Sheik: 264.25
Fox: 216.5
Zero Suit Samus: 199.25
Rosalina & Luma: 194.5
Sonic: 185.25
Mario: 157.25
Mewtwo: 141.5
Ryu: 123.5
Meta Knight: 116.5
Marth: 104.75
Peach: 91.5
Luigi: 89.5
Corrin: 85.5
Pikachu: 80.5
Captain Falcon: 73.25
Donkey Kong: 60.5
Mega Man: 60.5
Toon Link: 60
Ness: 58.5
Olimar: 52.5
Duck Hunt: 48
Wario: 39.5
Lucas: 39.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 39.5
Shulk: 39
Lucina: 38.5
R.O.B.: 31.75
Bowser: 30.75
Greninja: 27
Roy: 27
Samus: 23.5
Villager: 22
Robin: 20
Little Mac: 18
Pac-Man: 18
Link: 17
Yoshi: 15
Ganondorf: 15
Bowser Jr.: 14
King Dedede: 13.75
Charizard: 12.25
Lucario: 12
Kirby: 6
Wii Fit Trainer: 5.5
Jigglypuff: 5.5
Palutena: 5
Ike: 5
Pit: 3
Zelda: 3
Falco: 1.5
Mii Brawler: 1
Mii Gunner: 1

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jks0EtmeNemKsm2rXzYf8RB3D43-Ru23ypx_DOnQPDY/edit?usp=sharing

Previous Months: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.452108/page-146#post-22140299

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cool to see Mega Man that high up.

It is also interesting to see Ganon's results still exceeding Dedede's results for this month, despite Zaki's efforts. Then again, Ganon is more common and also got a strong Hyrule Saga weekend, such as Pon upsetting Ally at Triforce Friday, and Rickles getting 49th (far exceeding Ganon's expected seeding) at Hyrule Saga while defeating K9, while other Ganon players got higher than their expected seeding at the same time.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Its good to see the top player's thoughts on ultimate and it's mechanics so far.

 

[Iridium]

Cool to see Mega Man that high up.

It is also interesting to see Ganon's results still exceeding Dedede's results for this month, despite Zaki's efforts. Then again, Ganon is more common and also got a strong Hyrule Saga weekend, such as Pon upsetting Ally at Triforce Friday, and Rickles getting 49th (far exceeding Ganon's expected seeding) at Hyrule Saga while defeating K9, while other Ganon players got higher than their expected seeding at the same time.

I really wonder how much Hyrule Saga would have helped specific characters. T barely missed top 32 by a game 5 loss, as well as Sigma and yeti, while 3xA also placed the same. T did alright, but a PGR win on Tyroy would have meant something. His best win at Triforce Friday/Hyrule Saga was Ally himself, then Kameme.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Cool to see Mega Man that high up.

This doesn't apply to that June Results Chart because this happened like 3 days ago, but Loading recently got 5th at Albion 3 out of 266 entrants w/ Solo MegaMan and Yeti got 9th out of 175 entrants at Showdown Battle Royale 3 which is pretty hype. Their playstyles were refreshing to see. Both of them need to travel more though, fr.

On a side note, as expected, Greninja is as low as ever because Somé, Lea, Elexiao, iStudying, Venia, etc don't travel to the super large US Majors and haven't done so in a long time. In fact, most of the notable Greninja players barely travel to their OWN region's larger tournaments. I'm so sad lmao. (Shoutouts to Stroder representin tho!)

 

[Thinkaman]

I was really impressed with Cloudy's Roy at SF7 doubles GF yesterday. Sure, it's sort of a function of double Cloud being banned, but it was very obviously effective.

Roy has a worse neutral than Marthcina, but some wicked punish options that really show in doubles. Bair, dash attack, and u-smash are all very scary things to be thrown into or recovering around, and F-smash is a nearly Ganon-tier read punish (or shield break punish) attached to a character with a run speed conducive to doubles.

He's probably more similar to Cloud than any other character. With significant Cloud nerfs, a lot to gain from options out of a fast dash, and potentially attractive SH aerials with just a little less lag, Roy could be a sleeper hit of the Ulti characters we haven't seen yet.

 

[Iridium]

Hey guys, the PGR reveals are in a few days, right? Just wondering here.

 

[Lord Dio]

Hey guys, the PGR reveals are in a few days, right? Just wondering here.

They start in 3 days, yes.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash Factor 7 (308 Entrants) (Mexico)

1st: ANTi
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Fatality
4th: Wonf
5th: NAKAT
5th: Nery
7th: QROG
7th: Bedgar
9th: Chag
9th: Rox
9th: Yei
9th: Klein
13th: Sou
13th: Genialo
13th: Javi
13th: ByranZZ

 

[Iridium]

Smash Factor 7 (308 Entrants) (Mexico)

1st: ANTi
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Fatality
4th: Wonf
5th: NAKAT
5th: Nery
7th: QROG
7th: Bedgar
9th: Chag
9th: Rox
9th: Yei
9th: Klein
13th: Sou
13th: Genialo
13th: Javi
13th: ByranZZ

Yei also won a game with against ANTi's . Also, do you know what happened to Mekos? I heard he got 49th, but I don't know what his losses were.

 

[Jaguar360]

Yei also won a game with against ANTi's . Also, do you know what happened to Mekos? I heard he got 49th, but I don't know what his losses were.

Mekos lost to FCQ (strong player from Monterrey, but they don't have a power ranking to my knowledge so it's hard to tell exactly how strong in his region he is) and Kadez (best player in Saltillo, which Nery, Genialo, Daimy and Ang are also from). Also worth noting Hyuga lost to Nery and FuerzaDON for 49th and Waymas lost to Jasshy and Javi for 65th.

Top 64 and bracket's in the Tournament Tracker thread.

 

[Iridium]

Mekos lost to FCQ (strong player from Monterrey, but they don't have a power ranking to my knowledge so it's hard to tell exactly how strong in his region he is) and Kadez (best player in Saltillo, which Nery, Genialo, Daimy and Ang are also from). Also worth noting Hyuga lost to Nery and FuerzaDON for 49th and Waymas lost to Jasshy and Javi for 65th.

Top 64 and bracket's in the Tournament Tracker thread.

So this basically was Mexico's 2GGC: Civil War, right? I do wish Serge went though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yei also won a game with against ANTi's .

It was only a single game, and he lost the rest of the set, so....

So this basically was Mexico's 2GGC: Civil War, right? I do wish Serge went though.

I have no idea why MkLeo or Mr. R went to this tournament. It doesn't feel the same without them.

 

[Iridium]

https://t.co/Wb8MrVeqBs?amp=1
Here is our PGRv5 Area 51!:
Kome
Karna
Chag
Eim
Manny

Make sure to check out my PGRv5 thread here: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-pgrv5-reveal-thread.456754/

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

What are your guys opinions on this current season?

 

[|RK|]

What are your guys opinions on this current season?

Are we in a season? Genuine question. No one knows what PGR rank anything is, or the tournament tier system.

 

[J0eyboi]

I was really impressed with Cloudy's Roy at SF7 doubles GF yesterday. Sure, it's sort of a function of double Cloud being banned, but it was very obviously effective.

Roy has a worse neutral than Marthcina, but some wicked punish options that really show in doubles. Bair, dash attack, and u-smash are all very scary things to be thrown into or recovering around, and F-smash is a nearly Ganon-tier read punish (or shield break punish) attached to a character with a run speed conducive to doubles.

He's probably more similar to Cloud than any other character. With significant Cloud nerfs, a lot to gain from options out of a fast dash, and potentially attractive SH aerials with just a little less lag, Roy could be a sleeper hit of the Ulti characters we haven't seen yet.

Yeah, Roy could get really good in Ultimate, especially if he still has throw combos, which his trailer made it look like he did, and extra especially if tech rolls are worse. That said, he may lose his best Sm4sh neutral tool to the new powershield mechanics due to Nair becoming parry bait, especially if shieldstun stays the same, which would mean just dropping shield after Nair 1 hits it would be a free punish.