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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Discussion in 'Competitive Discussion' started by Liberation, Dec 11, 2017.

  1. Liberation

    Liberation
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    Official Smash Wii U Backroom List V4 (Wii U Version 1.1.7)
    S: :4bayonetta: :4cloud: :4diddy:
    A: :4sheik: :rosalina: :4zss: :4fox: :4sonic: :4mario: :4mewtwo: :4marth: :4ryu:
    B: :4corrinf: :4lucina: :4pikachu: :4metaknight: :4lucario: :4luigi: :4falcon: :4peach:
    C: :4olimar: :4dk: :4tlink: :4bowser: :4villagerf: :4greninja: :4megaman: :4ness: :4lucas:
    D: :4duckhunt: :4link: (:4pit::4darkpit:) :4yoshi: :4shulk: :4rob: :4robinm: :4samus:
    E: :4gaw: :4myfriends: :4wario: :4feroy: :4charizard: :4littlemac: :4palutena:
    F: :4pacman: :4falco: :4bowserjr: :4drmario: :4kirby: :4wiifitm:
    G: :4dedede: :4ganondorf: :4zelda: :4jigglypuff:
    Text Version
    S: Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy Kong
    A: Sheik, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Fox, Sonic, Mario, Mewtwo, Marth, Ryu
    B: Corrin, Lucina, Pikachu, Meta Knight, Lucario, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Peach
    C: Olimar, Donkey Kong, Toon Link, Bowser, Villager, Greninja, Mega Man, Ness, Lucas
    D: Duck Hunt Dog, Link, Pit & Dark Pit, Yoshi, Shulk, R.O.B., Robin, Samus
    E: Mr. Game & Watch, Ike, Wario, Roy, Charizard, Little Mac, Palutena
    F: Pac-Man, Falco, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer
    G: King Dedede, Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff

    As always, read the full article for details. There were some process changes this time around. A followup article will be released around the end of the year.

    ---

    Previous Lists:
    Version 1.0
    Version 2.0
    Version 3.0

    ---
    Tournament results are to be posted in this thread.
     
    #1 Liberation, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  2. Liberation

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    This is the most strictly moderated thread on Smashboards. Read the rules!

    Welcome to the Character Competitive Impressions thread. This is the master discussion covering comparisons of characters in Smash 4.

    This includes comparisons to specific other characters, or the roster in general.

    This can be in theory, results, or personal experience.

    And yes, this includes tier lists. But let's lay down some ground rules.

    --------------------------------------------------

    THE RULES

    First, obey the Smashboards Global Rules. This subforum is intended to be the best discussion area Smashboards has to offer. Infractions for Spam, Flaming, Trolling, and Harassment are given out with less leniency here than anywhere else, and punishments tend to be roughly double.


    Posts in this thread must also adhere to special Topic and Substance Rules. We allow such a broad spread of interwoven topics here, that we actually require more rules to prevent things from spiraling off-topic. (Defending a bigger territory requires bigger walls.)

    There's really only one rule: Posts have to be on-topic and have substance. But that's ambiguous, and so as a guideline topics allowed for discussion in this thread are divided into "Green Topics" and "Yellow Topics".

    Green Topics are central topics that are explicitly okay to discuss as much as you want:
    • Hard Data on Character Usage or Wins
      • Online or Off
    • Character Matchup Explorations
      • Options, Interactions, Mindset
      • Non-obvious Character/Move Advantages/Disadvantages
      • Data, Theorycraft, and Expert Opinions
      • What skill tests does the matchup focus on, for each side?
      • Stage Preferences
    • Tournament Results
      • Characters or Players
    • Metagame
      • Implications of rulesets, patches, or community trends
    • Comparisons of Gameplay in Different Environments
      • Different Regions or Communities
      • 1v1 vs 2v2 vs 3v3 vs 4v4 vs FFA
    • Initial Posting of Smash News
    Yellow Topics include things that, without context, risk diverting the topic away from characters or boil down to opinion. You may talk about Yellow Topics, but if and only if you can tie each one back to a Green Topic in the same post. (If you are doing it right, this should be entirely organic and you shouldn't have to worry about it.)
    • Tier Lists
      • Includes any form of partial tier list
      • "Top 15", bottom 10", "who is the worst character", "viable threats", ect.
    • Character Matchup Lists/Summaries
      • Includes any form of matchup ratios
    • Obvious Character/Move Advantages/Disadvantages
      • "Mac loses the matchup. He has an amazing ground game, but his recovery is awful."
      • "Mac wins the matchup. His recovery is awful, but he has an amazing ground game."
      • If the reasons you give for something are already known to all, you haven't done anything to make it more than a statement of opinion.
    • "Vacuum" Comparisons
      • Direct comparison of individual moves or properties in isolation
      • "Which is better, Mario bair or Luigi bair?"
    • Hypothetical Changes
      • Includes patch wishes
    • Patch Notes
    • Tournament Hype
      • "Wow, Reggie beats Bill 3-1."
      • "That dair spike! If she had just buffered that ledge option..."
      • "I can't believe he is sticking with Rosalina after that match."
    • Rulesets
    • Custom Moveset Choices
    • Other Smash/Fighting Games
      • Includes changes to characters or matchups across games
      • Includes comparisons of tier lists or balance across games
      • Includes comparisons of which skills games focus on
    • General Gameplay Advice or Guides
      • Giving or Asking
    • Discussion of Smash News
    Red Topics are explicitly banned. Any post that focuses on them is grounds for a spam infraction.
    • Tier List Meta Discussion
      • "Do tiers exist? How about tires?"
      • "How important are tiers compared to player skill?"
      • "How should tier lists be constructed and expressed?"
      • "What do tier labels really mean?"
      • "What is the point of tier lists?"
    • Matchup Ratio Meta Discussion
      • "What do/should matchup ratios mean, exactly?"
      • "What is the best way to express matchup ratios?"
      • "How precise can we really claim matchup ratios are?"
      • "What constitutes a 'counter'?"
    • Game Preference Discussion
      • Includes how much you don't respect/like FFAs or online play.
    • Ruleset Preference Discussion
    • Non-Constructive Criticism (on any topic)
    • Meta Discussion on Smashboards Rules
    • Naming Moves or Combos

    Finally, there are also special Tier List Posting Rules. Tier lists are a helpful way to quickly summarize and compare opinions+experience across the community, as well as provide historical snapshots of the metagame. However, the posting of tier lists often spreads like a virus and leads to a race-to-the-bottom in which discussion focuses more and more on stating opinions without substance. As such:
    • If there is already a tier list post on the current 50-post page, no one else may post one.
      • No exceptions.
    • They may only be posted by regular members of the discussion, or extremely well-respected players.
      • If you have to ask, the answer is no.
    • We don't care about your opinions. We care about your observations, reflections, and conclusions. Never, ever post just a list.
      • Why did you need to post this list? What is different? What does it mean?
    • Similarly, replies to a personal tier list are held to the same standard.
      • In particular, non-constructive criticism will be moderated harshly.
      • The correct response to a poor tier list, like most bad content, is to not respond.
    • The creator of a list may answer single replies asking for clarifications, but further discussion of the list itself ends there.
      • If a personal tier list and any clarifications lead to discussion of Green Topics, great! But discussion will never be allowed to continue on a list itself, for its own sake.
    Breaking these thread-specific rules is likely to result not only in (strict) standard moderation penalties, but is also likely to earn a temporary ban from this individual thread.

    If you have any questions about these posting guidelines, please PM @Liberation or @Shaya.


    --------------------------------------------------

    Legacy Threads::
    http://smashboards.com/threads/first-official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list.429817/
    http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/
    http://smashboards.com/threads/char...sions-tourneys-tiers-theories-tactics.422864/
    http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/
    http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-mlg-finals.420852/
    http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-tbh5.419494/
    http://smashboards.com/threads/evo-2kxv-competitive-impressions.410539/
    http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/
    https://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v3-competitive-insight-analysis.445990/
     
  3. valakmtnsmash4

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    As with any Competitive Impressions and Analysis thread, let the debates rage on. Here's to another good one!
     
  4. Das Koopa

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    Pizza pasta put it in a box
     
  5. ARGHETH

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    Wow, nothing too controversial this time.
     
  6. ShinyLegendary

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    I dream to be a true mastermind genius!

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    Thank you for putting Luigi in high tier and Cloud in second, as well as Falcon staying in high tier.
    I can not wait for everyone to post their opinions! I said earlier that Sheik left A tier for the first time.... Cloud in second is pretty cool. I hope everyone enjoys this new thread!

    Where is the box?

    Yes, hopefully everyone agrees with the list. The only dangers I could see is Cloud in second and Greninja in middle tier ( though hopefully everyone ignores this ).
     
    #6 ShinyLegendary, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  7. Envoy of Chaos

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    Wow I'm actually okay with Ness placement I was expecting him to get really disrespected lol. Would C be considered high or mid high?
     
  8. Aegislasher

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    Cool. Another thread I can lurk for the next six months.
     
  9. ShadowKoopa

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    Aw man Boswer Jr is in F tier. I should really get back into playing Mario considering how high he ranks.

    Surprised to see Diddy Kong in top 3. I know he still gets used a lot but I didn't realize he was considered that good.
     
  10. Wintermelon43

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    Unsurprisingly I still disagree with almost all of this. Underrated characters are severly underrated, Overrated characters are extremely overrated. Nothing surprising, although I am surprised that Little Mac still isn't in low tier when he very clearly belongs there and the majority seems to agree.
     
  11. NINTENDO Galaxy

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    Can't wait to see this get past 200 pages again.
     
  12. valakmtnsmash4

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    Also good luck with LibraRank, will you be posting it here too?
     
  13. Tizio Random

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    Very solid list all around! Obviously some things could be contested but nothing major. Not surprised at all by the top 3 (especially Bayo having the lowest deviation). Sad to see my girl Zelda bottom 2 but well :(
    Good job!
     
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  14. Krysco

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    From the article on the home page: While we avoided giving strict designations (Top, High, Mid and Low) for this edition of the Tier List, for those looking towards specific character tier events, tiers F and G would be fair to consider for Low Tier; for Mid Tier, tiers D and E.

    So S and A would be top, B and C would be high tier?
     
  15. Frihetsanka

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    Female Corrin instead of male Corrin, perhaps as a homage to great Corrin players who use female Corrin such as Cosmos, Ryuga, Frozen, MkLeo, Earth, and, well... Most of them, really.

    It's a good list, overall. Certainly an improvement over the 3.0 list. There are lots of things I don't 100% agree with but that's to be expected. Samus seems a bit low though. Seems Corrin remain at #13, top of high tier. Last time a lot of people disagreed. Do people still disagree? I think she might actually belong around #13.
     
  16. Nathan Richardson

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    Hrrmm Again lucina and marth aren't close enough together, dark pit is gone so I'm guessing him and pit are the same placement? And ryu is still way too high....everything else seems ok though...
     
  17. Liberation

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    C's very much a grey area. Definitely would fit in the middle-high range since most characters in there could fit within mid or high.

    If you want into get into the nitty gritty that would be the case; however, the existence of tiers like C tier made Shaya and myself opt to focus less on the designations.

    This has been the case since V3.
     
    #17 Liberation, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  18. |RK|

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    Said it before; expected Kirby to move down despite doing more than Doc & Jr.

    Lucario & Greninja's placements are alright for now; I believe both are underrated.

    Solid list overall. I even like Diddy as 3rd best.
     
  19. MrGameguycolor

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    Okay, what's new scooby doo...


    *Cloud is ranked 2nd - No surprise there.

    *Miis are executed - Aww...

    *Pit and Dark Pit are now one of the same - Interesting...

    *Duck Hunt got a boost

    *Toon Link is sandwiched in between DK and Bowser - Odd...

    *Dr. Mario is up 2 spots - Woo hoo!

    *Pac Man's still bottom 10 - I guess Sinji wasn't enough.

    *Corrin hasn't changed - Good.



    That's all I got.
     
    #19 MrGameguycolor, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  20. A Scrub

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    The Lucas/Ness placement is interesting. With Lucas' better neutral I expected him to be a slot or two above Ness, especially with Ness mains being close to non-existent a national/majors currently.
     
  21. Floor

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    I thought that, just for a moment, the battle would finally be all over. Looks like I was wrong. Alas, this is a step in the right direction. But nevertheless, still disheartening. I can't remember the last time I've seen a renown Smash player separate the two Falchions.
     
  22. Ilikebugs

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    Im happy with this. I think that ness is too low and shulk and robin are way too high though
     
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  23. Envoy of Chaos

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    That's a fair way of looking at it, overall a pretty solid list good work.
     
  24. ismaaa

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    I'm pretty happy with that tier list
     
  25. Opossum

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    At the very least I think this is the closest together Marth and Lucina have been, right? Only Corrin and Ryu are between them. Progress, at least.
     
    #25 Opossum, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  26. TDK

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    This is pretty agreeable overall and definitely the best one yet. Just a few nitpicks personally:

    - Marth and Ryu are for sure not top tier, I'm not sure how they're still up here. Mewtwo being below Mario also strikes me as odd, but I guess it doesn't matter in the long run.
    - Peach, Luigi, Olimar, and especially Greninja are super underrated where they're at, but that's not too surprising since they're all pretty rare characters. If we ever get more nationally relevant players of them, expect them all to shoot up.
    - Is Wii Fit really bottom 5? I can't see it.
    - I can agree with Diddy in third (Him, Sheik, and Rosa are pretty much tied to me at this point) but I think he'd fit better at the top of A rather than S.

    And for my mains (yay, bias!), I think Rosa's spot is spot-on and she's solidly top 5, and Link almost being in the top half of the cast (And, if I'm reading this right, the second best mid tier) makes me really happy.

    Here's to another round of circlejerking, everyone.
     
  27. Krysco

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    With V3 Marth and Lucina had 7 characters separating them, with this one, there's only 2 and apparently Marth and Ryu weren't even a whole point apart so it could've very well been only one character separating them. I'd be happy about that rather than complaining if I cared about Lucina's placement.
     
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  28. Lord Dio

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    Friends, we are gathered here today in remembrance of the Volume 3 Discussion Thread. It lived a long, healthy life of 6 months and over 200 pages. It bore witness to some of the greatest events in Smash Brothers history. We should not mourn, however weird people found certain placings, but instead we should celebrate this new opportunity for discussion given to us by the Backroom. Thank you all for having been there with the V3 Thread in it's final hours.

    That being said, I just can't seem to wrap my head about what people see in Dedede that makes him better than Ganondorf and Zelda. Ledge traps only account for so much.

    The list page explained that the frog, unfortunately, had his explosion after the voting ended.
    Which tbh is a shame considering all the work his players have been putting out.
     
  29. FamilyTeam

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    Are we gonna get an addendum like last years explaining some of the placements?
    To be honest I really want to know under what criteria happened here exactly that put Marth as better than Corrin and Ryu but Lucina as worse than those two. Why those two specifically, and why the position.
    At least this is still progress.
     
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  30. Liberation

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    That is indeed the case.

    There will be a followup article; I'll be in charge of it. I can't explain for all the voters ultimately but I will likely be looking at some of the more contested characters and large movers that weren't covered in the article, alongside some potential statements from other members.
     
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  31. MrGameguycolor

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    Take it for what it is mate.

    I'm still happy to see Doc not in Bottom 5.
     
  32. MercuryPenny

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    mario does NOT BELONG NEXT TO SONIC
     
  33. ARGHETH

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    Considering Marth and Ryu were separated by 0.04, I'd say it's probably just Corrin that's weird.
     
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  34. JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain

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    ...you've got to be kidding me. In what universe is Palutena worse than Charizard, Wario, Ike and Mr. Game & Watch? Haven't people come to accept what she can do, and that she has better MUs than some of those other characters? Haven't her results spoke up for her? I seriously thought 49th at GTX (S), 17th at Greninja Saga (A) and 33rd at EVO 2017 (S+) would be enough. Guess not. Guess she is still as irrelevant as always. I'm ashamed to call myself a Palu main, knowing she was at the brink of being low tier yet again...
     
  35. Myollnir

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    Very accurate list, I like how we now have a good grasp of what the final tier list will be.

    I don't think it will change much in the future. Maybe some +1/-1's here and there in S/A tier, but nothing too crazy.

    B & C tiers are the most likely to change radically, depending on how those characters' metagames develop.

    D & E tier are really spot-on if you ask me, except that I expected Roy to be where Ike is.

    F & G are pretty much set in stone IMO. These are the absolutely unviable characters of Smash4 : there's a huge gap between E & F tier. We're 3 years in after the game's release, their metagame won't get developped any further at this point.
    That still leaves a huge amount of good/decent characters in the game, though!

    Great work overall, so gj to the people involved.
     
  36. ShinyLegendary

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    Why does Kirby keep on dropping? Is he being used less? Ah well. Also thank you for Doctor Mario not in bottom five, he has some Mario potential ( despite his horrible recovery ).
     
  37. Gamegenie222

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    3DS FC:
    3411-1825-3363
    NNID:
    Gamegenie222
    here we go again lol
     
    Nu~ likes this.
  38. Aegislasher

    Aegislasher
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    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2015
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    At the bottom of the locals I have gone 0-2 in.
    3DS FC:
    3153-5646-3027
    As a Palu secondary, I can agree with this. Wario, Ike and Mr. Game and Watch are definitely worse than her. I don't know about Charizard though...

    I think it is a combination of not very good theory and a lack of representation at a high level. One of his biggest problems is his range so that doesn't help anything.
     
    #38 Aegislasher, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  39. Nah

    Nah
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    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,772
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    NNID:
    Nah527
    to the new CCI thread
    *raises glass*
     
    Prince Koopa Jr, Nu~, Jalil and 2 others like this.
  40. Nu~

    Nu~
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    Smash Dreamer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,223
    Location:
    MD
    NNID:
    EquinoXYZ
    Geez, Mega Man fell 11 places. The Mega Man discord is going insane lmao

    I’m not sure that he’s that low but does anyone else have any ideas as to why he’s been underperforming lately?
     

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