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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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DunnoBro

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what's the optimal control scheme for duck hunt?
Either a shoulder jump or special. Technically A+B smash if you want to do that Frisbee/Usmash combo but it isn't very relevant at all.

I use Z-jump, X Grab, Attack Stick, and Y Shield (for teching only)

IIRC Raito uses the same, but brood and yusan only use shoulder specials.
 

Kofu

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When Jigglypuff is brought up, I am reminded of this old post by Thinkaman Thinkaman

I'm not sure if he still holds by it, but while the character does have significant weaknesses, her moves do what they're supposed to do and she has, for the most part, the physics and movement she needs (I've wondered if a slightly greater fastfall speed would benefit her game some). She just lacks sufficient reward for getting in (which can be a huge chore)

The same could be said for most low and mid-tier characters, really. As questionable a change DK's and Bowser's grab combos are, you can't deny that they give them substantial reward for getting in and winning neutral exchanges, and has made them real threats.
 
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NotLiquid

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The main thing I disagree with fundamentally is the presence of an "SS" tier list. It's one of the reasons I like the latest 4BR tier list because I think many people are too obsessed with drawing lines in the sand for a game that isn't as individually disproportionate, even in the bottom tiers. I can buy an argument that Sheik and Diddy are the best in the game but based off of results and matchups I could also buy an argument for Cloud, Bayonetta and maybe even Rosalina on a good day. If there is a "best character" I don't believe they have anything that makes them a whole cut above several of their runner ups.

On a similar note I don't believe Jiggs is a tier worse from the lowest either, especially since you can make a decent argument that she's not even the worst character to begin with.
 
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chaos11011

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what's the optimal control scheme for duck hunt?
I use L jump for easier FH Can deployment (the safest way to set up as you can land with a fadeback FAir and cover options with Can), FH Clay Pigeon (Clay Pigeon to FH Clay Pigeon UAir is a kill confirm at 110ish), and FH DAir off of Can confirms to kill with FSmash at mid percents if they dont tech.

Tilt stick recommended too imo as PP Ftilt is good for spacing (anticipating rushed approaches) and PP Utilt is a good combo starter at early percents if they air dodge Dthrow/Fthrow. You can also hover near can and PP Utilt the Can to catch airborne opponents as a mix up. Or PP Dtilt behind the Can (when you were in front of it) to use it as a surprise projectile

I also use Y Grab (but thats totally just my preference) and Z shield (but thats for easier needle cancels for Sheik)
 
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TheTechnicalityGuy

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I should consider myself lucky a player like yourself knows who I am. How proud I am to be known by "MistressRemilia".

:018:
How can anyone forget the seventh person to beat ZeRo in a tournament set in Smash 4? You should be glad that you did that after Nairo, Tyrant, Mr. R, ESAM, Mr. Concon and Vinnie. The first four don't count? Okay then, make it third.
 

chaos11011

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also i just wanna say that DH indeed has OoS options Thinkaman Thinkaman . Jab, NAir, and Can are good options that can cover both sides, but you have to turn around for Jab and BReverse for Can. If you have the percent lead, you can combo OoS Can to an aerial. Suicide Can is a potent kill option, as we saw during game 1 VS Larry as it forces 50/50s with DI

I also agree with the statement that Raito is the best of the 3. He was my DH of choice late 2016 and he still is.
 
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Iron Kraken

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My general thoughts on this tier list from Mr. R:



:4diddy: & :4sheik: : Strongly disagree with the two of them being in their own tier.
:4fox: & :4mario: : I think he has them too high. I certainly don't think it's a coincidence that he has them here after struggling against Larry Lurr and Ally historically. I really don't see these characters being an entire tier above :4marth::4lucina::4mewtwo: (I actually flip the tiers for these characters on my list).
:4corrin: : I actually sort of agree with Corrin's placement here despite the results not quite being on that level yet. I just believe in the character's attributes.
:4jigglypuff:: I don't disagree with Jiggs being in her own tier. I think she really is bad enough to justify it.

Other than that nothing else really stands out.
 
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Rizen

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My top tier would be :4diddy:[:4sheik::4bayonetta2:]:4cloud:. I feel like these four are close and a tic above the other top tiers.

For some reason I get a perverse sense of Joy from seeing :4link: a tier above :4pacman:. It shows how the meta favors heavy hitters who can make comebacks.
 
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FeelMeUp

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:4fox: & :4mario: : I think he has them too high. I certainly don't think it's a coincidence that he has them here after struggling against Larry Lurr and Ally historically.
Virtually every single player has both Fox and Mario somewhere between 6-8.
What exactly is wrong with him doing the same.
 

Iron Kraken

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Virtually every single player has both Fox and Mario somewhere between 6-8.
What exactly is wrong with him doing the same.
First of all, I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. We're talking about opinions, not facts.

I agree that putting :4mario: and :4fox: in the 6-8 range is not totally unusual. But I don't think you'd find many other players who put them a tier above :4marth: and :4mewtwo: right now.

I also strongly disagree with :4fox: above :rosalina:... but hey, opinions.
 
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PMMikey

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I would say that :4sonic: needs to be switched with :rosalina:, also :4ryu: should go to A- because I don't see any reason why he would be in the placement he is in and I know everyone is different on this, but shouldn't :4lucina::4marth: be closer together? I know they have a few small differences but are they big enough to split them this far apart, or is it cause more people just use Marth? Other than some nit picking in the A- I would say that the rest fine.
 

TDK

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Puff and Zelda are probably the Bottom tiers (My bottom tier is :4zelda: :4pacman: :4dedede: :4ganondorf: :4jigglypuff:) with the most realistic ability to get better. Puff isn't a bad character, just an underwhelming one, and should her moves magically get damage and/or speed buffs she'd be better than the rest of the characters in this tier. She really is the definition of Undertuned - a functional character that fails because she just isn't strong enough.

Maybe it's because I've been watching Fairess play, but Zelda seems capable of doing something, maybe. Here's some of her strengths:

- Reliable Throw combos all the way until death, this alone probably makes her the best bottom tier
- Down Tilt is amazing, it's a strong combo tool setting up into Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, Grabs, Up Tilt, Neutral B, Dash Attack, and more depending on opponent % and DI, it also lasts for 7 frames (Meaning it catches 2-frames really well, Down Tilt -> Kick at the ledge is deadly) and has low startup/endlag. It's probably her best move.
- Fairly Damaging combo game, surprisingly. Dthrow Nair itself does nearly 20% on average on a two-hit combo and can lead into Kicks and regrabs, as an example.
- Ridiculous kill power out of stray hits, Pivot Ftilt can catch people and kill them early, Trump -> Kick is true, Down Smash comes out on Frame 5, sends at an excellent angle, kills surprisingly early, and is one of her fastest OoS options. Farore's Wind's second hit kills extremely early, can be followed up out of the first hit, and more.
- Farore's Wind itself is one of the best single move recoveries in the game, and one of the ones that benefits the most from Beefy Up-Bs, as again, the second hit's Knockback is ridiculous. It's also a scary OoS option, can platform Cancel (Farore's Wind -> Platform Cancel > Kick eats shields).
- I can't stress this enough, but Reliable kill confirms out of Grab, and Reliable kill confirms out of a fast, safe move, matter so much in this game.

Here's a video for each of the three best Zeldas (Ven, Onpu, and Fairess):

Ven: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSqDL6PeGEY
Onpu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJB4tnmJ8M8
Fairess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjYGQdZqZyw
 

Frihetsanka

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:4diddy: & :4sheik: : Strongly disagree with the two of them being in their own tier.

:4fox: & :4mario: : I think he has them too high. I certainly don't think it's a coincidence that he has them here after struggling against Larry Lurr and Ally historically. I really don't see these characters being an entire tier above :4marth::4lucina::4mewtwo: (I actually flip the tiers for these characters on my list).
:4corrin: : I actually sort of agree with Corrin's placement here despite the results not quite being on that level yet. I just believe in the character's attributes.
:4jigglypuff:: I don't disagree with Jiggs being in her own tier. I think she really is bad enough to justify it.
:4diddy: & :4sheik:: I think it's fine if he also adds Bayonetta and Cloud, Those four seem to stand out a bit more than the rest of top tier. Maybe change the name though, they're note quite SS level.

:4fox: & :4mario:: I think Fox at #6 is quite reasonable, actually. Mario at #8 is not that bad either, many put him at #6, personally I'd put him at #9-10 though.
:4corrinf:: #12 is a bit too high. I don't think she's better than Ryu or Lucina. #14 would be more reasonable, though I'm not sure whether she's better than Pikachu either.
:4jigglypuff:: I used to think that Jigglypuff was the worst character in the game. Then I started playing her (for fun) and I also looked at some of her matchups. She has a surprisingly decent amount of even MUs (not many winning though). I don't think she's the worst character in the game anymore, and certainly not a tier below the rest.
 

Guido65

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:4corrin::A bit too high(should be like 19th). Doesn't really have the results to justify 13th and the character is way too based on his theory rather then practice. Attributes and kit wise aside from dragon lunge fair and nair he's a pretty mediocre character and the rest of the tools corrin has range from decent to good but nothing very special, and corrins out of shield options are kinda poor.I think corrin is gonna get worse when people stop approaching them.

:4tlink: toon link should be swapped with the pits. Matchup wise toon links matchups are rather poor to be placed where he is. Losing -3 to cloud, along with a ton of losing matchups against a ton of characters that are common makes placing him where he is a bit too generous.

:4mewtwo::A few spots too low. Mewtwo is definitely top 10 and is a very solid character. Top 4 neutral and amazing advantage states along with being able to kill from neutral are very powerful traits to have. Although his diddy and cloud mus are pretty poor the rest of his spread is extremely good.

:4diddy:and :4sheik:: no disagreements to them being top 2but for me sheik is definitely better then diddy mostly based on mus as sheik doesn't lose to anyone besides maybe:4mario:and:rosalina:. Also she hardly has any exploitable holes like mario and clouds bad frontal options, zss's poor ground game,clouds poor ground game and bad disadvantage state. The only real flaw she seems to have is rage but even then because she always controls the pace of the match its really hard to get her into a bad spot where she would die because of it.
 
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RonNewcomb

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  • Duck Hunts faults are surface-level--not quite superficial, but obvious. Like he's got a bad recovery, selectively poor frame data (like on OoS), and some multi-hit stuff can drop. But okay, that's the end of it. It just is what it is.
  • Duck Hunt's strengths are all applicable to top level play. Good grabs, spot-dodges, and uairs never go out of style.
  • He has a solid neutral and the possibility to zone more or less anyone. No one shuts him down, not even Rosa or Villager.
Cloud shuts him down, and a Sheik-level problem of closing out a stock is applicable to top-level.

I still think he's a fine mid-tier, and is kinda a version of Toon Link with some slightly different trade-offs.
 

|RK|

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jiggs has okay matchups vs at least 3 relevant and commonly used top tiers. that's better than ddd, ganon and zelda can say. it's the main reason i don't believe she could be the worst character in the game. when i play jiggs, i feel like i'm using a piece of ****.
but it's a WORKABLE piece of **** vs a portion of the roster
when i'm using zelda, ddd, ganon, or pacman i wonder why i even hovered over them on the CSS in the first place.
Each of them at least has something undertuned. Ganon actually has to be respected if he's near you. Very liable to getting camped out, but it's done because he can be scary. DDD has ledge traps and never dies. But he's trash at killing. Pac-Man has a lot, tbh. Ledge traps and harassment with item play. Even with his gameplan beaten by shield in many cases, I wouldn't put him in bottom with the rest.

Zelda, on the other hand... I'm consistently confused about how her kit is supposed to work together. Everyone else's gameplan makes total sense. But Zelda is a what...? Zoner with bad zoning tools? Anti approach character with no quick pokes? Punish character that doesn't survive long OR have the speed to punish most things? I genuinely don't understand what she's supposed to do in a game where everyone else makes some sense.
 

TDK

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Zelda, on the other hand... I'm consistently confused about how her kit is supposed to work together. Everyone else's gameplan makes total sense. But Zelda is a what...? Zoner with bad zoning tools? Anti approach character with no quick pokes? Punish character that doesn't survive long OR have the speed to punish most things? I genuinely don't understand what she's supposed to do in a game where everyone else makes some sense.
Zelda is, supposedly, a wall character that's designed to force you to play at a range where you have to respect her, as Kicks/Up-B/pretty much anything she has that isn't Din's Fire are capable of doing a lot of damage, Knockback, or both is sweespotted. Additionally, Hitting her shield is fairly threatening, as Farore's Wind can start killing extremely early and a Frame 5 Down smash with a good KB and angle on it is just about as threatening. However, if you manage to get past Zelda's defences, she's relatively helpless, as she dies early and can't break out of combos easily. Her only real option in disadvantage is Warping to another part of the stage.

...Of course, her gameplan barely works because of how bad she is at accomplishing this, and her design still plays as an afterthought to Sheik: Someone who, in previous games, you would switch to to make use of her great KO power or Recovery, then switch back. But without Sheik, she has a decent damage racking game and strong kill power, but lacks much in the way of a functional gameplan, as she was still balanced with Sheik in mind. Being as slow as a snail doesn't help her either.
 

Thinkaman

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what's the optimal control scheme for duck hunt?
No one asked me, but in Smash 4 I put Special on Y and never looked back. (It helped that, as a traditional Jiggs main, I had always used X to jump because to me jumping was distinctly a "horizontal" action, better suited to a horizontal roll of the thumb.)

The thumb can reach A+X+Y all at the same time, unlike B which cannot really be pressed with anything other than A unless you are doing some sort of claw. This means I don't half to deal with the exotic shoulder-mapping malarkey, and yet can do all the tricks.

All that said, as a guy who loves Duck Hunt, I still have an open bounty for anyone who can discover a way to reliably input neutral special independent of the control stick. Man, I would kill just to have an assigned button of "neutral special."

When Jigglypuff is brought up, I am reminded of this old post by Thinkaman Thinkaman

I'm not sure if he still holds by it, but while the character does have significant weaknesses, her moves do what they're supposed to do and she has, for the most part, the physics and movement she needs (I've wondered if a slightly greater fastfall speed would benefit her game some). She just lacks sufficient reward for getting in (which can be a huge chore)
Yeah, Jiggs is just not that bad. I've won locals with her--doesn't mean much, but like, I have, you know?

Rest is sort of like Aura, but even higher risk/reward. The main difference is that Rest doesn't change up the neutral via changes to shield stun and range, and that Rest is basically irrelevant against opponents at low %.

But seriously, literally every combo in this game that isn't 100% true or distinctly disjointed can be interrupted by Rest, a vertical kill move. Additionally, SHAD Rest is a low-commitment option that can threaten almost every move that takes over ~35-40 frames. On any other character, people would be complaining about this move constantly.

also i just wanna say that DH indeed has OoS options Thinkaman Thinkaman . Jab, NAir, and Can are good options that can cover both sides, but you have to turn around for Jab and BReverse for Can.
Uh, DH has OoS options to the exact extent that everyone has some "options", but they aren't the envy of anyone in the cast except maybe Palutena or something.
  • Ground options are just a no-go. Frame 12 for a jab? Frame 12 for a u-smash that isn't going to hit anything?
  • Up-b is not an option, and otherwise only Can has potential. Yet it's situational, has drawbacks, and is still in the absolute best case only frame 5.
  • Nair is tragically his best option, but is still frame 10. (Contrast with Villager's nair, which is f8 OoS, has triple the active frames, half the endlag, less landing lag, and AUTO CANCELS! To say nothing about f11 OoS Axe...)
Even his standing grab is a relatively embarrassing f8! I mean, that's far from bad, but there's a definite shortage of good news on anything involving frame timings here.


Of course, the good news is that his grab range is solid, with endlag as good as the very best, stacked on top of the best dodge/roll numbers in the game bar none. He also does have SHAD tools, should those be relevant.

Bottom line though is that DH's OoS options are thoroughly mediocre, with uninspiring reward tied to dubious frame timings. Dr. Mario he ain't.

Each of them at least has something undertuned. Ganon actually has to be respected if he's near you. Very liable to getting camped out, but it's done because he can be scary. DDD has ledge traps and never dies. But he's trash at killing. Pac-Man has a lot, tbh. Ledge traps and harassment with item play. Even with his gameplan beaten by shield in many cases, I wouldn't put him in bottom with the rest.
Ganon would just like to be able to punch through more stuff, and have more incentive for the call-outs he actually can make. Smash 4 Ganon isn't quite as structurally limited as people seem to think.

Pac-Man just sucks vs. shield and that's it. Ampharos had an interesting notion once, of "What if Pac-Man's dash attack was safe on shield?" (It almost is to begin with: just ~2 frames off for most of the cast, and actually safe against people like Link, DH, and Villager.) It would be an interesting alternative to grab, especially if you achieved this new safety via cranking up the shield damage. (nom nom nom)

Zelda, on the other hand... I'm consistently confused about how her kit is supposed to work together. Everyone else's gameplan makes total sense. But Zelda is a what...? Zoner with bad zoning tools? Anti approach character with no quick pokes? Punish character that doesn't survive long OR have the speed to punish most things? I genuinely don't understand what she's supposed to do in a game where everyone else makes some sense.
When I watch Sol play Mac, I find myself getting lost in fantasy about how amazing Little Mac secretly must be. When I watched T's Link or Fatality's Falcon, I can't help but look past the character's flaws and see their pure, unrestricted gameplay underneath.

When I watch Ven's Zelda, I think, "Man, this character sucks."

I just see a helpless character getting slapped around by an unconcerned opponent, sort of like a Ganondorf. But then the opponent screws up, and Ven gets an unexpected amount of damage off a grab or d-tilt, and that's just sort of how it goes. Ven, more so than any other low tier main I've seen, seems to be "meh, I'll just outplay them" with the character as an afterthought. So yeah, I have no idea what the hell Zelda's actual plan is supposed to be either.

Also, this is everyone's monthly reminder that Phantom is not a terrible move, and would actually be a pretty great move if Zelda could just shield cancel it.


Edit - How could I forget!

Zelda's actual gameplan: Play 4v4.
 
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adom4

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Each of them at least has something undertuned. Ganon actually has to be respected if he's near you. Very liable to getting camped out, but it's done because he can be scary. DDD has ledge traps and never dies. But he's trash at killing. Pac-Man has a lot, tbh. Ledge traps and harassment with item play. Even with his gameplan beaten by shield in many cases, I wouldn't put him in bottom with the rest.

Zelda, on the other hand... I'm consistently confused about how her kit is supposed to work together. Everyone else's gameplan makes total sense. But Zelda is a what...? Zoner with bad zoning tools? Anti approach character with no quick pokes? Punish character that doesn't survive long OR have the speed to punish most things? I genuinely don't understand what she's supposed to do in a game where everyone else makes some sense.
Zelda is grab2win
 
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Rest is sort of like Aura, but even higher risk/reward. The main difference is that Rest doesn't change up the neutral via changes to shield stun and range, and that Rest is basically irrelevant against opponents at low %.
Just to comment on the bold, but while regular Rest is irrelevant at low percents, Rage Rest becomes relevant at low percents. Of course, that assumes Puff lives past 100% when Rage affects Rest very noticeably, but it's possible (as seen here). It's just not frequent.

Sadly, unlike Aura, Rest isn't as flexible nor does it improve her recovery at higher percents.
 

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2GGC: Greninja saga (Happening in May) already has iStudying :4greninja:, Locus :4ryu:, VoiD :4sheik:, and Abadango :4mewtwo: confirmed for attendance.
 

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Zelda's grabs have tether-like frame data with a range barely larger than Ness'. But then Dthrow can be DI'd so it isn't *that* guaranteed. Past Finger Bang % she has no kill options until much later.

Dtilt is good but it can get DI'd (theoretically at least, I'd say is as reliable/unreliable as Diddy's). And doesn't have much range anymore.

Her followups would be great if Lightning Kicks weren't SO.VERY.BAD that they take away a lot form her options on Advantage; you get an airdodge read and pray the goddesses your LK connects. Uair is fantastic but it doesn't make up for their flaws.

Farore's Wind isn't that great, DI destroys it. A raw second hit only kills if you're not paying attention (think of Pac-man's Hydrant but way more telegraphed).

Din's Fire being virtually useless is the last nail on the coffin.



For Jigglypuff is almost cartoonish how early she can die, but at least her gameplan is very solid.
:196:
 

Rizen

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Zelda, on the other hand... I'm consistently confused about how her kit is supposed to work together. Everyone else's gameplan makes total sense. But Zelda is a what...? Zoner with bad zoning tools? Anti approach character with no quick pokes? Punish character that doesn't survive long OR have the speed to punish most things? I genuinely don't understand what she's supposed to do in a game where everyone else makes some sense.
She's a grappler/combo-er who can't force actions from the opponent and sucks at approaching. Echoing what has been said, Dtilt is a good option for starting combos and she can get high reward off grabs including a ding-dong. She can also combo from Nair and jab>DA or Farow's at certain %s. Her other upsides are great recovery and offstage gimping, Nayru's is actually a good interruption tool with intangibility, long duration and it reflects, and the ability to kill very early by outplaying the opponent.

The downsides are: Din's fire is trash. Who's bright idea was it to make Din's force freefalling? It's too slow to combo into anything and can be dodged on reaction. Phantom is not great but not bad and I can see why they added it to complement Din's and Farow's pass-through properties. But unfortunately Din's is trash. If Din's had some use like a zoning/mario fireball or good cooldown it would really tie Zelda's move set together.
What this amounts to is zoning that can be easily reacted to with no combo potential. So she has to approach but her mobility is bad and she doesn't have good burst option combo starters. Lightning kicks (LKs) suck without a read or being comboed into so from the air she has to rely on Nair, which can be pivoted or swatted by swordies. From the ground she's better but has nothing to force anything if the opponent doesn't play ball. She has good defensive footsies but no offense besides reads off slow moves and even then she gets out-zoned at sword range and out-frame data-ed by critters.

I think she was never designed for 1vs1s.

PS din's is trash.
 

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With one of the versions of PM Din's Fire and the one custom Din's Fire with the delay before it detonates, I always thought that a great way to make Din's Fire useful would be to let it last in it's stopping spot either until a certain amount of time has passed or until the Zelda player presses side b again. Would give her control over a space for a certain amount of time and if you wanted to use it like the current Din's Fire, you'd just have to double tap side b, kinda like Corrin's instapin. Having it not cause free fall would help too. Then again, she was originally designed in Melee to compliment Sheik and thanks to the 3DS' limitations, that couldn't happen in Sm4sh.
 

Nobie

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No one asked me, but in Smash 4 I put Special on Y and never looked back. (It helped that, as a traditional Jiggs main, I had always used X to jump because to me jumping was distinctly a "horizontal" action, better suited to a horizontal roll of the thumb.)

The thumb can reach A+X+Y all at the same time, unlike B which cannot really be pressed with anything other than A unless you are doing some sort of claw. This means I don't half to deal with the exotic shoulder-mapping malarkey, and yet can do all the tricks.

All that said, as a guy who loves Duck Hunt, I still have an open bounty for anyone who can discover a way to reliably input neutral special independent of the control stick. Man, I would kill just to have an assigned button of "neutral special."



Yeah, Jiggs is just not that bad. I've won locals with her--doesn't mean much, but like, I have, you know?

Rest is sort of like Aura, but even higher risk/reward. The main difference is that Rest doesn't change up the neutral via changes to shield stun and range, and that Rest is basically irrelevant against opponents at low %.

But seriously, literally every combo in this game that isn't 100% true or distinctly disjointed can be interrupted by Rest, a vertical kill move. Additionally, SHAD Rest is a low-commitment option that can threaten almost every move that takes over ~35-40 frames. On any other character, people would be complaining about this move constantly.



Uh, DH has OoS options to the exact extent that everyone has some "options", but they aren't the envy of anyone in the cast except maybe Palutena or something.
  • Ground options are just a no-go. Frame 12 for a jab? Frame 12 for a u-smash that isn't going to hit anything?
  • Up-b is not an option, and otherwise only Can has potential. Yet it's situational, has drawbacks, and is still in the absolute best case only frame 5.
  • Nair is tragically his best option, but is still frame 10. (Contrast with Villager's nair, which is f8 OoS, has triple the active frames, half the endlag, less landing lag, and AUTO CANCELS! To say nothing about f11 OoS Axe...)
Even his standing grab is a relatively embarrassing f8! I mean, that's far from bad, but there's a definite shortage of good news on anything involving frame timings here.


Of course, the good news is that his grab range is solid, with endlag as good as the very best, stacked on top of the best dodge/roll numbers in the game bar none. He also does have SHAD tools, should those be relevant.

Bottom line though is that DH's OoS options are thoroughly mediocre, with uninspiring reward tied to dubious frame timings. Dr. Mario he ain't.



Ganon would just like to be able to punch through more stuff, and have more incentive for the call-outs he actually can make. Smash 4 Ganon isn't quite as structurally limited as people seem to think.

Pac-Man just sucks vs. shield and that's it. Ampharos had an interesting notion once, of "What if Pac-Man's dash attack was safe on shield?" (It almost is to begin with: just ~2 frames off for most of the cast, and actually safe against people like Link, DH, and Villager.) It would be an interesting alternative to grab, especially if you achieved this new safety via cranking up the shield damage. (nom nom nom)



When I watch Sol play Mac, I find myself getting lost in fantasy about how amazing Little Mac secretly must be. When I watched T's Link or Fatality's Falcon, I can't help but look past the character's flaws and see their pure, unrestricted gameplay underneath.

When I watch Ven's Zelda, I think, "Man, this character sucks."

I just see a helpless character getting slapped around by an unconcerned opponent, sort of like a Ganondorf. But then the opponent screws up, and Ven gets an unexpected amount of damage off a grab or d-tilt, and that's just sort of how it goes. Ven, more so than any other low tier main I've seen, seems to be "meh, I'll just outplay them" with the character as an afterthought. So yeah, I have no idea what the hell Zelda's actual plan is supposed to be either.

Also, this is everyone's monthly reminder that Phantom is not a terrible move, and would actually be a pretty great move if Zelda could just shield cancel it.


Edit - How could I forget!

Zelda's actual gameplan: Play 4v4.
While it wouldn't change how Rest is a risk at low percents, I wonder if Jigglypuff would be affected by a Rest that becomes less risky at higher percents. Something like, Rest loses one frame of recovery time for every percent of damage Jigglypuff takes. Being the lightest character in the game means Jigglypuff would need to be on point to ever fully take advantage of it, but it would reduce the risk of the move feeling "not worth it" if Jigglypuff is too far-gone.

In fact, I sometimes wonder about how some of those really early kill moves become "not worth it" when a character is at too high a percent on either side. It's probably for the best that this is the case (puts pressure on Ryu to not just throw out raw SRKs at high percents... unless the Ryu is taking a gamble or making a hard read).

As for Duck Hunt, whenever I think of them, I see a projectile zoner that is by far the closest to being a "normal" character.

Most of the other zoners (Villager, Robin, the Links, etc.) have tether grabs. Mega Man doesn't have a tether but has one unique (yet admittedly effective) move take up three slots. Duck Hunt's kit, aside from the smash attacks, is pretty orthodox, and I wonder if the unreliable smashes were always supposed to be a way to balance that out. Maybe that's the case for Mega Man too, who lands an f-smash once in a blue moon in tournaments.

Also, the way to make Din's Fire good would be to give it a hitbox as it travels~~~
 
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Yonder

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Also, the way to make Din's Fire good is to make it a completely different move.
Oooh...Burn.

Honesty, I have a hard time not seeing Jigglypuff as not unanimously worst? Why? To sum it quickly at 3 am before sleeping, she gets 'Smash 4'd'way too hard. What that means to me is basically no matter how well she's doing, she's always prone to either dying at 50 % from a rage induced hit from like half the moves in the game, or having a shield break kill her instantly in a game where shid strength has been greatly reduced. Being light in a game with rage is just too detrimental in this game. At least M2 has amazing evasive options and can camp. Puff has to approach.

Sakurai made her bad on purpose folks, I think it's time to accept that.
 

DunnoBro

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IMO what jigglypuff needs is a rest that is worth going far at higher percents

Making rollout chargeable and shield cancellable (defense curl :3) would be my idea. Would still be risky af but more reliably on an airdodge punish or landing challenge. It would give her some semblance of a grounded game too.

"Oh you jumped away? Lemme just charge rollout on my way down then cancel into shield..."

Canceling into sing oos would also be a hilarious punish to grab attempts
 
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ARGHETH

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https://mobile.twitter.com/2Scoops_Nicko/status/855284460757041152

Nicko's matchup chart for Shulk is here, apparently it's his "final" one.
In replies:
Corrin/Marth: "pin invalidates any kind of zone pressure shulk wants to do on corrin. marth is forced to kind of just sit there and take it"

Why Shulk beats MK: "mks whole thing that makes him a good char is that his neutral is very linear but if he wins neutral once he wins.

againest shulk that's not the case since shield mode allows me to live the times that mk wins neutral"

Yoshi: "tbh I thought it was slight advantage for shulk but yoshi just kind of gets into shulks zone and it's really hard to get yoshi off"

Mario: "this mu is very similar to marth vs wario in brawl where in theory mario gets walled out but he has the air speed to combat it.

Plus shulks walling out game isn't really good due to bad startup so mario can't play Playa pure powershield game and shulk cant do anything"
 
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PK Bash

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Thing about Rest is that you can use it, sucessfully, and then get punished for using it sucessfully unless you were lucky enough to get a star ko. Frame 1 kill moves are great and all but when they get yourself killed as well you have to wonder just how great it is?

We all like to bemoan Zelda because she is a god-forsaken character, but we all know that every scene has that one Zelda who makes everyone look bad lol. Zelda wants to be a walling character that thrives on punishing approaches, so it's a shame she can't properly force them without overcommitting herself. In reality she is mostly limited to a counterpoking game punishing overextensions or aggressively controlling space with nair in neutral. It does kind of work I guess but not very well. Some dangerous oos options though, she has got that going for her even if they're slow. Ultimately though the character has more issues than a dodgy Din's Fire - making that and Phantom better would be a step in the right direction but wouldn't really fix her.
 

Emblem Lord

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How Ryu beats shulk, but Marth doesn't completely blows my mind.

I disagree of course.
 

Thinkaman

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As for Duck Hunt, whenever I think of them, I see a projectile zoner that is by far the closest to being a "normal" character.

Most of the other zoners (Villager, Robin, the Links, etc.) have tether grabs. Mega Man doesn't have a tether but has one unique (yet admittedly effective) move take up three slots. Duck Hunt's kit, aside from the smash attacks, is pretty orthodox, and I wonder if the unreliable smashes were always supposed to be a way to balance that out. Maybe that's the case for Mega Man too, who lands an f-smash once in a blue moon in tournaments.
Well, the catch is that can is by far the most exotic and complex projectile. (and has lots of grab/throw synergy) It makes sense that the rest of the character is relatively "ordinary" and centered around this key unique trait.
 
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