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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Browny

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Thoughts on the Smash Bootcamp:

Relevant to what we were discussing earlier: listening to the commentators on the first Void/Salem match, I was struck by how these top commentators, and even Dabuz, literally think Bayo Nair is more or less uncontestable. Dabuz thought that needles on landing was the only favorable thing Void could do do combat Salem spamming Nair.

So lo and behold, when Void upsmashes through Nair for the kill, not only was the panel surprised, they chalked it up to Sheiks hand invincibility. It was literally a demonstration of how little even top players and commentators know Bayo’s hitboxes and what can be punished. These are the kinds of things that trickle down to the average players conscious perception of the game, and goes a long way to making Bayo seem better than she is.

Like, in Game 5, none of them noticed that Void literally beat Bayo’s ascending Nair with uptilt which nearly led to an upsmash from Void.

Anyway, I’ll post some individual match hot takes later.
You are currently living my pain that I went through in 2009-2010 when it came to Lucario and Sonic.

The Brawl back room had private threads to discuss characters before the tier list came out and those threads were made public and it gave a rare glimpse into how little many people knew about other characters, just because they were good at a game doesn't mean they were remotely qualified to make a tier list.

The so-called 'smartest' players in the world actually, unironically, thought that sonic lost 0-100 to ROB because Robs dtilt was fast and sonic 'has no priority' as the only reason. The current coach of Zero was on the record arguing that Lucario sucked and was low tier because 'aura is a crutch for bad players' HE ACTUALLY SAID THIS. It wasn't one player, dozens of them all choosing to be ignorant since learning how other characters work was just too hard.

The moral of the story is, don't ever expect top players to know details about other characters.
 
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Nu~

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Don't expect anyone to know anything about other characters, honestly. That's why people are always disagreeing with other people's opinions; People mostly know about their own character. So when people make a tier list or matchup spread, people are always disagreeing with it.
Well that’s not necessarily the reason...

Having a different perspective isn’t a sign of ignorance
 
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Nu~

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I never said it was.
Don't expect anyone to know anything about other characters, honestly. That's why people are always disagreeing with other people's opinions; People mostly know about their own character. So when people make a tier list or matchup spread, people are always disagreeing with it.
So what does this imply? You’re treating disagreement as something primarily done out of character ignorance. Which ain’t true
 

Wintermelon43

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So what does this imply? You’re treating disagreement as something primarily done out of character ignorance. Which ain’t true
No, that's not the way it works, I was just saying that people know more about the characters they use than other ones, and that misinformation isn't just a top player thing.

That post probably comes off the wrong way though so I'll delete it.
 
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Minordeth

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Well her hands being invincible was definitely a part of it, but also hitbox/hurtbox interaction. Sheik runs in low AND then ducks low before her u-smash. Allowing her to completely avoid Bayo nair hitbox. I promise you that it would not work with EVERY character. You just need to know what characters can challenge with what move.

Some characters really would not be able to consistently challenge.
Sure, but of all the characters, Sheik can contest it with quite a bit more than most. I agree that invincible hands helps, but Sheik can also contest with Utilt, which happened in that same set, and got glossed over. My point was more focused on the lack of knowledge in the commentariat.

I know you’ve seen the Nair hitbox, and while Bayo’s hurtbox extension on the bottom isn’t huge, it’s significant enough to be vulnerable to a wide variety of things on multiple characters. Or, worst case scenario, make a favorable trade if she insists on doing the Bullet Art extension to descend.

Now, maybe not every character can challenge it, but a good portion can. The ones that can’t lose relevance in the meta game. C’est la vie.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Being skilled at the game does not mean they are always right or have the best knowledge.

Example M2K for PM said Link’s grab was unpublishable if he whiffed. This was proven with frame data to be false. If he said Smash 4 Falcon if he whiffed is hard or nigh impossible to punish on a whiff i’d Believe him.

Same with personal biases, ESAM is one of the best Pikachus but his opinions in each game have been a lot more positive than other pikas in general.

It’s a personal determination of they have value or not.
 
D

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See? this is why I don't fight for Puff not being last, even if I do not believe she is.
:196:
I am not sure if Puff is last or second worst. It is certain that with Miis or without Miis Puff is either worst or second ( I am not guaranteeing her worst ). I just think Puff's rest still not being that strong, her recovery being nerfed hard, and her light weight as well as her being slow and inconsistent really harms her. She does have some positives ( good edge guarding game and back air being a solid kill move ). It is fine to argue with Puff's placement.

Just for the heck of it.

I'd go with Puff (Worst), Swordfighter (2nd), Brawler (3rd), Jr. (4th) and Zelda (5th). If you're discounting the Miis (I don't since they're still characters), then Dedede (4th) and Ganon (5th).
After which comes Wii Fit and Falco, but that's another story.

I'm kind of surprised no one mentions Jr. when it comes to the bottom tiers, considering how much goes against him.
:4drmario:,:4wiifit:,:4ganondorf:,:4bowserjr:,:4dedede:,:4zelda:,:4miigun:,:4miibrawl:,(:4jigglypuff:/:4miisword:)

I am not sure who is better, Mii Sword Fighter or Puff. I personally think all of these characters have terrible match ups and all are the slow, easily punishable characters in the game. ( Except Doctor Mario and Jigglypuff.
Can not wait for V4 tier list, thank you Smash Backroom!
 
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Minordeth

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Being skilled at the game does not mean they are always right or have the best knowledge.

Example M2K for PM said Link’s grab was unpublishable if he whiffed. This was proven with frame data to be false. If he said Smash 4 Falcon if he whiffed is hard or nigh impossible to punish on a whiff i’d Believe him.

Same with personal biases, ESAM is one of the best Pikachus but his opinions in each game have been a lot more positive than other pikas in general.

It’s a personal determination of they have value or not.
As if on cue, Venia released his updated Greninja chart and it’s... very optimistic. Basically, he thinks Gren loses no MUs and goes even with Sheik, and has a slight advantage over Bayo and Rosa, among other things.

I wasn’t quite expecting that much optimism. He has some justifications, even if they are somewhat coy.

For Sheik, he said he has been labbing with “hurtbox shifting and percents” which is vague, but his conclusion is Greninja does better than people think.

For Bayo his reasoning goes that Bayo can’t really catch him, and she can’t deal with camping/zoning well. He made further notes that if a Greninja knows their SDI well and Shadow sneak cancel, it forces Bayo to guess the follow up, which another commenter noted that it ruins her low and mid percent consistency.

As for Rosa, he basically says that Greninja’s neutral naturally gets rid of Luma, which makes the MU quite a bit easier.

Anyway, go figure that in the same week you have Zero place Greninja at 33rd, Venia comes in saying the frog is top 10. Smash 4!
 

chaos11011

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My biggest complaint with MU Ratios is that players list all the counterplay they can do VS an opponent yet puts the opponent's character in a vacuum.

Venia's chart is a good example of this. Yes, Greninja can hurtbox shift, but what about if Sheik does the same to avoid your moves? Yes, Greninja can kill Luma easily, but what about when Rosa baits and whiff punishes your attempts to remove Luma?

Players list a plethora of complex options for their character yet only view the opposing character at face value.
 
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ReVerbIsSuperb

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Oh man. And over here I thought I was optimistic about Greninja lol. But real talk, after talking to Venia so much personally, his chart is more or less about what I thought he would post if he were to make one so I'm not as surprised as I would have been.

Not sure if I buy into the whole "losing 0 MUs" thing, but I can understand how he believes Greninja with the overall best mobility in the game allows him to be a threat to every character to the extent where he isn't shut out by anyone hard enough (no -2 MUs). This might be the main thing driving him to consider MUs such as Sheik/Fox/Sonic (some of the only few characters that can actually keep up with him in speed and still have good frame data & comparable advantage states to boot) not -1 anymore like he previously considered months ago.

Not to mention how much he actually studies specific or little MU interactions and looks at things deeper than just what you would consider on the surface (hurtbox shifting is a good example; Gren has a low running animation & dtilt & dash attack lower his profile while using them, pretty useful for Bayo nair for one).

Venia may come off as crazy af, especially to people who don't understand the character, but to a certain extent, I can kinda see what he's going for with some of this. Well, at least when you view it from his perspective. He told me it took him a very long time to see things this way, he actually wasn't always *this* optimistic about Greninja either.

When he detects a particular strength or scenario, he may or may not have a case of overrating strengths and underrating weaknesses to where he makes certain things seem more oppressive than they really are, but he's pretty solid at backing up what he says. I can't say I outright agree with everything, but knowing how Venia works, I see where he is coming from and why he thinks the way that he does.

He's been tearing through everyone in New York lately, so I can see how he is able to gain so much confidence in his play and his character. I genuinely hope he is able to travel out of state soon with the way he has been playing and turn some heads. Not even just him either, Greninja's everywhere been slowly racking up results on the side, who knows what'll happen if they all travel to the US on a consistent basis. While I haven't reached Venia's level of "wokeness", I'll continue to remain optimistic about the character's future at the very least.
 
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Y2Kay

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LMAO Venia's chart is hilarious. I've been pestering that man for YEARS for a chart, and I was frankly not disappointed.

Venia's has been wilding out in NY recently. Typical bad match ups like Sheik, Fox, and Sonic no longer trip him up. He's transcended and left us mortal frog players behind tbh.

Can we get him on a 2GG compendium or something so we can ship his behind to a major?

:150:
 

Illusion.

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Greninja’s weaknesses are way too blatant for him to be a top tier character/lose no MUs.
 

Ziodyne 21

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To think there was a period when we called ESAM's Pikachu MU charts and opinions the most "overly optimistic" around. Lol is this MU chart from some alternate reality where Greninja never got mauled by the nerf-bat when the Smash 4 Wii U version was realeased?
 
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Y2Kay

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It kind of goes without saying that Greninja has weaknesses and loses some matchups. The MU chart easy fodder even by CCI standards. Anyone who knows Venia well enough shouldn't be surprised by this chart. I will mention that Greninja players have been getting a lot better at fighting Sheik, Sonic, and Fox as a whole. The only MU's I'm still worried about are Cloud and Diddy Kong.

:150:
 

Nathan Richardson

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Sorry to change the subject (charizard fanboy here) but where do you think charizard fits when it comes to MUs? Which characters do you think zard's better than?

edit: I saw the V4 topic was up and almost freaked out thinking I broke the rules uh heh ^^;
 
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Aegislasher

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Sorry to change the subject (charizard fanboy here) but where do you think charizard fits when it comes to the tier list? Which characters do you think zard's better than?
I'd say defintely better than the bottom 11 he is at in the third list. I'm predicting a rise from him in the next one. I think he is better than the Pits but I think that the Pits suck and I also suck at this game, so take it with a grain of salt. Back to lurking the thread again.
 
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D

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Time for everyone to get to the new thread soon, can not wait for the tier placings! So how is the V4 Backroom Tier List coming along?
 

Wintermelon43

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Before this thread is closed, I want to say one last thing: Marth and Lucina are overrated and Pac-Man is underrated :)

Alright, goodbye old thread.
 
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