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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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D

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I am going to make a bold, contoversal opinion on the new tier list that many of you will think I am crazy for stating.







Bayo will be #1
I think we all know that, her great results and match ups, as well as her zero to death combo prove that.

Hopefully not, commentators were very painfully biased against Bayonetta. I'm not sure if I can endure another year of that much complaining, onstream, coming from the only people whose words are heard while the games are going on.
:196:
Bayonetta is a controversial character ( a lot are saying she is the best or not the best ). Personally I think she is the best character. Hopefully the moderators keep the complaining in check in the next thread.
 
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TDK

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I doubt it'll happen, ever, but I think Puff is better than Mii Brawler/Swordfighter/maybe even Zelda and I hope she isn't last. But she will be.
 

ぱみゅ

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I doubt it'll happen, ever, but I think Puff is better than Mii Brawler/Swordfighter/maybe even Zelda and I hope she isn't last. But she will be.
FWIW, I do not think she's dead last and didn't vote for that.
1111 for both Swordfighter and Brawler Miis' movesets just do not make sense and Zelda is straight-up not functional.
DeDeDe might be worse if his weaknesses get exploited more properly, but I won't be entirely convinced until that is universally proven.

I just believe she has some good tools and can do better than those 3.
But majority doesn't think so and fighting otherwise would be so draining it's just not worth it.
:196:
 

Krysco

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And then there's me who thinks the Mii's shouldn't even be voted on a tier list since they're unnecessarily restricted be it moveset or size/weight. Plus damn near no one uses them anyways, partially because of those restrictions. As for the Bayo bit, she has good tools that are also irritating to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised if Brawl ICies got similarly talked down upon. Maybe not though since as punishing as ICies were, they still weren't MK.
 

FamilyTeam

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I think calling Zelda "not functional" is wrong, frankly.
Her moveset is a bit nonsensical in how it (doesn't) synergise with itself very well and she's riddled with weaknesses, but frankly she's the only one of the Bottom Tiers who I can say has a real "complete" package.
She can work her way around in neutral because, although limited, she has tools and some movement to work there, her edgeguarding and ledgetrapping game is definitely not too shabby, she has loads of ways to confirm into Up Air, she has a hoo-hah, she has a pretty good grab game all things considered, Back Throw is a great kill throw, a great recovery that she can even ledge cancel to aid in her movement in platform stages (believe me, it really helps) and doubles as a very strong kill option, an invincible reflector that doubles as a pretty okay move, pretty good Smashes (Forward Smash is deceptively safe and strong, Up Smash is iffy but it's definitely very strong, Down Smash is weak but very fast and has a really dangerous angle) and although hard to land, she definitely doesn't lack kill moves aside from those, seeing all of her aerials kill very well, Tipper FTilt is extremely strong, Down Tilt confirms into Up Air pretty nicely, Back Throw is very strong and under extreme circumstances you can use Up Tilt to get a kill off the top.
There very much is something here.
Are these perfect and infallible? Of course not. She's still a bit slow to maneuver compared to faster characters, rage can make her get her confirms harder and she still has a terrible disadvantage state. But at least there's some glimmer of hope here.
 

Lord Dio

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^
Zelda is the bottom tier who has the most feasible chance of making it out of bottom tier into bottom low, imo.

Another day, another tier list. early afternoon? Should be around to say goodbye to this thread.
 
D

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My question is who is going to be top five? It will probably involve ( not in order ) Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik and Sonic ( maybe Fox ).
Here is my guess: :4bayonetta2:,:4cloud2:,:4sheik:,:4diddy:,(:4sonic:/:4fox:).

What are your thoughts?

FWIW, I do not think she's dead last and didn't vote for that.
1111 for both Swordfighter and Brawler Miis' movesets just do not make sense and Zelda is straight-up not functional.
DeDeDe might be worse if his weaknesses get exploited more properly, but I won't be entirely convinced until that is universally proven.

I just believe she has some good tools and can do better than those 3.
But majority doesn't think so and fighting otherwise would be so draining it's just not worth it.
:196:
Puff is actually good at edge guarding sometimes ( Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Bowser Junior, Ganondorf and Ike are some examples ), and rest is still deadly with rage. Zelda is straight up not functional? She can do still preform against high tiers if her player is skilled enough. We will see if Puff will not be the worst character, interesting post.
 

Das Koopa

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I think it's fair to point out that the commentary is biased because it's a Summit event. There's not really any restraint involved in those, especially when it doesn't have an impact on official rankings.
 

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Zelda's neutral is bad, can't approach, force approaches, or defend against approaches as her defensive tools are slow or don't cover enough space. And her advantage state isn't stellar either.
Her grab is as slow as tether grabs but has range slightly above average, and her Dthrow can be DI'd to make it hard, if not impossible to connect (I know being just "hard" is not an issue, but requiring a stepdash is a different level of "hard").
She gets juggled forever due to her floatiness, doesn't have safe landing options, and while Nayru's Love is a good get-out tool, it gets easily baited and punished. And she's pretty light so she'll die early.

I know she has some good things, Dtilt is a very good poke and leads to kill combos and frametraps, Ftilt is ok, Utilt is ok, Fsmash is ok.... but I simply don't see her tools being reliable at all in the long run.

And it's not like Jigglypuff is reliable either, but if you have all the odds against you anyway, having setups into a ridiculous triumph card is better than having none, like Zelda and DeDeDe.



Also, Jigglypuff is dead last because the tier list is a voting process, a VAST MAJORITY thinks Jigglypuff is last, and is not worth to argue otherwise. This post is merely expressing my opinion, not trying to convince anyone to change their minds about the joke character.
:196:
 

Gunla

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I think calling Zelda "not functional" is wrong, frankly.
Her moveset is a bit nonsensical in how it (doesn't) synergise with itself very well and she's riddled with weaknesses, but frankly she's the only one of the Bottom Tiers who I can say has a real "complete" package.
She can work her way around in neutral because, although limited, she has tools and some movement to work there, her edgeguarding and ledgetrapping game is definitely not too shabby, she has loads of ways to confirm into Up Air, she has a hoo-hah, she has a pretty good grab game all things considered, Back Throw is a great kill throw, a great recovery that she can even ledge cancel to aid in her movement in platform stages (believe me, it really helps) and doubles as a very strong kill option, an invincible reflector that doubles as a pretty okay move, pretty good Smashes (Forward Smash is deceptively safe and strong, Up Smash is iffy but it's definitely very strong, Down Smash is weak but very fast and has a really dangerous angle) and although hard to land, she definitely doesn't lack kill moves aside from those, seeing all of her aerials kill very well, Tipper FTilt is extremely strong, Down Tilt confirms into Up Air pretty nicely, Back Throw is very strong and under extreme circumstances you can use Up Tilt to get a kill off the top.
There very much is something here.
Are these perfect and infallible? Of course not. She's still a bit slow to maneuver compared to faster characters, rage can make her get her confirms harder and she still has a terrible disadvantage state. But at least there's some glimmer of hope here.
Her original design document was that she would switch between Zelda and Sheik, with Sheik racking up combos and Zelda having strong kill options. As a whole Sakurai hasn't really made drastically huge adjustments to non-clones over the years, giving exceptions to Falco, Luigi, Ganondorf and Young/Toon Link here and there. Hell, Doc as a whole isn't really hugely different beyond some simple basics and he was put on the backburner for this game.

Ultimately, one of the things that wasn't really ever worked out was what happens when Zelda loses that switch option, which is precisely what happened this game. During development it was clear they intended to keep the mechanic, but it was switched because of hardware issues. So what happens when half of your intended arsenal suddenly disappears? She wasn't ever exactly fundamentally adjusted in terms of having something to circumvent the fact that while she has some strong options she lacks the mobility and good buttons that many other characters just have. With Transform in mind, her rather strangely designed kit makes a bit of sense, but now that it's gone it feels very much strange and incomplete because her options were taken away thanks to hardware limitations.

In the end, yes, she does have a few things, but from a design standpoint her completeness was having a second set of skills that ultimately proved to be laughably superior. It's true that she's gotten many a buff, but for her to be really something special, she'd need to recieve a massive overall set of tune-ups or an outright fundamental design change come next game.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I think it's fair to point out that the commentary is biased because it's a Summit event. There's not really any restraint involved in those, especially when it doesn't have an impact on official rankings.

It's kinda sad that bias and hate still exist for Bayo.
I mean yeah I get it she has very strong tools and can be annoying to fight .
But so does Cloud, so does Diddy, it ost off the course if being a top tier character in a fighting game

Bayo is a far cry from Brawl MK where that one character was competely dominant at everyting, on anyone, all the time.

I think at this point its become crystal clear Bayo can be beaten and countered just like any other character in this game
 
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Hat N' Clogs

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My question is who is going to be top five? It will probably involve ( not in order ) Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik and Sonic ( maybe Fox ).
Here is my guess: :4bayonetta2:,:4cloud2:,:4sheik:,:4diddy:,(:4sonic:/:4fox:).

What are your thoughts?
My guess of the top 5 is: :4bayonetta: > :4cloud2: > :4diddy: > :4sheik: > :4fox:
My PERSONAL top 5 is: :4bayonetta: > :4diddy: > :4cloud2: >>> :4sheik: > :4fox:

Bayo, Cloud, and Diddy are too meta central to NOT be top 3. If any of them is outside of the top 3, I'm going to be shocked. As far as Sheik and Fox are concerned, they have a ton of strengths, with Sheik also being 4th best on Das Koopa's tournament results rating system at 325 points, and Fox being in 5th at 278 points.

I don't think Sonic will be top 5. Despite his high tournaments results score and being just behind Fox at 270 points on Das Koopa's system, he has very lacking KO setups. The KO moves Sonic has do have decent knockback, but it's still hard to KO with him because Sonic's KO options aren't as numerous as other top tiers and he has a lot of trouble in matchup against 2/3 top 3 members, with only Diddy Kong being even-ish.

My personal tier list has Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, and Fox as the top 5, and I also think that will be the top 5 on the official tier list. I think the next group that is just outside the top 5 on the official list will be :4sonic:, :rosalina:, :4mario:, :4zss:, :4ryu:, and :4mewtwo:. This leaves :4marth:/:4lucina: as the top tier gatekeepers.
 
D

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I hope Falcon, Luigi and Greninja all raise some spots; they deserve it. Captain Falcon is actually used more than some other high tiers and actually has a strong KO potential. Falcon warrants a move into the middle of the high tier, though his match up chart is not great for a high tier and he has an exploitable recovery. Luigi needs to be in the top section of high tier. Elegant is actually doing pretty good with him and his match up chart is actually not that bad. ZeRo thinks Luigi is a top tier ( which is a stretch ). Greninja also warrants a move to the middle or top section of high tier, has a really good a match up chart, good recovery, and a soild KO option. Greninja has been used a lot recently and I think he should move higher.
My guess of the top 5 is: :4bayonetta: > :4cloud2: > :4diddy: > :4sheik: > :4fox:
My PERSONAL top 5 is: :4bayonetta: > :4diddy: > :4cloud2: >>> :4sheik: > :4fox:

Bayo, Cloud, and Diddy are too meta central to NOT be top 3. If any of them is outside of the top 3, I'm going to be shocked. As far as Sheik and Fox are concerned, they have a ton of strengths, with Sheik also being 4th best on Das Koopa's tournament results rating system at 325 points, and Fox being in 5th at 278 points.

I don't think Sonic will be top 5. Despite his high tournaments results score and being just behind Fox at 270 points on Das Koopa's system, he has very lacking KO setups. The KO moves Sonic has do have decent knockback, but it's still hard to KO with him because Sonic's KO options aren't as numerous as other top tiers and he has a lot of trouble in matchup against 2/3 top 3 members, with only Diddy Kong being even-ish.

My personal tier list has Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, and Fox as the top 5, and I also think that will be the top 5 on the official tier list. I think the next group that is just outside the top 5 on the official list will be :4sonic:, :rosalina:, :4mario:, :4zss:, :4ryu:, and :4mewtwo:. This leaves :4marth:/:4lucina: as the top tier gatekeepers.
Thank you for responding, I really appreciate it!

So you believe in Marcina? Interesting, they are kind of the same. Having trouble with two of the best characters ( Bayonetta and Cloud ) who are very common characters is actually quite threatening for a top five character.

So what do you think of the top five low tier?

Mine is :4zelda:,:4miigun:,:4miibrawl:,(:4jigglypuff:/:4miisword:)
 
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Hat N' Clogs

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I hope Falcon, Luigi and Greninja all raise some spots; they deserve it. Captain Falcon is actually used more than some other high tiers and actually has a strong KO potential. Falcon warrants a move into the middle of the high tier, though his match up chart is not great for a high tier and he has an exploitable recovery. Luigi needs to be in the top section of high tier. Elegant is actually doing pretty good with him and his match up chart is actually not that bad. ZeRo thinks Luigi is a top tier ( which is a stretch ). Greninja also warrants a move to the middle or top section of high tier, has a really good a match up chart, good recovery, and a soild KO option. Greninja has been used a lot recently and I think he should move higher.


Thank you for responding, I really appreciate it!

So you believe in Marcina? Interesting, they are kind of the same. Having trouble with two of the best characters ( Bayonetta and Cloud ) who are very common characters is actually quite threatening for a top five character.

So what do you think of the top five low tier?

Mine is :4zelda:,:4miigun:,:4miibrawl:,(:4jigglypuff:/:4miisword:)
Marcina's results have dropped off considerably lately. When you look at Das Koopa's tournament results thread, their total points are much lower than other top tiers. They have good strengths, with great range being the main pro between both of them. However, with Cloud being the definitive swordie, Marcina gets outshined. They do still have great strengths that make them viable, such as incredible spacing potential and KO setups. However, they're not popular enough to be certainly top tier, nor do they have enough strengths to be top tiers for sure. They're close, but I think that they could fall out of top tier.

For matchups, they do pretty well against Mario and Ryu, slightly winning both iirc. However, those two still don't do THAT terribly against Marcina. Marcina's worst MUs are Diddy and Sonic iirc. The other top tiers are varying levels of tough/disadvantageous.

MKLeo is playing less Marth and more Cloud now, which is a bad sign as well. Mr. E uses Marth and Lucina equally, and is a great player but isn't quite in the top echelon. Other than that, I can't name a Marth or Lucina main that's getting results, and even then MKLeo is more of a Cloud main now.

Could still be top tier but idk.

----------
If we include Miis, I mostly agree. If we don't, then I would have Puff as the worst, Ganon/Zelda right above that, King Dedede as the best of the absolute bottom tiers, and then a toss-up between Dr. Mario and Wii Fit Trainer as the 5th worst.
 
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TDK

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I don't even think Marth is the best high tier, let alone top tier. It's pretty telling that his two best "mains" primarily use Cloud and Lucina. Consistency matters in this game, and Marth's inconsistency can really bog him down.

Also please put Marth and Lucina right next to each other, I'm begging you.
 

blackghost

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I think it's fair to point out that the commentary is biased because it's a Summit event. There's not really any restraint involved in those, especially when it doesn't have an impact on official rankings.
I get what you are saying but i really dont care. Smash players that dont know better or assume commentators have solid knowledge (they dont) about characters and they will conclude that its ok to john about bayo. I see other communities doing this sort of commentary at locals with unknowns on the mic. Never at large events. And never prominent commenrators. James chen, ketchup mustard, yipes, petra, sajam, and others would never give a performance like that in a large event. Injustice commentators would commentate about superman having a lot of tools but being beatable or what thr opppennt should do. Marvel 3 has done the same thing for dante in infinite and phoenix in the past.
Commentators are the opinioms people carry as facts. Everyone doesnt go to smashboards or reddit to learn or even twitter. It should concern people in our communiry that we cannot get unbiased commentary at large events. Its a turn off to watch. Its time to grow up smash 4 becuase bayo aint going anywhere nintendo like her ip shell be in the next smash game as well. Deal with it.
 

Hat N' Clogs

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Honestly, at this point Corrin might have better results than Marcina.
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
...
Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75

Donkey Kong: 68
Toon Link: 61.75
R.O.B.: 58.25
Lucina: 55
...

Well I'll be darned. You're right haha
 
D

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Is Ness returning to high tier again?
Honestly, at this point Corrin might have better results than Marcina.
Corrin confirmed best Fire Emblem character in Smash? Awesome!

Marcina's results have dropped off considerably lately. When you look at Das Koopa's tournament results thread, their total points are much lower than other top tiers. They have good strengths, with great range being the main pro between both of them. However, with Cloud being the definitive swordie, Marcina gets outshined. They do still have great strengths that make them viable, such as incredible spacing potential and KO setups. However, they're not popular enough to be certainly top tier, nor do they have enough strengths to be top tiers for sure. They're close, but I think that they could fall out of top tier.

For matchups, they do pretty well against Mario and Ryu, slightly winning both iirc. However, those two still don't do THAT terribly against Marcina. Marcina's worst MUs are Diddy and Sonic iirc. The other top tiers are varying levels of tough/disadvantageous.

MKLeo is playing less Marth and more Cloud now, which is a bad sign as well. Mr. E uses Marth and Lucina equally, and is a great player but isn't quite in the top echelon. Other than that, I can't name a Marth or Lucina main that's getting results, and even then MKLeo is more of a Cloud main now.

Could still be top tier but idk.

----------
If we include Miis, I mostly agree. If we don't, then I would have Puff as the worst, Ganon/Zelda right above that, King Dedede as the best of the absolute bottom tiers, and then a toss-up between Dr. Mario and Wii Fit Trainer as the 5th worst.
Yes. When V3 came out, Marth was doing great and was considered a top tier. I am aware MKLeo uses Cloud more and is not Mr. E inconsistent ( I may be wrong ). Marth's recovery is actually pretty exploitable and can get edge guarded. People seem to under utilize edge guarding Marth. His approach is also not the best. And I personally think Wii Fit Trainer is worse than Doctor Mario. Doctor Mario is not bottom five in my opinion.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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If anything I see Ryu dropping down quite a bit. He just has not been getting really reasonable results for his current placing. Luigi and Corrin having much more recent sucess than Ryu overall

Also Mario will likey drop a few spots . Can you really see him as #6 now? Also ZSS back up at #10 the very least
 
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MrGameguycolor

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So what do you think of the top five low tier?

Mine is :4zelda:,:4miigun:,:4miibrawl:,(:4jigglypuff:/:4miisword:)
Just for the heck of it.

I'd go with Puff (Worst), Swordfighter (2nd), Brawler (3rd), Jr. (4th) and Zelda (5th). If you're discounting the Miis (I don't since they're still characters), then Dedede (4th) and Ganon (5th).
After which comes Wii Fit and Falco, but that's another story.

I'm kind of surprised no one mentions Jr. when it comes to the bottom tiers, considering how much goes against him.
 

Hat N' Clogs

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If anything I see Ryu dropping down quite a bit. He just has not been getting really reasonable results for his current placing. Luigi and Corrin having much more recent sucess than Ryu overall

Also Mario will likey drop a few spots . Can you really see him as #6 now? Also ZSS back up at #10 the very least
Yeah, Ryu's got great combo potential but...he can't seem to get in the results. It doesn't help that his recovery is weak and his range is mediocre.

On my personal tier list right now Mario is 8th/9th. I still think he's certainly top 10, based on how he's still top 10 in Das Koopa's tournament results system, he's got a proven combo game thanks to Zenyou, and Ally still does ok in tournaments. It's just that Ally is normally a top 8/12 guy now instead of top 6 guy. You take Zenyou's amazing combo game and Ally's fundamentals...and you get one scary, optimal Mario. The Cloud matchup has made things harder for Mario, but I still believe he's worthy of top 10. And yeah, I'd throw ZSS into top 10 as well. She's slowly climbing back onto the radar.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Yeah, Ryu's got great combo potential but...he can't seem to get in the results. It doesn't help that his recovery is weak and his range is mediocre.



On my personal tier list right now Mario is 8th/9th. I still think he's certainly top 10, based on how he's still top 10 in Das Koopa's tournament results system, he's got a proven combo game thanks to Zenyou, and Ally still does ok in tournaments. It's just that Ally is normally a top 8/12 guy now instead of top 6 guy. You take Zenyou's amazing combo game and Ally's fundamentals...and you get one scary, optimal Mario. The Cloud matchup has made things harder for Mario, but I still believe he's worthy of top 10. And yeah, I'd throw ZSS into top 10 as well. She's slowly climbing back onto the radar.
Actullay Mario has had a realatively decent record vs Cloud with both Ally and AnTi having solid records vs Cloud maijs It is Sonic and Bayo that are really big stuggles for him and are likely his worst MU's Both of them can easily camp him out all match once they get the lead and Mario can really do anything about it. Both of them are 40:60 for Mario at best.
 
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Hat N' Clogs

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Actullay Mario has had a realatively decent record vs Cloud with both Ally and AnTi having solid records vs Cloud maijs It is Sonic and Bayo that are really big stuggles for him and are likely his worst MU's Both of them can easily camp him out all match once they get the lead and Mario can really do anything about it. Both of them are 40:60 for Mario at best.
He does? That's cool :) I'm super happy to hear that.
Bayo has given Mario some trouble as well, but it's probably not terrible. Mario can still do stuff against Bayo, just not as much as before. Ally used to do pretty well against Bayo mains iirc until he went on his month long break back in the summer.

40:60 at best? I'd probably say it's 40:60 for both best and worst. There's no reason for the MU ratio to not be 40:60 against either of them in the grand scheme of things, especially Sonic. Mario can do things against both, but it's certainly an up hill battle. At least with Bayo, Mario has a faster run speed and faster movement in the air. Against Sonic, on the other hand...he gets out-sped on all fronts aside from frame data. Sonic is Mario's worst MU.
 

Lavani

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And it's not like Jigglypuff is reliable either, but if you have all the odds against you anyway, having setups into a ridiculous triumph card is better than having none, like Zelda and DeDeDe.
I don't know if that's really fair to say when Zelda has Farore's Wind (which can be combo'd into from landing nair or dtilt) as well as lightning kicks. Granted, DI can mess with the former, but Rest sometimes gets Jiggs revenge killed, so it's not like that trump card isn't flawed as well.

Even if she's a pretty incoherent character with a horrible neutral and slow grab, I feel like the combination of both damage racking and killing throw combos from 0-kill% (I'd like to point out that even with DI away, Zelda isn't necessarily required to do anything fancy for dthrow>uair; stepdashing is both character and percent dependent), a difficult-to-abuse recovery, and a number of fast-starting kill options saves her from being the absolute worst. Jiggs' aerial weaving and Rest are also fairly nice I guess; I don't think they have as much merit as what Zelda has, but as it's essentially an argument of "Which pile of crap smells the least offensive?", I'm not particularly firm in my stance or interested in defending it further.

I'm kind of surprised no one mentions Jr. when it comes to the bottom tiers, considering how much goes against him.
Disjoints and real aerials, I guess? I think he's a candidate for bottom 5, but I'd only confidently put :4zelda::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4dedede: there in an unspecified order (ignoring Miis).
 

Minordeth

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Thoughts on the Smash Bootcamp:

Relevant to what we were discussing earlier: listening to the commentators on the first Void/Salem match, I was struck by how these top commentators, and even Dabuz, literally think Bayo Nair is more or less uncontestable. Dabuz thought that needles on landing was the only favorable thing Void could do do combat Salem spamming Nair.

So lo and behold, when Void upsmashes through Nair for the kill, not only was the panel surprised, they chalked it up to Sheiks hand invincibility. It was literally a demonstration of how little even top players and commentators know Bayo’s hitboxes and what can be punished. These are the kinds of things that trickle down to the average players conscious perception of the game, and goes a long way to making Bayo seem better than she is.

Like, in Game 5, none of them noticed that Void literally beat Bayo’s ascending Nair with uptilt which nearly led to an upsmash from Void.

Anyway, I’ll post some individual match hot takes later.
 

The-Technique

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MKLeo is playing less Marth and more Cloud now, which is a bad sign as well. Mr. E uses Marth and Lucina equally, and is a great player but isn't quite in the top echelon. Other than that, I can't name a Marth or Lucina main that's getting results, and even then MKLeo is more of a Cloud main now.
I would actually say that Leo's been switching Cloud off more often as of late. Leo's been almost undefeated in the Bayo matchup since he started going all Marth, and going Meta Knight versus Sonic and Diddy has proven fruitful for the past sets he's played. I'm very likely in the minority but I still feel Cloud is overrated as a singles character.
 

FeelMeUp

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Talked with ShadowPR, Houston's #1 Bayo(and player) a bit about why Nair camping doesn't work while VoiD was playing Salem.
He told me that it doesn't work against Karna because Karna will repeatedly trade Sheik's back air(which does 5% at worst, 7% sometimes, and 8% at best) with Bayo's weak Nair(4%) and the long-term investment is never worth it.

Every character has some option to combat nair camping. It shouldn't be working as much as it has been.
In set 2, Salem gave up doing it against VoiD completely.
 
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Onua

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I would actually say that Leo's been switching Cloud off more often as of late. Leo's been almost undefeated in the Bayo matchup since he started going all Marth, and going Meta Knight versus Sonic and Diddy has proven fruitful for the past sets he's played. I'm very likely in the minority but I still feel Cloud is overrated as a singles character.
You're not alone. I've always personally felt that Cloud was a very overrated character in singles. Despite his ridiculous strengths he still has weaknesses that can be exploited and people are learning more and more on how to exploit said weaknesses. It doesn't surprise me that top level clouds switch off him at times to other characters often.
 

Routa

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So we talking about worst characters, eh?
My view from bottom 5 is :4jigglypuff:/:4miisword:>:4kirby:>:4zelda:>:4pacman:>:4dedede:
Now some may wonder why I have Kirby and Pac-Man so low. Pac-Man is mainly 'cause of his whole character being carried by his fruit. Without it he looses ability to deal damage and kill. It doesn't help that opponent is sble to steal it with well times AD. Add to that he gets camped rather easy and you can see why I don't think highly about him.
Kinda same thing with Kirby, but at very least he has damage he can deal and ok kill options, but is it enough. I commonly hear people asking "Why play Doc when you can play Mario?"... So I ask "Why play Kirby when you can play Luigi?". Just like Doc he is overshadowed by better version of him. Main reasons why I think Doc is a bit better than Kirby has to do with his superior spacing game and deadlier kill options.
I am aware of their ok MU spreads, but when it comes to ranking I personally prefer ranking by what the character brings to the table and what are its problems.
And back to lurking.
 

Rizen

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The term Nair 'camping' its self shows the strategy doesn't work. You don't camp with Nair. Low landing lag aerials are landing options and still very punishable. Link for example has a similar Nair to Bayo's in purpose: landing and long lasting hitbox for walling. Link is really good at platform camping in part due to Nair because it's a mix up. You FF Nair for cover and to punish when appropriate. You're also planting bombs, throwing bombs down, using other aerials as spacing requires, angling boomerang down and firing arrows in situations when the opponent's to the side, double jump mix ups and FF air dodge>tether the ledge as an escape.
Nair is very good as a reactionary tool. It still loses to anti airs and good OoS. But if the opponent tries to hop at you FF Nair often hits a common blind spot about 45 degrees above characters or forces an airdodge which have (can't remember) about 20 frames of landing lag (?) for a nice frame advantage punish. If it hits a shield you can buffer a dodge but this is still not what you want to aim for as that can be read and OoS still beats bad spacing. You don't FF Nair on invincible anti aerial characters like Mario and G&W or characters with disjoint. You don't fall right on top, you go for weak angles ideally behind the opponent. And you don't spam Nair, lol. Anyone who does deserves to be punished.
 

FamilyTeam

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Her original design document was that she would switch between Zelda and Sheik, with Sheik racking up combos and Zelda having strong kill options. As a whole Sakurai hasn't really made drastically huge adjustments to non-clones over the years, giving exceptions to Falco, Luigi, Ganondorf and Young/Toon Link here and there. Hell, Doc as a whole isn't really hugely different beyond some simple basics and he was put on the backburner for this game.

Ultimately, one of the things that wasn't really ever worked out was what happens when Zelda loses that switch option, which is precisely what happened this game. During development it was clear they intended to keep the mechanic, but it was switched because of hardware issues. So what happens when half of your intended arsenal suddenly disappears? She wasn't ever exactly fundamentally adjusted in terms of having something to circumvent the fact that while she has some strong options she lacks the mobility and good buttons that many other characters just have. With Transform in mind, her rather strangely designed kit makes a bit of sense, but now that it's gone it feels very much strange and incomplete because her options were taken away thanks to hardware limitations.

In the end, yes, she does have a few things, but from a design standpoint her completeness was having a second set of skills that ultimately proved to be laughably superior. It's true that she's gotten many a buff, but for her to be really something special, she'd need to recieve a massive overall set of tune-ups or an outright fundamental design change come next game.
I actually don't disagree with this at all and I have seen this for a very long time, now.
In fact, the fact that Zelda is separated from Sheik yet she's still balanced like she's tethered to her and clearly suffering because of it is why (emotionally, not in any practical sense) I went from having Sheik as one of my favourite characters to someone I'm really on the fence about. As the years went by, I started growing a preference towards Zelda over her, and it does pain me to see the state she is now.
Zelda alone really needs Sheik, Sheik alone doesn't need Zelda. Zelda still can end up killing at even later percents than Sheik so it's not like she could've ever really been used to end stocks with her design. Zelda without Sheik, while after the buffs she can get ridiculous damage output per neutral victory, still doesn't quite rack up damage as well as Sheik does, and has a harder time doing so. Also...
Zelda's neutral is bad, can't approach, force approaches, or defend against approaches as her defensive tools are slow or don't cover enough space. And her advantage state isn't stellar either.
Her grab is as slow as tether grabs but has range slightly above average, and her Dthrow can be DI'd to make it hard, if not impossible to connect (I know being just "hard" is not an issue, but requiring a stepdash is a different level of "hard").
She gets juggled forever due to her floatiness, doesn't have safe landing options, and while Nayru's Love is a good get-out tool, it gets easily baited and punished. And she's pretty light so she'll die early.
Yes, Pamyuu, I know. These are all very real issues, and I acknowledge them.
But as real as they are, those are traits a lot of the Bottom and Low Tiers already share. These are far from exclusive issues of her and it's not even like she's the character that suffers the most out of them from these.
The limbo that is the question "How does Zelda approach or force approaches" is something that is discussed quite frequently even amongst us, and is part of what makes her current moveset feel "incoherent". That's one of the very real weaknesses she has, but again, it's not as if she has no options. She uses the limited tools she has to more or less play bait-and-punish, forcing somebody to commit to something they shouldn't and then punish their lag with a Grab. Her Grab is hard to get but not exactly "You need to step-dash it for it to be usable", that helps but it's not as if she can't even get out of bed in the morning if you don't do that. I've seen many Zeldas just use the regular grab options and do just relatively fine with it. Once again, I know the hard to get grabs are a definite weakness, but at least she has quite the respectable grab game once you do land a grab, which the good Zeldas tend to get quite a few of during a match, and that's already more than what can be said about a lot of characters in the Bottom 15.

I am probably really stressing this, but I am at no point wanting to deny the fact that Zelda has very real and crippling weaknesses. I am just saying that, despite those weaknesses, she actually has quite a lot going for her, perhaps more stuff than any of the other Bottom Tiers, and those advantages do matter enough to be taken into consideration if somebody's wanting to talk about who the worst characters in the game are. Zelda's in that category, but I believe she's not at all the worst one.
If it matters to any capacity, Nairo said he doesn't feel like he's using the worst character in the game when playing her, and in his last tier list he put her on Low Tier instead of Bottom. It's not like his opinion is necessarily right or end all-be all, but at least somebody out there still somewhat sees what I am seeing.
 

Frihetsanka

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So we talking about worst characters, eh?
My view from bottom 5 is :4jigglypuff:/:4miisword:>:4kirby:>:4zelda:>:4pacman:>:4dedede:
I assume this is Guest XXXX Miis?

I've kind of started to feel that the exact order of bottom 5/bottom 10 doesn't really matter that much. If you pick one of them, you should know that winning will be harder. Whether, say, Jigglypuff is worst, 3rd worst, or 5th worst doesn't make much of a difference, really. I suppose it could be fun to discuss the exact order, although people seem to really disagree on the exact order of bottom 5. Top 5 seems a bit more static in comparison (though there is still room for disagreement).
 

Emblem Lord

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Thoughts on the Smash Bootcamp:

Relevant to what we were discussing earlier: listening to the commentators on the first Void/Salem match, I was struck by how these top commentators, and even Dabuz, literally think Bayo Nair is more or less uncontestable. Dabuz thought that needles on landing was the only favorable thing Void could do do combat Salem spamming Nair.

So lo and behold, when Void upsmashes through Nair for the kill, not only was the panel surprised, they chalked it up to Sheiks hand invincibility. It was literally a demonstration of how little even top players and commentators know Bayo’s hitboxes and what can be punished. These are the kinds of things that trickle down to the average players conscious perception of the game, and goes a long way to making Bayo seem better than she is.

Like, in Game 5, none of them noticed that Void literally beat Bayo’s ascending Nair with uptilt which nearly led to an upsmash from Void.

Anyway, I’ll post some individual match hot takes later.
Well her hands being invincible was definitely a part of it, but also hitbox/hurtbox interaction. Sheik runs in low AND then ducks low before her u-smash. Allowing her to completely avoid Bayo nair hitbox. I promise you that it would not work with EVERY character. You just need to know what characters can challenge with what move.

Some characters really would not be able to consistently challenge.
 

|RK|

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So we talking about worst characters, eh?
My view from bottom 5 is :4jigglypuff:/:4miisword:>:4kirby:>:4zelda:>:4pacman:>:4dedede:
Now some may wonder why I have Kirby and Pac-Man so low. Pac-Man is mainly 'cause of his whole character being carried by his fruit. Without it he looses ability to deal damage and kill. It doesn't help that opponent is sble to steal it with well times AD. Add to that he gets camped rather easy and you can see why I don't think highly about him.
Kinda same thing with Kirby, but at very least he has damage he can deal and ok kill options, but is it enough. I commonly hear people asking "Why play Doc when you can play Mario?"... So I ask "Why play Kirby when you can play Luigi?". Just like Doc he is overshadowed by better version of him. Main reasons why I think Doc is a bit better than Kirby has to do with his superior spacing game and deadlier kill options.
I am aware of their ok MU spreads, but when it comes to ranking I personally prefer ranking by what the character brings to the table and what are its problems.
And back to lurking.
At this point, I'm clearly picking at straws, since if you believe Kirby is bottom 5, that's pretty much that.

But Kirby has shown his ability in MUs at the top level better than most of the existing bottom 10. Both top Sheiks were taken to game 5 vs Kirby (MikeKirby & KID Goggles), Javi was beaten by Silverbean (at a local, for a more recent example). Larry Lurr's Fox has lost to both SmashG0D and Mike Kirby, Ally's Mario to Komota, THUNDER (Ryu who beat Tweek) lost to Poyo twice, and so on.

Speaking of, Poyo got 33rd at an S-tier just this season, with Kirby.

That's more relevant than literally everything anyone in that group of 5 has done. It's also more than Ganondorf and others have done, results-wise.

Just wanted to mention that at least. I've already made peace with the fact that he'll inevitably drop.
 

Wintermelon43

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At this point, I'm clearly picking at straws, since if you believe Kirby is bottom 5, that's pretty much that.

But Kirby has shown his ability in MUs at the top level better than most of the existing bottom 10. Both top Sheiks were taken to game 5 vs Kirby (MikeKirby & KID Goggles), Javi was beaten by Silverbean (at a local, for a more recent example). Larry Lurr's Fox has lost to both SmashG0D and Mike Kirby, Ally's Mario to Komota, THUNDER (Ryu who beat Tweek) lost to Poyo twice, and so on.

Speaking of, Poyo got 33rd at an S-tier just this season, with Kirby.

That's more relevant than literally everything anyone in that group of 5 has done. It's also more than Ganondorf and others have done, results-wise.

Just wanted to mention that at least. I've already made peace with the fact that he'll inevitably drop.
Actually, Sinji has gotten 25th at Smash Con 2017, 33rd at The Big House 7, 33rd at Genesis 4, and 17th at Dreamhack Atlanta just using Pac-Man. Poyo got the same placement at The Big House 7 without the other placements I mentioned (Although he did also get 33rd at CEO Dreamland). So overall Pac-Man has done more than Kirby.

That's still more than Zelda, King Dedede, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff though (and the Miis, but it's not like they've really been given a chance to do anything either)

Anyway, excluding Miis because I don't know crap about them, this would be my bottom 5:

:4bowserjr: (tier differance) - :4jigglypuff:, :4zelda:, :4dedede:/:4ganondorf:

I could see King Dedede and Ganondorf both being last, they have so many bad flaws with them, and a terrible matchup spread, without any results to suggest they're any better. Jigglypuff's matchup spread is still much better than Dedede and Ganondorf's are, and she seems much better in theory to me than Dedede and Ganondorf. She has absoultetly no results though.

I could see Zelda being better than Jigglypuff, but overall I think it's more likely that Jigglypuff is better than Zelda overall. Either way though, those four are the bottom tiers.
 

|RK|

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Actually, Sinji has gotten 25th at Smash Con 2017, 33rd at The Big House 7, 33rd at Genesis 4, and 17th at Dreamhack Atlanta just using Pac-Man. Poyo got the same placement at The Big House 7 without the other placements I mentioned (Although he did also get 33rd at CEO Dreamland). So overall Pac-Man has done more than Kirby.

That's still more than Zelda, King Dedede, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff though (and the Miis, but it's not like they've really been given a chance to do anything either)

Anyway, excluding Miis because I don't know crap about them, this would be my bottom 5:

:4bowserjr: (tier differance) - :4jigglypuff:, :4zelda:, :4dedede:/:4ganondorf:

I could see King Dedede and Ganondorf both being last, they have so many bad flaws with them, and a terrible matchup spread, without any results to suggest they're any better. Jigglypuff's matchup spread is still much better than Dedede and Ganondorf's are, and she seems much better in theory to me than Dedede and Ganondorf. She has absoultetly no results though.

I could see Zelda being better than Jigglypuff, but overall I think it's more likely that Jigglypuff is better than Zelda overall. Either way though, those four are the bottom tiers.
Ah, you're correct about Sinji. Honestly, when it comes to placements, that puts both Pac-Man and Kirby at... maybe the edge of bottom 10, but certainly not deep within it.

But then of course, you have the theory aspect. And most people are under the assumption that every character can run away from Kirby just as effectively as the other, and that all you need to do is take Pac-Man's fruit. I definitely used to believe the Pac-Man thing, but having played with Zage a solid amount, I think Pac-Man's normals are grossly underrated. Not amazing, but he's certainly not helpless without fruit.
 
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