Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

I'm not going to quote the entire post Megamang , but both WaDi and Aba have Sheik as only slight disadvantage, and Diddy as an even MU. So the main worry is Cloud, who is... still pretty awful.

 

[Megamang]

yea, being tall is such a pain vs cloud. Nothing like him jumping over your dtilt and then you get rekt by auto canceled uair.

---


Another cool thing mewtwo has is dair on platforms, specifically vs the aforementioned tall characters. If you get dair'ed from above and miss the tech, as you probably will since you barely have time to hit it on the ground and you are often surprised by the dair choice, you will pop up like a normal dair, but... mewtwo is already elevated on the platform. He gets basically any aerial he wants, maybe a FCSB, and perhaps a slightly charged usmash for the kill. If you airdodge the charged u-smash will also end you quickly. But, to hit it vs anyone but the tallest characters you have to use it at a non-autocanceled height, but the AC height will hit those who try and come up and hit you.

Except cloud, of course his air just eats you alive here. The MU is just painful for mewtwo and I don't see it getting any better. But m2 can really crush cloud in disadvantage so perhaps there is room for solid improvement there.

 

[Browny]

Perhaps if you could reasonably escape dtilt usmash, even a third of the time, you might find this is not so bad.

You called?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN0FmlIDQxE

You know, for as long as fox is kept #1 in melee based on pure theory, Mewtwo should be considered to have the advantage in the diddy matchup because dtilt-usmash is not true at KO % at all ranges except point blank. It never was and it never will be.

Almost a year on and I'm still waiting for M2 players to be able to put that tech into practice. What a difference it might make.

I still believe Mewtwo players have decent room for improvement. The above tech is matchup defining but its not the only big thing that his players can improve upon still to make him a top 5 character. The main one, as I've been saying for years is using shadowball to snipe landing and shield poke.
https://gfycat.com/HatefulAnguishedCottonmouth

That was the old shadowball as well. The buffed one is even easier. There is literally no reason whatsoever for mewtwo players to not throw full charge shadowballs at enemies as they land. You either hit them in landing lag, nuke their shield or if their shield is even the slightest bit weak, it will shield stab. Every time a Mewtwo player decides not to full charge a shadowball or throws it in neutral, in my book it is the exact same as a Diddy player pulling bananas only to throw them off stage repeatedly. You have an extremely powerful tool, choosing not to use it means you should be criticised extremely harshly for making such a stupid choice.

 

[|RK|]

You called?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN0FmlIDQxE

You know, for as long as fox is kept #1 in melee based on pure theory, Mewtwo should be considered to have the advantage in the diddy matchup because dtilt-usmash is not true at KO % at all ranges except point blank. It never was and it never will be.

Almost a year on and I'm still waiting for M2 players to be able to put that tech into practice. What a difference it might make.

I still believe Mewtwo players have decent room for improvement. The above tech is matchup defining but its not the only big thing that his players can improve upon still to make him a top 5 character. The main one, as I've been saying for years is using shadowball to snipe landing and shield poke.
https://gfycat.com/HatefulAnguishedCottonmouth

That was the old shadowball as well. The buffed one is even easier. There is literally no reason whatsoever for mewtwo players to not throw full charge shadowballs at enemies as they land. You either hit them in landing lag, nuke their shield or if their shield is even the slightest bit weak, it will shield stab. Every time a Mewtwo player decides not to full charge a shadowball or throws it in neutral, in my book it is the exact same as a Diddy player pulling bananas only to throw them off stage repeatedly. You have an extremely powerful tool, choosing not to use it means you should be criticised extremely harshly for making such a stupid choice.

Agreed on the shadow ball bit. I'd been using ZeRo to see how a character with bottom 5 airspeed is supposed to get past Shadow Ball, and I found that options were... limited. So I was surprised when most Mewtwo players barely used it. Bless WaDi tbh

 

[Nobie]

One of my takeaways from seeing Leo vs. Zero at 2GG is that Meta Knight can contest Diddy's dtilt with his own. This is important because it means he can directly challenge one of Diddy's strongest tools. MK dtilt is actually one frame faster than Diddy's, has a bit of a disjoint, and MK himself is so short that Diddy can't avoid his offense by crouching. On the flip side, this also means Diddy fair is less effective.

Banana peels are a real threat to MK but Leo knows how to play around them. MK gets stereotyped as having a linear neutral, but perhaps it's more accurate to say that dash attack/dash grab are merely his most dangerous tools in neutral. Or maybe the most dangerous one of all is that perfect pivot.

Leo's use of Dimensional Cape was also really smart. He kept it in his back pocket for a long while. Let's not forget that thing is a kill move, either.

Elegant's Luigi showed me that playing Luigi at a top level requires you to master certain skills to the extent that not everyone, even the very best players in the world, can have consistently--for example, power shielding combined with that excellent frame data and punish game. Luigi requires very specific types of players to succeed, kind of like AmSa and Yoshi in Melee.

Mewtwo I think can do well in any matchup; it just requires the Mewtwo to not feel suffocated. As soon as Mewtwo starts feeling desperate, things fall apart. In a way, I wonder if Mewtwo's high damage output is a double-edged sword, as it makes Mewtwos think, "If I can just get this one thing in, I can even the score," only to fall right into the enemy's sword.

 

[Browny]

Agreed on the shadow ball bit. I'd been using ZeRo to see how a character with bottom 5 airspeed is supposed to get past Shadow Ball, and I found that options were... limited. So I was surprised when most Mewtwo players barely used it. Bless WaDi tbh

WaDi certainly does it well. It's frustrating when commentators will be like 'oh my god what a read with that shadowball snipe' when it wasn't a read at all. He just threw it at them and it was undodgeable because landing lag frames in this game are brutal. Anyone who has ever played a sport should know, kick/throw/hit the ball where the player is running to, not where they are currently. It actually downplays Mewtwos strength and acts like it was the player that got them the kill. When diddy players get a dtilt usmash I don't see them going 'oh wow what a brilliant play' because thats the characters good trait that got the KO more than the player. The exact same should apply to Shadowball because its really not too hard to get it to hit.

Mewtwo was mid-high tier since day one (yes, 1.0 Mewtwo) and I still believe he is top 7 at worst because he is so damn slippery and the widest variety of reliable KO options of any character in this game. Only Ness is a close second in how he has multiple strong aerials/throws/smashes/edgeguards which can all end stocks <100%. Sure a character like DK can reliably end stocks below 70% but Mewtwo just has such a wide range of KO moves that nothing you can do is safe. Mewtwos weakness in his large frame and light weight is required to stop him from being busted.

People should know the golden rule of smash is 'don't get hit' which Mewtwo does perfectly with his speed, aerial movement, safe pokes and teleport. The next best thing is to have as many viable options at any given time, another thing which he has a lot of.

I believe in theory Mewtwo is probably 4th best behind bayo, diddy and cloud. Until people better optimise shadowball though he will remain below sonic/rosalina/sheik etc.

 

[|RK|]

WaDi certainly does it well. It's frustrating when commentators will be like 'oh my god what a read with that shadowball snipe' when it wasn't a read at all. He just threw it at them and it was undodgeable because landing lag frames in this game are brutal. Anyone who has ever played a sport should know, kick/throw/hit the ball where the player is running to, not where they are currently. It actually downplays Mewtwos strength and acts like it was the player that got them the kill. When diddy players get a dtilt usmash I don't see them going 'oh wow what a brilliant' play because thats the characters good trait that got the KO more than the player. The exact same should apply to Shadowball because its really not too hard to get it to hit.

Mewtwo was mid-high tier since day one (yes, 1.0 Mewtwo) and I still believe he is top 7 at worst because he is so damn slippery and the widest variety of reliable KO options of any character in this game. Only Ness is a close second in how he has multiple strong aerials/throws/smashes/edgeguards which can all end stocks <100%. Sure a character like DK can reliably end stocks below 70% but Mewtwo just has such a wide range of KO moves that nothing you can do is safe. Mewtwos weakness in his large frame and light weight is required to stop him from being busted.

People should know the golden rule of smash is 'don't get hit' which Mewtwo does perfectly with his speed, aerial movement, safe pokes and teleport. The next best thing is to have as many viable options at any given time, another thing which he has a lot of.

I believe in theory Mewtwo is probably 4th best behind bayo, diddy and cloud. Until people better optimise shadowball though he will remain below sonic/rosalina/sheik etc.

I'm not sure I agree that Mewtwo day 1 was that good (remembering the days where Kirby beat Mewtwo pretty easily, before patches made the MU progressively worse), but agreed on how good Shadow Ball is...

And also how good Mewtwo is in terms of KO potential. In last hit situations, he's easily one of the most terrifying characters.

 

[HoSmash4]

Corrin has a very good trait in the fact that he can render Sheiks amazing disadvantage to being pretty vulnerable with amazing range, juggle frametraps and super hard punishes at ledge and landing with pin, DFS and other tools.

Needle camping isnt as effective as it seems as corrin can oos pin sheik needles if it is remotely not at max distance. Sheik cant trap corrins landings as well as other characters nor has many good killing tools on him. Combine this with an abundance of kill moves and a kill throw corrin can compete well.

Sheiks main advantage in the mu is her speed and ledgetraping but when her godlike disadvantage is rendered into becoming a complete guessing game versus Corrin she does not win essily.

 

[Deleted member]

My question is is the vs match up considered even or slightly in Bayonetta's favor? What does the thread think?

Pikachu in the comprehensive match up thread though, it makes him look like a top tier ( even though he is not ).

And also how good Mewtwo is in terms of KO potential. In last hit situations, he's easily one of the most terrifying characters.

Especially with rage. Neutral air and foward air is good for dangerous combos, then up grab, Shadow Ball, or a smash attack. Down air off ledge if necessary. If a Mewtwo is skilled enough, the opponent could lose a stock less than thirty seconds. If Wii Fit Trainer faces a skilled Mewtwo than the round could potentially end in less than a minute and a half.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

it makes him look like a top tier ( even though he is not ).

Opinion, m8.

Though, hey, it's a possibility.

 

[KakuCP9]

My question is is the vs match up considered even or slightly in Bayonetta's favor? What does the thread think?

Pikachu in the comprehensive match up thread though, it makes him look like a top tier ( even though he is not ).



Especially with rage. Neutral air and foward air is good for dangerous combos, then up grab, Shadow Ball, or a smash attack. Down air off ledge if necessary. If a Mewtwo is skilled enough, the opponent could lose a stock less than thirty seconds. If Wii Fit Trainer faces a skilled Mewtwo than the round could potentially end in less than a minute and a half.

IIRC Sonic's main issues are that he isn't very good at dealing with foes above him due to his mediocre air game and large/lingering hitboxes that make it difficult for Sonic to use his spin dash game. Bayo has both of these elements in spades. Granted Sonic has a strong grab game due his dash grab and d-throw tech chasing, but without fearsome damage/KO power, the risk/reward and neutral game leans towards Bayonetta.

Also Skeeter Mania for ****s sake, quit flippantly disregarding everything people say as "your opinion m8" when it differs from your's or the general consensus . That is the entire POINT of this damn thread. Someone may see a character or MU in one light based on their experiences with game along with interpretation of the frame data/hitboxes and people will either agree with them or challenge that by offering up opposing evidence or calling said view into question.
Once we see the different ways in which to look at the meta, we can learn and grow as players. Does this discourse occur that cleanly all the time? Definitely not. But just dismissing someone's point as just an opinion is horribly crass even if said point isn't that well conceived. While you don't actively belittle people like some people in this thread, your actions continuously grate the patience of the people here so I suggest you shape up and either find a way to constructively contribute or just be quiet and lurk.

 

[Luigi player]

I think the MK Diddy matchup is worth exploring a bit. Leo made it seem like MK not only has a very strong Edgeguarding game in the matchup, but also is able to consistently put diddy offstage to set up that Edgeguarding game. Combined with his ladder potential and MK has a realistic chance to KO diddy at almost any percent. I’m not exactly saying that MK wins or that it’s an even matchup (I’d probably guess slight diddy favored, but volatile), but it is worth noting that zero has owned Leo other characters for a long time and leo’s MK has totally flipped the script

Something I've noticed is how people struggle against Diddy (Zero) during close- and midrange.
Usually at dtilt to usmash or hoo-ha KO-%s, but not just there. People always seem extremely uncomfortable since Diddy could throw the banana or dtilt and gain a lot from actually hitting either with a banana, dtilt or grab (stagecontrol, another banana, damage racking and putting the opponent into a disadvantaged position which he could punish again (like landing)). Diddys size helps quite a bit as well. Sometimes you just miss your move while he Monkey Flips because of flatting while landing with it.

Not many characters (or people) can really play safe enough around this "zone" Diddy has. Somehow Zero will always get rollreads etc. as well since people are so scared in these scenarious. And since a move (dtilt to usmash) and a grab (uthrow to uair) can KO it'll become even more scary and you feel kinda awkward whenever you are there.

Quite a few people started using platforms and feinting landings, but almost never actually land while Diddy has a banana in his hand. It often makes me happy to see people finally doing things to make him throw it while staying safe so they can try to approach and hit him with less of a risk. But it still happens often enough that they sooner or later stop doing this and just try to mix it up or whatever and go for it while he still has the banana available and they die for it.

Metaknight isn't pressured as much as most characters in these situations. If you watch Leo vs Zero you can see that MK will always get a great reward from hitting a dash attack or grab to throw. Diddy is always put into an awkward position, losing stagecontrol, possibly having to land against MK or get gimped, losing good banana-followups (because of being in the air), etc. MK is also quick, nimble and small enough to be able to combat Diddy in close range. He also usually doesn't miss his moves from Diddy flatting down from landings or whatever since they'll hit low.

He (MK) can also fake out landings and such much more easily with his multiple jumps, while staying mostly safe even if he doesn't manage to make Diddy throw the banana. He can pressure from the air with dairs/crossups and if he doesn't get his opening he will usually be able to retreat without having to land (and get punished from banana/grab).

MK also has his hard punishes (usually ladder combos) so each hit might lead to something amazing, which could always turn around everything and get him kills. As well as being able to follow Diddy offstage far enough to threaten him.

I never agreed or knew why people thought this was largely in Diddys favor, it definitely doesn't feel like that playing as Diddy. Actually it doesn't really matter whatever character you're playing as - as long as MK has his ladder combos against a character 1-2 good hits can win him games. He's always a huge threat.

 

[Megamang]

And just because only dash attack or grab lead to ladders, does NOT mean that these are his only neutral options. Dair knocks you down, is really safe, and if anything in his arsenal leads to dash attack or grab then... well, you get the same conversion with a few extra damage on top, and your neutral gets that much better. I think people focus on those two options because together they 'cover everything', though simply placing a safe hitbox is a great answer. Cstick dash attack is great for MK getting dash attacks in weird situations, such as after a perfect pivot or even a simple walk back. MKLeo showed the world how scary a mobile MK can be. It is interesting that this is his choice vs Zero, but the more I think about it the more it makes perfect sense.


Mk is good yo. Theres a reason it is in half the top players names. its totally not because they wanted to pretend they liked the character as a character in brawl >_>

 

[|RK|]

Opinion, m8.

Though, hey, it's a possibility.

Please make your posts more substantial in the future.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Lord Dio Hey, before this post, I just wanted to talk about the two things you requested me in this site before: The video of somebody using the DThrow>Back Jump>Double Jump as kill confirm for Marth and Bowser hitboxes.
I'm sorry it's been so long and I've not provided them to you yet. The hitboxes take a long time to make (mostly because of my process of getting them as webms, gifs and stills takes a very long time to make when most people just get gifs) and I kind of forget to get the Marth Kill Confirm and when I do remember and ask around the lab nobody has a an example readily available or even remember to give them to me to show you. I apologise for both of those, it's real bad on my part. The hitbox stuff takes so long I haven't even posted all of the hitboxes I do have ready here in Smashboards (if I'm not mistaken I have a set totally ready just sitting in my Hard Drive I have not had the time to upload). Just hope you understand. I'll get back to you eventually.

Anywho, Mewtwo? I'd actually kind of like to know what people have been thinking of him. I think that, at least against most of the Top and High Tier MUs, a last hit-last stock situation for him does look like it'd be more favourable towards him because of his more substantial hits, Shadow Ball and setups. But from my experience this kind of potential is kind of neutered if he's playing against other characters with chunky hits and late % KO confirms, like Lucina for example. I think this is an advantage he definitely does have, but it might be a bit more situational than it seems. It could be way better against somebody like Sheik and Mario who occasionally have trouble killing and are somewhat prone to falling into stuff because physics/player habits than it could be against someone like Cloud and Falcon who can live a lot if not edgeguarded and certainly don't lack in raw power.

 

[Yonder]

Sorry to veer off track a bit, but I think some sort of new thread or organized system by a willing volunteer should be made to discuss each character weekly. I remember there was something like that that the Brawl BR did, where they would give their thoughts each week on a random character. But this would include everyone here of course. More and more do I feel that I'm forgetting characters outside of the top,high, and few middle tier spots. When was the last time we have discussed someone like ROB's or DDD tier list position in depth?

I think it would be fun, invigorating, and educational in case we get another breakout character (from the looks of it, imo it's gonna be Roy or Greninja if Salem works on him). It would be nice to focus in a character weekly instead of random users getting 1-2 posts in before it is derailed. I understand this thread is for competitive character discussion and tier list placement, but it also encompasses more topics than that. This idea would put 100% on that chosen character for the week. It would pool all general thoughts in one space (Good luck searching here until months back on solid Bowser Jr posts). It would bring more discussion outside of character boards. Some of those boards are dying.

Like my post if you'd like to see weekly character discussion like this and maybe a new thread can be organized. There isn't anything like this now,is there? If so,let me know and I'll go back to bed and question my lack of attentiveness.

 

[Heracr055]

^There could be merit in that sort of thread. However, there's a few potential issues:
1) There are some chars not worth discussing the competitive worth of. Discussing Dedede is like discussing Luvdisc's place in the Pokemon metagame.
2) Let's say it's Link's week for discussion. Halfway through the week, Roy gets a high placing at an A rank or higher tourney. Suddenly the discussion shifts away from Link, then the structure falls apart a bit.
3) A character that doesn't spark discussion kills the thread.

Perhaps this could be solved with an "Emerging threat" thread, which discusses characters who are emerging out of the woodwork and are breaking their perceived viability?

 

[Bigbomb2]

1) There are some chars not worth discussing the competitive worth of. Discussing Dedede is like discussing Luvdisc's place in the Pokemon metagame.

Remember though, that may the case at much higher levels, but even low tiers have some usage down in mid-level player range. That's also where the vast majority of players are at.

2) Let's say it's Link's week for discussion. Halfway through the week, Roy gets a high placing at an A rank or higher tourney. Suddenly the discussion shifts away from Link, then the structure falls apart a bit.

If it's a new thread for these character discussions, it won't be an issue since that thread is dedicated to one character at certain times. If the character discussions were in this thread though, then it would be a problem.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Okay, @Irki, KakuCP9 , and others, since you asked...

Can I bring up a specific Bowser combo that I haven't seen in over a year?

Up throw -> Reverse Fair -> Bair (kill combo at around 40%)

First of all, to anyone who plays Bowser to some degree (especially mains), what kind of controller setup would be most optimal for such a combo?

Second, the only times I've seen this combo are in a Bowser combo video and by Nairo at a tournament last year (I forgot what it was). What would you say is the reliability of the combo and whether one can feasibly do it in tight situations?

 

[Lord Dio]

Lord Dio Hey, before this post, I just wanted to talk about the two things you requested me in this site before: The video of somebody using the DThrow>Back Jump>Double Jump as kill confirm for Marth and Bowser hitboxes.
I'm sorry it's been so long and I've not provided them to you yet. The hitboxes take a long time to make (mostly because of my process of getting them as webms, gifs and stills takes a very long time to make when most people just get gifs) and I kind of forget to get the Marth Kill Confirm and when I do remember and ask around the lab nobody has a an example readily available or even remember to give them to me to show you. I apologise for both of those, it's real bad on my part. The hitbox stuff takes so long I haven't even posted all of the hitboxes I do have ready here in Smashboards (if I'm not mistaken I have a set totally ready just sitting in my Hard Drive I have not had the time to upload). Just hope you understand. I'll get back to you eventually.

Perfectly fine, take as much time as you need.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry to veer off track a bit, but I think some sort of new thread or organized system by a willing volunteer should be made to discuss each character weekly. I remember there was something like that that the Brawl BR did, where they would give their thoughts each week on a random character. But this would include everyone here of course. More and more do I feel that I'm forgetting characters outside of the top,high, and few middle tier spots. When was the last time we have discussed someone like ROB's or DDD tier list position in depth?

I think it would be fun, invigorating, and educational in case we get another breakout character (from the looks of it, imo it's gonna be Roy or Greninja if Salem works on him). It would be nice to focus in a character weekly instead of random users getting 1-2 posts in before it is derailed. I understand this thread is for competitive character discussion and tier list placement, but it also encompasses more topics than that. This idea would put 100% on that chosen character for the week. It would pool all general thoughts in one space (Good luck searching here until months back on solid Bowser Jr posts). It would bring more discussion outside of character boards. Some of those boards are dying.

Like my post if you'd like to see weekly character discussion like this and maybe a new thread can be organized. There isn't anything like this now,is there? If so,let me know and I'll go back to bed and question my lack of attentiveness.

Interesting goal, never thought about that. Keep up the good work. So where will this thread be? I think er should talk about characters that do not get attention before high and top tiers, they are the ones that usually get the spotlight in the boards. Looking forward to that new thread!

Opinion, m8.

Though, hey, it's a possibility.

IIRC Sonic's main issues are that he isn't very good at dealing with foes above him due to his mediocre air game and large/lingering hitboxes that make it difficult for Sonic to use his spin dash game. Bayo has both of these elements in spades. Granted Sonic has a strong grab game due his dash grab and d-throw tech chasing, but without fearsome damage/KO power, the risk/reward and neutral game leans towards Bayonetta.

Also Skeeter Mania for ****s sake, quit flippantly disregarding everything people say as "your opinion m8" when it differs from your's or the general consensus . That is the entire POINT of this damn thread. Someone may see a character or MU in one light based on their experiences with game along with interpretation of the frame data/hitboxes and people will either agree with them or challenge that by offering up opposing evidence or calling said view into question.
Once we see the different ways in which to look at the meta, we can learn and grow as players. Does this discourse occur that cleanly all the time? Definitely not. But just dismissing someone's point as just an opinion is horribly crass even if said point isn't that well conceived. While you don't actively belittle people like some people in this thread, your actions continuously grate the patience of the people here so I suggest you shape up and either find a way to constructively contribute or just be quiet and lurk.

Please make your posts more substantial in the future.

Thank you KakuCP9 and |RK| . I am glad my question is answered! I just want to point out Skeeter Mania that you should always give a good answer to someone's opinion, especially in a competitive thread like this. It is kind of like a question on a final exam requires you to say if you believe in this and why, and you just say "your opinion m8" on the final exam question. Skeeter Mania , please make informative posts with detail, not just "your opinion m8".

And just because only dash attack or grab lead to ladders, does NOT mean that these are his only neutral options. Dair knocks you down, is really safe, and if anything in his arsenal leads to dash attack or grab then... well, you get the same conversion with a few extra damage on top, and your neutral gets that much better. I think people focus on those two options because together they 'cover everything', though simply placing a safe hitbox is a great answer. Cstick dash attack is great for MK getting dash attacks in weird situations, such as after a perfect pivot or even a simple walk back. MKLeo showed the world how scary a mobile MK can be. It is interesting that this is his choice vs Zero, but the more I think about it the more it makes perfect sense.




Mk is good yo. Theres a reason it is in half the top players names. its totally not because they wanted to pretend they liked the character as a character in brawl >_>

Thanks for bringing up Meta Knight, and you are right about one thing: Meta Knight's down air is really good. It can be used as an edge guard for characters in the high tier that have exploitable recoveries ( Fox, Cloud, Mario, Captain Falcon, Lucario, and maybe Corrin are some notable examples.). Meta Knight's down air can even be used to mess up some characters and get a horizontal screen kill. I also think the Meta Knight match up against Mario is actually getting better. And Meta Knight does have top tier mobility. Good post!

 

[RonNewcomb]

Okay, @Irki, KakuCP9 , and others, since you asked...

Can I bring up a specific Bowser combo that I haven't seen in over a year?

Up throw -> Reverse Fair -> Bair (kill combo at around 40%)

First of all, to anyone who plays Bowser to some degree (especially mains), what kind of controller setup would be most optimal for such a combo?

Second, the only times I've seen this combo are in a Bowser combo video and by Nairo at a tournament last year (I forgot what it was). What would you say is the reliability of the combo and whether one can feasibly do it in tight situations?

My first questions on any reverse fair combo would be, is it character specific, and, does it require DI behind Bowser?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

My first questions on any reverse fair combo would be, is it character specific, and, does it require DI behind Bowser?

That I don't know. My only source to go off of is a combo video.

 

[Laken64]

Corrin has a very good trait in the fact that he can render Sheiks amazing disadvantage to being pretty vulnerable with amazing range, juggle frametraps and super hard punishes at ledge and landing with pin, DFS and other tools.

Needle camping isnt as effective as it seems as corrin can oos pin sheik needles if it is remotely not at max distance. Sheik cant trap corrins landings as well as other characters nor has many good killing tools on him. Combine this with an abundance of kill moves and a kill throw corrin can compete well.

Sheiks main advantage in the mu is her speed and ledgetraping but when her godlike disadvantage is rendered into becoming a complete guessing game versus Corrin she does not win essily.

After seeing Cosmos go from losing to sheiks and void in his early preformances to beating both the two best sheiks in the world despite sheik having all the tools to overwhelm corrin the mu looks not as bad as I expected with Cosmos results in the mu.

Funny enough since Corrin's release Corrin's mu spread among the top tiers has been constantly changing. In the early days was considered her worst mu then as time went on it was a tie between (who in theory have strong neutrals that shut corrin down) with not too far behind. In little over a year Corrin now has a seemingly good mu against and with labbing isnt too bad because we can body him in disadvantage destroy his recovery for example (it's like slight disadvantage for corrin). is all about exposing his bad air drift and watch for his monkey flips and in the post earlier sheik and somewhat struggle in disadvantage due to Corrin's large disjoints. Now in Corrincord and
have been claimed to be his worst mus (cloud by Ryuga and m2 by Frozen) and it's looking to be that way.

I've said this before back in the early days of this thread but Corrin had the youngest metagame due to being overshadowed by (irony is that corrin now does really well against bayo lol) but now she's developed into a much more stronger character who's now pretty much worthy of her placement in this outdated tier list ( though I can see being the potential top of high tier over corrin) which honestly makes me happy after all the questioning of her character in the early days of this thread.

 

[Megamang]

Some other situational but extremely deadly combos

Corrin: She can nair when she lands on a (battlefield) platform, and the nair will poke below her and pop you up. Her nair already combos well, and when you elevate her position it gets crazy. Depending on their DI, character, and percentage, you can get a regular aerial ladder, you can get an usmash kill on an airdodge, or usmash for damage with no airdodge. On the regular combo food characters, you can probably just get a usmash kill. Haven't labbed it enough. If they go off to the side, you can get an insta pin which can kill if they are holding away (which isn't that uncommon, because they will be holding away to prevent a vertical kill combo). Finally, and probably best of all for Corrin, you can get some nasty dragon fang shot confirms for heavy damage, easy input, and early kills in the right situations.

Dair will also poke through the platform. From here you can run off and get an insta pin, for a crazy amount of damage considering the relative safety of the dair poke. It also punishes them if they try and jump up to pressure you on the platform, so it is a nice reversal. Especially when you have counter to further mix up your options. I bet you could get dair to fair combos at low damage, but not 0 because there isn't enough hitstun. All of the above works better on the taller characters.


Side note: Thank sakurai for Air Shooter, all of this above-platform reverse pressure stuff is pretty much void against megaman, even platform drop uair with cloud isn't really that scary and loses. Uair can also interrupt blazer kills, I learned that the good way today. Back to novel combos:


Pikachu can fair footstool. He also gets landing fair -> stuff depending on your frame advantage (which varies based on how close the hitbox comes out to when you land, maaaaybe with practice you can get good timing here but that seems kinda far out. People have impressed me before though)


Lucario (this one is good). The bowser one reminded me of this.

Lucario at the ledge can get Aura Sphere Charge -> Reverse fair -> Bair. With even a moderate amount of Aura this starts killing surprisingly early, doubly so at smashville and doubly doubly so at the edge of TaC.


Lets see... Megaman can do fair -> dtilt, pretty mediocre but it is something so why not? Metal Blade drop -> uair -> bair is a nice BnB for huge damage


---

Something I'd like to explore is ledge regrab shenanigan combos. I got hit with Witch Twist 1 -> Bair, mashing airdodge the entire time so it at least combos on shiek. The bayo was at full rage. Linking hits have promise here because of their high set knockback combined with usually being tied to mobility moves like up-special. Actually it might have to be specials, since you can't grab the ledge until your animation is complete with regular moves.

Shiek grenades are actually pretty good with edge grab canceling, you can put some pressure out offstage and it is basically free, and even when they dodge it you get some decent chip damage. I like to mix this in when I can't really get a good needle shot on them, for whatever reason. Oh, and the gravity pull can gimp characters with mediocre recoveries, which is hilarious... but not that great, most of those characters are toast offstage anyways so its not a huge boon but it is nice. I wonder if it could mess with shiek...


Oh, just remembered a really cool one. Zelda sweet spot fair [frame canceled only] -> teleport kill, kills absurdly early but is a suicide kill and you MUST get the frame cancel, it isn't really viable but I think it is worth trying if you need a massive comeback. It is possible you could get the buffer window to an exact timing where you only buffer the up-B if you get the frame cancel, otherwise you just get a nice leisurely walk forward that doesn't kill you.


Lets talk about novel combos, blockstrings, edgeguard setup, or frame-cancel combos!

 

[ARGHETH]

Sorry to veer off track a bit, but I think some sort of new thread or organized system by a willing volunteer should be made to discuss each character weekly. I remember there was something like that that the Brawl BR did, where they would give their thoughts each week on a random character. But this would include everyone here of course. More and more do I feel that I'm forgetting characters outside of the top,high, and few middle tier spots. When was the last time we have discussed someone like ROB's or DDD tier list position in depth?

I think it would be fun, invigorating, and educational in case we get another breakout character (from the looks of it, imo it's gonna be Roy or Greninja if Salem works on him). It would be nice to focus in a character weekly instead of random users getting 1-2 posts in before it is derailed. I understand this thread is for competitive character discussion and tier list placement, but it also encompasses more topics than that. This idea would put 100% on that chosen character for the week. It would pool all general thoughts in one space (Good luck searching here until months back on solid Bowser Jr posts). It would bring more discussion outside of character boards. Some of those boards are dying.

Like my post if you'd like to see weekly character discussion like this and maybe a new thread can be organized. There isn't anything like this now,is there? If so,let me know and I'll go back to bed and question my lack of attentiveness.

Seems like a good idea. I assume it would run similar to the best moves thread? In that case, I could run it.

Let's say it's Link's week for discussion. Halfway through the week, Roy gets a high placing at an A rank or higher tourney. Suddenly the discussion shifts away from Link, then the structure falls apart a bit.

That shouldn't be too much of a problem, considering all that discussion would happen in this thread, not the character discussion thread. I feel like an "emerging threats" thread would just be a bunch of posts immediately after a major while being dead all other times...

 

[Yonder]

Seems like a good idea. I assume it would run similar to the best moves thread? In that case, I could run it.

That shouldn't be too much of a problem, considering all that discussion would happen in this thread, not the character discussion thread. I feel like an "emerging threats" thread would just be a bunch of posts immediately after a major while being dead all other times...

Perfect, we could work together on it if you wanna PM me for a game plan. I know someone brought up the point that some characters aren't worth discussing...but Smashboards I feel should apply to all levels of play. Over in BC here, our best player uses DDD. So it can encompass everything about a character at all levels, not just S-A tier viable characters. I would like to focus on characters with less discussion first, or some other agreed upon system. I just see all too often people try to bring up discussion about a character, only for it to die within a few posts as another more breaking event comes up or someone chooses to change the subject. This discussion topic would make sure everyone gets the change without interruption.

 

[Nah]

with labbing isnt too bad because we can body him in disadvantage destroy his recovery for example (it's like slight disadvantage for corrin).

That’s basically Fox’s life in general though, it’s not some unique to Corrin

Like idk why when talking about why a character does “well” vs Fox one’s primary point would be “ yeah we kick the **** outta him in disadvantage and wreck his recovery” when literally everyone in the game does that to him

a more convincing argument would involve stuff like “X character can keep up with him in neutral”, “X character has ways to mitigate his bonkers advantage state”, etc

I feel like an "emerging threats" thread would just be a bunch of posts immediately after a major while being dead all other times...

That, and chances are that all it would really be is the same nonsense you see in this thread after every major of how X is totally higher on the tier list than previously thought/how Y totally does well vs [insert top 4 character here] based on absolutely nothing but one set

 

[Laken64]

That’s basically Fox’s life in general though, it’s not some unique to Corrin

Like idk why when talking about why a character does “well” vs Fox one’s primary point would be “ yeah we kick the **** outta him in disadvantage and wreck his recovery” when literally everyone in the game does that to him

a more convincing argument would involve stuff like “X character can keep up with him in neutral”, “X character has ways to mitigate his bonkers advantage state”, etc


That, and chances are that all it would really be is the same nonsense you see in this thread after every major of how X is totally higher on the tier list than previously thought/how Y totally does well vs [insert top 4 character here] based on absolutely nothing but one set

Sorry about that I should have explained it further.
Fox corrin is still a mu corrin slightly loses because of his top 4 run speed the fact that corrin can do little about being vortexed by Fox with the rare exception of counter in certain situations. But what I meant to say that it wasn't as terrible as Corrin mains thought in the past as a possible worst mu. Its still a losing one but its not the worst mu for the dragon. Basically its fox vortex vs corrin's air and frame trap and juggling game pls the factor of rage.

And additionally I'm not saying that Corrin does amazing against they are still losing mus but not to the extent we thought it was which I realized with Hosmash's post with corrin vs sheik. and looking over the videos from Cosmos since Nario saga to EVO, big house, and the LCQ at 2GG He went from losing to sheiks (notibly against void and Mr R) to using corrins tools to expose shiek's main weaknesses (which is in Hosmash4's post above) to beat void after losing to him at Nario saga and EVO to beat him at TBH7 and losing to Mr R at MM10 to beating him in game 5 in the LCQ at 2GG theres more than enough sets to show the change over time.

Again the mu is still bad for corrin with shiek controlling the pace on neutral but its not abysmal compared to other characters. The main reason in the beginning of this thread you criticized about Corrin was his placement being only on sole theory which you were right in and in the same way her mus were based on theory with little high lv vods of them. Overall I just wanted to say that we've gone from raw theory to seeing actual examples of this in top lv play. Through all of that it made me see that these mus weren't as one sided for corrin as it was back in release with development to today. they are tough mus but there are things you can exploit which can change the whole course of how the mu is perceived and what it actually is.

Again I should have elaborated more on my last post so I didn't cause some misunderstanding, if you have anything else to point out I'm willing to hear it

Edit: O shoot I realized you were talking to ARGHETH on that last quote and not me LOL ded post

 

[Minordeth]

Okay, @Irki, KakuCP9 , and others, since you asked...

Can I bring up a specific Bowser combo that I haven't seen in over a year?

Up throw -> Reverse Fair -> Bair (kill combo at around 40%)

First of all, to anyone who plays Bowser to some degree (especially mains), what kind of controller setup would be most optimal for such a combo?

Second, the only times I've seen this combo are in a Bowser combo video and by Nairo at a tournament last year (I forgot what it was). What would you say is the reliability of the combo and whether one can feasibly do it in tight situations?

My first questions on any reverse fair combo would be, is it character specific, and, does it require DI behind Bowser?

Uthrow > Rar Fair > Bair is true. It doesn’t require DI behind Bowser. It’s easier to get with rage and on heavies and fast fallers though.

As far as I know, it’s not possible to DI if it’s at the correct percent range. I’d have to do a more in depth check though, so don’t quote me on that. I’m leaning no, due to the angle Rar fair has and how massive Bair is.

As for feasibility, I’d say it’s about as difficult as Mewtwo’s Nair > Footstool > disable. Maybe slightly more so. The Rar Fair to Bair is really tight, though. It takes practice, like anything else. It is worth it to practice and know, as if the situation provides itself, it kills stupid early.

Bowser has a lot of combos and mix ups out of Rar fair that are more practical than you’d think.

The easiest way I can think of, and how I generally do it per a YouTube video I don’t have the link for on hand: have tilt stick on and a trigger jump, during the Uthrow, buffer the turnaround by holding the control stick away from the facing direction. From there it’s timing.

 

[Deleted member]

I understand and believe that Bowser wins the match up against Marth, but why? An explanation would be nice.

Bowser has a lot of combos and mix ups out of Rar fair that are more practical than you’d think.

Good point. I think Bowser can Reverse Forward Air to a possible gimp. It is also a useful edge guarding tool and a way to make a horizontal combo. It has some good knock back and damage which makes it a useful edge guarding tool.

 

[FamilyTeam]

New I understand and believe that Bowser wins the match up against Marth, but why? An explanation would be nice.

It's not necessarily a win. It's just a bit of a dangerous matchup.
I'm really over-simplifying here but Bowser's assets can make him annoying to deal with. He gets way too much off of grab on us, Koo-pah works on us very well, one mispaced aerial from our side is deadly and we don't have throw combos on him. He's also not too shabby in ground speed and has very meaty aerials.
However from our side, his disadvantage is bad. Not like Fox or Falcon bad, it's ugly. You can kind of lob him all stage dealing very high damage constantly. His recovery is super easy to Counter, Bair, and even Dair is not such a bad idea since the way it is leaves him kind of vulnerable on the top more or less. If we're able to KO him early be it via edgeguard or reading one of his get up options with a kill move, then he's really lagging behind. However if we let him survive with Rage, that's a huge problem. We don't need his stuff killing us any earlier. And tbh it's not uncommon for Marth/Lucina to take him to percent close to Max Rage. That's when you really need to close things out before he goes too far with that power.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Sorry to veer off track a bit, but I think some sort of new thread or organized system by a willing volunteer should be made to discuss each character weekly. I remember there was something like that that the Brawl BR did, where they would give their thoughts each week on a random character. But this would include everyone here of course. More and more do I feel that I'm forgetting characters outside of the top,high, and few middle tier spots. When was the last time we have discussed someone like ROB's or DDD tier list position in depth?

I think it would be fun, invigorating, and educational in case we get another breakout character (from the looks of it, imo it's gonna be Roy or Greninja if Salem works on him). It would be nice to focus in a character weekly instead of random users getting 1-2 posts in before it is derailed. I understand this thread is for competitive character discussion and tier list placement, but it also encompasses more topics than that. This idea would put 100% on that chosen character for the week. It would pool all general thoughts in one space (Good luck searching here until months back on solid Bowser Jr posts). It would bring more discussion outside of character boards. Some of those boards are dying.

Like my post if you'd like to see weekly character discussion like this and maybe a new thread can be organized. There isn't anything like this now,is there? If so,let me know and I'll go back to bed and question my lack of attentiveness.

Okay sure, be sure to highlight me once Doc's week happens, so i can play my little game: Every time Mario gets mentioned in someone's argument about Doc, i'll take a shot. I can assure you that i'd be dead without even reaching the 2nd page. Some people haven't put time into researching in depth the reasons as to why X Mid/Low Tier may or may not have a niche given that some of his tools can be useful against Y Relevant character. And you can't really put the blame on them because such knowledge isn't really worthwhile aside from the sheer ability of talking about it: If you play a good character, you probably win these irrelevant matchups, and if by any chance you're bad at them or the other character has a shot at it: Well, they're irrelevant. Why would you train your Mario or Fox against Doc if no one plays Doc?

Seriously though, I'm okay with the idea in paper, but in concept, it will just expose the people's incompetence & very basic knowledge of half of the cast. Let the people freely talk about characters as they wish, because that's pretty much how our mind functions: You witness something, more or less personal, regarding a character, that leads you into thinking: " What's so wrong/right with this character? Why are they ( not ) working ? " and let those who feel confident enough to share their opinions on the subject given their experience and knowledge on the matter.

That being said, since you mentioned R.O.B, i'll start a subject of my own:

R.O.B kind of sucks, doesn't he?

I mean, think about it for a bit: R.O.B's a character with among the most easily breakable zoning games out there, because he's dependable on the Gyro, a throwable item that sure gives him a bunch of advantages like strong ledge trapping game and some combos upclose, the whole throwable item baiting game can also be somewhat efficient against the more careful opponents. But do these perks really outweigh the fact that a mispaced Gyro will remain useless for a little while, which is usually enough for the opponent to reach R.O.B. At that point, what's left of R.O.B? A character with an overall bad frame data, absolutely abysmal out of shield game, and most importantly, a terrible disadvantage state. Given how easy it is for R.O.B to reach such a state, and how swordies with their juggling games, or brawlers with their pressure should make something off of that mistake, does R.O.B really beat any of the relevant characters? I mean sure, he can clutch things out due to aforementioned tools, and a consistent ( but kind of mediocre once known how to be dealt with ) damage output out of grabs.

So yeah, i don't have much faith in R.O.B: The aforementioned major hole in his already breakable zoning based neutral kind of renders him too easily beaten, and at that point, R.O.B's bound to take a lot of damage from most of the good characters. R.O.B doesn't really have a niche, and clutch can only get you so far. Much like Robin, inexperience can also only get you so far. However, i may be underselling some of ROB's strong assets, or overthinking the consequences of his holes in neutral, and that good R.O.B players can work around it well enough. Tell me why you think so, because i'm interested.

 

[bc1910]

I think ROB is hit and miss. He has some good MUs against some high/top tiers (Greninja, Falcon, his Sheik MU isn’t awful) but he’s not hard to counterpick either.

The Gyro can be really annoying to deal with once it’s out because you can’t just walk past it. You are forced to jump or roll past it, both of which can be easily punished by ROB. If you overcommit and jump too high, ROB can just roll toward the Gyro and camp it, which makes him even harder to hit. I prefer to shield the Gyro and approach ROB through his projectiles, I find him much easier to deal with when he doesn’t have a Gyro on stage.

I agree that his laser is kind of bad. His disadvantage is also bad most of the time, though some ROBs are pretty good at landing with Nair. His OoS game isn’t bad, it’s not top tier by any means but the simple fact of having a fast grab with a highly threatening down throw combo means you have to respect it.

I think ROB has some value as a counterpick character. I would not solo main him in this meta though.

 

[Deleted member]

^There could be merit in that sort of thread. However, there's a few potential issues:
1) There are some chars not worth discussing the competitive worth of. Discussing Dedede is like discussing Luvdisc's place in the Pokemon metagame.
2) Let's say it's Link's week for discussion. Halfway through the week, Roy gets a high placing at an A rank or higher tourney. Suddenly the discussion shifts away from Link, then the structure falls apart a bit.
3) A character that doesn't spark discussion kills the thread.

Perhaps this could be solved with an "Emerging threat" thread, which discusses characters who are emerging out of the woodwork and are breaking their perceived viability?

Well a character thread is better than none. I am sure the moderators can balance things out ( like end the messy conversation ) and tell the posters to talk about a certain character for the week. Some characters may not spark as many discussion as others, but every character always sparks a discussion. You do have a point of the competitive discussion, the bottom tiers do not have enough strong results or even results to have a discussion about them. So we can chat about their match ups and how to be able to do well against them? Maybe you can also talk about the moves they can do against strong characters and weak match ups. Sonic vs Kirby is a very interesting and at the same time depressing for Kirby ( It is one of the worst match ups in the entire game ). I personally think a charter discussion would be a great idea and the issues will be hopefully dealt with.

 

[Yonder]

Okay sure, be sure to highlight me once Doc's week happens, so i can play my little game: Every time Mario gets mentioned in someone's argument about Doc, i'll take a shot. I can assure you that i'd be dead without even reaching the 2nd page. Some people haven't put time into researching in depth the reasons as to why X Mid/Low Tier may or may not have a niche given that some of his tools can be useful against Y Relevant character. And you can't really put the blame on them because such knowledge isn't really worthwhile aside from the sheer ability of talking about it: If you play a good character, you probably win these irrelevant matchups, and if by any chance you're bad at them or the other character has a shot at it: Well, they're irrelevant. Why would you train your Mario or Fox against Doc if no one plays Doc?

Seriously though, I'm okay with the idea in paper, but in concept, it will just expose the people's incompetence & very basic knowledge of half of the cast. Let the people freely talk about characters as they wish, because that's pretty much how our mind functions: You witness something, more or less personal, regarding a character, that leads you into thinking: " What's so wrong/right with this character? Why are they ( not ) working ? " and let those who feel confident enough to share their opinions on the subject given their experience and knowledge on the matter.

That being said, since you mentioned R.O.B, i'll start a subject of my own:

R.O.B kind of sucks, doesn't he?

I mean, think about it for a bit: R.O.B's a character with among the most easily breakable zoning games out there, because he's dependable on the Gyro, a throwable item that sure gives him a bunch of advantages like strong ledge trapping game and some combos upclose, the whole throwable item baiting game can also be somewhat efficient against the more careful opponents. But do these perks really outweigh the fact that a mispaced Gyro will remain useless for a little while, which is usually enough for the opponent to reach R.O.B. At that point, what's left of R.O.B? A character with an overall bad frame data, absolutely abysmal out of shield game, and most importantly, a terrible disadvantage state. Given how easy it is for R.O.B to reach such a state, and how swordies with their juggling games, or brawlers with their pressure should make something off of that mistake, does R.O.B really beat any of the relevant characters? I mean sure, he can clutch things out due to aforementioned tools, and a consistent ( but kind of mediocre once known how to be dealt with ) damage output out of grabs.

So yeah, i don't have much faith in R.O.B: The aforementioned major hole in his already breakable zoning based neutral kind of renders him too easily beaten, and at that point, R.O.B's bound to take a lot of damage from most of the good characters. R.O.B doesn't really have a niche, and clutch can only get you so far. Much like Robin, inexperience can also only get you so far. However, i may be underselling some of ROB's strong assets, or overthinking the consequences of his holes in neutral, and that good R.O.B players can work around it well enough. Tell me why you think so, because i'm interested.

Perfect. Just letting you all know the thread is in the work, I believe ARGHETH is hosting it with me in the background. When the thread opens, I encourage people to make posts akin to Remilia's here. Just basically what's on your mind,with some sustanence. There will be topic suggestions if conversation stales. If you're ignorsnt about a character, don't be shy. Other mroe knowledgeable mains will be able to help contribute and enlighten posters. We should be looking to learn by the end of each week something new or relavent about a character. Even if they are able to discover the slightest niche to the current meta for a bottom tier...that's progress.

 

[|RK|]

I have a small, off-topic comment to make:

I don't quite understand how Lucario's neutral is considered to be weak. I've been in a minor character crisis between Lucario and Kirby as of late (because of playstyle fit, not perceived strength), and so I've been practicing more Lucario.

When you take notes from Venia's Greninja + WaDi's Mewtwo, Lucario's neutral seems simple yet very effective. Charge aura sphere a little. Choose an action - nair, grab, shoot aura sphere, bait something else with his great foxtrot...

And that gets to be way more terrifying when he has aura. Against, say, Marcina... whiff punishing with a dash attack is new to me (very solid burst option). It just seems like he has a number of ways to safely threaten pressure or play around his opponent's range.

I'm certainly no high-level player. But I will say that he seems to have all the neutral tools you could want. Anyone better educated on the character want to tell me what I'm missing (neutral-wise)?

(Well, obviously his frame data is iffy, but the same applies to Greninja/Mewtwo).

 

[Deleted member]

I have a small, off-topic comment to make:

I don't quite understand how Lucario's neutral is considered to be weak. I've been in a minor character crisis between Lucario and Kirby as of late (because of playstyle fit, not perceived strength), and so I've been practicing more Lucario.

When you take notes from Venia's Greninja + WaDi's Mewtwo, Lucario's neutral seems simple yet very effective. Charge aura sphere a little. Choose an action - nair, grab, shoot aura sphere, bait something else with his great foxtrot...

And that gets to be way more terrifying when he has aura. Against, say, Marcina... whiff punishing with a dash attack is new to me (very solid burst option). It just seems like he has a number of ways to safely threaten pressure or play around his opponent's range.

I'm certainly no high-level player. But I will say that he seems to have all the neutral tools you could want. Anyone better educated on the character want to tell me what I'm missing (neutral-wise)?

(Well, obviously his frame data is iffy, but the same applies to Greninja/Mewtwo).

Lucario is actually quite a threat, and ZeRo considers him a top tier even. I know this sounds weird but Aura is actually a somewhat good edge guarding tool ( Like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball ) and his grabs ( when at max aura ) can kill characters at fifty percent even. Lucario with no aura is somewhat okay, but Lucario with more aura can kill at ridiculously low percents and his a good up air follow up ( ehh kind of like Mario ). Plus, Aura is stacked with rage. Lucario can do the annoying Aura Sphere edge guard and annoy the heck out of the opponent seeking to go upwards. His neutral can be good ( especially with max aura ). I just want to mention Lucario's aura from Brawl was buffed, and the Rage Mechanic got in the game. I think he has a potential to have a good neutral.

 

[Rizen]

Lucario is actually quite a threat, and ZeRo considers him a top tier even. I know this sounds weird but Aura is actually a somewhat good edge guarding tool ( Like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball ) and his grabs ( when at max aura ) can kill characters at fifty percent even. Lucario with no aura is somewhat okay, but Lucario with more aura can kill at ridiculously low percents and his a good up air follow up ( ehh kind of like Mario ). Plus, Aura is stacked with rage. Lucario can do the annoying Aura Sphere edge guard and annoy the heck out of the opponent seeking to go upwards. His neutral can be good ( especially with max aura ). I just want to mention Lucario's aura from Brawl was buffed, and the Rage Mechanic got in the game. I think he has a potential to have a good neutral.

Agree. Aura sphere when big enough is one of the best ledge traps in the game. It hits while charging and combos into Usmash to catch ledge get ups and jumps and he can fire it on reaction to hit rolls. Characters without disjointed aerials can't really do anything.

IMO Lucario's at the upper end of high tier but not quight Marth/Corrin level.

 

[|RK|]

Agree. Aura sphere when big enough is one of the best ledge traps in the game. It hits while charging and combos into Usmash to catch ledge get ups and jumps and he can fire it on reaction to hit rolls. Characters without disjointed aerials can't really do anything.

IMO Lucario's at the upper end of high tier but not quight Marth/Corrin level.

Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the reverse AS ledgetrap. Personally, I think the more flexible ledgetrap is just holding AS at roll distance. It's more dangerous than what Mewtwo does with Shadow Ball, as holding ledge doesn't beat it, roll = death, and jump can be caught more easily. Disjoints are pretty much irrelevant against that.

But in either case, that's his advantage state... Which I also think is godlike, tbh. Vortexing with his amazing pivot grab, catching landings with Aura Sphere (or Force Palm/grab), etc.

I personally put Lucario exactly where ZeRo does... top tier.