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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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FamilyTeam

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The thing with Cloud though is he can get easily edgeguarded/gimped by Bayo. Marcina is way less susceptible to that with their way safer recovery. Plus they have a way better ground game with their walk, jab and tilts along with an upb combo breaker (though situational).
Edgeguarding Marcina is extremely underused. Their recovery is way more vulnerable than it seems. Everything trades with it, they always have to go through a semi-predictable path and recover really low if they want to snap to the ledge because Dolphin Slash is very picky with doing that without overshooting, they have little in the way of mixing up that's not a huge commitment (SB and Air DB1) and even when they do make it to the ledge, their ledge options are pretty poor since if you choose Drop>Jump Back there's little in the way of making their really endlag-heavy aerials safe on shield in that position without regrabbing the ledge sacrificing invincibility which could result in immediate death. If they're hit out of their double jump while trying to get back on the ledge, Marcina is one of those characters where without their double jump their recovery goes essentially nowhere.
Marcina's recovery is not anywhere near Cloud's tier but edgeguarding them and pressuring them on the ledge can still go a very long way.
It's probably at max slight advantage for Marcina since they don't have the best disadvantage state, lack of landing options and being able to get juggled easily
Actually, no, I'd argue Even is as good as it's gonna get against her.
To me, it felt more like Abadango and Salem lost to Leo rather than they lost to Marth. They got figured out, read and outplayed. It just so happens Marth is a particularly deadly character if you've figured out your opponent to the extent Leo had.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Same
Edgeguarding Marcina is extremely underused. Their recovery is way more vulnerable than it seems. Everything trades with it, they always have to go through a semi-predictable path and recover really low if they want to snap to the ledge because Dolphin Slash is very picky with doing that without overshooting, they have little in the way of mixing up that's not a huge commitment (SB and Air DB1) and even when they do make it to the ledge, their ledge options are pretty poor since if you choose Drop>Jump Back there's little in the way of making their really endlag-heavy aerials safe on shield in that position without regrabbing the ledge sacrificing invincibility which could result in immediate death. If they're hit out of their double jump while trying to get back on the ledge, Marcina is one of those characters where without their double jump their recovery goes essentially nowhere.
Marcina's recovery is not anywhere near Cloud's tier but edgeguarding them and pressuring them on the ledge can still go a very long way.

Actually, no, I'd argue Even is as good as it's gonna get against her.
To me, it felt more like Abadango and Salem lost to Leo rather than they lost to Marth. They got figured out, read and outplayed. It just so happens Marth is a particularly deadly character if you've figured out your opponent to the extent Leo had.
Same reason how he demolished ZeRo's Diddy with MK. I mean I don't think many people believr MK beats Diddy all of a sudden . (Alhough he seems to be able to hold his own in the MU)
 
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Yonder

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Same


Same reason how he demolished ZeRo's Diddy with MK. I mean I don't think many people believr MK beats Diddy all of a sudden . (Alhough he seems to be able to hold his own in the MU)
It's pretty nice for MK being the only decent character in the game with multiple jumps,allowing him to stay off the ground and basically fly right over bananas. I noticed MKleo swats at Zero from above with dairs, rarely touched the ground. He also made life hell for Diddy as soon as he was offstage. Diddy is still pretty susceptible to ladder, and MKleo was great at SDI to escape the game clinching U smash (although some people think he fell out otherwise...it was the SDI)

This is the 3rd set now MKleo has beaten Zero, and has only done it with MK. This is no longer a fluke/mu inexperience. I think the MU is closer than we think. I wouldn't be surprised if MK did have a slight advantage. Why not?
 
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A Scrub

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Judging from the posts, is Bayonetta's overall gamestyle getting slightly worse? She is the best character in the game still.
It seems people are learning the MU instead of whining about being broken.

No character is horribly broken as of 1.1.6.
 
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D

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I have no clue if I already said this ( remind me if I did ), but Luigi should be high tier in V4 Backroom Tier List.
It's pretty nice for MK being the only decent character in the game with multiple jumps,allowing him to stay off the ground and basically fly right over bananas. I noticed MKleo swats at Zero from above with dairs, rarely touched the ground. He also made life hell for Diddy as soon as he was offstage. Diddy is still pretty susceptible to ladder, and MKleo was great at SDI to escape the game clinching U smash (although some people think he fell out otherwise...it was the SDI)

This is the 3rd set now MKleo has beaten Zero, and has only done it with MK. This is no longer a fluke/mu inexperience. I think the MU is closer than we think. I wouldn't be surprised if MK did have a slight advantage. Why not?
Good post. I feel like Meta Knight is either even with Diddy Kong, or Meta Knight wins the match up. In the last round Meta Knight was able to use a lot of attacks on ZeRo to ladder him or to edge guard him which is very difficult to handle. As you said before, I do think Diddy can be vulnerable to ladder combos. However Diddy Kong can abuse his large hurtbox and fast fall and do some air attacks or something to pull off some damage.

It seems people are learning the MU instead of whining about being broken.

No character is horribly broken as of 1.1.6.
I meant that are other characters finding ways to slightly solve the Bayonetta Matchup? In a way, you did answer my question. Thanks!

Meta Knight and the Luigi especially, I think these characters have cemented their high tier placings by now.
Meta Knight is already high tier, but Luigi does deserve a high tier spot as I mentioned early.
 
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|RK|

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Yeah, I'm starting to feel like it's not a coincidence, sword characters (Marcina/Cloud/Corrin in particular) all do decent vs Bayonetta because they all have a lot of things in common that work well vs her. I think Marth was a fine pick tbh (might have been even more convincing if Leo walked more lol).

First, having anything grounded that out spaces or can challenge Bayonetta's one safe good grounded option in d-tilt is nice to have. Disjoints in general work because they can both out-space her d-tilt and, more often than not, they have an option for good anti-airing (which is important to have vs Bayo; especially w/ her high short hop) and can actually challenge her big hitboxes.

Second, a lot of the sword characters have decent grab games and Marth even has a kill throw. They can shark platforms to dissuade Bayo from platform camping, and the sword/counter can also challenge Bayonetta offstage to edge-guard which is a feat not too many characters are able to do well.

And finally, they all have good ledge trapping. Bayo's like to retreat to the ledge a lot to not have to deal w/ lag after burning specials, but if she traps herself there vs characters good in that situation, it can be rough.

I feel like Marth might even do the best out of all 3 tbh. Cloud can get carried to the edge by regular Bayonetta combos and gimped, his grab game isn't as potent either. Corrin also lacking in ground-game with her tilts being unsafe, and pin while good, can sacrifice stage control and can be risky vs Bayonetta.
Reminder that even Roy was successfully used against Bayo this weekend. Disjoints aren't amazing, but it's his speed that allows him to ignore her range. That and punish her from good distances.
 

The-Technique

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Mario is too slow to consistently catch her landings, but Usmash tho, grab game tho, and well-spaced and timed Bairs tho to beat her buttons. Instead of being Mario and rushing her down for the grabs, play more like Marth and space her out with Bairs and fireballs here and there. Play a little more passive.
It's definitely not that simple for Mario. Ally is THE patient Mario with top notch fundamentals and mind games, but his character can't do *anything* to threaten Bayonetta once she jumps on a platform and camps.
 

|RK|

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It's definitely not that simple for Mario. Ally is THE patient Mario with top notch fundamentals and mind games, but his character can't do *anything* to threaten Bayonetta once she jumps on a platform and camps.
Wait, Ally is patient? I've always gotten the impression that he's aggressive/read-based. ANTi is certainly more aggressive, but Ally is still pretty aggressive.

Zenyou is attempting to be a truly defensive Mario, but.
 

Nemesis561

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Yes I would classify Ally as a pretty patient Mario. He tends to hang back and read his opponent’s patterns to find the potential openings, and also is one of the more Fludd heavy Marios, using it not only for edgeguards but for gaining stage control. He has the rep of just spamming up smash lol, but he’s a really methodical player
 
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|RK|

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Yes I would classify Ally as a pretty patient Mario. He tends to hang back and read his opponent’s patterns to find the potential openings, and also is one of the more Fludd heavy Marios, using it not only for edgeguards but for gaining stage control. He has the rep of just spamming up smash lol, but he’s a really methodical player
Mm, maybe I got the wrong impression, then. I will say though - playing aggressive doesn't necessarily mean playing dumb. He can do all of what you mentioned (use lots of Fludd, reading opponent's patterns for openings) while being an aggressive player.
 
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Mm, maybe I got the wrong impression, then. I will say though - playing aggressive doesn't necessarily mean playing dumb. He can do all of what you mentioned (use lots of Fludd, reading opponent's patterns for openings) while being an aggressive player.
I want to support this post by this: ( consider the last match )

 

Frihetsanka

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This doesn't seem to have been discussed much, so I'm going to put this here: Cosmos' run in Last Chance Qualifier was pretty sick. Set wins against Mr. R, Mistake, and Elegant (won one, lost one, in Grand Finals), taking 2nd place overall.

https://twitter.com/KeitaroTime/status/937385134071824384

I suppose I might lack data, but Corrin players seem to do rather well against Bayonetta, don't they? Was Cosmos-Mistake off-stream? The set is not on YouTube, so I assume it played off-stream. I wonder how close it was? Was it a close 3-0 or a 3-0 where Cosmos dominated? Either way it'll be fun to see where Cosmos will end up on the PGR.
 

Lavani

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and MKleo was great at SDI to escape the game clinching U smash (although some people think he fell out otherwise...it was the SDI)
Thanks for drawing attention to this; I had actually assumed it was just rage-related on the initial watch, but looking back at it, Leo's SDI was actually immaculate, on hit 2 in particular:



which resulted, amazingly, in a phantom last hit:



literally one input was the difference between winning the tournament and going to game 5.

SDI saves lives.
 

The-Technique

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Thanks for drawing attention to this; I had actually assumed it was just rage-related on the initial watch, but looking back at it, Leo's SDI was actually immaculate, on hit 2 in particular:



which resulted, amazingly, in a phantom last hit:



literally one input was the difference between winning the tournament and going to game 5.

SDI saves lives.
In the post set interview with Vikki, Leo did say that he used "Bayo SDI" when he got caught by that up-smash, but he also admitted that he was "very lucky".

This doesn't seem to have been discussed much, so I'm going to put this here: Cosmos' run in Last Chance Qualifier was pretty sick. Set wins against Mr. R, Mistake, and Elegant (won one, lost one, in Grand Finals), taking 2nd place overall.

https://twitter.com/KeitaroTime/status/937385134071824384

I suppose I might lack data, but Corrin players seem to do rather well against Bayonetta, don't they? Was Cosmos-Mistake off-stream? The set is not on YouTube, so I assume it played off-stream. I wonder how close it was? Was it a close 3-0 or a 3-0 where Cosmos dominated? Either way it'll be fun to see where Cosmos will end up on the PGR.
Cosmos definitely stepped up this year, he came a long way from being a wifi-warrior to being a potential top 20 player.
 
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Heracr055

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I know many don't care for Bayo or Salem to succeed. However, I really think he's one of the best (if not the best) players of the game. He wows me with his neutral, spacing, conversions and KO methods. 3rd is nothing to scoff at in such a power-concentrated tourney. However, I look forward to him taking #1 on the PGR eventually.
 
D

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Thanks for drawing attention to this; I had actually assumed it was just rage-related on the initial watch, but looking back at it, Leo's SDI was actually immaculate, on hit 2 in particular:



which resulted, amazingly, in a phantom last hit:



literally one input was the difference between winning the tournament and going to game 5.

SDI saves lives.
I love getting information from this thread and many other threads. SDI does save lives, as it saved MKLeo's life in that round. If a Bayonetta attempts to zero to death, how easily will you escape when you SDI?
 
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A Scrub

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I know many don't care for Bayo or Salem to succeed. However, I really think he's one of the best (if not the best) players of the game. He wows me with his neutral, spacing, conversions and KO methods. 3rd is nothing to scoff at in such a power-concentrated tourney. However, I look forward to him taking #1 on the PGR eventually.
Salem is definitely a top 3 player, hands down. It seems like the only two players to consistently beat and challenge ZeRo is Salem and MKLeo.

Dabuz is so good, probably top 5 imo, and he makes excellent players look like scrubs. But the way ZeRo dismantled him shows that skill difference between them. Yet Salem and MKLeo give ZeRo a difficult time.
 
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Megamang

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You should be SDIin'g in disadvantage consistently. It helps mostly vs multi hits but it is useful in many situations. When you see that in smash 64 you can get out of CF uair chains with the small difference each SDI'd hit can change, you realize that small movement over time will make the difference. We saw it here. You should be SDIing.


Zero really really likes to try and mix up his defensive DI. You'll notice he goes behind bayo and MK ladders, even when it puts him higher in the air or over a high platform. This gets him by all but the best players, but the best players just follow the DI and kill him like he wasn't. Even non top 100 Luhtie noticed and punished him hard. I think it is a much worse habit than his MFs, and this is because I do the same thing. You think it can mix them up, and it can. But they can often see it early, go 'oh thats nice' and blast you off the top.


A much better option is to just SDI intensely. If you do it in the direction of escape DI, you can easily make it so they have to perfect the combo to get it to link. If you add a few units of movement to your escape with the SDI, you'll be escaping ladders and 3+ pieces with consistency. Then you have to learn when you should jump, airdodge, or counter attack.


---


Anyways, I think the biggest difference I see with MKLeo's marth is that his grabs always lead to damage, and often lead to kills. With how bad his throw damage is, a single followup will more than double his reward from a grab. Vs someone like bayo, you NEED that.


Yea, MKLeo really showed everyone how you can properly dair camp, he made MK look almost brawl safe.


Regarding his MU character choices, they are based on player interaction I am pretty sure. Who does zero overrate, and lose to? He loses to hard conversion characters like Ryu and... MK. His disadvantage is clearly his worse state, so a character that can blast him there is the obvious choice. And it works. Add in his perfect movement giving him some leeway in neutral for free punishes and it all adds up.


Salem? Salem thinks Cloud sucks, and you'd believe it when you see Cloud play the whole game offstage. His horizontal conversions are top notch and Clouds cannot handle them. So... Marth. And keep the pressure up.


---


Zero wanting to end the game isn't just 'playing the crowd'. What happens when the game goes long? Salem kills you with an uthrow conversion, or a gimp, or a dtilt conversion, or a witch time... yea. So he wanted the game over precisely so what happened to him wouldn't happen again; of course it caused him to lose but he was under tons of pressure and made a simple mistake.
 

MH-Jin

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I know many don't care for Bayo or Salem to succeed. However, I really think he's one of the best (if not the best) players of the game. He wows me with his neutral, spacing, conversions and KO methods. 3rd is nothing to scoff at in such a power-concentrated tourney. However, I look forward to him taking #1 on the PGR eventually.
I love seeing Salem succeed as he's one of my favorite players. He really does show what Bayonetta can do in neutral (especially with more defense /evasion oriented options. Even before he had his big explosion, he was still one of the players taking Zero to game 5 (Evo 2016 and Genesis 4)
 

|RK|

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Thanks for drawing attention to this; I had actually assumed it was just rage-related on the initial watch, but looking back at it, Leo's SDI was actually immaculate, on hit 2 in particular:



which resulted, amazingly, in a phantom last hit:



literally one input was the difference between winning the tournament and going to game 5.

SDI saves lives.
Are we sure this was SDI? From my understanding (and experience), people can just randomly fall out at times.
 

Lavani

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Are we sure this was SDI? From my understanding (and experience), people can just randomly fall out at times.
The first image is a before and after during hit 2's hitlag (note Diddy's in the same position in both). That's showing the SDI.
 
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Are we sure this was SDI? From my understanding (and experience), people can just randomly fall out at times.
Who knows? We will have to ask MKLeo if he did that, either way that was pretty interesting to watch live. I am sure he used SDI during Diddy Kong's up smash.

A much better option is to just SDI intensely.
I think so, you should SDI all the time intensely when you are in some kind of multi - hitting attack.

I feel like ZeRo's toughest players to fight right now is Salem and MKLeo, judging of the posts and the events I watched.
 
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The-Technique

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Are we sure this was SDI? From my understanding (and experience), people can just randomly fall out at times.
Post game interview Leo told Vikki he was using heavy SDI at that moment, but still felt that he lucked out.
 

HoSmash4

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If only Sheik had some sort of weakness we could determine, some number that we could apply to a certain trait of hers, perhaps we could actually come up with a reason why Sheik has only had 1 really good result in over an entire year...

It turns out that when the win condition for this game is to KO your opponent, being bad KO'ing keeps you out of top-tier results.
>consistent top 8 at every tourney void and Ramin enter
>Intense amount of high level reps only Bayo Diddy and Cloud contest

Cmon man... Yes killing is one of Sheiks weakness nor does perfect sheik exist but chill with the anti sheik sentiment

My views on where sheik have changed a lot overtime but I still think every matchup is not losing. However a lot of them are very volatile or even so on the grand scheme she does not oppress any relevant character on the selection screen like Bayo or Cloud can (yes, :4corrin::4luigi::4fox: all have good matchups vs Sheik). So I place sheik 6-10 based on consistency and it’s hard to be consistent when you have to earn all of your kills and have to rely on speed rather than range to oppress and keep out characters.

I feel she still has a lot of areas to improve and better management of macro situations can be done still. She still has intense frame data pressure and with ledge cancel needles she can snipe recovery angles like Corrin Mario and bayo up b to convert to a confirmed bouncing fish (something I can do consistently). There is still a lot of progress in sheiks meta and don’t expect her to fadeaway in 2018.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Cosmos definitely stepped up this year, he came a long way from being a wifi-warrior to being a potential top 20 player.
Lots of people doubted Corrin mains who said that once Cosmos gets the opportunity to travel more, Corrin's results will improve. It did happen, though. It probably helped that MkLeo uses Corrin at times. It would be interesting to see what MkLeo would do if he played more Corrin, although since he has a Cloud I doubt he'll play too much Corrin. I think Corrin might potentially be better than Marth, though. Cloud, of course, hurts both Corrin and Marth (probably Corrin more than Marth, since Corrin is a new DLC while Marth is a Melee veteran).

Fun fact: Cosmos was a Pikachu main (with a Lucas secondary) before Corrin was released.

(yes, :4corrin::4luigi::4fox: all have good matchups vs Sheik).
Many Corrin players consider Sheik her worst matchup. Why do you think Corrin goes even with Sheik (or do you believe she wins)?
 

Rizen

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SDI secretly means Stop Derping Idiot.

I can't see Sheik any lower than 4th best. Fox is really good but sheik's recovery, disadvantage and option coverage surpass him.
 

Shoopdawooper

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Any advice for certain mid tiers against Bayo (or any notable examples of one doing decent against her)?
This is just theorycrafting on my part, but on paper I believe Lucas to have a decent matchup against Bayonetta. He's floaty, which helps escaping her combo's. Has a good combo game himself, largely from grabs which are not witch time-able. He can compete on the mid range with her, with his excellent projectile and Zair. And he just overall kills Bayo earlier than she kills him.

When I tried to level up my Lucas to function as a Bayo counter though, it turned out that it's still harder in practice than on paper.
 

Rizen

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This is just theorycrafting on my part, but on paper I believe Lucas to have a decent matchup against Bayonetta. He's floaty, which helps escaping her combo's. Has a good combo game himself, largely from grabs which are not witch time-able. He can compete on the mid range with her, with his excellent projectile and Zair. And he just overall kills Bayo earlier than she kills him.

When I tried to level up my Lucas to function as a Bayo counter though, it turned out that it's still harder in practice than on paper.
Lucas shares the problem Link and ZSS have vs Bayo; good grab reward but slow grabs. Lucas' fastest grab is frame 12, same as Link, although he does have less end lag than other tether grabs at the expense of range.

There are several characters who do well vs Bayo or Cloud on paper but in practice lose in the risk vs reward game. Top tiers are tuned higher than lower characters. At least in ssb4 low characters are rarely shut down, unlike Brawl. It's an uphill battle.


Fun fact: Link has the best grab frame data of all the 'true' tether grabs. Patches were kind to his clawshot.
 
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PJB

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I think the MK Diddy matchup is worth exploring a bit. Leo made it seem like MK not only has a very strong Edgeguarding game in the matchup, but also is able to consistently put diddy offstage to set up that Edgeguarding game. Combined with his ladder potential and MK has a realistic chance to KO diddy at almost any percent. I’m not exactly saying that MK wins or that it’s an even matchup (I’d probably guess slight diddy favored, but volatile), but it is worth noting that zero has owned Leo other characters for a long time and leo’s MK has totally flipped the script
 

Tizio Random

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Esam just posted a video on his Youtube channel talking about the 4 characters he thinks deal best against Bayo. He cited: Diddy, Cloud, Pikachu and Sheik. He then talked about Corrin and Marth which he thinks are not quite as good the four previously said but have explosive power and range. Not even a mention of the PK boys or Luigi, though.


Opinions?
 
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Esam just posted a video on his Youtube channel talking about the 4 characters he thinks deal best against Bayo. He cited: Diddy, Cloud, Pikachu and Sheik. He then talked about Corrin and Marth which he thinks are not quite as good the four previously said but have explosive power and range. Not even a mention of the PK boys or Luigi, though.


Opinions?
Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Pikachu are all accurate choices but the one that caught my eye was Cloud. Cloud and Bayonetta can go either way. Cloud can punish her with aerial attacks which makes her struggle to land ( As ESAM said in his video ), or Bayonetta can abuse Cloud's tall hurt - box and exploitable recovery.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Ness does well against Bayonetta as well. Great punish game with high damage Fast Faller combos and good raw kill power against a relatively light character. While she sports more range than him it's doesn't wall him( getting past Bair can be a bit challenging) out and any trades will almost always favor Ness. Ness has safe killing aerials and of course Backthrow to help him play around Witch Time. I think the biggest thing that helps him do well against her however is ledge guarding, being one of the few characters who can actually harass and damage bayonetta safely off stage with his PKT and PKF is big and she really cannot play around PKT off stage that well. PKF will trigger upon coming contact with her up b as it pokes through the stage generating the fire pillar which forces her to pick a ledge option and Dsmash will catch any attempts at letting go of ledge and attempting to use her ABK back up stage so Ness is pretty effective at ledge trapping her as well.

The only time this MU in my experience is a pain is when you let Bayo have tri plats (Hard to deal with her platform camping) and when your caught off stage without a jump (this is more so a Ness problem rather than MU specific thing but Bayo can kill him off stage without a jump fairly freely with extended aerials or witch twist)
 
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|RK|

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Esam just posted a video on his Youtube channel talking about the 4 characters he thinks deal best against Bayo. He cited: Diddy, Cloud, Pikachu and Sheik. He then talked about Corrin and Marth which he thinks are not quite as good the four previously said but have explosive power and range. Not even a mention of the PK boys or Luigi, though.


Opinions?
Lucario, Mewtwo, Lucina, Greninja, Fox (according to CaptainZack), Luigi, Rosalina, Peach (or Samsora is just really good at the MU).

I suspect even more characters do just fine against her, but no point in speculation until someone shows it. But my answer stands - any character who can consistently do something about her range should be fine.
 
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Heracr055

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I want to promote discussion about M2 (since Wadi and, to a lesser extent, Aba used him this weekend). M2, from my limited experience, has great range on grounded buttons and several aerials (uair, fair and bair). By that metric, could we liken him to a swordie (especially since he has very limited hurtboxes, if any, on his tail)? I'd also like to gather thoughts on how safe his ground and aerial buttons are, with respect to top and high tiers. I feel he struggles with respect to Cloud and maybe Marcina.
 
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ARISTOS

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I think the MK Diddy matchup is worth exploring a bit. Leo made it seem like MK not only has a very strong Edgeguarding game in the matchup, but also is able to consistently put diddy offstage to set up that Edgeguarding game. Combined with his ladder potential and MK has a realistic chance to KO diddy at almost any percent. I’m not exactly saying that MK wins or that it’s an even matchup (I’d probably guess slight diddy favored, but volatile), but it is worth noting that zero has owned Leo other characters for a long time and leo’s MK has totally flipped the script
Additionally Diddy's slow air speed means that MK has a much easier time of catching him with uair and being able to convert. It's a huge thing in the MU, as it becomes much harder to drift away/AD against MK.
 
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Megamang

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M2's range is a bit worse than it seems at first. he does have disjoints, but all his moves actually extend his hurtbox a little. They combo better than most swordies and are a bit faster, so it is a pretty good tradeoff.

His bad double jump - specifically as an escape option - also comes back to haunt him in a few MUs. Having a uthrow 50/50 on him with shiek is great, and other characters put him in a bad spot even without a guaranteed 50.50 with uthrow.

Teleport makes his disadvantage reasonably good, but a hard read here can really hurt him with a strong grounded punish game.


Dtilt would be a massive wall, but it is low to the ground and therefor loses to jump ins. Not to mention the aforementioned hurtbox shifting because it isn't huge in most MUs, but someone like Marth with his dtilt can get weird f-smash kills because M2 poked forward a little.


Still, nair is incredible. This ties back into my last post, if you aren't SDIing m2's nair you deserve to die to it, full stop. You can pretty reasonably choose what side he spits you out on, which is enough for most characters to take a (strong) aerial punish rather than being footstooled and dying outright.


Something I am interested in is the new nair -> dair setup at the ledge. This seems like an absurdly high reward way to punish a ton of actions at the ledge, and if you drift intelligently you are usually pretty safe to use the nair to cover, say, a roll and still wind up not being punished.


Dair in general is pretty great. With the way his double jump works, you can kind of threaten a fair or uair and then dair them hard for dodging, which is great if you can land the sour hitbox because it will kill them vertically or horizontally, often when a spike wouldn't be that threatening. It has a huge hitbox and IIRC actually auto cancels from a short hop, which is a cool way to cover things like rolls with a strong punish while staying relatively safe.


Shadow ball is.... probably what makes m2 one of the best projectile characters in the game, combined with a reflector that is mobile, has great frame data, and actually punishes options that most reflectors lose to like shield. If you learn the way staling effects the ratios, you can learn when you are safe to reflect the shadow ball at a point where it is a moving deathball and will break reflectors, which is a cool answer to camping. The best reflector vs SB is actually palutena's, her low multiplier comes in handy here and she wins non staled, full charged shadow ball volleyball.


M2 is another character which I think you need to be able to c-bounce with. This kind of removes his weakness to cross up rolls in a few situations, because rolling into a mostly charged shadow ball is quite a losing situation.


Shadow ball is great against the shielding options that many choose. The ability to chase after a charged shadow ball was a great buff for mewtwo, if you land a fair on shield and have a fully charged shadow ball on deck, you can know that they can't shield anything and must roll to have a chance; running nair (ctick nair rant number 50 is coming soon!) covers tons of options in this situation and also doesn't have as much of a problem as just stuffing it.

Coming in backwards with a RAR is great, because the tail hitboxes are - for the most part - the best hitboxes m2 has. Plus when you are bad and often miss your cbounces like me, the b-reversed shadow ball can be a strong punish for anyone who wants to try and stuff your jump in.

The second jump helps m2 in a weird way as well. He can do SH Fair -> DJ instant fair, to hit a rising fair at ground level then quickly levitate to safety in the air. The safety of this varies greatly, some characters will hurt you for leaving the ground at all and then on triplats you are back to incredible safety, yet a hard read will hurt you bad. But, if you hit the rising fair you get a nice little string on the opponent, and m2's advantage is pretty freaking great with shadow balls and tilts covering landings quite well.


Shadow ball also gives him great mobility, Wadi exploits this very well. It really ties his kit together in a number of ways because he is a character that would get bodied by shield camping without it. Speaking of which, you can also patch this up and give m2 a pretty solid grab game by learning how to do the roll canceled grab consistently. The extra range is a huge addition to his rather poor range, just look at how jump canceled grabs can zone break in melee to get an idea of how powerful it is to suddenly be grabbing.


But... worst MUs are Diddy, Cloud, and Shiek... you really see why he isn't that popular despite all the above positives. Still, with DLC being stronger now than before he appreciates the decline in Diddy popularity; assuming my scene is like others many of the Diddies are now bayos and he seems to prefer this decently. YOU BETTER HAVE GOOD SDI, and even then it isn't always possible to not get laddered.


I am unsure on M2, I always felt he had a better Diddy MU than we all thought. Perhaps if you could reasonably escape dtilt usmash, even a third of the time, you might find this is not so bad. Especially since at the ledge you have mobility and great options, an amazing projectile, and you aren't in danger of dying until dtilt -bair starts being a threat.


None of the above is groundbreaking or even new, but that is what comes to mind when someone says M2.
 
D

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Nice to see Mewtwo being discussed in the thread. Is anyone going to talk about Fox's forward air to footstool and how many players use that to get easy kills? Trust me, it is very powerful and annoying to deal with, as well as nearly impossible to make it back on the ledge like Luigi's gimping tornado tactic. Fox's forward air is also good for keeping players in the air and potentially up airing them or even getting another forward air than footstool.


Notice the last part of the video. The forward airs kept AMac in the air and Larry Lurr basically shoved him off the ledge so he can JV3 him.
 
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