Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Shaya

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#1


Official Smash Wii U Backroom List V3 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

-TOP-
S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik:
A: :4sonic::4mario::4fox::rosalina::4mewtwo::4marth::4zss::4ryu:
-HIGH-
B: :4corrin::4metaknight::4pikachu::4megaman::4villager::4lucina::4lucario::4tlink::4peach::4greninja::4falcon:
-MID-
C: :4ness::4bowser::4luigi::4olimar::4dk::4yoshi::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4lucas::4rob::4robinm:
D: :4myfriends::4wario::4duckhunt::4shulk::4link::4gaw:
-LOW-
E: :4samus::4palutena::4littlemac::4feroy::4charizard::4pacman::4kirby::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario:
F: :4dedede::4ganondorf:[:4miigun:]:4zelda:[:4miibrawl::4miisword:]:4jigglypuff:

Text Version

-TOP-
S: Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik
A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Rosalina & Luma, Mewtwo, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu
-HIGH-
B: Corrin, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mega Man, Villager, Lucina, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach, Greninja, Captain Falcon
-MID-
C: Ness, Bowser, Luigi, Olimar, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Pit & Dark Pit, Lucas, R.O.B., Robin
D: Ike, Wario, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Link, Mr. Game & Watch
-LOW-
E: Samus, Palutena, Little Mac, Roy, Charizard, Pac-Man, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Dr. Mario
F: King Dedede, Ganondorf, [Gunner], Zelda, [Brawler, Swordsman], Jigglypuff

Please read the full article for any questions/queries on the voting processes
Things were done differently~

More details can also be found on the V3 Followup Article.

---

Previous Lists:
Version 1.0
Version 2.0
 
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Shaya

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#2
Welcome to the realm of which a once glorious empire stood, the Competitive Character Impressions thread.

However, it might be time we divvy things up a bit.
We're now the CIA: Competitive Insight and Analysis

Please refrain from justifying bad posts by virtue of "it's just my impression, mayne".

Please use the following threads for these purposes:
Tournament Results and stuff: https://smashboards.com/threads/445993/
Character Impressions: ---- (one day, in the general section)
 
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Thinkaman

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#3
This is the most strictly moderated thread on Smashboards. Read the rules!

Welcome to the Character Competitive Impressions thread. This is the master discussion covering comparisons of characters in Smash 4.

This includes comparisons to specific other characters, or the roster in general.

This can be in theory, results, or personal experience.

And yes, this includes tier lists. But let's lay down some ground rules.

--------------------------------------------------

THE RULES

First, obey the Smashboards Global Rules. This subforum is intended to be the best discussion area Smashboards has to offer. Infractions for Spam, Flaming, Trolling, and Harassment are given out with less leniency here than anywhere else, and punishments tend to be roughly double.


Posts in this thread must also adhere to special Topic and Substance Rules. We allow such a broad spread of interwoven topics here, that we actually require more rules to prevent things from spiraling off-topic. (Defending a bigger territory requires bigger walls.)

There's really only one rule: Posts have to be on-topic and have substance. But that's ambiguous, and so as a guideline topics allowed for discussion in this thread are divided into "Green Topics" and "Yellow Topics".

Green Topics are central topics that are explicitly okay to discuss as much as you want:
  • Hard Data on Character Usage or Wins
    • Online or Off
  • Character Matchup Explorations
    • Options, Interactions, Mindset
    • Non-obvious Character/Move Advantages/Disadvantages
    • Data, Theorycraft, and Expert Opinions
    • What skill tests does the matchup focus on, for each side?
    • Stage Preferences
  • Tournament Results
    • Characters or Players
  • Metagame
    • Implications of rulesets, patches, or community trends
  • Comparisons of Gameplay in Different Environments
    • Different Regions or Communities
    • 1v1 vs 2v2 vs 3v3 vs 4v4 vs FFA
  • Initial Posting of Smash News
Yellow Topics include things that, without context, risk diverting the topic away from characters or boil down to opinion. You may talk about Yellow Topics, but if and only if you can tie each one back to a Green Topic in the same post. (If you are doing it right, this should be entirely organic and you shouldn't have to worry about it.)
  • Tier Lists
    • Includes any form of partial tier list
    • "Top 15", bottom 10", "who is the worst character", "viable threats", ect.
  • Character Matchup Lists/Summaries
    • Includes any form of matchup ratios
  • Obvious Character/Move Advantages/Disadvantages
    • "Mac loses the matchup. He has an amazing ground game, but his recovery is awful."
    • "Mac wins the matchup. His recovery is awful, but he has an amazing ground game."
    • If the reasons you give for something are already known to all, you haven't done anything to make it more than a statement of opinion.
  • "Vacuum" Comparisons
    • Direct comparison of individual moves or properties in isolation
    • "Which is better, Mario bair or Luigi bair?"
  • Hypothetical Changes
    • Includes patch wishes
  • Patch Notes
  • Tournament Hype
    • "Wow, Reggie beats Bill 3-1."
    • "That dair spike! If she had just buffered that ledge option..."
    • "I can't believe he is sticking with Rosalina after that match."
  • Rulesets
  • Custom Moveset Choices
  • Other Smash/Fighting Games
    • Includes changes to characters or matchups across games
    • Includes comparisons of tier lists or balance across games
    • Includes comparisons of which skills games focus on
  • General Gameplay Advice or Guides
    • Giving or Asking
  • Discussion of Smash News
Red Topics are explicitly banned. Any post that focuses on them is grounds for a spam infraction.
  • Tier List Meta Discussion
    • "Do tiers exist? How about tires?"
    • "How important are tiers compared to player skill?"
    • "How should tier lists be constructed and expressed?"
    • "What do tier labels really mean?"
    • "What is the point of tier lists?"
  • Matchup Ratio Meta Discussion
    • "What do/should matchup ratios mean, exactly?"
    • "What is the best way to express matchup ratios?"
    • "How precise can we really claim matchup ratios are?"
    • "What constitutes a 'counter'?"
  • Game Preference Discussion
    • Includes how much you don't respect/like FFAs or online play.
  • Ruleset Preference Discussion
  • Non-Constructive Criticism (on any topic)
  • Meta Discussion on Smashboards Rules
  • Naming Moves or Combos

Finally, there are also special Tier List Posting Rules. Tier lists are a helpful way to quickly summarize and compare opinions+experience across the community, as well as provide historical snapshots of the metagame. However, the posting of tier lists often spreads like a virus and leads to a race-to-the-bottom in which discussion focuses more and more on stating opinions without substance. As such:
  • If there is already a tier list post on the current 50-post page, no one else may post one.
    • No exceptions.
  • They may only be posted by regular members of the discussion, or extremely well-respected players.
    • If you have to ask, the answer is no.
  • We don't care about your opinions. We care about your observations, reflections, and conclusions. Never, ever post just a list.
    • Why did you need to post this list? What is different? What does it mean?
  • Similarly, replies to a personal tier list are held to the same standard.
    • In particular, non-constructive criticism will be moderated harshly.
    • The correct response to a poor tier list, like most bad content, is to not respond.
  • The creator of a list may answer single replies asking for clarifications, but further discussion of the list itself ends there.
    • If a personal tier list and any clarifications lead to discussion of Green Topics, great! But discussion will never be allowed to continue on a list itself, for its own sake.
Breaking these thread-specific rules is likely to result not only in (strict) standard moderation penalties, but is also likely to earn a temporary ban from this individual thread.

If you have any questions about these posting guidelines, please PM ( Liberation Liberation ) or Thinkaman Thinkaman !
... or that Shaya guy.

--------------------------------------------------

Legacy Threads::
http://smashboards.com/threads/first-official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list.429817/
http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/
http://smashboards.com/threads/char...sions-tourneys-tiers-theories-tactics.422864/
http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/
http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-mlg-finals.420852/
http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-tbh5.419494/
http://smashboards.com/threads/evo-2kxv-competitive-impressions.410539/
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/
 

ARGHETH

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#6
...and Robin's 34th.
Also, i'm assuming there's going to be a long argument about Corrin after this.
 
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Locuan

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#14
Ryu is still considered top tier, really? Top end of high their I can somewhat understand but his results have been no where even close to the rest of the characters in A and S.
From the article:
Liberation said:
The main character affected by this system was Ryu, who was a marginal distance from both ZSS and Corrin. We decided to round him up, finalizing with a total of 7 tiers.
 

Seagull Joe

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#17
Link's pseudo rise being overrated af is starting to annoy me.
Do you realize that this character hasn't done much if you look closer, especially on a global scale?

I mean, look at the best players of this character:
- Cat & Izaw can't get consistent results in EUROPE. Enough said
- Scizor does decent at MSM and some Socal locals, and that's it. On a tournament of bigger scale, i've yet to see Scizor break Top 32, which is a significant spot that every Mid Tier character should have reached once.
- EspeonCH's pretty good but stuck in British Columbia as of now. Got good wins recently, on Captain L.
- T is inconsistent and has more mixed to bad results than good, even though recent events say otherwise, but not by much, T is still very much able to drown to no names or mediocre players ( Seagull )

I don't see it honestly. *** matchups against every Top tier but Mewtwo ( & Villager ) , results that don't live up to the expectations of their player ( who usually tend to massively overrate their character ) , and overall, the recipe for a character that doesn't deserve to be ranked anywhere close to DH or G&W Imo.
My placings and wins of all time are better than some of the current PGR. I have literally one bad placing (65th at CEO 2016) and then a slew of top 33 or better at every other tourney I've ever entered (Of nationals) dating back to like CEO 2015. At any regional or local I went to I got top 5 or higher.

Calm yourself peasant.

:018:
 
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#19
Oh hey you guys didn't fall for the Shulk/Duck Hunt/Link/Lucas hype train too badly, nor did you screw over Ike. That's not bad at all. Lucina is still a tad low but that's understandable maybe this won't be a bad tier list-

-sees Corrin's placement-

https://media.giphy.com/media/vWDrezW0rMjmM/giphy.gif

Yes sir a character that struggles to get top 16 in majors sure belongs at 13th above a character that pulled off top 8 multiple times! Ahead of several characters that did that actually! What a hilarious joke. His results have been trending downwards, he's losing secondary usage.... and you all vote him upwards?

There is no defence for that. None what so ever. 100% incorrect. Not a single shred of logic to it other than "B-B-But my still unproven potential that goes against his current direction! It matters the most!"

Please teach everyone who voted him that high how to read numbers. Because clearly they only went with gut and didn't even glance at results.
 
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#23
From the article:The main character affected by this system was Ryu, who was a marginal distance from both ZSS and Corrin. We decided to round him up, finalizing with a total of 7 tiers.
Ok, so top tier only due to a technicality, Basically Ryu in top tiers is the equivalent of that one guy in a group that people will pat on the back saying " dont worry you did a gooood job, you did your best" lol
 
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Yikarur

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#24
I personally don't agree with Bayo being first.
It's pure theorycrafting to put her in first. She doesn't have the results to back up the claim, that she's the best character in the game. It's solely based on theory, but a lot of people feel extremely opressed by Bayonetta.
For me, I'm scared the most about Bayonetta. A lot of people seem to feel the same so I can understand why most people really feel she might be the best character in the game.
I think the case for Cloud and Diddy is stronger at the moment, but Bayonetta might be in her own tier at some point in this game's life span and the tier list is representing this exact thought and fear that people inherent.
 
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Floor

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#26
Top 18 isn't high enough. The voters could do better; we can do better.
 

Ropalme1914

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#27
Ryu is still considered top tier....really? Top end of high tier I can understand but his overall results have been no where even close to the rest of the characters in A and S.
The difference between Ryu and ZSS and between Ryu and Corrin were basically the same, although it was a great difference for both of them. He was just rounded up just like said on the original post, so yeah, he is basically at bottom of top tier and top of high tier at the same time.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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#28
How exactly did Corrin wind up one spot outside of Top tier? Results literally do not support this at all, he's a good character but he hasn't done that much at all to be warranted that high a placing. Also Diddy should be number one but it's literally just one spot so w/e. The rest of the list looks fairly decent however, Roy still criminally underrated.

As far as with Ness 24th is about right for him and it may be the top of mid tier but still believe he is a high tier gate keeper, a lot it's just one spot so I may be arguing semantics here.
 

Trunks159

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#29
I personally don't agree with Bayo being first.
It's pure theorycrafting to put her in first. She doesn't have the results to back up the claim, that she's the best character in the game. It's solely based on theory, but a lot of people feel extremely opressed by Bayonetta.
For me, I'm scared the most about Bayonetta. A lot of people seem to feel the same so I can understand why most people really feel she might be the best character in the game.
I think the case for Cloud and Diddy is stronger at the moment, but Bayonetta might be in her own tier at some point in this game's life span and the tier list is representing this exact thought and fear that people inherent.
I would agree, but the difference between #1 and #2 or #3 is kind of unimportant. They're in the same tier.

Besides Corrin, the tier list is fine.
 
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HoSmash4

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#31
Bayonetta is #1 purely based on 'B tier players' upsetting established top players, and the sheer quantity of strong Bayonetta players.

Can she win a Supermajor? This is yet to be proven. Her prowess and success on the top 8 stage is somewhat underwhelming. Can you upset a top player in bo3 format with Bayonetta? Every round 2 pool says yes.
 
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FullMoon

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#32
I think the thing that surprised me the most in the results was how low Ness ended up though I don't entirely disagree with it.

The main thing that I don't really understand is how Corrin ended in that position, granted, in my vote I had him in 19th but 13th seems a bit much to me.
 

Liberation

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#34
It's worth noting that the top 3 had the lowest standard deviation and the top 2 were very close in terms of ordered score. Sheik was also pretty close in terms of ordered score and standard deviation as well. Regardless of one's idea on what that order should be, it's become generally clear that the game has a top 3/4 of sorts. Just thought I'd note that here.

Also, as per usual, a followup article will be done, which will address common concerns and note various observations alongside statements from other 4BR members.
 

MistressRemilia

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#35
I legitimately wonder what is it that people find so redeeming about Ness to be put above Luigi.
Worse matchups, worse recent results, worse theory as a whole ( Luigi's advantage state is more explosive than Ness' in many ways, their neutral is about as good with a struggle that i would say is more apparent with Ness than with Luigi, and Luigi has the better disadvantage out there, even if both of their disadvantage share shaky landing & recovery )

Doc's placement truly saddens me, as there is so much redeemable assets about this character, and i do feel like the character is judged fairly unfairly & poorly by a majority of players around, much like Lucina. But i'd avoid talking about this subject which has been brought up quite a lot & has gone literally nowhere, because most people don't have sufficient knowledge to talk about these & thus end up talking about their respective relatives. As i said before, i truly hope that, in the near future, either this kind of behavior doesn't happen anymore, or we'll stop ranking the clones entirely because of their fogginess within the meta.

If i had to say something about the tier list as a whole, it's that its overly theoritical. Way too many voters most likely threw out some of their boldest opinions, with little to no care about the current metagame, its results, and the many things that can be deduced from them, whether its matchups or viability. This would explain Bayonetta's 1st place, Ryu's 12th, Corrin's 13th, Lucina's 18th, Toon Link's 20th, Yoshi's 29th, Little Mac's 42th and Dr.Mario's 50th. These are my main sources of disagreement, everything else i find rather acceptable & shows a decent balance between theory & results.
 
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Yikarur

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#36
My placings and wins of all time are better than some of the current PGR. I have literally one bad placing (65th at CEO 2016) and then a slew of top 33 or better at every other tourney I've ever entered (Of nationals) dating back to like CEO 2015. At any regional or local I went to I got top 5 or higher.

Calm yourself peasant.

:018:
Clarification would've been enough. No need to insult someone.
 

mountain_tiger

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#38
Clarification would've been enough. No need to insult someone.
Under normal circumstances I'd agree, but given that it was pretty rude to refer to him as 'mediocre' in the first place, IMO his response is 100% justified.

At any rate, I honestly don't have too many significant disagreements with this list i.e. not many placings I'd put more than 4 places differently myself. One or two oddities stick out (mainly Corrin), but otherwise it's looking pretty good, and Peach's placement in particular is more or less perfect. Even Lucina's placement seems about right.

Good work by all involved I'd say.
 

FeelMeUp

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#39
Best list so far.
Top 4 placements don't matter, imo, aside from :4cloud2:belonging at the bottom. Loses to every other member of the top 4 with varying degrees of severity so him being 3rd is a little odd. However, if we're looking at his matchups with a lot of the bottom/low tiers and using those to place him, I suppose it makes sense.
Most of high tier's placements seem correct. The only disagreements would be arguing semantics and shifting a few over one or two placements.
Ryu being the top of High/Bottom of Top seems fine, as well.
Arguments over "who's the worst pile of crap" in mid-low tier and under have always been pointless to me so those all look fine.
Good work to everyone in the 4BR. Very happy with how this turned out.
 
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