Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

Yay we made it to mid tier ^_^

Only real gripe is Sheik being out of the top 3, everything else I can live with. Great job!

 

[PK Gaming]

Take 3

I think is too high, but I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that her placement is completely unwarranted. It's not like I have unconditional faith in the character either, but I feel the like the voters were pretty qualified for the most part. Like, if Corrin had to be somewhere, it would be around the lower end of high tier.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Corrin is a mid tier character with one or two top tier moves.

Should probably be in low high tier.

 

[Floor]

Prying myself from the "Lucina only 18th" disaster, I'll put in a few cents on Corrin. Corrin is a little high but it's hard to say for sure when you look at the rest of the roster and their seemingly arbitrary placement. He could drop a little but he's by no means mid tier. Basing the entirety of a tier list off of results and results alone is ludicrous. Because of Corrin's to-be-desired matchup spread and his/her solid moveset and tools, I see the case being made for top 15

 

[MistressRemilia]

My placings and wins of all time are better than some of the current PGR. I have literally one bad placing (65th at CEO 2016) and then a slew of top 33 or better at every other tourney I've ever entered (Of nationals) dating back to like CEO 2015. At any regional or local I went to I got top 5 or higher.

Calm yourself peasant.

My apologies if i offended you, i did not mean to, but mediocre was an obvious overstatement here.
33rd at EVO, TBH6 & Zero Saga. 25th at Super Smash Con. These aren't exactly what i'd call stellar placings. Much like a lot of players, even some within the PGR, we do not consider you as bad players, just a bit unremarkable, especially when, as a user of the top tier character that is Sonic, you face competition with fellow Sonic mains that have stronger wins or results.
You're good enough for me to know who you are, and that's quite good already. However, there are a fair amount of players around the world that are better than you, even when considering that they play worse characters.

 

[ARGHETH]

Prying myself from the "Lucina only 18th" disaster, I'll put in a few cents on Corrin. Corrin is a little high but it's hard to say for sure when you look at the rest of the roster and their seemingly arbitrary placement. He could drop a little but he's by no means mid tier. Basing the entirety of a tier list off of results and results alone is ludicrous. Because of Corrin's to-be-desired matchup spread and his/her solid moveset and tools, I see the case being made for top 15

I'd put him as somewhere in the 15-20 range, personally.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm glad to see zard move out of the bottom ten placement, I'm trying NOT to be biased here (red topic), he's had some results as a co-main and some solo zards have gotten results.
Still is painful to see him near high bottom tier and not breaking into lower tier but as previously said no bias. He has an awful advantage state, his disadvantage state is the same as other super-heavies and his strengths are neutral and edgeguarding. The list overall is really solid. I approve.
Now gonna stop posting to avoid spamming...did plenty of that in the last thread.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Fourth highest in the cast (behind Olimar, DH, and Pit)

That I know - I'm curious as to how her placings probably looked like with to give her this.
Lucina will be a controversial topic for a long time - we'll have to get used to seeing her at the top of the standard deviation for most lists to come.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Prying myself from the "Lucina only 18th" disaster, I'll put in a few cents on Corrin. Corrin is a little high but it's hard to say for sure when you look at the rest of the roster and their seemingly arbitrary placement. He could drop a little but he's by no means mid tier. Basing the entirety of a tier list off of results and results alone is ludicrous. Because of Corrin's to-be-desired matchup spread and his/her solid moveset and tools, I see the case being made for top 15

how the hell is Lucina being in 18th a disaster?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

is definitely a bit too high, but saying he's merely a mid tier is a stretch and it shows you are absolutely oblivious to what he's accomplished.

I kinda wish Corrin was in mid C tier so I could complain about him being underrated instead of literally everyone talking about him being 12th.

Wait, what? People are now starting to refer to Corrin as a "he"? Wha...did...did I somehow end up in a different dimension or something? lol Could also explain why he/she is ranked jthat high. Like I ended up in a reality where the 1.1.5 Patch did not nerf Corrin and his/her Down-B could still rival Bayo's witch time for the counter move able to kill and BS percents.

 

[Nah]

"we're the CIA now" lol

So, given Corrin's placement at 13th/top of high tier, clearly a fair few Backroom members had to have placed Corrin pretty high in their votes. So if you're reading this thread, please explain. Like a lot of people in here, I don't see what's so amazing about the character to warrant that position.

 

[Seagull Joe]

My apologies if i offended you, i did not mean to, but mediocre was an obvious overstatement here.
33rd at EVO, TBH6 & Zero Saga. 25th at Super Smash Con. These aren't exactly what i'd call stellar placings. Much like a lot of players, even some within the PGR, we do not consider you as bad players, just a bit unremarkable, especially when, as a user of the top tier character that is Sonic, you face competition with fellow Sonic mains that have stronger wins or results.
You're good enough for me to know who you are, and that's quite good already. However, there are a fair amount of players around the world that are better than you, even when considering that they play worse characters.

I should consider myself lucky a player like yourself knows who I am. How proud I am to be known by "MistressRemilia".

 

[ARGHETH]

That I know - I'm curious as to how her placings probably looked like with to give her this.
Lucina will be a controversial topic for a long time - we'll have to get used to seeing her at the top of the standard deviation for most lists to come.

Well, looking at the data, she got an average score of ~19 and a standard deviation of ~6, so I'd assume most were in the 13-25 range.

how the hell is Lucina being in 18th a disaster?

We just got out of one Lucina argument, I'd rather not go into another...

Wait, what? People are now starting to refer to Corrin as a "he"?

I use male Corrin, so that's why. Also, female Corrin is trash the Backroom used male Corrin, so people will talk about the male version.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I should consider myself lucky a player like yourself knows who I am. How proud I am to be known by "MistressRemilia".

relax, dude.
she already apologized.
it's not like she threatened your life. all she says is that you ain't tip top level amazing.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Clarification would've been enough. No need to insult someone.

Coming from someone who freaked out about Mii mains. Aight. Done posting for now. Back to hibernation on swf.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Glad Charizard is out of bottom 10, lower than where I think he is but still glad he moved up.

Just needs more solid presence outside of being a pocket counterpick.

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't know which I like better: having a character that's not the worst in the game or being able to say Ganon tier.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Lucina in 18th is almost the perfect spot, imo. If Marth was in Corrin's place, I'd have no complaints:

Now, different question than usual: My friend really v really really really really wants to know what Sonic did to deserve being above Mario.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This tier list does bring up a good discussion topic though.

How far apart are the tiers in this game?

Because I'm seeing what I consider some threatening characters in lower tiers, even when I play high tier characters.

 

[my_T]

This list is actually pretty good as far as grouping goes. My only gripe is that Olimar and Ryu are not in high tier and Roy is not in mid tier

Also, still failing to see how Corrin is overrated. The character is obviously good when you look at her but barely has any rep. At the tippy top level Earth uses her as a secondary from time to time and that's it. He does well when he uses her and has taken sets off of KEN, Shuton, Gomamugitya, and Tsu using all or mostly Corrin. Some people in here either don't care or don't keep up with Japanese results sooo...i don't know

Ryuga also does alright with her but he seems more high level than top level in regards to skill. Same goes for Cosmos and Ryo who rarely show up to anything.

 

[Das Koopa]

My placings and wins of all time are better than some of the current PGR. I have literally one bad placing (65th at CEO 2016) and then a slew of top 33 or better at every other tourney I've ever entered (Of nationals) dating back to like CEO 2015. At any regional or local I went to I got top 5 or higher.

Calm yourself peasant.

damn son

 

[TDK]

If we could not piss off the only top player who posts here somewhat regularly on day 1, that'd be great.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Like many have already stated, Corrin might've been placed a bit too high. I personally think that Corrin has the potential to be #13, but the current results don't back that up. Perhaps once Cosmos starts attending more tournaments we'll see if Corrin deserves to be #13. Until then, I would have prefered if they placed her around #17 or so instead.

Corrin is really good. Is she good enough to be #13? Maybe. Does her current results support it? No. Does her current theory support it? Maybe. In this case, I think people should've been a bit more cautios and voted her a bit lower until we get more evidence (in the form of results). I certainly think she belongs in high tier, but I would have put her in the lower end of high tier for now.

 

[FeelMeUp]

If we could not piss off the only top player who posts here somewhat regularly on day 1, that'd be great.

sucking his **** when he's being rude and inflammatory towards a mild-mannered comment would be even more stupid

OT: fox kinda sucks in the new ruleset with Lylat being re-added

 

[L9999]

Official Smash Wii U Backroom List V3 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

-TOP-
S:
A:
-HIGH-
B:
-MID-
C: ()
D:
-LOW-
E:
F: [][]

List is very solid, although I have some things to say.
The top 4 I totally agree, but should be #1, he is clearly better than .

deserve better placings, at the very least above , whose placing I'm ok for now.
Now I can name Seth and Sky for performing well with Yoshi, but he should be in D Tier and not above who had huge advancements last year.
I obviously disagree with , but there is no proof to back it up.

 

[JB333]

Genuinely surprised on how much I agree with this list. I was looking through it to find a questionable placement, but the only things I really disagree with are the placements of Ryu and Corrin (I feel that both are a tad too high).

That being said, I find it interesting to see Lucario in top 20 on a list made before Frostbite. (I just thought he wouldn't be top 20 cause he didn't have a signature performance before Frostbite).

 

[Gamegenie222]

Yay new list. Just leaving my mark here also robin should be at least one to two spots higher that is all.

 

[The-Technique]

Yoshi is waaaaay overrated still, he does not belong in a spot above R.O.B and Robin

Besides that I find this tier list mostly accurate

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is waaaaay overrated still, he does not belong in a spot above R.O.B and Robin

Besides that I find this tier list mostly accurate

I'm predicting that Yoshi will find it's way into high tier at the end of this game's life span.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm predicting that Yoshi will find it's way into high tier at the end of this game's life span.

Do you think Yoshi deserves to be high tier or do you just think that's where he'll end up?

I look at your most recent MU chart and he loses 14 MUs (16 if you count Lucina and Dark Pit individually), 3 of them -2. That doesn't look like a high tier to me.

 

[Mocha]

Oh, Zelda. One day, girl. One day. Then people wonder why 85% of her facial expressions are angry.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Summary?
Said the same thing we did.
Top 10 definitely, no mention of top 5, issues with .
Getting harder and harder to play as time goes on and people figure her out more.
Lackluster/predictable neutral makes it hard to keep up with the neutral monsters.
"Some matchups may be really hard but she can pull them off." Probably due to the aforementioned harsh punish game.

 

[Zelder]

The thing I like most about this list is shrinking the number of tiers. 11 was ridiculous, 9 is too many, 7 just looks neat and tidy in my brain (yes I know that they're semi-arbitrary, I just like the way it's organized this time).

Also Bowser and Luigi too low imo.

 

[MERPIS]

Oh boy...where do I begin...?
Mario is too high, we loses to the majority of relevant threats and he is only really relevant in top 10 due to Ally carrying him and his good MU's against Sheik, Bayonetta, Diddy, and Fox. His lack of range and kill power is a serious flaw, especially for a top tier...

Mewtwo is a little too low, this character has been putting in work since the day Aba won POUND. He wins against a lot of relevant threats, including but not limited to, Mario, Sonic, Sheik, Fox, ZSS, and Rosalina. His lightness IS a huge weakness to some characters, like Ryu. But having excellent range, awesome kill power, the best mobility in the game, one of the best projectiles, and a really good recovery, puts him a little higher, and Diddy MU isn't as terrible as people used to think, either. Mewtwo can really screw Diddy offstage, and DI allows Mewtwo to escape Diddy's most reliable kill combo against him. And Cloud, according to results, is very volatile, but even.

Corrin is too high, he may have excellent range, kill power, and combos, but his mobility outside of unsafe side b, is really bad. His recovery isn't the best, either. In terms of MU's, his only real big wins are against Mario, and Rosalina. His results are weird, they seem to fluctuate.

Ryu is too high. Though only by one or two spots. He has the same weaknesses as Corrin, He also has really slow results ever since Trela's 300 something placement at EVO. In terms of MU's, he gets shut out and shut down REALLY hard by some high tiers, even, he gets shut down by Villager, Sonic, Marth, Mewtwo, Rosalina, these make him very hard to place in the top tier, top 15/20? Probably, just not anything above.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

apparently the character who has won multiple majors, super majors, and is used by two top players is over rated

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This tier list does bring up a good discussion topic though.

How far apart are the tiers in this game?

Because I'm seeing what I consider some threatening characters in lower tiers, even when I play high tier characters.

Personally, most of it is really close together.

I don't see it really being that far off on an overall level, even more so compared to other games.

 

[Nobie]

I think one of the big problems with how people perceive character viability isn't just that they place too much stock in results ("This character hasn't PROVEN themselves yet!!!") but also that people tend to assign values to characters as a result of placements, which makes the label of "mid tier" for something carry certain values associated with the term. Perhaps it's a relic of Melee and Brawl, where the disparity in tiers is so monstrous.

How many times have you heard this before: "A top tier is a character that can win a very large tournament."

At first, it sounds like it should be true, because that means that particular character was able to overcome some crazy odds. Surely they must be among the best if they can defeat the field! However, this is assuming that the top tier is an exclusive club of WINNERS, and that mid tier is the heaven of guys who can't hold a candle to the top.

But while currently no mid tier on this new list has won anything big, they certainly have results. If you look at the exact middle characters at 27th and 28th, it's Olimar and DK. If you look at the middle of mid tier, it's Pit/Dark Pit and Lucas. All of those characters have made their marks. While I could argue about some of their placements to a certain extent, I find myself not really willing to put in the effort when I reframe the meaning of a "mid tier," away from dull could've-beens to those with tools that average out to good but not great. Olimar has weaknesses but as shown by Shuton can be played around in a lot of cases. DK is the definition of extreme strengths and weaknesses. Pit is the poster child for a diverse but not overwhelming tool kit. Lucas is versatile in his own right. All of them have strong players representing them and doing things at regionals and above.

Compare this with the mid tier of Melee, where Mario, the middlest of mid tiers, doesn't even win locals (as far as I know). Mid tier starts to mean probably what it always should have: average, instead of mild train wrecks.

Can an average character win a major? I don't think it's that farfetched. Sure, their chances drastic go down, but the right decisions made enough times in a row, without some of the really glaring weaknesses of the low and bottom tiers, could lead to gold.

To put it a different way: In 1994 George Foreman was 45 years old. His best days were behind him. But then he fought Michael Moorer, and though he was behind for 10 rounds, came back with some solid hits, KO'd his opponent, and became the world heavyweight boxing champion. In video game terms, no one would call Foreman a top tier, but he was still the champ in that moment. I could see the same thing happening in Smash 4.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Now I can name Seth and Sky for performing well with Yoshi, but he should be in D Tier and not above who had huge advancements last year

Seth is a solid yoshi that has been getting some upsets on players like Day and Mr.E/pugwest (was either both or one of them) as of recent, but sky isn't a solid yoshi in terms of results. He only just recently started doing the MSM weeklies finally and he's doing barely average or above it.

Don't care how many top/high level players he beats in friendlies and convinces them through winning a friendly set or whatever to say on twitter how good his Yoshi is, until it actually does something on stage it's just another Yoshi like the rest of us. What's even more sad is that people will still parrot about him being the best Yoshi in the world while proceeding to regurgitate that sky vs dunkey joke as if they're clever.

Spoiler: guess what tho

it isn't clever lul
No bias either but the drama surrounding him and Wall just seems dumb too, almost like he actively tries to find every opportunity on twitter or even posting himself to downplay wall or every yoshi when he isn't mentioned in another person's tweet that he isn't the best yoshi so he'll roast them outside of raptor at times.
Only minor thing that rubs me the wrong way.

Yoshi is honestly too solid of a character to be in the same tier as characters like GnW or wario. As for placement that's all up to the votes and das koopa data too.

 

[Yikarur]

Do you think Yoshi deserves to be high tier or do you just think that's where he'll end up?

I look at your most recent MU chart and he loses 14 MUs (16 if you count Lucina and Dark Pit individually), 3 of them -2. That doesn't look like a high tier to me.

I think Yoshi's playstyle is underdeveloped and that a lot of players, even most of the ones who are deemed to be a high-level Yoshi, play him pretty badly for the long run.

Most Yoshi player do well against people who don't know the match-up but get completely destroyed from people who do.

There is a huge difference in playstyles you can attempt as mid-level and high to top level.
The playstyle you can use to beat mid-level players gets demolished in top level play. I've seen a lot of Yoshis who have this exact problem.

The other problem is wifi playstyle vs. offline playstyle. Yoshi is a monster on wifi, his combos and punish windows are at a range where the few frames cut of your reaction time by wifi make an extreme difference.
A lot of Yoshis are stuck in that wifi playstyle that doesn't work offline. It straight up doesn't work.
We have a Yoshi in germany who wins a lot of wifi tournaments. Even takes sets of our very best players. But he drowed in pools one tournament and almost ran 0-2 in another.


My MU chart is outdated and pretty pessimistic right now and it tried to reflect how Yoshis metagame is right now. I tried to be as objective as possible.

My thoughts right now:
- Cloud a nd Mewtu might only be -1, Some Yoshis think Diddy is only -1 as well for whatever reason. Cloud is less likely to get to -1 but I'm working on it.
- Fox is even. I'm sure.
- Corrin, Marth, Lucina, Pit and Pikachu could be even.
- I have a huge mental block against projectile users so I really don't know if -1 on TL, even on Samus, Rob and Villager couldn't be better.

I got some optimism atm. I'm scared that Yoshis bad match-ups will hold him back. But maybe I can find a way to overcome them.

 

[L9999]

Seth is a solid yoshi that has been getting some upsets on players like Day and Mr.E/pugwest (was either both or one of them) as of recent, but sky isn't a solid yoshi in terms of results. He only just recently started doing the MSM weeklies finally and he's doing barely average or above it.

Don't care how many top/high level players he beats in friendlies and convinces them through winning a friendly set or whatever to say on twitter how good his Yoshi is, until it actually does something on stage it's just another Yoshi like the rest of us. What's even more sad is that people will still parrot about him being the best Yoshi in the world while proceeding to regurgitate that sky vs dunkey joke as if they're clever.

Spoiler: guess what tho

it isn't clever lul
No bias either but the drama surrounding him and Wall just seems dumb too, almost like he actively tries to find every opportunity on twitter or even posting himself to downplay wall or every yoshi when he isn't mentioned in another person's tweet that he isn't the best yoshi so he'll roast them outside of raptor at times.
Only minor thing that rubs me the wrong way.

Yoshi is honestly too solid of a character to be in the same tier as characters like GnW or wario. As for placement that's all up to the votes and das koopa data too.

I know Sky isn't the big thing, I named the Yoshi results on top of my head that were impressive, if I were going in general I would name Firefly or Papa Wall. I can see your point on Yoshi's tier, but I still think Robin and Lucas have proven themselves more.