Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[G. Stache]

When Japan players have trouble with Luigi, there's probably quite a bit of MU inexperience. The closest thing Japan seems to have for good Luigi experience is Ron's secondary Luigi (this is part of the reason Japan seems to see Luigi as low mid tier). It's kind of become a trend that Japan players get caught off guard from Elegant. At least at first. Granted, I don't want to take too much away from Elegant. He did beat Ranai and Komo in sets (and took Komo to a game 5 situation on the first GF set) and placed second at the tournament. His Luigi is actually incredible and the fact that his Luigi can beat players of this caliber at all should still be noted imo.

I will say, however; it was very fortunate that Elegant has a lot of Villager experience from Aarvark and quite a lot of Cloud experience in general too.

 

[HoSmash4]

Elegant practices with Aavark a lot so MU experience is in his favour

 

[Nah]

: The theory behind corrin is incredible

Is it really though?

Cuz nobody's ever given a detailed explanation afaik as to what actually makes this character (potentially) so good. All I've ever heard is "but the range tho" "but side B tho" "but combos tho" "but Cosmos tho", which are hardly what I'd call convincing arguments.

Nobody has yet to legitimately refute the idea that the character has issues in neutral (read: does not control it vs much of the cast), nor has anybody shot down the idea that maybe people in general just don't know how to play the MU properly.

 

[MERPIS]

:She is 3 spots too low and should be ranked #1. Sheik is still clearly the best character imo.I think this because she's the safest character in the game besides maybe and she has no losing mus and a relatively small pool of even mus(her even mus iirc are diddy m2 and mario). These combined with her immensely oppressive neutral amazing disadvantage state and very strong advantage state make her the best in the game. Part of my post from the old thread also had reasons why I think she's the best.

Her killing problems are huge and people need to see that. Also the only reason why she has no -1s (Mewtwo) Is due to her incredibly huge and diverse top player base. Mr. R, ANTi, K9sbruce, False, Vinnie and VoiD. All these are very good top level players except for maybe K9sbruce, Mr. R and Void alone know almost every matchup and what to do in said matchup, but you hardly ever see a Sheik take first anymore, they always usually get taken out by a Diddy Kong, or Ally, Maybe even a Mewtwo sometimes. She isn't as safe as she used to be, and she can almsot always die before her opponent if she misses her oppertunity for ftilt-uair. Her neutral is good, just not her kill power.

 

[Guido65]

Her killing problems are huge and people need to see that. Also the only reason why she has no -1s (Mewtwo) Is due to her incredibly huge and diverse top player base. Mr. R, ANTi, K9sbruce, False, Vinnie and VoiD. All these are very good top level players except for maybe K9sbruce, Mr. R and Void alone know almost every matchup and what to do in said matchup, but you hardly ever see a Sheik take first anymore, they always usually get taken out by a Diddy Kong, or Ally, Maybe even a Mewtwo sometimes. She isn't as safe as she used to be, and she can almsot always die before her opponent if she misses her oppertunity for ftilt-uair. Her neutral is good, just not her kill power.

I never said her killpower was good if you think when I meant her amazing advantage state I mostly meant her combos,ledge trapping,and incredibly strong mixup game.

Is it really though?

Cuz nobody's ever given a detailed explanation afaik as to what actually makes this character (potentially) so good. All I've ever heard is "but the range tho" "but side B tho" "but combos tho" "but Cosmos tho", which are hardly what I'd call convincing arguments.

Nobody has yet to legitimately refute the idea that the character has issues in neutral (read: does not control it vs much of the cast), nor has anybody shot down the idea that maybe people in general just don't know how to play the MU properly.

What I meant by incredible theory is that corrin's theory is good but his results are very underwhelming for his theory + placement on tier lists. Plus ryuga and cosmos mu charts immensely overrated corrin.

 

[MERPIS]

I never said her killpower was good if you think when I meant her amazing advantage state I mostly meant her combos,ledge trapping,and incredibly strong mixup game.

It's still a big problem, and you need to see that she cannot kill reliably as some (most) other top tiers, she has no kill throw and no kill confirm from a throw on anyone but fastfallers, and her ftilt uair is very slim. And her combos, yes she can get you from 0-40%, but so can Mewtwo, Bayonetta, and a few others.

 

[adom4]

Bizzaro Flame is coming to Smash 4 . He's said he wants to focus on Smash 4 temporarily. He'll be at Civil War.

He's a bit of a Melee legend (used to be ranked 90-100 in Melee before going on break) so watch out, I guess, especially if he's focusing on the character. If there's potential for Ganondorf, he'd certainly be somebody to really show it.

A lot of great Ganondorf players don't travel too much unforunately.
GanonTheBeast (TheOne) is a contender for the best western Ganondorf but he doesn't compete out of his own region & Gungnir goes to tournaments once in a blue moon.

 

[Fenny]

Does any other character have 2 top players that would make an unstoppable force if they blended their tools together?
I know the players have been talking about it a bit. While sitting and studying games a bit more(while I should be practicing...) I've come unearthed another layer of how dichotomous VoiD and Mr. R's playstyles are.

Mr. R utilizes her broken defensive options to play a hyper aggressive game that gives the opponent no room to breathe. Constant dash>shields at proper tipper fair spacing so he can react to your dash grab attempts and still start combos or dash away to safety. Difficult to predict rolls on whiffed grabs. Abusing Sheik's myriad of lightning quick OoS options to start massive combos from any percent. Using shield at the ledge to cover all options but one. Can rarely punish any of his aerials because of how well-spaced they are.
There's a lot of very safe shield-based aggression that gives characters with bad data/poor grabs no room to breathe. If your character can't deal with dash>shield>fair OoS safely he usually destroys you as the pace spirals out of your control.

VoiD uses her incredible faux-offensive, passive pressure in neutral to whiff punish. Everything. Proper needle usage to always force you into that zone he wants you in WITHOUT making the mistake of shooting too often and forgoing stage control. Has excellent recovery and landing mixups so that he virtually never gets hit while offstage, much less gimped. The minute you do get hit he'll make you feel it for the next minute of the game.
Uses her unusually high walk speed to play a SF-esque ground game with jabs, ftilt and crouch.

Seeing how high this character can go while already having top ~3-4 results makes it impossible to think of any other as the best.

Yeah, already said before that a balance of Zack's aggression and Salem's neutral would give you a mega busted character.

Ally/Anti and Zenyou would make for a good combo too. The former two's fundamentals and clutch potential with Zenyou's ridiculous punish game.

 

[Yonder]

When Japan players have trouble with Luigi, there's probably quite a bit of MU inexperience. The closest thing Japan seems to have for good Luigi experience is Ron's secondary Luigi (this is part of the reason Japan seems to see Luigi as low mid tier). It's kind of become a trend that Japan players get caught off guard from Elegant. At least at first. Granted, I don't want to take too much away from Elegant. He did beat Ranai and Komo in sets (and took Komo to a game 5 situation on the first GF set) and placed second at the tournament. His Luigi is actually incredible and the fact that his Luigi can beat players of this caliber at all should still be noted imo.

I will say, however; it was very fortunate that Elegant has a lot of Villager experience from Aarvark and quite a lot of Cloud experience in general too.

He made it to 2nd using solo Luigi?

Hmm. Never thought I'd see the day post patch. Especially with a tournament with mains that are typically in Luigi's disadvantage (Villager, Cloud).

To reiterate Luigi Player's previous statement: Luigi is bad without jumpless cyclone. Those gimps by Luigi and percent saved from not being is critical. Probably why I retired competitive play....**** Sakurai , just patch back in Brawl mashing tornado rates and I'm a happy camper. Not every has button mashing of a god.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Her killing problems are huge and people need to see that. Also the only reason why she has no -1s (Mewtwo) Is due to her incredibly huge and diverse top player base. Mr. R, ANTi, K9sbruce, False, Vinnie and VoiD. All these are very good top level players except for maybe K9sbruce, Mr. R and Void alone know almost every matchup and what to do in said matchup, but you hardly ever see a Sheik take first anymore, they always usually get taken out by a Diddy Kong, or Ally, Maybe even a Mewtwo sometimes. She isn't as safe as she used to be, and she can almsot always die before her opponent if she misses her oppertunity for ftilt-uair. Her neutral is good, just not her kill power.

If by Diddy Kong, you mean ZeRo, then yes. And I don't really expect to see Sheik take first in the near future when ZeRo, Ally, and Leo exist, or hell, even Nairo. And she's really not super dependent on ftilt > uair, she has other confirms (dtilt > uair, Needles > Bouncing Fish, ftilt > fair > bouncing fish, nair > up smash, nair > bouncing fish, uthrow 50/50 on a good chunk of the cast, etc.) but it helps that her ftilt is ridiculously safe, and the current stage list greatly favors her, and as has been said many a time, you don't need raw kill power to be good at taking stocks when you can combo or create a 50/50 from a safe move into a kill move.

If you look at the top 4 of this tier list, the only character with good raw kill power is Cloud. Diddy Kong isn't going to kill you before 130% without a lot of rage or if you air dodge instead of jump after uthrow when it isn't a 50/50 anymore. Bayonetta is going to struggle to kill you at all if she can't land her death combos, witch time you, or edge guard you.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Bizzaro Flame is coming to Smash 4 . He's said he wants to focus on Smash 4 temporarily. He'll be at Civil War.

He's a bit of a Melee legend (used to be ranked 90-100 in Melee before going on break) so watch out, I guess, especially if he's focusing on the character. If there's potential for Ganondorf, he'd certainly be somebody to really show it.

I mean, Ganondorf's metagame is already in a state where there are players that could show the potential of Ganondorf, just that they're not doing much out of state, or much at all. We have yet to see the best Ganons go to a major tournament.
And i'm pretty confident Gungnir, who i'd say is the best Ganondorf out there, would be able to do some damage, considering that, in the few times we've seen him play, he has achieved a fair amount of consistent & strong wins against characters you'd expect Ganon to just lose to ( Taiheita getting 2-0d by Gungnir ).
The meta still has enough holes, enough mistakes done against characters where you clearly shouldn't overcommit, for Ganon to maybe shine a little bit. Not too much i'd say, but enough for Ganon to get out of Bottom Tier if this can happen.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The Mewtwo and Sheik discord users almost entirely agreed on the MU being 55:45 Sheik favour rather than M2 favour, actually. Abadango himself remarked that the matchup has become very difficult now that the Sheiks figured it out.
Besides, there's no way she'd "lose" to any character she has the throw 50/50 on at reasonable percents, lol.

 

[Nocally]

As a Pikachu main, his placement seems to be as I would have expected, but you could argue that he should be lower since he oftentimes doesn't seem as relevant a threat like some of the characters below him. How often do you need to play that match-up compared to other, more relevant characters? I do not believe Captain Falcon is better than Pikachu, but when relevancy/popularity and results shows otherwise, who am I to deny that maybe Captain Falcon needs to be above Pikachu?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

If by Diddy Kong, you mean ZeRo, then yes. And I don't really expect to see Sheik take first in the near future when ZeRo, Ally, and Leo exist, or hell, even Nairo. And she's really not super dependent on ftilt > uair, she has other confirms (dtilt > uair, Needles > Bouncing Fish, ftilt > fair > bouncing fish, nair > up smash, nair > bouncing fish, uthrow 50/50 on a good chunk of the cast, etc.) but it helps that her ftilt is ridiculously safe, and the current stage list greatly favors her, and as has been said many a time, you don't need raw kill power to be good at taking stocks when you can combo or create a 50/50 from a safe move into a kill move.

If you look at the top 4 of this tier list, the only character with good raw kill power is Cloud. Diddy Kong isn't going to kill you before 130% without a lot of rage or if you air dodge instead of jump after uthrow when it isn't a 50/50 anymore. Bayonetta is going to struggle to kill you at all if she can't land her death combos, witch time you, or edge guard you.

In the general history of Smash the best characters who were able to control and dominate the neutral play on a consistent are much more successful characters that rely on explosive/volitaile jank or high kill power. That is why Diddy and Sheik have been consistently been top tier for most of Smash 4's and Ryu ,despite his hype and apparent potential fell short of expectations. This is still generally true in Smash 4 even with the introduction of the rage mechanic

Then again there has always been exceptions to the rule, and characters reach top tier status even without a dominating neutral game if their jank factors are especially crazy. Such as pre-patch ZSS and MK and current meta Bayo.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

The fact that luigi is still below ness and bowser is mind boggling. The character's results have been the best theyve been since pre-patch. He has excellent representation in Elegant, Concon, Luigi Player, J miller, Poke, etc. Should be high tier in the same realm as Falcon. Speaking of falcon, I think he should move up slightly as well. Fatality's results shouldnt be slept on.

 

[Poisonous]

Charizard's placement is a lot more fair this time around, but I still feel like he's better than where he's at right now.
Honestly he and Wario should trade places, Wario's gameplan is based on a single bull**** option while Charizard is a much more balanced character overall with tools for a lot more situations. Wario is also one of the few characters that I can say Charizard has more representation from

I'll entertain this, what top rep does Charizard have and how do they compare to Reflex/Glutonny? The only notable Charizards only have him as a secondary or tertiary character as far as I know (Serge/Anti). I would say with 100% certainty that Wario has better high level rep than Charizard as well. I'm also curious at what you mean by tools to deal with more situations. Charizard has a better neutral for sure, but what of his other aspects?

Is it his disadvantage state? Because whilst Wario doesn't have a free landing option like ZSS downB, he has a much easier time than Charizard. Charizard has some moves that are invincible, but they're high commitment moves that are very punishable if whiffed.
Is it ledge trapping? Because I prefer having bike traps that can lead into 50/50s for a free kill. Flamethrower is amazing of course, but being able to kill Fox for side-Bing to ledge isn't special to Zard. DA 2 frames the side B and leads into a free kill for Wario too.
Is it juggling? Because Wario uair beats out 99% of the moves in the game, it even beats out the clean hit of Cloud's dair.
Dealing with shields? Because Wario has a command grab.

Being 'more balanced' isn't going to help you out in this game, you need bull**** options to compete. I don't really care where Wario or anyone under the top 20 is placed because it really doesn't matter in the long run. Who actually cares that Charizard is 45th instead of 37th lol. He isn't going to do anything relevant, and no taking a game off a top player isn't relevant. There's no way you guys actually think Charizard goes even with Cloud or Fox based on such little evidence. Serge is a better player than Nakat (Nakat is a great player in his own right, but Serge is definitely better). It's like taking the time Reflex beat Wrath at TBH6 and saying Wario goes even with Sonic. Instead of comparing the two to each other because as I hope I've shown, it's pointless as they do different things, look at the results of the characters.

 

[MERPIS]

If by Diddy Kong, you mean ZeRo, then yes. And I don't really expect to see Sheik take first in the near future when ZeRo, Ally, and Leo exist, or hell, even Nairo. And she's really not super dependent on ftilt > uair, she has other confirms (dtilt > uair, Needles > Bouncing Fish, ftilt > fair > bouncing fish, nair > up smash, nair > bouncing fish, uthrow 50/50 on a good chunk of the cast, etc.) but it helps that her ftilt is ridiculously safe, and the current stage list greatly favors her, and as has been said many a time, you don't need raw kill power to be good at taking stocks when you can combo or create a 50/50 from a safe move into a kill move.

If you look at the top 4 of this tier list, the only character with good raw kill power is Cloud. Diddy Kong isn't going to kill you before 130% without a lot of rage or if you air dodge instead of jump after uthrow when it isn't a 50/50 anymore. Bayonetta is going to struggle to kill you at all if she can't land her death combos, witch time you, or edge guard you.

(Maybe mewtwo belongs in S tier then...)
I can see where you're coming from here, its just that, a lot of these kill combos are almost based on stage rather than the character. If the stage is th only thing thats is helping her kill, then she shouldn't be first still. As those stages won't always be picked.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Stage has little to do with her kill potential. All each stage(minus FD) does is give 20-90% one touch death confirms.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bizzaro Flame is coming to Smash 4 .

Is he aware what he's getting himself into?

 

[T4ylor]

Poisonous There is Tosshi for Charizard. I don't know much about his tournament history, but he does have offline set wins on Ranai and Nietono and online wins against Ron, Kie, and Ri-ma.

Don't think your opinion is off anyhow

 

[L9999]

Have you ever seen competitive smash 64? This god-like player Isai could win with low tier and any character really. I see what you're saying but sometimes an incredible player really does carry a character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxmW1KkMDj8

Ranai and early in the meta might be another example.


But like I said, is good enough to be high tier without Elegant carrying him.

Isai was miles ahead of everyone in his prime, now he has to rely in Fox because everyone leveled up. In the case of Ranai, Cloud and Bayonetta didn't exist, and Ranai was the only Villager player to exploit Villagers good traits in an offensive manner. Kept and Aarvark rose much later.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Where did the consensus that Villager does bad vs Bayo come from. It seems in theory at leasr that Villager has a lot good tools to deal with her. Good zoning capabilities, a decent combo breaker in neutral-air and is small and floaty enough to escape certain Bayo combo chains.

Is it because of Villagers less than stellar grab game or that he/she gets easily edge guarded by Bayo?

I thought the my was fairly even or just slightly in Bayo's favor.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

(Maybe mewtwo belongs in S tier then...)
I can see where you're coming from here, its just that, a lot of these kill combos are almost based on stage rather than the character. If the stage is th only thing thats is helping her kill, then she shouldn't be first still. As those stages won't always be picked.

Mewtwo gets blown apart by Diddy Kong, as was said before Sheik is shifting out of his favor, and I see Cloud shifting out of Mewtwo's favor as well. None of the top 4 characters get blown apart by each other. Cloud may lose to Bayo and Sheik but he really doesn't get blown apart by them.

She's not dependent on stage positioning and even if she were the the current stage list would (and does) greatly benefit her. Smashville, FD, and Town and City? That's incredibly good for Sheik. Anyone who doesn't like Sheik is very lucky that Lylat was brought back.
Plus all of Sheik's combos for damage send the opponent to the edges of the stage so if she was reliant on getting her opponent to the side of the stage it really wouldn't be that hard.

 

[MERPIS]

Mewtwo gets blown apart by Diddy Kong, as was said before Sheik is shifting out of his favor, and I see Cloud shifting out of Mewtwo's favor as well. None of the top 4 characters get blown apart by each other. Cloud may lose to Bayo and Sheik but he really doesn't get blown apart by them.

She's not dependent on stage positioning and even if she were the the current stage list would (and does) greatly benefit her. Smashville, FD, and Town and City? That's incredibly good for Sheik. Anyone who doesn't like Sheik is very lucky that Lylat was brought back.
Plus all of Sheik's combos for damage send the opponent to the edges of the stage so if she was reliant on getting her opponent to the side of the stage it really wouldn't be that hard.

Mewtwo does not, its only -1, and he goes even with Cloud.
Those stages are only really beneficial due to that moving platform, or moving platforms. FD benefits her due to there being NO platforms, thus no early death from certain characters. Also, her combos pushing characters to the edges isn't really good on anyone in top tier except Cloud and Fox, and Diddy.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mewtwo does not, its only -1, and he goes even with Cloud.
Those stages are only really beneficial due to that moving platform, or moving platforms. FD benefits her due to there being NO platforms, thus no early death from certain characters. Also, her combos pushing characters to the edges isn't really good on anyone in top tier except Cloud and Fox, and Diddy.

"stage control is only good against 3 top tiers"
come on, guy.

bf/lylat/dreamland all have their own specific jank to them. needles confirm into techchase tipper usmash on all 3 around ~90-110 depending on character weight. T&C and SV's weird sides let you get dumb stuff that don't even need the SV platforms. Triple bair to death, ftilt pivot weak bair to dair on characters with no walljump or mediocre recoveries, tipper dtilt>ftilt>rising fair>bf(which is a true death combo off the ledge around 65-75), etc.
DL lets you do guaranteed dragdown uair>regrab/ftilt shenanigans to close out stocks in the 70s.
sheik's killing is fine. the issue comes up when one focuses too much on winning neutral and not closing out the stock when you hit the setup windows. only when the opponent passes ~140 can she really not kill for ****, and around those %s most Sheiks opt to needlecamp you and condition for trump bairs, ftilts, or nairs on your standard getup

this is a post i made exactly half a year ago so people would stop saying the exact things you are now:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...tive-impressions.440784/page-88#post-21484616

edit: @DunnoBro i see you lurking. you have some of the best posts on here, come back

 

[Fatmanonice]

A lot of characters have fallen simply because of stagnation. Have characters like really changed that much from Day One? I feel like when it comes to their gameplay, most people know what to except but the playstyles of characters like can vary wildly which is just part of the reason why they're so good. This is also why characters like suck because, let's face it, you practically have to play a certain way with them or you'll get stuffed against most of the cast.

Like I said in announcement thread, has basically turned into Brawl Dedede: a character that was such a colossal pain that it almost became a community mission to knock them down a peg. Back then it was chain grabs, now it's Luma, but people have become better at managing something that was once considered borderline broken. is comparable to Brawl Game and Watch: a character with enormous strengths but with ridiculous weaknesses that became bigger and bigger liabilities as people learned the matchup. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Ness kept falling or even if Lucas and Ness eventually became only 1 or 2 placements between each other.

One placement that I find interesting is because, as a Villager main, I've followed his path since day one. He's a reliable character with a couple of bad matchups and that's basically been his story throughout the meta game. About a year ago, I would have said that were his biggest gatekeepers but now it's definitively thanks to basically having swords for limbs and a fast, low risk reflector. are still hard but they seem to be getting more manageable. Part of the problem is the slow growth of the character and any major developments rely almost solely on Ranai and you can't really have a character get better if you're waiting on discoveries from one person. He plugs along, gets better, but that means improvement comes in increments. I still hold fast that the character has more potential but not enough people are playing him anymore to really show it.

 

[MERPIS]

"stage control is only good against 3 top tiers"
come on, guy.

bf/lylat/dreamland all have their own specific jank to them. needles confirm into techchase tipper usmash on all 3 around ~90-110 depending on character weight. T&C and SV's weird sides let you get dumb stuff that don't even need the SV platforms. Triple bair to death, ftilt pivot weak bair to dair on characters with no walljump or mediocre recoveries, tipper dtilt>ftilt>rising fair>bf(which is a true death combo off the ledge around 65-75), etc.
DL lets you do guaranteed dragdown uair>regrab/ftilt shenanigans to close out stocks in the 70s.
sheik's killing is fine. the issue only comes up when one focuses too much on winning neutral and not closing out the stock when you hit the setup windows. only when the opponent passes ~140 can she really not kill for ****, and around those %s most Sheiks opt to needlecamp you and condition for trump bairs, ftilts, or nairs on your standard getup

this is a post i made exactly half a year ago so people would stop saying the exact things you are now:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...tive-impressions.440784/page-88#post-21484616

edit: @DunnoBro i see you lurking. you have some of the best posts on here, come back

I'm still not believing her killing is good, this isn't pre patch sheik any more

 

[FeelMeUp]

funny that you say that
people regularly lived until 150 against prepatch sheik as well
seems like you don't really understand the dynamic behind characters with both good neutrals and oppressive ledgetrapping games
look atfor longer than 5 minutes and you'll see that theyre all bad at closing out stocks. for now, at least. as the meta develops more that will change.

has basically turned into Brawl Dedede: a character that was such a colossal pain that it almost became a community mission to knock them down a peg. Back then it was chain grabs, now it's Luma, but people have become better at managing something that was once considered borderline broken.

this is exactly what i was trying to tell dabuz back when he came in here and got pissed that i said a lot of his wins pre-late 2016 came from people not knowing the matchup
i can play against the best rosalina in the world every single day of my life for the next 2 years and not know the matchup. until i successfully abuse her weaknesses and do the things that make each interaction difficult and more "honest", she's coasting by off of my inexperience.
that goes for every other character in the game as well.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Yeah yeah sheik is ssss tier and her ko setups are safer and ko earlier than MK's fsmash and she is +3 against every character as long as you know the matchup, we get it already feelmeup

 

[ARISTOS]

this is exactly what i was trying to tell dabuz back when he came in here and got pissed that i said a lot of his wins pre-late 2016 came from people not knowing the matchup
i can play against the best rosalina in the world every single day of my life for the next 2 years and not know the matchup. until i successfully abuse her weaknesses and do the things that make each interaction difficult and more "honest", she's coasting by off of my inexperience.

Saying "not knowing the MU" gives off the impression that his opponents were caught unawares and were blindsided rather than people not having fully learnt and being able to execute anti-Rosalina techniques. It's a slight difference in structure that makes a world of difference: the first gives off the impression that Dabuz's didn't fully earn his win and mainly just preyed off the ignorance of his opponents, while the second says that his wins were legitimate but that people were still learning and improving in Smash 4.

I think most people would agree that people have gotten much stronger over the past 2 years at executing their anti-Luma strats.

Yeah yeah sheik is ssss tier and her ko setups are safer and ko earlier than MK's fsmash and she is +3 against every character as long as you know the matchup, we get it already feelmeup

Chill

 

[FamilyTeam]

No need to resort to this: Maybe it's just that Feelmeup might know what he's talking about.
But sadly, it seems character specialists like him and I are sometimes looked like blind optimists that don't know better about the game if some comments from these threads are to go by.
I guess I should start commenting about characters I don't even play as if I knew them better than their own mains as well.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

FD benefits her due to there being NO platforms, thus no early death from certain characters.

And there's no where to go when you need to escape from her. If Sheik decides to needle camp you on FD then you are getting needle camped. On other stages you can retreat to the platforms when you need to try and get away from needle camping or sheik in neutral, you cannot do that on FD. You get forced to the edge and you get ledge trapped until you die. It's Sheik's best stage.

 

[MERPIS]

And there's no where to go when you need to escape from her. If Sheik decides to needle camp you on FD then you are getting needle camped. On other stages you can retreat to the platforms when you need to try and get away from needle camping or sheik in neutral, you cannot do that on FD. You get forced to the edge and you get ledge trapped until you die. It's Sheik's best stage.

You're seriously overestimating Sheik. She is not god anymore, She has a lot of problems killing, if you, my friend, can convince me otherwise, you are a better negotiator than most of the world's smartest minds.

Yeah yeah sheik is ssss tier and her ko setups are safer and ko earlier than MK's fsmash and she is +3 against every character as long as you know the matchup, we get it already feelmeup

Accurate summary of smashboards users' opinion's on sheik.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Corrins placement is such a joke I don't know what to say. You should publicly apologize for screwing up and then redo the list.

 

[FamilyTeam]

You're seriously overestimating Sheik. She is not god anymore, She has a lot of problems killing, if you, my friend, can convince me otherwise, you are a better negotiator than most of the world's smartest minds.

I don't think we're exactly overestimating Sheik - we're just pointing out what she's always done. She starts strings of low powered moves and tries to chain them as many as she cans to reap the benefits off of every win on Neutral she gets.
I don't think anyone is saying here her Kill Power is exactly Bowser Tier, we're just saying that Final Destination really compliments the kind of gameplan Sheiks aim for, and could even potentially help her win more if she can drag people to ledges and edgeguard them more easily than in other places.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

You're seriously overestimating Sheik. She is not god anymore, She has a lot of problems killing, if you, my friend, can convince me otherwise, you are a better negotiator than most of the world's smartest minds.

Have you ever played against a good Sheik or watched VoiD in your life? You're seriously underrating what Sheik's good at, neutral and ledge trapping, especially on FD where she has nothing to limit her. You don't have to be god to be a good character.

 

[MERPIS]

I don't think we're exactly overestimating Sheik - we're just pointing out what she's always done. She starts strings of low powered moves and tries to chain them as many as she cans to reap the benefits off of every win on Neutral she gets.
I don't think anyone is saying here her Kill Power is exactly Bowser Tier, we're just saying that Final Destination really compliments the kind of gameplan Sheiks aim for, and could even potentially help her win more if she can drag people to ledges and edgeguard them more easily than in other places.

Always done, and doesn't do any more. It's not the kill power or anything here thats triggering me, anyway. It's the fact that some people still think she loses to no one, and is 1st again.

Have you ever played against a good Sheik or watched VoiD in your life? You're seriously underrating what Sheik's good at, neutral and ledge trapping, especially on FD where she has nothing to limit her. You don't have to be god to be a good character.

Then its not Sheik. It's Mr. R, ain't it?
YES, IT IS

 

[FamilyTeam]

Always done, and doesn't do any more.

Huh? By "always done", I meant the strings. She still has a lot of strings, and FD is where she can get a lot of them due to there being nowhere you can land reliably other than on stage or at the ledge, the former giving her opportunity to punish your landing almost guaranteed and the latter creating a ledge situation, which, if I were you, I wouldn't wanna be in against a good Sheik.
It's not as explosive as being on the ledge versus a Lucina, then you get baited into regular get up and 2 framed @ 60% and die, but the results are almost just as bad for you.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Corrins placement is such a joke I don't know what to say.

Right, this has been stated so many times so I think it's clear that this is what the majority (or a vocal minority) of the Smashboards think. Let's stop talking about it until we see some results or a lack of results from Corrins? Either some Corrin main (such as Cosmos or Ryuga) will step up and prove that Corrin does, indeed, deserve top be top 13, or Corrin will end up lower on the next list (probably).

I personally think it's a tad too high as well, but we'll see. Maybe she really deserves to be up there? Or maybe she's overhyped. Time will tell, I suppose.

 

[MERPIS]

Huh? By "always done", I meant the strings. She still has a lot of strings, and FD is where she can get a lot of them due to there being nowhere you can land reliably other than on stage or at the ledge, the former giving her opportunity to punish your landing almost guaranteed and the latter creating a ledge situation, which, if I were you, I wouldn't wanna be in against a good Sheik.
It's not as explosive as being on the ledge versus a Lucina, then you get baited into regular get up and 2 framed @ 60% and die, but the results are almost just as bad for you.

Huh...She does have the strings....But still, she can't as much off them as she once could.