Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[FamilyTeam]

She doesn't indeed, she doesn't have bonkers 50-50s into death anymore. Everyone knows she's been nerfed. But that really doesn't mean she still isn't excellent, because she is, even with some difficulties killing.

 

[MERPIS]

She doesn't indeed, she doesn't have bonkers 50-50s into death anymore. Everyone knows she's been nerfed. But that really doesn't mean she still isn't excellent, because she is, even with some difficulties killing.

Exactly, she is still good, but not 1st, she does lose MU's, too.

 

[L9999]

Exactly, she is still good, but not 1st, she does lose MU's, too.

Since you are so insistent what are Sheik's bad MUs in your opinion?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Right, this has been stated so many times so I think it's clear that this is what the majority (or a vocal minority) of the Smashboards think. Let's stop talking about it until we see some results or a lack of results from Corrins? Either some Corrin main (such as Cosmos or Ryuga) will step up and prove that Corrin does, indeed, deserve top be top 13, or Corrin will end up lower on the next list (probably).

I personally think it's a tad too high as well, but we'll see. Maybe she really deserves to be up there? Or maybe she's overhyped. Time will tell, I suppose.

Problem is nobody stepped up for Corrin really and he moved up.

Why on earth would we have faith that he's going to move down next tier list, when the criteria for him moving down even one or two spots was already reached and then the opposite happened?

Like others have said: zero logic being applied here. Should not have been allowed to happen. People should have been forced to explain why a character's who's results are going slightly down should get to move up multiple spots. Particularly with one character (Marth) leapfrogging over them, meaning they moved up more spots then people realize at first glance.

An explanation post of "we feel his potential is very high" is not going to cut it. The explanation post needs to say "we screwed up with him, he should not be that high. Quirk of how the vote values were applied and much larger variance for those around him along with people putting too much weight on potential. Our bad."

 

[MERPIS]

Since you are so insistent what are Sheik's bad MUs in your opinion?

Mewtwo, Mario, Ryu, and Diddy. Maybe not diddy, that one seems even. Or ZeRo.

 

[tecmo]

Exactly, she is still good, but not 1st, she does lose MU's, too.

Rather than just say doesn't loose any MUs because of one flaw in the character, why don't you provide examples of match ups you think sheik looses. You can say sheik has loosing match ups until your blue in the face, but until you back that up with examples and evidence most people will write that thought off as theorycrafting.
Edit I just saw your post. Idk much about Mario or Mewtwo vs shiek so I won't comment on that. I will say Diddy looses to shiek, needles are incredibly strong here as Diddy drops his banana when hit with them. He gets murdered off stage too

 

[reobebo]

I think this question is answered, but why is the tier list delay about 2 months?

 

[Guido65]

Man this sheik s***storm really gotten out of hand considering what started this was him responding to a post of mine claiming she's the best character. I don't really see what's so controversial about that claim for it to cause such a derail in the thread. I feel terrible for this happening as I wouldn't expect that post to lead into this.

Anyways to try and change the subject I was gonna bring up . His placement is a bit too low on the tier list(I think he should switch withto be 100% honest as doc has similar niche mus(doing relatively well vs fox and fast fallers) but doc has a kill confirm off grab. There are plenty of other reasons why I think he should be higher then kirby.

• Doctor mario has about as good a damage output as kirby does but he also has a noticeably easier time killing due to a kill confirm off grab and a very good usmash.
• MUCH better at dealing with trades.
• Access to the second best out of shield move in the game with his super jump punch.
• Doc's SHFF bair is another reason why I consider him to be better then kirby overall just because it's sheer versatility. This move is absolutely insane and can set up many traps into upsmash and can do a bunch of other things like frame trap,kill,poke,and even space in neutral due to the very low commitment of the move it also has longer duration then marios(clean hit is out for 6-8 late hit is out for 9-13 which is longer then marios 6-7 clean hit and 8-10 late hit).

While doctor mario isnt amazing he is still ranked too low on the current tier list and should be at least above kirby imo.

 

[BSP]

Saying "not knowing the MU" gives off the impression that his opponents were caught unawares and were blindsided rather than people not having fully learnt and being able to execute anti-Rosalina techniques. It's a slight difference in structure that makes a world of difference: the first gives off the impression that Dabuz's didn't fully earn his win and mainly just preyed off the ignorance of his opponents, while the second says that his wins were legitimate but that people were still learning and improving in Smash 4.

This is delving into semantics, but I see the two phrases you mentioned as the same thing. If you haven't learned and know how to execute anti-X character strategies, then you are definitely unaware, and possibly blindsided. Pac-Man is a great example.

Whenever I see anyone with a F6 grab not grab his dash attack on shield, I quickly assume they're unaware of that aspect of the MU. And then why I run into people that don't know trampoline is unblockable, lol.

Now I probably wouldn't say to someone "you only won because they didn't know the MU", but I have no qualms with people saying "Y didn't play the MU correctly" if they can back it up.

 

[NairWizard]

While Ganon might not be capable of winning a major, he is most certainly capable of ending your bracket run. Bottom tier, he is not.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Problem is nobody stepped up for Corrin really and he moved up.

It's done, I highly doubt they're going to change the list now when it's already released. There's also very little reason to keep discussing Corrin at this point. Once Corrin starts getting some more results we could have a more in-depth discussion about her placement on the list, I suppose. Alternatively, if she doesn't get results you (and other people) can make a pretty solid case for moving her down a bit. I don't think now is the time to do so though. So many people (me included) have stated that Corrin got placed too high, and I think it's pretty clear that the majority/vocal minority think so.

You know what's extra interesting? A bunch of people likely put Corrin around #11-12 or so. I wonder if they're seeing something that the majority of Smashboards users aren't seeing?

Anyway, Corrin was placed really high, perhaps too high. Time will likely tell if she needs to move down or if her placement were actually accurate.

 

[Das Koopa]

after ranai's recent string of losses I think I'm going to be doing some stats on Villager's MUs

I feel like the character is slightly overrated

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's done, I highly doubt they're going to change the list now when it's already released. There's also very little reason to keep discussing Corrin at this point. Once Corrin starts getting some more results we could have a more in-depth discussion about her placement on the list, I suppose. Alternatively, if she doesn't get results you (and other people) can make a pretty solid case for moving her down a bit. I don't think now is the time to do so though. So many people (me included) have stated that Corrin got placed too high, and I think it's pretty clear that the majority/vocal minority think so.

You know what's extra interesting? A bunch of people likely put Corrin around #11-12 or so. I wonder if they're seeing something that the majority of Smashboards users aren't seeing?

Anyway, Corrin was placed really high, perhaps too high. Time will likely tell if she needs to move down or if her placement were actually accurate.

What is the cut off for results?

All during the last tier list when I was arguing Corrin wasn't proving himself, that was the constant reply "give it more time" and "with a MU chart like that its only a manner of time before they get results"

One whole tier list cycle later, hasn't happened. Can't just keep arbitrarily making the "give it more time" request. There needs to be a set time where if nothing changes, it is agreed upon that Corrin failed to live up to their hype and needs to move down until proven otherwise, rather than this mindset of "good potential until proven otherwise".

This isn't a theological or hypothetical question, its a real one. What is the cut off? What is the exact day where, if Corrin hasn't pulled up as a whole (as in more than a blip on the radar where they do well in one tournament, but consistent results), they are considered overrated and not deserving of high tier? That the theoretical MU chart clearly isn't accurate because they've gone too long without those kinds of results for it to be accurate?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Corrin is the new Ryu who was the new Luigi who was the new Toon Link who was the new Pikachu who was the new Roy who was the new Palutena who was the new Yoshi who was the new Duck Hunt who was the new Bowser. Behold, a brief history of the characters that have been grossly overrated by the pros only to produce significantly less impressive results since this game debuted! Give it four months max before the hard-core backpedaling starts.

 

[Das Koopa]

toon link isn't really fair to throw in when his best player was banned from competing

 

[Frihetsanka]

One whole tier list cycle later, hasn't happened. Can't just keep arbitrarily making the "give it more time" request. There needs to be a set time where if nothing changes, it is agreed upon that Corrin failed to live up to their hype and needs to move down until proven otherwise, rather than this mindset of "good potential until proven otherwise".

Now, you see, Corrin should not have moved up at this point in time. Perhaps Corrin could be top 13, but so could Olimar and Lucario, yet neither of them are nearly as high as she is. So I'm agreeing with you there, Corrin should not have been placed in top 13 in the closest to an official tier list that we have.

Still, that's what happened. Not much point in dwelling on it right now. If Corrin still hasn't gotten more results by, say, the end of the summer, then we should discuss her again. Until I think most of us here agree that #13 was a bit too high right now (though maybe Corrin will get some breakout performance that makes people change their minds).

Personally I think Corrin is somewhere around #18-22.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Granted but he falls into the previously overrated Smash character archetype:

-Has breakout player that does incredibly good with them but player starts to slip over time.
-Is gushed about how great they are or how much potential they have by at least one top player (one being Zero 90% of the time)
-Has one or two notable upsets against a top ranked player and that's about it.
-Position is retracted after months of tournaments produce underwhelming results.

 

[Nobie]

Corrin might not be setting the world on fire, but I think people are underestimating Dragon Lunge's power in theory.

It comes out frame 8 (faster than a Mario up smash), kills ridiculously early when tippered, and is difficult to punish because of the multiple follow up options built in. It makes retreating especially scary, as you risk putting yourself right in tipper range. It lets Cotton safely pressure the ledge too.

I'm over simplifying, but I think of it sorta like Mario's head on a pole. We should all be glad that character isn't more mobile.

 

[Fatmanonice]

One move doesn't make a character though. As someone else said, Corrin is an average character with average stats but two stupidly good moves. Even before Corrin was patched, nobody even gave consideration to this character breaking top ten so I don't see what all has exactly changed with a metagame to suddenly have people insist on "hidden potential."

 

[Peppermint1201]

I'm over simplifying, but I think of it sorta like Mario's head on a pole. We should all be glad that character isn't more mobile.

I agree, and I think this is the inevitable problem with Corrin. Mobility is pretty much the defining factor of a top/high tier in Smash, and Corrin is a bit lacking in that department. Despite having a sword, he still feels very "stubby" to play because he can't combine his range with strong ground or air speed.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

While Ganon might not be capable of winning a major, he is most certainly capable of ending your bracket run. Bottom tier, he is not.

The more I play against good Ganondorfs both locally and online the more I'm starting to believe this myself. Call it recency bias but I'm finding Ganon has a lot more open to him than I previously believed if you know how to work with his tools. His frame data isn't as sluggish as you'd think and he can act out of a lot of his moves like upsmash relatively quickly. I was finding my minor spacing and timing errors getting me punished and when Ganon hits you it hurts. Granted once a he's off stage he's dead but he has a few options to keep him grounded. I be as bold as to put him just outside the last tier letter.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Well, IP fixes some of the bigger issues associated with low mobility. Often, character with low running speed struggle to continuously and tech chase and juggle most characters, but that really isn't the case with Corrin since the IP kicks travel fast and cover a lot of space. Getting hit by them also means that Corrin can pull off ridiculous combos's / strings, making them particularly dangerous when compared to traditional tech chasing / juggle options. Some other issues associated with Low mobility such as projectile camping are resolved by corrin's innate traits. He has one of the best Dash ----> shields in the game and his great range and frame data help alleviate his poor speed. Personally, I feel that the more notable issues he suffers with stem from the lag that moves like D-Tilt and F-Smash have and his poor jumpsquat rather than his low mobility.

 

[|RK|]

Man this sheik s***storm really gotten out of hand considering what started this was him responding to a post of mine claiming she's the best character. I don't really see what's so controversial about that claim for it to cause such a derail in the thread. I feel terrible for this happening as I wouldn't expect that post to lead into this.

Anyways to try and change the subject I was gonna bring up . His placement is a bit too low on the tier list(I think he should switch withto be 100% honest as doc has similar niche mus(doing relatively well vs fox and fast fallers) but doc has a kill confirm off grab. There are plenty of other reasons why I think he should be higher then kirby.

• Doctor mario has about as good a damage output as kirby does but he also has a noticeably easier time killing due to a kill confirm off grab and a very good usmash.
• MUCH better at dealing with trades.
• Access to the second best out of shield move in the game with his super jump punch.
• Doc's SHFF bair is another reason why I consider him to be better then kirby overall just because it's sheer versatility. This move is absolutely insane and can set up many traps into upsmash and can do a bunch of other things like frame trap,kill,poke,and even space in neutral due to the very low commitment of the move it also has longer duration then marios(clean hit is out for 6-8 late hit is out for 9-13 which is longer then marios 6-7 clean hit and 8-10 late hit).

While doctor mario isnt amazing he is still ranked too low on the current tier list and should be at least above kirby imo.

You're basically just listing Doc's strengths and assuming that's enough. Kirby has better top tier MUs, stronger combos, an easier time landing, better ground mobility, a vertical kill throw, and versatility in MUs offered by his ability to copy his opponents. He also has better ledge trapping and edgeguarding.

Oh, and superior defensive capabilities thanks to being really, really small. Add that with being floaty and he SDIs many things for free.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The more I play against good Ganondorfs both locally and online the more I'm starting to believe this myself. Call it recency bias but I'm finding Ganon has a lot more open to him than I previously believed if you know how to work with his tools. His frame data isn't as sluggish as you'd think and he can act out of a lot of his moves like upsmash relatively quickly. I was finding my minor spacing and timing errors getting me punished and when Ganon hits you it hurts. Granted once a he's off stage he's dead but he has a few options to keep him grounded. I be as bold as to put him just outside the last tier letter.

OK while he isn't bottom tier I agree, above the Bottom 5 at least , and bracket run with him is over as soon as he goes against any Bayo player worth their salt. That MU is in the top 3 for most depressingly one-sided matchups in the current meta of Smash 4.

Grant it isn't vs MK in Brawl level of utter futility but it's still BAD

 

[Eden Rocks]

Coming from someone who freaked out about Mii mains. Aight. Done posting for now. Back to hibernation on swf.

Hello. I am brand new to posting this site. I am an old man who has taken a recent interest in this community, after having been a lurker for years. I will be commentating my first tournament this weekend. I expect to be among the best commentators in the entire world soon after I begin, and I also expect to be a tremendously influential and positive personality in this community, as it appears to be dominated by immature people, in general.

I am rolling in, and posting what I feel like saying. Forgive me if it somehow violates one of the parameters for posting in this thread. Whenever I post anything, you can be assured that it has been well-thought-out, and is relevant and substantial.

I notced that someone took a shot at Seagull Joe, who responded in like manner, and that the spectators involved interpreted the exchange incorrectly (in my professional estimation).

Joe was entirely justified in his response (which was also entertaining). The other person called him "mediocre" (without clarifying their comparitve basis in the least) out-of-the-blue, which is a clear-cut insult/flame, and was equally clearly used to generate attention for themselves. It was a cheap shot. Joe responded, and then was criticized/lightly trolled by a few people, which is unjustified. The other poster then presented what feebly attempted to resemble "an apology", when, in reality, they just reinforced their cheap shot with bogus reasoning, without being apologetic in the least. Joe fired back, again, still being entirely within his rights to do so, and still was criticized. One person had his back, but didn't justify why, and just left a quick comment.

Joe is a great player, and a unique and notable personality in this community. I am a fan of his (commentary notwithstanding - sorry bro, but hey, everything is not for everybody). Though none of this is a big deal, clearly, you were wronged, and everything you said is alright by me, and was totally justified.

I hope this post was entertaining to read, and that it is appropriate to this thread. I will be promoting my commentating on the regular, across various social media platforms, in the hopes of getting an opportunity to perform on the biggest stages, and share my love for this great game.

Eden Rocks

 

[Laken64]

One move doesn't make a character though. As someone else said, Corrin is an average character with average stats but two stupidly good moves. Even before Corrin was patched, nobody even gave consideration to this character breaking top ten so I don't see what all has exactly changed with a metagame to suddenly have people insist on "hidden potential."

Tbh no one cared about corrin in the beginning because of a certain witch and her 0 to death combos...
Also I feel like everyone only sees Corrin's IP as if its the only move he has, no one pays attention to his other great strength that is in juggling and combos his MAIN goal in any MU.

Yes pin serves multiple purposes in racking up damage, punishing, two framing, edgeguarding and killing and theres one more purpose it has: Scaring people into shield. EVERYONE and their mother is so afraid of pin that it just leads to free grabs for Corrin, and while they don't lead into combos or high damage (highest one being dthrow at 9% I believe) they give corrin stage position, which is what he thrives on. And lets not forget that Corrin has a kill throw at higher percents so you're pinned (lol) between two choices of not shield and get kicked to the blast zone or shield get grabbed then head butted to the blast zone by Arceus. Also pin isn't as free as it looks, you can kick away and half of the roster can't punish you yes, but you give up valuable stage control and if you use pin to much as a attack it gets stale real quick.

What many people fail to notice about Corrin is his great aerial game, nair is like a sex kick version of clouds nair and is great oos, stoping approaches and starting combos and one of the main reasons sonic is a even mu for him. Fair is his main combo aerial that strings into more fairs, up air as a legit kill option or at certain %s DFS into bite for a early kill. up air is still ridiculous even after the small nerf and still kills reliably around 100-120% is its a bit dumb with rage. bair is very safe on shield, helps in recovering and does 13% and can kill reliably offstage.

-Has breakout player that does incredibly good with them but player starts to slip over time.

Cosmos fits the breakout part, but he hasn't really slipped in results because even though he can't travel he has dominated online tournies (the PG key to major events and yes ik wifi different meta and stuff) and Ryuga has been constantly getting 17th at majors

-Is gushed about how great they are or how much potential they have by at least one top player (one being Zero 90% of the time)

can't argue with that, most top players put corrin even higher for some reason, like top 10. That is WAY too high. I believe Corrin is high tier but 13th is a bit to high imo i'd say mid high or mid low high at the least.

-Has one or two notable upsets against a top ranked player and that's about it.

Corrin has wins over Ally, Zinoto, ESAM, Hyuga, Samsora, Aarvark, Ned, DarkShad, Rayquaza, Nakat, Shuton 7 which are in the PGR beaten by Cosmos and Ryuga.

-Position is retracted after months of tournaments produce underwhelming results
Ryuga has been constantly getting 17th at majors like KTAR XIX, 2GGC Midwest Mayhem saga, and most currently frostbite with a peak of 13th at UGC so I don't understand why people say he has no results when he constantly gets in top 32 in majors. So hes doing WAY better than back at release and at the 2nd tier list


For those who are asking yes I think Corrin is too high at the moment but hes no mid tier IMO and there is much more to than spamming DL/IP because it only can get you so far until someone constantly shields it and takes free stage control thanks to the mindless thought of "Oh I kicked back they can't punish me so lets do it again!"

 

[Nobie]

I think Corrin's been overshadowed by both Bayonetta and Cloud, though more specifically I think the swordsmen in general have a tendency to overshadow each other in the eyes of players.

"Why use Ike, when you can use Corrin?" (see Ike mains who switched to Corrin)

"Why use Corrin, the slow-paced but wide-arcing sword user with out-of-nowhere kill moves, when you can use Cloud, the FAST wide-arcing sword user with out-of-nowhere kill moves?"

[Before buffs] "Why use Marth, when you can use Roy?"
[After buffs] "Why use Roy, when you can use Marth?"

I bet people would also being saying, "Why use Marth, when you can use Cloud?" if it wasn't for MKLeo maining both and showing that Marth has matchups where he's the better choice.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Always done, and doesn't do any more. It's not the kill power or anything here thats triggering me, anyway. It's the fact that some people still think she loses to no one, and is 1st again.


Then its not Sheik. It's Mr. R, ain't it?
YES, IT IS

No, it's Sheik. Mr. R and VoiD abuse these traits (as they should), but it's all Sheik. Sheik nair covers every ledge get up, so do needles. Wait on the ledge too long and you get dtilted which combos into other tilts, usmash, and uair.

.But still, she can't as much off them as she once could.

She was developed further after getting nerfed, if anything players are consistently getting more % off of combos now than they did pre patch. 40-60% from one combo is a lot of damage, and she can do more if you're a fast faller.

You can not think that the character is the best in the game, that's perfectly fine, no one cares if you have a different opinion, but don't downplay the strengths of one of the best and most developed characters in the game without using actual evidence or facts to support yourself and not expect people to call you out on it.

 

[MistressRemilia]

You're basically just listing Doc's strengths and assuming that's enough. Kirby has better top tier MUs, stronger combos, an easier time landing, better ground mobility, a vertical kill throw, and versatility in MUs offered by his ability to copy his opponents. He also has better ledge trapping and edgeguarding.

Oh, and superior defensive capabilities thanks to being really, really small. Add that with being floaty and he SDIs many things for free.

I personally do not agree with half of the statements you're making, and show a lack of knowledge on the character.
Better top tier matchups is highly arguable: Both of them are pretty bad against Rosalina & Sonic, both of them are good against Fox, Doc does decent against Mario & has a respectable Diddy matchup, Kirby does decent against Sheik & has a decent ZSS matchup. Everything else mostly ranges around the doable loss, at least for the Top 11. So it's fairly even.
Strong combos is not something i agree with, when you consider the character's combo game overall. Kirby may have stronger combos on the fastfallers, but Doc's advantage state is the more consistent one out there, with such things as Dthrow USmash at low% on most charas, and Dthrow Rar Bair x2 at mid%. Landing Uair confirms into grab starting at midlow%, late nair starts some low% combos when used as a landing mixup, sourspot bair can lead into a grab at higher%, and so on. Doc has a very consistent advantage state on top of having a very deep mixup game that can truly be fatal at times.
Easier time landing, i'm not exactly sure how good Kirby's landing is, so i won't state whether or not Doc's landing is better, but improvements have been made on Doc's part that allow the character to land better, most notably, the user of Wavebounce Cape to reverse our momentum. Cape is among the best tools of Doc and is usually non commital, so using it in mid air can save you from some deadly situations. Still, Doc's landing isn't the best, i'd agree wih that, but it has improved over time.
Better ledge trapping is something i'm not sure either. Doc's kit is filled with tools that are very much capable of trapping at the ledge, most notably, Nair makes for a pretty efficient tool against Regular & Offensive getup, since you'll be getting the late hit most of the time, Tornado's mobility allows you to cover roll & regular getup and send them pretty far thanks to the move's strong initial knockback, UpSmash can be used to catch jump airdodge getup, trade with some jump attack getup, as well as against regular getup. Finally, our strong oos game, most notably with UpB. So yeah, our ledge trapping game is plentiful.
On to edgeguard game now, where i'd believe the characters are quite close in terms of capabilities of offstage gimping. Their mobility hold them back from doing much against high recoveries, however, they both shine against low recoveries. Doc's Tornado long lasting hitbox can be used to your advantage to trap airdodges, which is very strong. Using Pills just near ledge to snipe people's jump and preventing them from recovering is also a fairly efficient strategy. Finally, trading the low recoveries with Doc's Dair will lead to a semi spike, similar to what you'd see with Luigi's Cyclone. Characters like Mario can't recover from that.

Overall, i believe that both characters would fullfill the same ideal role in the metagame, with little to no solo viability but niches against different kinds of characters each. Thus, they're about as viable. But if you had a knife close to my neck and ask me who's better, i would say Doc because of his consistency and efficiency in some areas that allow him not only to shine against some brawlers & zoners, but also to be able to be quite a fearsome character for most opponents in the hands of a good player.

 

[PK Gaming]

An explanation post of "we feel his potential is very high" is not going to cut it. The explanation post needs to say "we screwed up with him, he should not be that high. Quirk of how the vote values were applied and much larger variance for those around him along with people putting too much weight on potential. Our bad."

I don't necessarily disagree with your point about Corrin's placement, but I strongly disagree with this sentiment. I mean, who are you to decide what the 4BR should or shouldn't do? They explicitly outlined their voting process in the OP; it was done democratically. You're allowed to be disappointed by the results, but don't try and sell this ridiculous notion that should "apologize" for how the results played out. Nobody should ever feel the need to apologize for their vote. Ever.

 

[MERPIS]

No, it's Sheik. Mr. R and VoiD abuse these traits (as they should), but it's all Sheik. Sheik nair covers every ledge get up, so do needles. Wait on the ledge too long and you get dtilted which combos into other tilts, usmash, and uair.


She was developed further after getting nerfed, if anything players are consistently getting more % off of combos now than they did pre patch. 40-60% from one combo is a lot of damage, and she can do more if you're a fast faller.

You can not think that the character is the best in the game, that's perfectly fine, no one cares if you have a different opinion, but don't downplay the strengths of one of the best and most developed characters in the game without using actual evidence or facts to support yourself and not expect people to call you out on it.

You still cant say she is the best character when she has a huge flaw on her kills. Half of this meta development stuff is people stil being scared of pre sheik rather than post sheik. In fact her kill power is so problematic, it leads her to go even with DK and Bowser, and Ryu. Who can and will kill her usually before she kills them, dont even get me started about Mewtwo.

Anyways, that guy in a few posts above was right, this has gone on long enough. So thats why Im ending it here, also you use Sheik, so thank you for your BIAS sir, good day. And good riddens.

 

[|RK|]

I personally do not agree with half of the statements you're making, and show a lack of knowledge on the character.
Better top tier matchups is highly arguable: Both of them are pretty bad against Rosalina & Sonic, both of them are good against Fox, Doc does decent against Mario & has a respectable Diddy matchup, Kirby does decent against Sheik & has a decent ZSS matchup. Everything else mostly ranges around the doable loss, at least for the Top 11. So it's fairly even.
Strong combos is not something i agree with, when you consider the character's combo game overall. Kirby may have stronger combos on the fastfallers, but Doc's advantage state is the more consistent one out there, with such things as Dthrow USmash at low% on most charas, and Dthrow Rar Bair x2 at mid%. Landing Uair confirms into grab starting at midlow%, late nair starts some low% combos when used as a landing mixup, sourspot bair can lead into a grab at higher%, and so on. Doc has a very consistent advantage state on top of having a very deep mixup game that can truly be fatal at times.
Easier time landing, i'm not exactly sure how good Kirby's landing is, so i won't state whether or not Doc's landing is better, but improvements have been made on Doc's part that allow the character to land better, most notably, the user of Wavebounce Cape to reverse our momentum. Cape is among the best tools of Doc and is usually non commital, so using it in mid air can save you from some deadly situations. Still, Doc's landing isn't the best, i'd agree wih that, but it has improved over time.
Better ledge trapping is something i'm not sure either. Doc's kit is filled with tools that are very much capable of trapping at the ledge, most notably, Nair makes for a pretty efficient tool against Regular & Offensive getup, since you'll be getting the late hit most of the time, Tornado's mobility allows you to cover roll & regular getup and send them pretty far thanks to the move's strong initial knockback, UpSmash can be used to catch jump airdodge getup, trade with some jump attack getup, as well as against regular getup. Finally, our strong oos game, most notably with UpB. So yeah, our ledge trapping game is plentiful.
On to edgeguard game now, where i'd believe the characters are quite close in terms of capabilities of offstage gimping. Their mobility hold them back from doing much against high recoveries, however, they both shine against low recoveries. Doc's Tornado long lasting hitbox can be used to your advantage to trap airdodges, which is very strong. Using Pills just near ledge to snipe people's jump and preventing them from recovering is also a fairly efficient strategy. Finally, trading the low recoveries with Doc's Dair will lead to a semi spike, similar to what you'd see with Luigi's Cyclone. Characters like Mario can't recover from that.

Overall, i believe that both characters would fullfill the same ideal role in the metagame, with little to no solo viability but niches against different kinds of characters each. Thus, they're about as viable. But if you had a knife close to my neck and ask me who's better, i would say Doc because of his consistency and efficiency in some areas that allow him not only to shine against some brawlers & zoners, but also to be able to be quite a fearsome character for most opponents in the hands of a good player.

Kirby either outright beats Fox or goes even with him, and he's widely believed to have one of the best chances against him. And if we're counting this tier list, Kirby also goes about even with Ryu. Plus Kirby has a decent Mario MU as well. On top of that, his MU with Bayo isn't bad either (based Bullet Climax).

Kirby's combo game is actually relatively consistent, though it's not great off a grab on everyone. Reverse uair can lead into bair or utilt on pretty much everyone (which can also lead into bair) at mid percents. It's mostly his early combo game that suffers again non-fastfallers, but he has plenty of cool strings.

Kirby's ledge trapping... his jab functions like a poor man's Falcon jab at the ledge, and so he's able to do a bunch by holding one button. His Nair also covers a lot at the ledge, and his bair is also good at ledge in part because of the ability to stall at the ledge.

Doc's OOS game is better for certain, so I have nothing to say on that. Though Kirby does have slightly better traction and a slightly faster bair oos, it's only by a little, and up b out of shield is a really good option for y'all.

Edgeguards... Dr. Mario generally has to stay close to the stage, while Kirby has the ability to go much deeper, or just stay by the stage as he pleases.

And then on top of that - again, Kirby has better mobility. He has slightly lower airspeed, but much better ground speed, allowing him to get in and chase easier - as long as he's grounded.

Then, none of that (except for the Bayo part, I guess) takes into account the fact that he does have a lot of versatility afforded by copy abilities. Those shift MUs significantly much of the time, but of course doesn't necessarily offer him Doc's consistency.

At any rate, I don't think Kirby should be below Doc on a tier list for the above reasons. I think he's better in disadvantage (multijumps, small size, floaty), advantage (stronger combo game against fastfallers and moderate against non fastfallers), and neutral (better ground mobility, air acceleration improves sh game even with lower airspeed, better pokes, potential for copy).

In either case, Doc definitely has his strong suits, and maybe you believe he can go up in the future as I think Kirby can. I really don't think Kirby should be below Doc for all the reasons I mentioned, but maybe there's something I missed?

 

[L9999]

You still cant say she is the best character when she has a huge flaw on her kills. Half of this meta development stuff is people stil being scared of pre sheik rather than post sheik. In fact her kill power is so problematic, it leads her to go even with DK and Bowser, and Ryu. Who can and will kill her usually before she kills them, dont even get me started about Mewtwo.

Anyways, that guy in a few posts above was right, this has gone on long enough. So thats why Im ending it here, also you use Sheik, so thank you for your BIAS sir, good day. And good riddens.

How are people scared of "prepatch Sheik" when she is no longer among us? It makes no sense. Sheik takes a dump on the entire cast, period. ? Shiek gets him to the ledge, gg, DK can't do anything about Nair on the edge, Shiek can combo him and camp him very easily, as well as killing him with Bouncing Fish and denying his landing. I can believe you but the key word here is "winning." No one can claim they win against Sheik. And no, it is not .

 

[OverTime]

We all realize that the difference between 1st and 4th is 0.32 right?

The difference in whatever points system they decided to use is minuscule between bayonetta and Sheik compared to the Deviation between other tiers, which are divided by intervals of 1.00~.

Sheik can definitely kill. It's not 50/50s as it was prepatch but she definitely has an abundance of kill options. The difference in current Sheik comes from needing situational awareness to remove stocks, as well as the stocks coming approximately 25% later (125 average prepatch to 147 average post patch based on @FeelMeUp 's numbers from one of the earlier threads) Diddy comparatively kills at approximately 130 per stock.

It's more mentality taxing to find stocks with Sheik. That's the problem. Not saying it's not mentally taxing to find stocks with other top tiers. Because it can be. But Sheik I find is by far the hardest. And that wares on long tournaments. Especially in a game where the opponent gets stronger as the game drags on and Sheik herself barely benefits from that concept at all.

Tier list is fine. It's not perfect. But I couldn't make a perfect one either.

 

[The-Technique]

How are people scared of "prepatch Sheik" when she is no longer among us? It makes no sense. Sheik takes a dump on the entire cast, period. ? Shiek gets him to the ledge, gg, DK can't do anything about Nair on the edge, Shiek can combo him and camp him very easily, as well as killing him with Bouncing Fish and denying his landing. I can believe you but the key word here is "winning." No one can claim they win against Sheik. And no, it is not .

I don't think DK's matchups are cut and dry like that...especially when you have moments like Larry reverse 3-0ing Void with DK and Tweek as solo DK beating Komo and MK Leo at MSM (who went Cloud, Bayo, and Sheik)

Beating DK as Sheik pretty much requires perfection, or get grabbed at 60% and die

 

[my_T]

Corrin has wins over Ally, Zinoto, ESAM, Hyuga, Samsora, Aarvark, Ned, DarkShad, Rayquaza, Nakat, Shuton 7 which are in the PGR beaten by Cosmos and Ryuga.

You forgot a few names. Earth has taken sets off of Tsu, Gomamugitya, KEN, OCEAN, and Shuton using Corrin

Also, I don't think you touched up on this but Corrin nair and pin are really good at punishing/discouraging cross-ups of any kind

 

[MistressRemilia]

Kirby either outright beats Fox or goes even with him, and he's widely believed to have one of the best chances against him. And if we're counting this tier list, Kirby also goes about even with Ryu. Plus Kirby has a decent Mario MU as well. On top of that, his MU with Bayo isn't bad either (based Bullet Climax).

Kirby's combo game is actually relatively consistent, though it's not great off a grab on everyone. Reverse uair can lead into bair or utilt on pretty much everyone (which can also lead into bair) at mid percents. It's mostly his early combo game that suffers again non-fastfallers, but he has plenty of cool strings.

Kirby's ledge trapping... his jab functions like a poor man's Falcon jab at the ledge, and so he's able to do a bunch by holding one button. His Nair also covers a lot at the ledge, and his bair is also good at ledge in part because of the ability to stall at the ledge.

Doc's OOS game is better for certain, so I have nothing to say on that. Though Kirby does have slightly better traction and a slightly faster bair oos, it's only by a little, and up b out of shield is a really good option for y'all.

Edgeguards... Dr. Mario generally has to stay close to the stage, while Kirby has the ability to go much deeper, or just stay by the stage as he pleases.

And then on top of that - again, Kirby has better mobility. He has slightly lower airspeed, but much better ground speed, allowing him to get in and chase easier - as long as he's grounded.

Then, none of that (except for the Bayo part, I guess) takes into account the fact that he does have a lot of versatility afforded by copy abilities. Those shift MUs significantly much of the time, but of course doesn't necessarily offer him Doc's consistency.

At any rate, I don't think Kirby should be below Doc on a tier list for the above reasons. I think he's better in disadvantage (multijumps, small size, floaty), advantage (stronger combo game against fastfallers and moderate against non fastfallers), and neutral (better ground mobility, air acceleration improves sh game even with lower airspeed, better pokes, potential for copy).

In either case, Doc definitely has his strong suits, and maybe you believe he can go up in the future as I think Kirby can. I really don't think Kirby should be below Doc for all the reasons I mentioned, but maybe there's something I missed?

Well, i've pretty much explained on a very global scale what there is to know about Doc ( This character probably has among the deepest mixup game & possibility, so much starts & ends combos, so much tools capable of doing wonders in specific situations, but that's mostly details that, while good, aren't mandatory ). I still believe that Doc is a tad better than Kirby because of a more complete neutral, with a subpar but existant long range game in Pills, the best anti zoning tool in the game ( If you do not know, Doc's Cape SH AC ) , and all around great frame data ( Much like Kirby actually, these charas share a lot of their pros & cons ) , an advantage state that's a tad better ( Stronger raw damage output, damage output on consistent combos on everyone is a bit higher, a much easier time killing on a consistent level ), and a disadvantage that's a bit worse but not too bad either.
However, you do bring up fair points about Kirby & Doc. As someone who's thought process leans towards grounded-ness & consitency, i'm incline to go with Doc, but i do respect your opinion and the points you bring, so I'll just agree to disagree.

Edit: Care to explain what makes Kirby v Mario decent? I do not really see it. Ally acted overly respectful of Kirby while falling for some tricks that he was unaware of, such as Kirby's low amount of landing lag on a lot of moves, which allowed Komota to sneak in some nasty hits. That aside, i do not really see how Mario, who outrewards, can outbutton in the aerial part, and kill a bit more efficiently than Kirby, would struggle that much with Kirby.

Edit 2: Don't hesitate to use a bit of Doc to be these elements listed by Gu*do & I in practice, even if of course, you do not main the character. It always help visualizing how some tools fare in practice, what the character ends up doing well & not doing well. This is what i attempt to do with the majority of the cast so tha my opinion on the different characters of the cast is more complete & objective, because objectivity relates to the character's capabilities on the Batllefield, and the best way to see this is to either watch or practice.

 

[TDK]

You don't have to be god to be a good character.

says hi.

Also, who does have the best Sheik matchup in the game right now? I'd say Rosalina.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sheik is disgustingly broken stil

says hi.

Also, who does have the best Sheik matchup in the game right now? I'd say Rosalina.

Other than Rosa I'd say Diddy and Mario. Little Mac too but that's stage dependent

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sheik is disgustingly broken stil

I suggest taking some Alka Seltzer.

Cause you're feeling disgusted by things that aren't that bad.


Sheik is dominant but is nowhere near disgusting levels of broken.

She's good not