Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[blackghost]

I'm a little confused by the shiek debate the character that can shut any and all charafters down at the ledge or by zoning.
I'm also very confused by the hypocrisy on corrin placement v. Bayonetta placement. I read how corrie doesn't have the results for her placement yet I keep reading bayo supercedes that do to her kit. I don't care about the measure but I do care that all variables be consistent. It isn't even a debate that bayo results arent impressive what is a debate is how her top players continue to not be top 4 or frequently not place top 8.
Still think Diddy and shiek remain on top due to neutral games shutting down large portions of the cast and having everything from elite normals to grab games to true kill confirms. There isn't an option either character can't deal with if they read it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.

 

[MERPIS]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.
View attachment 126739

Olimar has too many -2's to be considered for top 15.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Olimar has too many -2's to be considered for top 15.

No he doesn't. He has 0 -2's.

 

[verbatim]

Alright, I'll bite,

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.

Are there any characters on that list that you think have the potential to rise or fall by a lot? Are there any that you think are really underrated or overrated?

I'm not really asking questions about the order because it seems pretty reasonable.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Alright, I'll bite,


Are there any characters on that list that you think have the potential to rise or fall by a lot? Are there any that you think are really underrated or overrated?

I'm not really asking questions about the order because it seems pretty reasonable.

has the potential to fall. , , , , and have potential to rise.

 

[MERPIS]

No he doesn't. He has 0 -2's.

So Sheik fairing or Mewtwo nairing your pikmin away any killing them all in one go is only a -1?
Are you suuuuuuuuuure?

 

[jsmoe]

So Sheik fairing or Mewtwo nairing your pikmin away any killing them all in one go is only a -1?
Are you suuuuuuuuuure?

Arent yellows immune to mewtwo's nair?

 

[MERPIS]

Arent yellows immune to mewtwo's nair?

Yes, just they aren't immune to his fair.

 

[|RK|]

But how do both matchups change after Kirby gets each of their respective kirby hats?

I'd imagine Luigi's fireballs do wonders

Luigi's fireball helps a lot, though Mario's fireballs may be even better. There's a trick with Mario's fireballs where if you buffer dair at the end of fullhop fireball, you only get the frame 1 landing hitbox. So that's decent for covering my approaches. I just haven't practiced it yet.

Luigi's fireballs are interesting because Luigi mains know best how to counter them. They're really good at powershielding things, they know that it doesn't actually confirm into anything, etc. But it's decent for harassment and makes it easier to fight Luigi by a lot. Much safer way to do so at a good distance, counteract his own fireballs, and condition him so getting in is easier.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby vs Mario is widely agreed on to be a losing MU for Kirby, but the MU is -1 and it's NOWHERE near Kirbys worst matchups. Ally just didn't respect Kirby and kept getting hit for free (d-airs onstage, failing to whiff punish, etc). It's not -2 or anything. Mario fireballs are nice but a good Mario won't really care you're throwing fireballs at him lol.

 

[MistressRemilia]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.
View attachment 126739

While the tiers they're in matters more, Fox in 5th is certainly an interesting spot, & an uncommon one in that.
Any particular reason as to why you think Fox is that good?

 

[|RK|]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.
View attachment 126739

I like this tier list. Mostly because of bias, but I like this tier list

Kirby vs Mario is widely agreed on to be a losing MU for Kirby, but the MU is -1 and it's NOWHERE near Kirbys worst matchups. Ally just didn't respect Kirby and kept getting hit for free (d-airs onstage, failing to whiff punish, etc). It's not -2 or anything. Mario fireballs are nice but a good Mario won't really care you're throwing fireballs at him lol.

I agree, but re: fireballs - I think that's the case for many projectiles if you don't use them correctly. Fireball spam is super ineffective, but it's a decent cover/conditioning tool. Also it's amazing for preventing Mario from edgeguarding you and not bad for edgeguarding him, either. Also very useful when you have a lead or for covering a retreat. Tbh, I like them a lot - it's just about using it at the right time and remembering that Mario's fireballs aren't Sheik's needles. Past that, it's all fundamentals.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ness has a horrid matchup chart in theory but because his normals are so strong, he can still get far through player matchups.

A character with those aerials and that backthrow will never be low tier. Period.

Ness' MU chart gets underrated way too much, every time I see a MU chart that they always list Ness as a dominating win at this point. It's not the greatest no but it's not that bad. Out of the top tiers Ness only solidly loses to Shiek and Rosa everything else is either slight win or loss or even.

Corrin, Shiek and Rosa are the only characters that are -2 for Ness (there is even growing debate Rosa might just be -1 which I don't believe yet) That's it, everything else is -1 or up even MUs like Cloud and Marth aren't as bad as they are made out to be.

He's perfectly placed right now on the tier list and even without FOW and Shaky being around for a while his results have not tanked like made out to believe. Like you said above the idea a character with that much kill power be below Top 30 is just plain lack of knowledge on the character.

 

[Frihetsanka]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.
View attachment 126739

Why are Toon Link, Lucas, Greninja, and Link so low?

 

[Guido65]

Why are Toon Link, Lucas, Greninja, and Link so low?

Considering his tier list is based off his experience I wouldn't be that surprised by link being that low since he did beat sova unknown and T.

 

[Nu~]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

How so?

 

[verbatim]

There were more Olimar's in frostbite top 8 than DLC characters, food for thought.


I think that a lot of public opinion on Olimar will primarily come down to how much Shuton can travel, but he clearly showed that the character has some really strong plus's and ways to work around weaknesses.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think that a lot of public opinion on Olimar will primarily come down to how much Shuton can travel, but he clearly showed that the character has some really strong plus's and ways to work around weaknesses.

If Dabuz switches to solo Olimar and keeps getting great results I bet a lot of people are going to board the Olimar hype train.

 

[Eden Rocks]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.
View attachment 126739

Diddy #1? Check, S tier looks good, Fox 5? Interesting, good call, oh...what's this? Trying to sneak Sonic in there 5 or so spots too low, thereby vicariously making yourself a little better, for maining a character way down there? Haha good try. You almost slipped it by me. You must have picked up that trick fromZero...

Nice list. I like that you have Ike's back and you're hooking him up with a C hall pass real quick, 'cuz a "D" is not a good look for Ike. Oh, and there's just no way Doc is *actually* that low, is there? It just doesn't make any sense, in theory.

 

[pichuplayer]

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.
View attachment 126739

Pikachu at 19th is...intresting I would of though Meta Knight would be below him at least

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Even the character design itself is pure poison (a sexed-up vixen gyrating all over the place in this game - I know that really isn't relevant, but man do I hate me some Bayo).

I think this is affecting your judgement man.

is a top 15 character. Fact.

I'm going to post my current opinionated tier list based on playing, experience, and theory. This will be ordered. Feel free to critique.
View attachment 126739

If I may ask.

Why did you put Charizard, Samus and Little Mac under Bowser Jr. and Falco?

 

[DanGR]

Diddy #1? Check, S tier looks good, Fox 5? Interesting, good call, oh...what's this? Trying to sneak Sonic in there 5 or so spots too low, thereby vicariously making yourself a little better, for maining a character way down there? Haha good try. You almost slipped it by me. You must have picked up that trick fromZero...

Nice list. I like that you have Ike's back and you're hooking him up with a C hall pass real quick, 'cuz a "D" is not a good look for Ike. Oh, and there's just no way Doc is *actually* that low, is there? It just doesn't make any sense, in theory.

Or maybe, you know, he just thinks Sonic is roughly 10th? Not everyone's below-average placement of their main has be interpreted as some type of ego-protecting, defensive pessimism. Jeeze.

 

[|RK|]

Diddy #1? Check, S tier looks good, Fox 5? Interesting, good call, oh...what's this? Trying to sneak Sonic in there 5 or so spots too low, thereby vicariously making yourself a little better, for maining a character way down there? Haha good try. You almost slipped it by me. You must have picked up that trick fromZero...

Nice list. I like that you have Ike's back and you're hooking him up with a C hall pass real quick, 'cuz a "D" is not a good look for Ike. Oh, and there's just no way Doc is *actually* that low, is there? It just doesn't make any sense, in theory.

Joe plays Sonic and Diddy.

Also, the Bayo hate is... a bit much. Check this video out:

 

[MistressRemilia]

Diddy #1? Check, S tier looks good, Fox 5? Interesting, good call, oh...what's this? Trying to sneak Sonic in there 5 or so spots too low, thereby vicariously making yourself a little better, for maining a character way down there? Haha good try. You almost slipped it by me. You must have picked up that trick fromZero...

Nice list. I like that you have Ike's back and you're hooking him up with a C hall pass real quick, 'cuz a "D" is not a good look for Ike. Oh, and there's just no way Doc is *actually* that low, is there? It just doesn't make any sense, in theory.

That's the same spot as Doc's official spot on the V3 BR list.
But i do agree that it is rather low ( for both cases ) , but the character's kind of hopeless at this point. I'm fairly convinced that nobody will pick him up despite what he has to offer, our playerbase is way too small to do waves at tournaments. Even if theoritically, the amount of consistent & strong tools Doc has to offer gives him a niche against a majority of brawlers ( Strong raw damage output, great out of shield, great frame data & kill confirms allow Doc to put pressure on most Brawlers who are mostly unable to rival hhim in these areas, neutral is also usually less of a struggle because they do not possess the greatest keepaway game ) and some zoners ( I've mentionned it countless times, but Doc's Cape is a fantastic tool, with its SH AC, and the options that Wavebounce opens up with the reversal of momentum to make for a very non commital tool that can even poke shields. The stronger raw damage output & less gimmicky kills than most zoners is also still a + against most zoners, and i'd add that Doc's item game & glide toss is among the better one out there, with truly fatal options at some range ). Sadly though, most of these facts remain highly theoritical due to the character's oh-so-poor representation in tournament, and this is very unlikely to change.

If you're interested in the facts i've mentionned about Cape, you can watch this japanese set of Shky vs Tsumusuto, which showcases an efficient use of Cape in the neutral. Generally, Tsumusuto isn't the most skilled player out there but he got down Doc's Neutral and the options available on a general level, so i'd recommend watching some of his sets:

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Even then, Bayonetta's performance, while very good is not the best. Sheik, Cloud and Diddy have more major win results and Bayo's weaknesses are starting to show. She's not going to ruin the metagame and she's not anywhere near .

This game does not have a . If it did, we'd have found it in 6 months.

 

[Y2Kay]

People underrating Greninja doesn't even slightly trigger me anymore. Guess I'll just focus on improving my shinobi craft then.

 

[Heracr055]

@Chainz Greninja just had his best placing at a major at Frostbite. I think if anything, there should be a good sense of optimism for the character.

 

[pichuplayer]

Alright getting things back on track here here's my tier list. Feel free to ask any questions as the tiers are ordered

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Alright getting things back on track here here's my tier list. Feel free to ask any questions as the tiers are orderedView attachment 126743

That's a really big top tier.

Why did you put DK and Bowser higher than Corrin?

Also why is Chairzard so low, he should be on the opposite end?

EDIT: Wait, why is Lucina THAT low? 4 tiers seems a bit extreme.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Uh...
I think the obvious thing everyone's noticed is that...
Lucina is a bit low. To say the least.
Also, Ryu outside of Top 20?... I think even the actual pessimists don't put him that low.

 

[pichuplayer]

That's a really big top tier.

Why did you put DK and Bowser higher than Corrin?

Also why is Chairzard so low, he should be on the opposite end?

EDIT: Wait, why is Lucina THAT low? 4 tiers seems a bit extreme.

Top Tiers simply big because I didn't seperate like I usually do same with High-Mid tier

DK and Bowser > Corrin is a little sketchy I'll admit but I feel as if Corrin's heavily overrated right now.

Zard was a tricky one to place I feel like he can rise a little bit more but I felt like tht was a good place to have him.

When I look at Lucina I look at her as if she was her own character not a clone of Marth this includes results so I feel like this is a good place for her when looking at her by herself IMO.

 

[NairWizard]

Man, what is the deal with this topic? The last time a tier list was new there wasn't this much vitriol. Would be nice if the mods would take a slightly stricter approach to moderating the posts in here. ( Shaya where you at sir)

She represents everything that is horrible with Smash, which itself is a microcosm for everything that is wrong with popular culture.

what lol

Smash is one of the least sexualized fighting games ever.

ZSS is meant to be sexy because Samus has always been meant to be sexy in her games when her power suit is off, and Bayonetta's flirty attitude is a big part of the Bayonetta games, but after that... power suit Samus, Peach, Zelda, Rosalina, Lucina, Sheik, femCorrin, femRobin, Wendy... none of these female characters are in the least bit sexualized. (like Zelda's dress exposes her upper back I think? that's about all). Your argument doesn't hold.

 

[ARGHETH]

...great. Are we at the "let's all post our tier lists!" stage already?

DK and Bowser > Corrin is a little sketchy I'll admit but I feel as if Corrin's heavily overrated right now.

There's quite a difference between being overrated at 13th and being 29th.

 

[FamilyTeam]

When I look at Lucina I look at her as if she was her own character not a clone of Marth this includes results so I feel like this is a good place for her when looking at her by herself IMO.

You gotta have a pretty bad outlook of her, then, she's got everything that makes Marth great still there.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Lucina should be separated from Marth 1 tier maximum.

4 tiers is frankly ridiculous.

Even without tippers, Lucina still has Marth's great stats, frame data and moves.

When I look at Lucina I look at her as if she was her own character not a clone of Marth this includes results so I feel like this is a good place for her when looking at her by herself IMO.

Frankly no, that makes it worse.

Lucina still has all those positives up there. I can't understand why the gap is this big.

 

[pichuplayer]

Uh...
I think the obvious thing everyone's noticed is that...
Lucina is a bit low. To say the least.
Also, Ryu outside of Top 20?... I think even the actual pessimists don't put him that low.

For Lucina:
When I look at Lucina I look at her as if she was her own character not a clone of Marth this includes results so I feel like this is a good place for her when looking at her by herself IMO.

As for Ryu I think he's overrated by quite a few people he actually was a lot lower on my list tbh but I thought it was a little to much and why's he's not top 20 is because I feel like he hasn't had as many breakout performances then the characters above consistently

 

[Eden Rocks]

Re: the tier list itself, it seems mostly all voters are in agreement that she is a clear #1 (as well as Zero outright stating it recently), what argument is there against that?

 

[FamilyTeam]

pichuplayer
You still have not answered us about the Lucina positioning.
Quoting yourself is not going to help, especially when that didn't help explain.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Oof I thought this was supposed to be the most strictly moderated thread but meh everyone is posting their tier lists up but i'm abstaining. Not enough stage selection data to even warrant a list from me anyways.