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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Swamp Sensei

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On another note, I really do think Ike is underrated. He's got all sorts of tricks up his sleeves but he's treated as low tier anymore.

Is that because there are just so many high tiers? Ike doesn't seem like a character one would normally think of as low tier.
 
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Rizen

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Somehow this thread's quality is lower than the previous. Come on, let's step up our game.
I disagree. Someone has to be the worst, yes, but there doesn't have to be a dedicated "bottom" tier, just as there doesn't have to be an "SS"-tier. Compare the MU charts of Brawl and Melee bottom tiers to the "bottom" tiers of Smash 4. The worst characters in Smash 4 have pretty bad MU charts, sure, but they're still better than Brawl bottom tiers, or Melee bottom tiers.

In general, -3 MUs are much less common in Smash 4 compared to the previous games. Being a bottom 5 character is better than ever before.
It's semantics. Whether Ganon's bottom tier or the tier on the very bottom he's still bottom 5 and worse than the low tiers imo. He's not on Charizard or Little Mac's level.
:4ganondorf: is the punish king; he's terrifying if you can read the opponent. Ganon's attacks like DA, wizkick, Uair etc are huge and if you mess up in their very large AoE you're eating 15-30%+ from 1 or 2 moves. You mess up offstage at any %, your dead. Your shield breaks and you're dead at like 20% from reverse Warlock Punch. He also has a command grab mix-up.
But Ganon can't really force anything and loses in every area- neutral, advantage, disadvantage. He's mobility and approaches is the worst in the game. His cr** recovery means he dies much sooner than even medium weights. He's probably the most vulnerable to cheese and camping of the cast. Just cheese him and don't commit.



PS Bayo is a huge turn off.
 
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pichuplayer

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...great. Are we at the "let's all post our tier lists!" stage already?

There's quite a difference between being overrated at 13th and being 29th.
Yeah I think we are at that stage as for Corrin I'm not really going to budge on her until she has a break out performance

You gotta have a pretty bad outlook of her, then, she's got everything that makes Marth great still there.
TBH I really do though I have seen people place her lower then I do and even if she does have everything Marth has minus tipper but I feel there's something off with her that makes me feel like she, yes a decent character, but not high tier really.
Lucina should be separated from Marth 1 tier maximum.

4 tiers is frankly ridiculous.

Even without tippers, Lucina still has Marth's great stats, frame data and moves.

Frankly no, that makes it worse.

Lucina still has all those positives up there. I can't understand why the gap is this big.
Is 4 tiers overkill on the gap? Most likley but I just can't see her in high tier period when results-wise she has nothing to stand on.
 

pichuplayer

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This is the first time I've ever been called an SJW. Considering I lean right, I'm a bit baffled.



On another note, I really do think Ike is underrated. He's got all sorts of tricks up his sleeves but he's treated as low tier anymore.

Is that because there are just so many high tiers? Ike doesn't seem like a character one would normally think of as low tier.
To many high tiers..mmmm yeah that'll do it no real consistent results but I feel, like everyone in this cast, Ike can do really well but can't because Cloud exists at least that's what I see and because of that Ike just tends to fall off
 

|RK|

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Joe is at least part of 4BR, so the list there is relevant considering the topic. As for everyone else? Not really.

Tbh, I'm trying to put less stock in character placement.

Re: Lucina - I hope she gets some results at Civil War.
 

ARGHETH

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Is 4 tiers overkill on the gap? Most likley but I just can't see her in high tier period when results-wise she has nothing to stand on.
She's 36th and below DH, Link, and ROB, and one place above Wario.
Like, people think she's not as good as certain people here say she is, but below 70% of the cast?
 

Routa

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Please for the love of Daddy Sakurai do not post your own "tier lists". Or if you do please at least tell us all the factors you looked at when you made that list.

I will post my thoughts about the list made by the backroom later.
 

FamilyTeam

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Yeah I think we are at that stage as for Corrin I'm not really going to budge on her until she has a break out performance


TBH I really do though I have seen people place her lower then I do and even if she does have everything Marth has minus tipper but I feel there's something off with her that makes me feel like she, yes a decent character, but not high tier really.


Is 4 tiers overkill on the gap? Most likley but I just can't see her in high tier period when results-wise she has nothing to stand on.
My mate, if you ain't making a results tier list, then results shouldn't be the driving force of the list you're building - they should be considered but not the only thing.
And so what if people place her lower? That don't make 'em any righter. They're wrong as well.
If there's "something off" about Lucina that doesn't make her high tier, there's something off that doesn't make Marth high tier either.
If you were in such doubt of everything you did and the reasons why you placed people where you did are as cloudy as you're making them look like, then the harsh reality of the situation is that you should not have made it.
When I make a tier list, the end result is a massive soup of factors, and I take over a week to build one I feel comfortable call mine. You can't really just make a tier list and say "Nah character x is not on High Tier because I don't feel like it".
 

pichuplayer

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She's 36th and below DH, Link, and ROB, and one place above Wario.
Like, people think she's not as good as certain people here say she is, but below 70% of the cast?
This is what I think I wouldn't think she could get high level placings like Marth can I feel like she can get 25th-33rd like the rest of the characters in low mid/mid
 

Nathan Richardson

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I think Das Koopa can make a phenomenal tier list. He keeps track of all the results in the tourneys and has them listed. Should we ask what he thinks of all this? I know that results shouldn't be the only factor but it's the main factor with things like what tools the character has, how well each character works in tournament legal stages, and what buttons and frame data they have.
However, having the character data without the results to prove that data is just theorycraft, while having results but not a ton of data can at least give us an idea of where the character fits.
 
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pichuplayer

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My mate, if you ain't making a results tier list, then results shouldn't be the driving force of the list you're building - they should be considered but not the only thing.
And so what if people place her lower? That don't make 'em any righter. They're wrong as well.
If there's "something off" about Lucina that doesn't make her high tier, there's something off that doesn't make Marth high tier either.
If you were in such doubt of everything you did and the reasons why you placed people where you did are as cloudy as you're making them look like, then the harsh reality of the situation is that you should not have made it.
When I make a tier list, the end result is a massive soup of factors, and I take over a week to build one I feel comfortable call mine. You can't really just make a tier list and say "Nah character x is not on High Tier because I don't feel like it".
Results aren't the only thing I put into it but I do favor them a bit more then others would. Again I look at Lucina as a different character to Marth like Dr.Mario to Mario I just feel like her tools while good are overshadowed by higher tiered sword characters in general as the all have some different trait from one another where Lucina is just...average, can she rise? No doubt I just feel she needs a boost in results because I'm not the biggest fan of a character getting results off of someone else unless they are the exact same like Pit and Dark Pit how long this list took to make I'd have to say a week aswell.

I think Das Koopa can make a phenomenal tier list. He keeps track all the results in the tourneys and has them listed. Should we ask what he thinks of all this?
That would be....intresting if he wants to he can lets not force him
 
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FamilyTeam

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. Again I look at Lucina as a different character to Marth like Dr.Mario to Mario I just feel like her tools while good are overshadowed by higher tiered sword characters in general as the all have some different trait from one another where Lucina is just...average, can she rise?
When you say that, I have the right to assume you know all about her tools and exactly how they're outclassed by "other swordsmen".
So. How are her tools? How are they worse than other swordsman's?
And although you are separating Marth and Lucina in your head, Marth and Lucina have access to 95% of the same options. So how are her options any different from Marth's?
Again, you're not actually explaining much of anything.
 

Nathan Richardson

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Also pichuplayer watch the doubleposts we use the edit button if we have more to add after the post is made. I've seen other people told this at least once.
 

Sinister Slush

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Joe is at least part of 4BR, so the list there is relevant considering the topic. As for everyone else? Not really.
He's part of the 4BR but didn't bother voting unfortunately. The article shows who all voted.
We have around 70ish members and had 45, that's a decent amount of voters but more would've always been welcomed.
 

pichuplayer

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When you say that, I have the right to assume you know all about her tools and exactly how they're outclassed by "other swordsmen".
So. How are her tools? How are they worse than other swordsman's?
And although you are separating Marth and Lucina in your head, Marth and Lucina have access to 95% of the same options. So how are her options any different from Marth's?
Again, you're not actually explaining much of anything.
(Other swordsmen meaning Marth, Toon Link and Cloud btw)
Her neutral comparing to them is good imo better then Toon's but at the same time worse then Marth and Cloud due to thier range and, really more for Cloud, better mobility and they all have ways to get people to approach them but I feel Lucina is the least effective (Though this is MU dependent). Her advantage stage of the four is imo the worst but comparing to other characters is still good why is it worse? Marth gets earlier kills and more % off of most strings/combos Toon Link has bomb setups and though slightly inconsistent does do a lot of damage and could lead to a kill and Cloud gets a lot off of winning neutral juggles, kills etc. Finally her disadvantage state its good but a bit linear (and yes I know its like Marth's) her recovery doesn't grant much in horizontal distance and a well timed d-air, f-air or maybe even b-air could spell the end of her I feel like Toon Link's is the best (minus limit Cloud) but on this I could be wrong. Her tools are different then Marth's because of one aspect tipper while not affecting her neutral (at least to me) or her disadvantage stage it affects how early she can kill you at which in some cases is a big deal.
Also pichuplayer watch the doubleposts we use the edit button if we have more to add after the post is made. I've seen other people told this at least once.
Aw damn
 

FamilyTeam

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(Other swordsmen meaning Marth, Toon Link and Cloud btw)
Her neutral comparing to them is good imo better then Toon's but at the same time worse then Marth and Cloud due to thier range and, really more for Cloud, better mobility and they all have ways to get people to approach them but I feel Lucina is the least effective (Though this is MU dependent). Her advantage stage of the four is imo the worst but comparing to other characters is still good why is it worse? Marth gets earlier kills and more % off of most strings/combos Toon Link has bomb setups and though slightly inconsistent does do a lot of damage and could lead to a kill and Cloud gets a lot off of winning neutral juggles, kills etc. Finally her disadvantage state its good but a bit linear (and yes I know its like Marth's) her recovery doesn't grant much in horizontal distance and a well timed d-air, f-air or maybe even b-air could spell the end of her I feel like Toon Link's is the best (minus limit Cloud) but on this I could be wrong. Her tools are different then Marth's because of one aspect tipper while not affecting her neutral (at least to me) or her disadvantage stage it affects how early she can kill you at which in some cases is a big deal.
Actually, uh
the fact that you said "Disadvantage state" and "good" in the same sentence while referring to Lucina just kinda shows everybody in this thread that you don't actually know what you're talking about, I will just point that out there. The bad disadvantage state of Marth and Lucina is arguably their biggest weakness outside of landing.
The rest is just stuff that has been discussed here and in many other places in the past: It's borderline stereotypical stuff from people that don't play the character. Her advantage state when compared to Marth's plays borderlien identical, her range with Marth is the same for the trillionth time, her Neutral is literally identical to Marth's, and her disadvantage state is poo like stated before.
 

OverTime

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Because none of this matters...

At what point does a character stop mattering in the game? What causes that? And where is it in our own game?

Looking at the current tier list, after Olimar the characters take a significant drop in relevant, consistent results. I would even say Bowser and Luigi (less so than Bowser) fall behind Olimar in that sense. Characters who focus on peaks instead of consistent streams of results, coming from a single player or not.

I'm of the opinion that those characters just aren't important besides being able to make an upset, they'll never be relevant to anywhere near the same extent that the high tiers are. Upsets do not win a tournament, consistency does.

So where would you put the line of characters not mattering?
 

ARISTOS

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Because none of this matters...

At what point does a character stop mattering in the game? What causes that? And where is it in our own game?

Looking at the current tier list, after Olimar the characters take a significant drop in relevant, consistent results. I would even say Bowser and Luigi (less so than Bowser) fall behind Olimar in that sense. Characters who focus on peaks instead of consistent streams of results, coming from a single player or not.

I'm of the opinion that those characters just aren't important besides being able to make an upset, they'll never be relevant to anywhere near the same extent that the high tiers are. Upsets do not win a tournament, consistency does.

So where would you put the line of characters not mattering?
Everyone matters, as far as pretty much every character in this game can **** up your bracket run.

As far as consistent relevancy? Hard to say with just the tiers. ROB is in C but hasn't really been relevant for awhile now, especially compared to Shulk, who is below him.

As a rule, I'd argue C, but only if you're already competing beyond the regional level. Below that you should probably be ready for a majority of the cast.

how we got to sexualization in vidya, I'll never know

i like it tho
 

Eden Rocks

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Because none of this matters...

At what point does a character stop mattering in the game? What causes that? And where is it in our own game?

Looking at the current tier list, after Olimar the characters take a significant drop in relevant, consistent results. I would even say Bowser and Luigi (less so than Bowser) fall behind Olimar in that sense. Characters who focus on peaks instead of consistent streams of results, coming from a single player or not.

I'm of the opinion that those characters just aren't important besides being able to make an upset, they'll never be relevant to anywhere near the same extent that the high tiers are. Upsets do not win a tournament, consistency does.

So where would you put the line of characters not mattering?
I disagree. This does matters. When I'm discussing NFL power rankings, I hear a similar statement made ad nauseum (rankings don't matter), and this is generally my retort: it matters to the fans of the sport, to balance the relative strength of all 32 teams against each other, if the fan finds it stimulating to do so, and enjoys consuming the product as a whole. An accurate ranking is obviously the key element in that scenario. To take it a step further, when a person makes a statement such as: "sports don't matter, it's just entertainment", I generally retort by insisting that sports at the highest levelactually reveals a huge amount of information about humanity, which is still, objectively a huge mystery (people tend to forget this!). Watching the greatest athlets pitted against each other on the biggest stage is simply fascinating to observe (for obvious reasons). Compare this to something like the (fake) news, and there is no comparison. All of this applies directly to Smash.

You make a good point, in that many characters, most people would say, are actually "irrelevant", but I dislike that line of thinking. There is always the potentially game-changing element of a so-called "worthless" character reinventing the entire metagame, in the hands of that one special player, who put in the work, and discovered a strategy that no other player anywhere had. Therefore, *every* character should be seen as relevant. Of course, the top-top pros will be milking their top tiers so that they can make their living, but for the mid-level (pro) people, there is possibly great opportunity there. Look at Keitaro. Why do you *really* think he mains Falco now (as far as I'm aware)? It's because he realized that he could get more out of his brand by being the most prominent Falco, as opposed to specializing in an unquestionably superior character that loses in dittos to better players. It was a career move, and a good one. I know his Falco is not his biggest draw, but it still helps his brand nevertheless. This is just one example.
 

Nobie

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A character who can win consistently will be better than one who can only make the occasional upset.

But at the same time, we've seen those once-off upsets turn the tide of a tournament, the main example being Nairo's Doc vs. Esam at MLG 2015. It's less likely to happen over time, but I think the lower tiers of Smash 4 are good enough and the roster large enough that we'll keep getting monkey wrenches messing up people's bracket runs for a long time.

Top players would love to have a predictable set of top characters to prepare for. As long as people keep playing the lower tiers, the unpredictability of a given bracket will always be there. So, mid-tier and below might not win tournaments, but they can often keep OTHERS from winning tournaments. Not a bad place to be, especially if you like ruining dreams.

Moving on to another thought: Bat WIthin.

Over and over, we've seen Bat Within foil hoo-hah combos and such. It frustrates players because what should have been a kill turns out to be otherwise.

My question is, would it be possible to purposely trigger Bat Within with low-lag moves so you can be in full control of your character before Bayo is? Namely, I'm thinking of not just fast moves, but ones where the amount of frames between the first active hitbox and the end of the move. For example, Bowser Jr.'s Up Air, Mario's Up Air, etc.

I imagine Luigi would be especially strong at this, because he has a combination of fast aerials, ones with early first active frames, and the threat of killing aerials on top of that. Any Luigi players got any input?
 

Frihetsanka

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It's semantics. Whether Ganon's bottom tier or the tier on the very bottom he's still bottom 5 and worse than the low tiers imo.
I agree that he's still bottom 5 (at least if Miis aren't included), but I also think that "Bottom tier" should be left for characters with lots of -3 MUs and such. Ganondorf? Does he even have all that many -3 MUs? He's not as bad as in Brawl.

Anyway, I suppose it's kind of semantics. They did drop Bottom tier this time though, so he's technically Low tier and should be referred a such (at least for the official tier list).
 

Mr. Johan

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Moving on to another thought: Bat WIthin.

Over and over, we've seen Bat Within foil hoo-hah combos and such. It frustrates players because what should have been a kill turns out to be otherwise.

My question is, would it be possible to purposely trigger Bat Within with low-lag moves so you can be in full control of your character before Bayo is? Namely, I'm thinking of not just fast moves, but ones where the amount of frames between the first active hitbox and the end of the move. For example, Bowser Jr.'s Up Air, Mario's Up Air, etc.

I imagine Luigi would be especially strong at this, because he has a combination of fast aerials, ones with early first active frames, and the threat of killing aerials on top of that. Any Luigi players got any input?

Purposefully triggering Bat Within to secure a frame advantage with the next move means you have to know Bayonetta is going to airdodge or Witch Time in the first place. That in itself incurs some risk, since Bayonetta can just as quickly ABK or WTw.

If you're going to abuse Bat Within, you have to have the frame data necessary to force Bayonetta to use airdodges as their only resort. As such, it's not something that can be predicted, only reacted to during the middle of a string.
 

L9999

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Bayonetta, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud. The scores between them all are ridiculously close (for a reason!), and everyone has an opinion here, or an opinion there on the best of them. At the end of the day they're all very good, and I would hazard to say as a pessimist that those four will soon make 60% or more of the cast effectively unviable.

Welcome to 2017. Hopefully it's not all bad, right?
Well, you are not exactly wrong, low tiers aside, most mid tiers have the top 4 as their gatekeeper MUs.

Eden Rocks Eden Rocks :4bayonetta: is not poisoning Smash 4 in any way, as she is not winning every tournament ever, doesn't have a MU spread of only +2s/+3s, and she has weaknesses to exploit. Witch Time may be salt inducing but it is not the "anathema of Smash" like you like to call it and it doesn't carry anyone. If you get WT'd constantly is because you are predictable, and the Bayo player has all the right to punish you; learn the MU. This thread is about Smash 4's metagame and how the characters develop or go down the toilet, not about how Bayonetta is "everything wrong with society." Want to see competitive poison? Watch Brawl, were :metaknight: exist and even if you delete him :popo: break the game just as bad, and even after deleting those little devils :olimar::diddy: still break the game just as bad.
 
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Krysco

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Something I find surprising is how Sheik is below 3 other characters and yet is often claimed to have no losing mu's. I know a discussion on the matter was just held recently but Cloud is often said to lose to Sheik and possibly others. Bayo may have negative mu's with Luigi or Toon Link and Diddy was said before to lose to...I think it was Mega Man, Olimar and Luigi? And Bayo is more recently being debated if she has losing mu's while Sheik had 1 earlier on (Mewtwo) that is now being considered even. Having no negative mu's wouldn't necessarily make a character number 1 (in theory, a character with even mu's across the entire board wouldn't be #1) but with her being a 'clear top 4 character' I'm surprised how few tier lists have her as number 1. Maybe it's just a lack of representation and results? Bayo and Cloud have far more representation and Diddy has Zero while Sheik's biggest results come in from just Mr. R and Void.
 

Eden Rocks

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Well, you are not exactly wrong, low tiers aside, most mid tiers have the top 4 as their gatekeeper MUs.

Eden Rocks Eden Rocks :4bayonetta: is not poisoning Smash 4 in any way, as she is not winning every tournament ever, doesn't have a MU spread of only +2s/+3s, and she has weaknesses to exploit. Witch Time may be salt inducing but it is not the "anathema of Smash" like you like to call it and it doesn't carry anyone. If you get WT'd constantly is because you are predictable, and the Bayo player has all the right to punish you; learn the MU. This thread is about Smash 4's metagame and how the characters develop or go down the toilet, not about how Bayonetta is "everything wrong with society." Want to see competitive poison? Watch Brawl, were :metaknight: exist and even if you delete him :popo: break the game just as bad, and even after deleting those little devils :olimar::diddy: still break the game just as bad.
How do you "tag" somebody here?

Yah fine, I commented on her as it pertains directly to the tier list, adding a brief word (admitting it was superfluous/poetic), and responded when that part of my comment was referenced. That's all that. As far as I'm concerned, that's a legit comment. If the mods want to run me off of here for whatever reason, then that's their politically motivated/territorial power play decision. This ain't my first rodeo, son...

I don't get pwned by WT, I was just offering up an entertaining image for the purposes of discussion. I play MM and bait out the WT with leaf shield and mega buster. I do decently well for my casual level against Bayo, actually. I find that by grinding them down, they get frustrated with finishing off the stock, and then I have to execute an opening correctly to finish their stock. It ain't easy.

But no, she is poison, sir. She's the worst thing to happen to this game by a mile. We all know it. Really, what explains her #1 placement/Zero's clear proclamation of the same, without any results to back it up in the least? That can be viewed as a sort of "protest" or commentary, wouldn't you say? The "soft ban" existing in the first place? Sure, I take it to the extreme, you got me. And yes, of course...I struggled through the years of Brawl Wifi, with the "taunt parties"...<vomits in mouth>...yes, you're certainly right, dealing with her is like resting my head on a lovely pillow, compared with dealing with those Brawl Metaknights and their cronies. You know how I beat the Taunt Parties, real quick? I planked with Samus. I took out 90+% of those parties with that method, with them trading stocks and everything. I've been slaying trolls for years. That smell, you smell, is the stench of caked troll blood on my scimitar, my cracked tower shield with Sakurai's face engraved on it, and on the bottom of my boots. I am a true Smasher. I'll not apologize for that. And I haven't flamed anybody. But I'll take the mod like a man. I get it. That's fine. So, that's that.
 

Frihetsanka

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On another note, I really do think Ike is underrated. He's got all sorts of tricks up his sleeves but he's treated as low tier anymore.

Is that because there are just so many high tiers? Ike doesn't seem like a character one would normally think of as low tier.
Who thinks Ike is a low tier? D is mid tier.
 

Nah

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How do you "tag" somebody here?
You start by typing @

and then as you begin to type their username, a list of names will appear. You can click on their their name if it appears in this list (may have to type more letters depending on username to make it appear) and it'll finish for you, or you can also just type @ followed by the full username to get it too

type Nah Nah and mine should appear on the list. Try doing it to see if you can tag me.
 

Eden Rocks

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You start by typing @

and then as you begin to type their username, a list of names will appear. You can click on their their name if it appears in this list (may have to type more letters depending on username to make it appear) and it'll finish for you, or you can also just type @ followed by the full username to get it too

type Nah Nah and mine should appear on the list. Try doing it to see if you can tag me.
Hey, thanks, bud. I was thinking to take your advice and do as you suggested...but nah.

Nah Nah
 

FamilyTeam

This strength serves more than me alone.
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Nah is a reference to someone in this case. I'd only use tags if you need to talk to somebody but nothing they said in any recent post is relevant for you to quote.

Going back to discussion, I do have to wonder if Corrin and Cloud really are the sole blame as to why Ike has been falling off so much recently.
 

Eden Rocks

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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Nah is a reference to someone in this case. I'd only use tags if you need to talk to somebody but nothing they said in any recent post is relevant for you to quote.

Going back to discussion, I do have to wonder if Corrin and Cloud really are the sole blame as to why Ike has been falling off so much recently.
Look, I understand thtand that. The reason I asked in the first place is to save page space in some instances. I followed through by trying it for the first time, going along with his spirit of helpfulness.

Re: Ike: Ike is a secondary of mine (not that I'm a pro), and I also have to admit that my usage of him has dropped off a bit, in favor of other secondaries. There must be something in the psychology of players right now in the meta overall, that makes Ike less appealing to use. Here is some purely speculative high-level analysis: oberservers will easily notice that the two most prominent American Ike mains, Ryuga and Ryo, both opted for Corrin instead. Perhaps, their psychologies are similar, and that can explain why. I could expound on this...but here is the gist...they both identify with heavy/strong characters, underdogs, and enjoy the artistic aspect of being a tremendous hero swinging a sword around. They both rose to prominence through their determination. Then, they both realized that it would be better for their brand if they gave up on such a seemingly limited character. So, who to choose? Cloud is the obvious candidate, but he is too much of a front-runner. So, the next logical choice is Corrin, who also just happens to be under-appreciated (compared to Cloud and Bayo), thereby granting her a somewhat-underdog status.

There you go. So, also, if you guys do usher me out of here, you will be losing out on that perspective totally. If that's worth anything to you.
 

Das Koopa

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I agree that he's still bottom 5 (at least if Miis aren't included), but I also think that "Bottom tier" should be left for characters with lots of -3 MUs and such. Ganondorf? Does he even have all that many -3 MUs? He's not as bad as in Brawl.

Anyway, I suppose it's kind of semantics. They did drop Bottom tier this time though, so he's technically Low tier and should be referred a such (at least for the official tier list).
I'd say his MUs against Bayonetta/Sheik probably reach 20-80. Cloud and Diddy can't be much better than 30-70. I'm thinking of prohibitively bad match-ups like Meta Knight/Peach that are probably 70-30 MKs favor and how they basically roadblock the character from being any higher on the Tier List since the brackets are prohibitive and make it VERY difficult to reach Top 8s. Now, what if that character had 2 of those, plus 2 more that are possibly even worse than that, all those 4 match-ups are all against the best characters in the game - many of which are really common to see at the top level?

Even if Ganondorf doesn't necessarily have unwinnable MUs against mid-tiers I feel like him having prohibitively bad match-ups against high tiers increases the potential for a Ganondorf to get thrown into losers early vs. semi-competent Diddy/Bayo/etc. mains. I feel like that really defines how bad a character is since it has the most potential to stunt any meta growth at all just by running into bad MUs. At best, the Dorf main could coast by on MU inexperience - but that's a temporary element. It's why I want to see more Dorfs, actually, so we can have meta development and see what is and isn't gimmicks.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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The top Ike players' results have been around the same, decent to mediocre, but they aren't really going to many tournaments. There really haven't been many tournaments where a top Ike player just flopped, they usually just placing middle of the road.

For instance, the last tournament I went to was True King in PA where I got 5th/~75, same as WaDi, but that was like a month ago on Jan. 28th. Ever since, I've been too busy working 60+ hours a week the last month and a half (part of the reason why I also wasn't able to really vote). Everyone is familiar with Ryo/Ryuga's situation.

Without any breakout tournaments, that placing is fine, though I think there wasn't really enough evidence for the tier drop.

Also, D is pretty much low tier.
 
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Eden Rocks

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Das Koopa Das Koopa Dorf's a tough sell, man. Hell, I was gonna post about Ike being a tough sell (why would you choose Ike at this point? Over other options), but Dorf takes the cake. The problem with Dorf's design, is that certain characters were deliberatey designed in such a way, that they wreck face in multi-way smashes (literally all of Dorf's moves kill lolz!), and therefore, the designers opted to give them clear disadvatages in the 1-on-1 game, to compensate. That is at least how I see it. That's why I am in favor of somebody else's thought, which was to change Dorf's moveset to whatever F-Zero villain that it was, and introduce a different Drof with a completely new moveset. Because, Dorf is such a cool character, but I don't see Sakurai adopting a different approach towards this design strategy.
 

UberMadman

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Yah fine, I commented on her as it pertains directly to the tier list, adding a brief word (admitting it was superfluous/poetic), and responded when that part of my comment was referenced. That's all that. As far as I'm concerned, that's a legit comment. If the mods want to run me off of here for whatever reason, then that's their politically motivated/territorial power play decision. This ain't my first rodeo, son...
If you're referring to the "warning" you received, it was because you were unecessarily hostile toward another member of the community because you disagreed with aspects of their tier list, and in the process broke a couple of rules outlined to you on the front page.
THE RULES

First, obey the Smashboards Global Rules. This subforum is intended to be the best discussion area Smashboards has to offer. Infractions for Spam, Flaming, Trolling, and Harassment are given out with less leniency here than anywhere else, and punishments tend to be roughly double.
  • Similarly, replies to a personal tier list are held to the same standard.
    • In particular, non-constructive criticism will be moderated harshly.
If you haven't already, please look over the front page closely.

But no, she is poison, sir. She's the worst thing to happen to this game by a mile. We all know it. Really, what explains her #1 placement/Zero's clear proclamation of the same, without any results to back it up in the least?
Because ZeRo has made hasty judgements before? He's even admitted to this fact himself on multiple occasions:



ZeRo is not the be-all, end-all in terms of opinions, and he has been proven to be overly optimistic or pessimistic in terms of certain characters in the past. If the only arguments you have to back up the argument that she is #1 are "look at her damage" and "ZeRo said she was the best", then your argument is flimsy.

By the way, here's a potential counterargument: Bayonetta is not #1 in this game because she doesn't have a consistent enough neutral game to achieve the spot. Her ridiculous damage output, recovery, and Witch Time are all aspects that allow her to punish predictable play no matter the character archetype, but she still is a character with sporadic frame data, light weight, and a big frame, meaning that players who are good enough to be able to adjust their playstyle on the fly and make reads will oftentimes be able to perform better against her. This, I feel, is the reason that she often gets far in majors but never wins: by the end of the tournament, she has to fight a bunch of players who are all exceptional at adapting to bad situations but possess dramatically different base playstyles, and to win, Bayonetta needs to get into their heads and capitalize on their mistakes, which is hard when she's fighting characters with much better frame data piloted by players who know when not to press a button.

Is this a perfect counterargument? No, of course not, there's tons of room for debate and I'm overlooking a lot of her positive characteristics, but the point is I used logic and anecdotal evidence to make my argument as opposed to just throwing around vapid buzzwords like "poison" and relying on an appeal to authority to substantiate my claim. If you disagree with it, I hope you will provide me with a solid counterargument based on your own opinion.


Oh, and one last thing... please cut out the "tough guy" act.

I've been slaying trolls for years. That smell, you smell, is the stench of caked troll blood on my scimitar, my cracked tower shield with Sakurai's face engraved on it, and on the bottom of my boots. I am a true Smasher. I'll not apologize for that. And I haven't flamed anybody. But I'll take the mod like a man. I get it. That's fine. So, that's that.
When you say things like this, you come off as someone who doesn't want to engage in discussion at all, nor do you make it appealing for anyone else to want to talk to you. You're not better or worse than anyone else here, so please don't act like it.
 
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OverTime

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I remember someone saying in the old thread that Ike was the perfect Mario secondary.

Obviously we don't have any hard evidence to back it up but does the theory stand still?
 

L9999

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Nah is a reference to someone in this case. I'd only use tags if you need to talk to somebody but nothing they said in any recent post is relevant for you to quote.

Going back to discussion, I do have to wonder if Corrin and Cloud really are the sole blame as to why Ike has been falling off so much recently.
:4corrinf: killed his playerbase directly but I think it has to do with :4myfriends:not being very appealing on his own to many people. He has a cool sword and hits super hard, but he isn't very mobile, he is huge and heavy so he can get pressured super hard at times, and his frame data is not stellar. And this was before :4cloud2:, and now that he exists as well as :4marth::4lucina:rise, Ike looks much worse in comparison for people looking for sword characters. Just my opinion.
 

TDK

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Re: the tier list itself, it seems mostly all voters are in agreement that she is a clear #1 (as well as Zero outright stating it recently), what argument is there against that?
Have you ever considered it's possible that people might be wrong?

ZeRo's said both Rosalina and Ryu are the best before. Doesn't mean he's right.

I don't think Bayonetta is the best in the game. I think at this point it's safe to say both Sheik and Diddy still outclass her. While a lot of her moves individually are broken, her ladder combos don't kill off the top with anything resembling consistency any more, which makes them excellent damage rackers but it means she lacks good ways to kill you. Here's the ways Bayonetta's primarily going to seal a stock past 120-130:

1) Witch Time.
2) Forward Throw at the Ledge at like 160 with Rage
3) Edgeguard
4) Back Air

Now out of these, if you're smart you won't throw out attacks willy-nilly when she's going to want a witch time (Would you spam attacks vs a Counter-happy Roy/Corrin? No? Then don't do it here.) Her Forward throw is actually really bad at killing, as it requires your opponent to be over 130 and you need Rage, along with good positioning. Back Air is well-telegraphed (If she's jumping at you facing away, she's going to back air you most of the time.), and Edge Guarding in part relies on you to put yourself in a position to be edge guarded. In short? She can't kill you.

Here's a few Videos that illustrate my point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4AUh_s_7c0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ3e-W7Lz-0

Using Tsu- because it's easy to see a character's killing issue when they're up against Lucario. Additionally, Bayonetta isn't some unbeatable monster. Her matchups aren't getting better, they're actually getting worse with time. Pre-Patch her only real bad matchup was Diddy, now a lot of Zoners/Grapplers have at least a decent shot against her because she's vulnerable to grabs (Excellent Combo weight + Grabs not being able to be Witch Timed) and pretty easy to zone out. I'd say right now, Diddy, Luigi, and Ness beat her as well as Rosalina, Toon Link, Link, Lucas, Sheik, and maybe Villager having an even matchup vs her. The Ding Dong/(PK) Hoo Hah/Checkmate/Beep Boop/Whatever Bowser's is called crew don't fare too badly against her either (Though they probably lose the matchup, X Throw Up Air is enough to keep them in it, as Bayo is light and easy to combo).


This isn't the making of a broken character. This isn't even the making of the best character.

Want to prove me wrong? Either start winning tournaments with her or Genetically fuse Salem/Zack together.
 
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