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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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|RK|

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Well, i've pretty much explained on a very global scale what there is to know about Doc ( This character probably has among the deepest mixup game & possibility, so much starts & ends combos, so much tools capable of doing wonders in specific situations, but that's mostly details that, while good, aren't mandatory ). I still believe that Doc is a tad better than Kirby because of a more complete neutral, with a subpar but existant long range game in Pills, the best anti zoning tool in the game ( If you do not know, Doc's Cape SH AC ) , and all around great frame data ( Much like Kirby actually, these charas share a lot of their pros & cons ) , an advantage state that's a tad better ( Stronger raw damage output, damage output on consistent combos on everyone is a bit higher, a much easier time killing on a consistent level ), and a disadvantage that's a bit worse but not too bad either.
However, you do bring up fair points about Kirby & Doc. As someone who's thought process leans towards grounded-ness & consitency, i'm incline to go with Doc, but i do respect your opinion and the points you bring, so I'll just agree to disagree.

Edit: Care to explain what makes Kirby v Mario decent? I do not really see it. Ally acted overly respectful of Kirby while falling for some tricks that he was unaware of, such as Kirby's low amount of landing lag on a lot of moves, which allowed Komota to sneak in some nasty hits. That aside, i do not really see how Mario, who outrewards, can outbutton in the aerial part, and kill a bit more efficiently than Kirby, would struggle that much with Kirby.

Edit 2: Don't hesitate to use a bit of Doc to be these elements listed by Gu*do & I in practice, even if of course, you do not main the character. It always help visualizing how some tools fare in practice, what the character ends up doing well & not doing well. This is what i attempt to do with the majority of the cast so tha my opinion on the different characters of the cast is more complete & objective, because objectivity relates to the character's capabilities on the Batllefield, and the best way to see this is to either watch or practice.
All of this seems fair, so I'll respond to the Kirby vs Mario bit :)

Mario doesn't do anything particularly extreme to Kirby. He can be combod just fine past a certain percent (when he's in enough hitstun to ignore nair), and Kirby is pretty good at stuffing approaches from Mario. Utilt and bair work great, multijumps help avoid landing on top of Mario, Kirby can trap Mario at ledge reasonably well with just jab thanks to his limited range, Kirby doesn't get combo'd too hard to my knowledge (I remember Dunnobro said otherwise, but IDK anything about that), Kirby's tilts keep Mario out super well, particularly forward tilt (but utilt is amazing for jump ins)... Really, the main issue here is that Mario is way more mobile than Kirby. I like to play the Mario MU (and the Sonic MU, tbh) by constantly walking away from him and punishing his attempts to get in, and mixing up grabs. When he's at the ledge, I keep him there as long as possible. But Mario doesn't really do anything too special to Kirby, IMO.

I know Dark Wizzy gives the MU the same ratio I would - 55:45. The MU isn't too troublesome, IMO.
 

HoSmash4

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'sheik can't kill' is actually dependent on the character she fights

I.e Sheik finds killing Mario or sonic a lot harder than killing Mewtwo or falcon
 
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HoSmash4

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What is it that makes a character hard for Sheik to kill? Are there specifics? Is there a trend?
1. Fthrow BF is more effective on different characters. Eg it's strong vs large hurtboxes e.g. Corrin, Marth and Ike. Fthrow BF at kill % is non existent vs greninja
2. If uthrow uair works
3. Whether you can edgeguard their recovery.
Sonic up b is impossible to edgeguard, Mario up b is hard to intercept (not impossible but bad risk reward)
4. The opponents play style. Shielding a lot as an approach when ftilt uair kills is very powerful as it Blocks: nair, ftilt needles. Loses to dash grab but this can be easily baited if they get obvious. In contrast approaches with jump ins and whiffed approaching aerials are easy to punish.
5. Weight matters but abusable disadvantage matters more.
6. Good aerial mobility + good airdodge makes it a lot harder to punish landings with sheik e.g vs Rosa as sheik doesn't have any hitboxes that are large and low commitment (best bet is reactionary bairs)
7. How easy it is for them to get off the ledge (RIP Bowser, DK, pika excels at getting off the ledge due to quick attack, small hurtbox and goodledge frame data)
 
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TheGoodGuava

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If Sheik lands late hit nair ~90 you're probably going to die. Whether she chooses to use nair > needles > BF, nair > fair > needles > BF, or just nair > BF depends on your stage position, your fall speed, and your %
She also has tipper d tilt, fthrow/uthrow 50/50s, ftilt, jab mixups, and her amazing edgeguarding to **** you other with
 

~ Gheb ~

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I think the whole concept of a character being "good" or "bad" at killing is somewhat misleading. Not that it's not important but I find that it'd be better to look at it in terms of being able to fulfill the game's win condition because that also includes things like avoiding getting killed, avoiding taking damage and dominating neutral - Sheik is just incredibly good at all three of those things so while she may not be particularly good at killing she's still better at fulfilling the win condition than just about every other character in the game. For all we know, she might just be the best character if we add it all together.

Then you have characters like DK who are obviously really good at killing but are still bad characters [this tierlist completely overrates him btw] because they suck at fulfilling their win condition all the same.

:059:
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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You still cant say she is the best character when she has a huge flaw on her kills. Half of this meta development stuff is people stil being scared of pre sheik rather than post sheik. In fact her kill power is so problematic, it leads her to go even with DK and Bowser, and Ryu. Who can and will kill her usually before she kills them, dont even get me started about Mewtwo.

Anyways, that guy in a few posts above was right, this has gone on long enough. So thats why Im ending it here, also you use Sheik, so thank you for your BIAS sir, good day. And good riddens.
You're grasping at straws when there is nothing to grasp for. All me using Sheik means is that I know the facts about this character, because as I said we don't care what position on the tier list you think Sheik is. I don't care if you think she's 1st or 8th, you are just as welcome to disagree with me as I am to disagree with you, but for all your complaints about people being biased towards Sheik for presenting the facts about her, something several Sheik mains have done, you have shown to completely ignore them and show your own bias against her with nothing to back up you claims other than screaming "you're wrong!!! just look at X character, they clearly beat sheik!!" and no actual evidence.

Also, there's no way that Mewtwo beats Sheik when she wins neutral much more often and has a pre-patch-esque 50/50 out of up throw. The ability to kill Mewtwo from a grab will always prevent it from being anything better than even for Mewtwo.
 

ARGHETH

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Yes, it is, no matter what you tell me. Mewtwo will always win against Sheik, its not even. Aba just needs to grasp a hold of Mr. R or Void's play style and learn to exploit it better.
Explaining what you mean by this would be nice, because as it is this is an essentially useless statement.
 

sleepy_Nex

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MERPIS MERPIS

Would you be so kind to explain why Mewtwo wins the mu?

I Personally think Palu belongs at the very bottom of D-Tier but sadly there is no one to prove it atm.
 
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Nemesis561

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Problem is nobody stepped up for Corrin really and he moved up.

Why on earth would we have faith that he's going to move down next tier list, when the criteria for him moving down even one or two spots was already reached and then the opposite happened?

Like others have said: zero logic being applied here. Should not have been allowed to happen. People should have been forced to explain why a character's who's results are going slightly down should get to move up multiple spots. Particularly with one character (Marth) leapfrogging over them, meaning they moved up more spots then people realize at first glance.

An explanation post of "we feel his potential is very high" is not going to cut it. The explanation post needs to say "we screwed up with him, he should not be that high. Quirk of how the vote values were applied and much larger variance for those around him along with people putting too much weight on potential. Our bad."
Nobody needs to do any of this. I think you might be taking these tier list placements (specifically Corrin) a bit too personal. A lot of the panel chose to believe in Corrins potential and theory, and that her results would be better if her best player was traveling. Do I fully agree with this? Nope but I can see their point of view too.

And as time passes if she still isn't getting results, obviously she's going to drop (example: Yoshi)
 
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Fenny

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Maybe try reading it again...?
Yes, it is, no matter what you tell me. Mewtwo will always win against Sheik, its not even.
Literally nothing in it other than 'Mewtwo should always win because I say so'

Where's the explanation? Why should he? What tools does he have that should make it an always-winning MU?

That's a post with substance. Otherwise it's just a statement that might as well be ignored.
 

Nemesis561

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Yes, it is, no matter what you tell me. Mewtwo will always win against Sheik, its not even. Aba just needs to grasp a hold of Mr. R or Void's play style and learn to exploit it better.
I don't think you will fare well here, this is a discussion page and being so stubborn doesn't help progress anything.
 

Nah

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Corrin has a kill throw at higher percents so you're pinned (lol) between two choices of not shield and get kicked to the blast zone or shield get grabbed then head butted to the blast zone by Arceus. Also pin isn't as free as it looks, you can kick away and half of the roster can't punish you yes, but you give up valuable stage control and if you use pin to much as a attack it gets stale real quick.

...
For those who are asking yes I think Corrin is too high at the moment but hes no mid tier IMO and there is much more to :4corrin: than spamming DL/IP because it only can get you so far until someone constantly shields it and takes free stage control thanks to the mindless thought of "Oh I kicked back they can't punish me so lets do it again!"
not sure what's with the sudden change in opinion about Dragon Lunge/Instant Pin, the other day you literally said it "single-handedly shuts down some MUs" and was "one of the most broken moves in the game"

but hey if people are starting to get that the move's simply just good and not some completely ridiculous auto-win button, I'm fine

Frihetsanka Frihetsanka we could wait for results and stuff yeah, but while we're waiting for that to happen, people could try to explain why (from a more theoretical perspective I guess) what warrants the character being in high tier at all. Lotta people seem to feel that Corrin is a solid high tier, and I'd think that they'd have their reasons for it. All I've been asking for now for months now is for a proper explanation/discussion on it. I don't really see what inspires such persistent optimism in a lot of people about the character and would like to try and see what they're seeing, and then maybe see if what they're seeing it legit or what.

y'know, unless you guys would rather do another round of The Great Marcina War or Pika Uthrow-->Thunder or complaining about Bayo again
 

MERPIS

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Literally nothing in it other than 'Mewtwo should always win because I say so'

Where's the explanation? Why should he? What tools does he have that should make it an always-winning MU?

That's a post with substance. Otherwise it's just a statement that might as well be ignored.
But nobody does, everyone keeps fueling the fire. Taking the flamebait, whatever. I tried to close this conversation, but flamed people just keep replying.
I don't think you will fare well here, this is a discussion page and being so stubborn doesn't help progress anything.
I suppose not, nobody on this "website" seems to be open about anything, that includes me.

MERPIS MERPIS

Would you be so kind to explain why Mewtwo wins the mu?

I Personally think Palu belongs at the very bottom of D-Tier but sadly there is no one to prove it atm.
OK I shall. It's simple, Mewtwo has more open kill tools than Sheik. Sure she can combo mewtwo to hell. Like most top tiers, but she does fall apart when it comes to killing, if Mewtwo survives until later percents ~120% or so, then Sheik better not mess up or she is dead even at percents like 90%. Mewtwo also outranges Sheik on certain moves, dtilt beats most of her moves, and being a fast faller, Sheik also gets combo'd rather hard despite nair. Mewtwo's fair is also pretty much sheik's fair on steroids. And yes, Needles can keep certain characters out, but so does shadow ball. Sole reason why M2 wins against DK and Bows' rather than going straight even. And sure, Sheik may have uthrow to uair, but its not much compered to a straight up near un-di-able Uthrow. And a good bthrow than can be DI'd but it still kills well.

If sheik can play well, she wins. As mewtwo is light enough to kill at 110% from Uthrow Uair, but Mewtwo's combos, while they're not nearly as long, they hit MUCH heavier. As for Sheik's nair Jank. Mewtwo has it as well, hell his follows rolls much better due to airspeed + the duration of it.

Mewtwo can also drift out of some of Sheik's combos I think due to his air mobility, combined with his light weight and weird fall speed. Sheik cannot really out camp Mewtwo due to his reflector and shadowball going through them, but needles ARE faster, so thats a thing to note.

Just to wrap up. A small thing to note about Mewtwo being able to keep up if he gets combo'd hard.

Sheik: ftilt-ftilt-ftilt-fair-nair. Silly little combo,28% damage but it puts the foe in a bad spot.
Mewtwo: dtilt-fair-fair. 31% damage.
 
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Luco

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I can accept that in theory Sheik is the best character in the game - what I do take some issue with though is that we're talking about her potential, and the ability for two players to merge their playstyles into one. Which I guess is feasable? Maybe? It's difficult to know exactly if the thought processes that mesh together to form a playstyle easily transition / are compatible with the thought processes that form another aspect of gameplay (you'd assume they would be, but it feels strange to me that top players don't just 'pick it up'). It's also possible to talk about this process with other characters.

But in terms of a tier list we're looking at snapshots of a meta. I'll be honest with you, I'm in the perhaps stand-alone or small crowd of people who are thinking "hey what if Cloud's secretly the best?" - Gheb will call me out on this as a kneejerk reaction and tell me it absolutely isn't the same (and he would be right, it isn't), but the chills it gives me to look at recent results like these take me back to MK days:

2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga (February 11th) (Southern California) (331 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st: ZeRo (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Tweek (Cloud)
3rd: komorikiri (Cloud, Sonic)
4th: Ned (Cloud)

Midwest Mayhem 7 (February 4th) (Midwest) (155 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: Ned (Cloud)

2GGC: GENESIS Saga (January 14th) (Southern California) (466 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st: ZeRo (Diddy Kong, Sheik)
2nd: Komorikiri (Cloud, Sonic)
3rd: VoiD (Sheik)
4th: Tweek (Cloud)
5th: MKLeo (Marth, Cloud)

There's a few more like Umebura Tokaigi but I'm not sure in what capacity Nairo's Cloud actually played a role (I've been without internet for 2 months guys :p ). Cloud's prevalence as a secondary may not lead him to be what we define as 'solo viable' but with the absolute mish-mash of characters we normally see at top level, perhaps the fact he's seen even as a worthy secondary, the fact that he's still this imperative to players' viability makes me think he might actually be the most consistent, might be the character where practically his flaws don't matter as much as we give them credit for, might be the best overall in the game to help you make it through bracket?

It might be a fringe opinion, but yeah.

Bayonetta, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud. The scores between them all are ridiculously close (for a reason!), and everyone has an opinion here, or an opinion there on the best of them. At the end of the day they're all very good, and I would hazard to say as a pessimist that those four will soon make 60% or more of the cast effectively unviable.

Welcome to 2017. Hopefully it's not all bad, right?
 
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pichuplayer

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Ok from what I've seen from responses on the new tier list both on here and on Reddit through looking into it I've seen a lot of people is one complaint: Its about Ness' position and on the smash wiki it states . "As such, it is debatable of whether or not Ness will continue to stay in the middle tier, or if he will drop again into low tier. Ness's spot is a high topic of debate as some smashers claim he deserves to be lower than this, or even lower than his fellow EarthBound representative Lucas." so on a Reddit's DDT on /r/smashbros I'm asking people what they think of the matter I'll report back tomorrow on the responses
 

Frihetsanka

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It all boils down to "somebody has to be bottom tier". Who's worse than :4ganondorf:? There's :4jigglypuff:, :4zelda: and... um, maaaaybe :4falco::4dedede: :4bowserjr:but probably not. *shrugs*
I disagree. Someone has to be the worst, yes, but there doesn't have to be a dedicated "bottom" tier, just as there doesn't have to be an "SS"-tier. Compare the MU charts of Brawl and Melee bottom tiers to the "bottom" tiers of Smash 4. The worst characters in Smash 4 have pretty bad MU charts, sure, but they're still better than Brawl bottom tiers, or Melee bottom tiers.

In general, -3 MUs are much less common in Smash 4 compared to the previous games. Being a bottom 5 character is better than ever before.
 

Luco

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Ok from what I've seen from responses on the new tier list both on here and on Reddit through looking into it I've seen a lot of people is one complaint: Its about Ness' position and on the smash wiki it states . "As such, it is debatable of whether or not Ness will continue to stay in the middle tier, or if he will drop again into low tier. Ness's spot is a high topic of debate as some smashers claim he deserves to be lower than this, or even lower than his fellow EarthBound representative Lucas." so on a Reddit's DDT on /r/smashbros I'm asking people what they think of the matter I'll report back tomorrow on the responses
Ness' position is tragic, but I doubt he'll ever fall into low tier, he's almost in an identical position to Luigi and they even share similar strengths / weaknesses. Without his rep he'll look worse than he really is, but I think given some time someone will come along and be the Elegant for this character.

He might deserve to be worse than Lucas, but I'm of the opinion Lucas will be steadily rising as time goes on so it doesn't mean much. :p
 

pichuplayer

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Ness' position is tragic, but I doubt he'll ever fall into low tier, he's almost in an identical position to Luigi and they even share similar strengths / weaknesses. Without his rep he'll look worse than he really is, but I think given some time someone will come along and be the Elegant for this character.

He might deserve to be worse than Lucas, but I'm of the opinion Lucas will be steadily rising as time goes on so it doesn't mean much. :p
I know it just suprised me when I saw this the other day and I wanted to see people's responses to the statement so far its pretty mixed
 

HoSmash4

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Ness has a horrid matchup chart in theory but because his normals are so strong, he can still get far through player matchups.

A character with those aerials and that backthrow will never be low tier. Period.
 
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verbatim

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One move doesn't make a character though. As someone else said, Corrin is an average character with average stats but two stupidly good moves. Even before Corrin was patched, nobody even gave consideration to this character breaking top ten so I don't see what all has exactly changed with a metagame to suddenly have people insist on "hidden potential."
First impressions aren't always accurate. People said Cloud was Little Mac with a Sword/had no recovery/low tier when he came out in 1.1.4. People thought that Roy was going to be really good. Ryu was hyped, dissapointed, and now recently is gaining ground again.

I feel confident saying that Corrin would be #5(ish) if she was her 1.1.4 version. People mainly talk about the counter but the faster movement speed + a up air that kills at 80 were rediculous and only really overshadowed because of 1.1.4 Bayonetta.

Speaking of 1.1.4 Bayonetta, she didn't win any majors, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't top tier.
 
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Heracr055

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I don't think anyone would dispute pre-nerf Bayo as anything less than top.
Corrin's a very interesting case. As a Ryu main I'm terrified of her multi-hit dash&dair with such low cooldown breaking FA, and her tools that out-poke Ryu's options. She has excellent aerials that are excellent at chaining into eachother at low percents and setting up for juggle situations/poor aerial position at later percents. I'm really curious to see where Cosmos and friends can do with her down the line. Anyone curious about the Ryu/Corrin MU should watch the Trela vs Cosmos WF and GF sets at Shockwave; good stuff!
 

williamsga555

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I think a lot of these claims against Sheik's abilities to close out a stock are confusing killing late with struggling to kill. These are not one and the same things, and it's very important to understand what the difference is.

If Sheik gets you to, say, 120% (chosen somewhat arbitrarily), she will finish your stock very easily. She has numerous quick, safe confirms that she can pick from out of neutral.

If, say, D3 gets you to 120%, he will still struggle to finish your stock, as he lacks any semblance of a quick or safe confirm out of neutral. (if you want a more relevant example, see: Duck Hunt, PAC-MAN, or even Bayonetta at times, seriously)


Well okay, but why should we consider someone who kills late to be good at killing? Isn't that still a deep flaw that can be exploited, thanks to rage?

It depends. If you have a character that kills late, but has an efficient and/or safe means of getting the opponent to those percents, then this flaw of theirs matters a whole lot less. Take Diddy, for example. He has safe, efficient damage conversions all the way up to kill percents, at which point he has safe, efficient kill confirms. His inability to close out stocks sooner doesn't really matter much when he's only taken about 40% in that same timespan.

Sheik is in a similar boat. These two characters can quickly, and safely, fulfill their win conditions (get the opponent to x%, then use appropriate kill confirm y), even if x% is a higher value than it would be for other characters. Saying that they struggle to kill implies that it's a legitimate uphill battle to seal the stock, which seems wrong, given that they have confirms off of reasonable neutral options and efficient means of accessing those options.

Now don't get me wrong: Sheik's hard to play, and learning her conversions is difficult as well, but being difficult is not the same as struggling, from a character perspective.
 

my_T

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Ness has a horrid matchup chart in theory but because his normals are so strong, he can still get far through player matchups.

A character with those aerials and that backthrow will never be low tier. Period.
I completely agree with your first statement. Ness is too reliant on player vs player interactions in most match-ups. He's weak when it comes to controlling the flow of the match. He has nothing like needles or spin dash/charge that demand respect in neutral. As a result, winning neutral with him often requires a guess or for the opponent to **** up.

This is not a good thing. If a character is heavily reliant on the player(s) then that just means the character isn't good. IMO Ness is low mid tier. If players would just play the match-up the way Zero plays it then Ness will certainly fall further. People are going to play the way they want tho
 

Nah

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I feel confident saying that Corrin would be #5(ish) if she was her 1.1.4 version. People mainly talk about the counter but the faster movement speed + a up air that kills at 80 were rediculous and only really overshadowed because of 1.1.4 Bayonetta.
1.14 Corrin doesn't seem much different from current Corrin to me. The mobility changes were very slight decreases to what was still not good mobility specs. Uair changes were 10%-->9% but with a KBG change from 94-->99, making it kill only slightly later than it does now, which is not near 80% under normal circumstances. You want an Uair that kills around 80% under normal conditions, try Robin's on lightweights. I don't remember the slight damage decreases to Nair/Fair/DFS waterball being that much of a huge deal either. The only major change was to Counter Surge, which was just them making it not kill people at obscene %s.

So I'm not seeing how pre-patch Corn is comparable to monsters like :4diddy::4cloud::4sheik: etc
 

mountain_tiger

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One thing I've found with Ness is that a lot of folks tend to fear him a lot more than is actually warranted, especially with respect to his BThrow.

On the one hand, yes it's a powerful kill throw and a great tool to have in your arsenal. But it doesn't really 'stand out from the crowd' nearly as much as it's made out to. Many characters have kill confirms from grabs at percents lower than what would be required for Ness BThrow to kill you, and several characters have throws that kill only slightly later than Ness BThrow does. Further to that, Ness' grab range is appalling, so "don't get grabbed" is actually an entirely feasible game plan - something which wouldn't be so easy against, for example, Bowser.

It's really only his air prowess that keeps him in the game at all.
 

Eden Rocks

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In my view, it is extremely obvious that Bayonetta is the best character in the game (perhaps except for Diddy), due to all of the obscene stuff she can do, that no other character is even close to having access to.

We all, to a man, are aware of this. Many of us are disgusted by it.

I assert that the camp that insists otherwise is, sadly, assuming the position for the sole purposes of fostering debate and for the sake of being a contrarian. This is a prevailing agenda in the Smash 4 community (and I'm sure within many other communities as well, across all fields, everywhere), and it's really just too bad.

I'm not going to pretend that I can hang with a professional-level technical discussion, in terms of mechanics and gameplay-based strategy, but I can speak with authority that I do understand the psychology and nature of the community itself to the point where I can offer this valid point. And, for what it's worth, I've been a smasher since day 1, and have put some thousands of hours into online play on the Wii U.

Witch Time is poison (for the player being bopped, as well as for the viewer). The 0-death strings (or close enough) are poison. It shatters the very heart of the concept of this game, that a character has the potential to be able to disable their opponent (to the point of a K.O.!) to such a degree. Even the character design itself is pure poison (a sexed-up vixen gyrating all over the place in this game - I know that really isn't relevant, but man do I hate me some Bayo).

Well, that's my take. I know everybody seems to be talking about Sheik and her potential to finish stocks, but I cannot contribute to that, and I find it really boring, and am lost as to what the actual point of debate is.
 

|RK|

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Kirby doesnt do well vs any of the mario bros
He loses, but not by much. IDK - personally, I'm even improving my opinion on the Luigi MU after learning a few things. Nothing is horrible for him in either MU.
 

Nu~

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EquinoXYZ
He loses, but not by much. IDK - personally, I'm even improving my opinion on the Luigi MU after learning a few things. Nothing is horrible for him in either MU.
But how do both matchups change after Kirby gets each of their respective kirby hats?

I'd imagine Luigi's fireballs do wonders
 
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