Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Eden Rocks]

@UberMadman hey, thanks for playing.

So, re: my comment about Joe's tier list: nobody is going to do this (or even ask him, as he may never even see that comment nor even give a care at all), but I will make a side bet with you, whether or not Joe would crack a smile, or become offended, by my light-hearted jab on his placement of Sonic. I composed that comment specifically, estimating that I understand his psychology enough through watching him on stream and play in matches over the years, combined with his having read and liked my defense of his posts in this thread, where I displayed to him directly the level of skill I am operating with. I could be wrong. But I'll take that bet. If he is genuinely offended, I will certainly apologize. But I was just breaking balls, which really should be obvious to everybody. People like you are just playing up this nonsense as some sort of a method of "gatekeeping", because you may be offended that somebody could just roll in, from out of the woods, and start interacting with the most prominent member of your community that I can see. This is my read on all of that (not that he gives a crap about any of this!). I didn't flame him. That's ridiculous. You guys are way too serious and defensive of your perceived territories. And no, that's not a flame, either. That is a strategical analysis.

Your argument against Bayo being #1 is excellent, and I do not possess the ability to combat it in any way, in the same context. I am in no way a professional player. I happen to categorize myself somewhere in the top 1-5% of casual players, but I prefer to play FG 2v2s anyway. That is my speciality. The argument I make, is more of an esoteric one, which is designed to expand the community's perception of itself as a whole, and introduce different elements to this discussion. I do tread lightly, as I respect the pro-level player's positions on this matter. Her being "poison" has nothing to do with it...as was clealy expressed...nor is Zero's input a lynchpin of my position, and is not even worth dissecting on either side. But, your uasge of both those points to discredit me is a great disservice to you. My contributions are purely psychological, as that is my strength (over tech skill), and of course speculative, but I believe them to be valuable, interesting, and worth talking about.

So, that leaves my beautifully-written imagery of the victorious troll-slaying warrior...if you didn't enjoy that, well, that's on you. You are miscategorizing me in the extreme. It's not that I think of myself as a "special snowflake"...it's that I am a piercingly shining star, that obliterates all of the special snowflakes floating delicately in the air in a square 100-mile radius, in this society. I'm *that guy*. And, I *just wrote that bit, on the spot, specifically for this thread*. So, get your notepad out, and take this limited time you have conversing with me, and level yourself up at max speed.

 

[Eden Rocks]

TDK ok, how's this?

Between the two of you, you have convinced me (who claims to be a world-class writer and performer!) that you are correct. Your arguments are so well-thought-out and phrased, and this is your turf, and I can see no counter-argument. She certainly is the #1 character in the context that I play the game, and I hate her so profoundly that she may as well be as the video-game incarnate of Russel Brand, but, from the perspective oan objective, top-level player, the placing is wack. So, everybody must be wrong! And I will even adopt your position on this matter. Bayo should not be #1, and is ranked incorrectly, and it is pretty clear.

So...why have they done it? What is your follow-up? Tell me why? Or, maybe, I can help with this part.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

They do it due to their own bias, zero is one of the best players, practicing day and night and winning just about every tourney he's entered. Unfortunately just because a player is good doesn't mean they're the best to gauge how good or bad a character is. As has been mentioned previously he's admitted he's wrong on multiple occasions.
There's a reason multiple people vote on the tier list, it's because one player's experience can differ wildly from another player's experience. Mainly because of how they play versus how an opponent plays. Each player has their own playing style and each one gives a different experience.

 

[Eden Rocks]

Right, so I'm getting nothing but crickets! You guys do have no follow-up, as predicted. That's fine. Your work on compiling the tech data was excellent. Allow me to take it from here.

You see, the thing is, Zero has been so consistently dominant, for so long, that he practically controls the metagame for the entire game. He is the platinum standard, the evil empire; cats take a set here and there, but they know, in the back of their heads, that they'll have to deal with him the next time, and they dread that. The only exceptions (point one out if I missed it) are, most notably Ally, who had a solid run against him, and more recently, Kameme. I'd say it seems like those are the only two cats that consistently would *get up* to face Zero, as opposed to subconsciously admitting defeat beforehand (I'm being poetic, and looking over a lot of guys that do their best, but just go with me hore). The issue with those guys is, that they are much more inconsistent while facing their other opponents, and are capable to drop a set in a huge upset at literally any moment (Zero hardly ever suffers this fate, except if he SD'S TWICE LOLZ AGAINST A DOG AND A DUCK AND A CAN??, or our man Joe plays his best while his guard is down yay!!)

So, what does this mean? It actually means that Zero's tier list (at least as far as the top-high tiers, those being the most commonly found characters) *is the tier list*. Such is the level of his dominance. Now, the other members of the community (voters in this case) will not allow themselves to just bow down and roll over and not let their voices be heard, so that will cause some shake-up, adjusting for the mean, the farther up you go. *However*, nobody is going to put themselves out there to challenge the most notable #1 placement of his (that he proclaims), which is Bayo. Nobody wants to be the guy to really put his voice out there in the community, to take up that mantle (I'm sure there are exceptions). Therefore, they all just accept Zero's choice at the #1 slot by default, and they mostly all hate Bayo anyway, and...

Voila!

There is your comprehensive explanation for her being #1 on this list, backed by the tech data and super-solid theory supplied in this very thread by @UberMadman , TDK , and others.

Shout-outs to Smashers such as Joe, who I will have to assume don't GAF about any of those sort of politics, and just do what they want, and so this analysis will not apply to. Also, I will add that if Zero was *really* being honest with himself, he would put Diddy at #1. But, it's better for his brand if he downplays Diddy's true ability a little.

IT'S EDEN ROCKS, KIDS!

 

[|RK|]

All of a sudden, I really wish we were talking about uthrow Thunder instead of conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories that, I might add, are debunked by the fact that no one agreed with ZeRo placing either Ryu or Rosalina as best in the game. Or tbh, many of his other placements.

(As an aside - strong writing tends to use simple language. Easier to relate to.)

 

[TDK]

TDK ok, how's this?

Between the two of you, you have convinced me (who claims to be a world-class writer and performer!) that you are correct. Your arguments are so well-thought-out and phrased, and this is your turf, and I can see no counter-argument. She certainly is the #1 character in the context that I play the game, and I hate her so profoundly that she may as well be as the video-game incarnate of Russel Brand, but, from the perspective oan objective, top-level player, the placing is wack. So, everybody must be wrong! And I will even adopt your position on this matter. Bayo should not be #1, and is ranked incorrectly, and it is pretty clear.

So...why have they done it? What is your follow-up? Tell me why? Or, maybe, I can help with this part.

I can't speak for every player, but there seems to be this rift between the people in this thread and top players.

Since we aren't top players, we're instead relegated to analyzing sets and results. What could Tsu- have done differently? Why do people keep short hopping at Ally when they're at kill %? Why didn't Dabuz start with Rosalina? These are observations we, as spectators and analysts can make as we aren't actually playing. We're not feeling the stress, we don't have a roaring crowd chanting for us to lose, we don't have to worry that the next mistake might cost us the tournament.

This is probably why there's a disconnect in opinions on characters between the top players and us. Bayonetta feels like hell to fight against, because she forces you to play this slow, patient, do-i-attack-now-oh-god-please-don't-witch-time-me game where you do your best to zone her, bait out witch times, try to avoid her ridiculous combo game, don't get edge guarded, constantly waiting for the right opportunity while she's flying anywhere with her ludicrous burst mobility, racking up huge damage on you, recovering for free, and just generally playing her own game. Because of Witch Time, Bayonetta is extroardinarily stressful to play against. Since we're over here analyzing, we don't really feel the stress that top players do when they're playing.

I'm not saying one of these is inherently better than the other, but this is my guess for the reason top players tend to place Bayonetta so high. She's one of the most, if not the most stressful character in the game to fight for most people, regardless of matchup.

Also, @Zelder :

Spoiler

Note: I didn't actually test this. Theory is, Lucina is shorter, so her hurtbox is smaller.

 

[|RK|]

Also, @Zelder :

Spoiler

View attachment 126747
Note: I didn't actually test this. Theory is, Lucina is shorter, so her hurtbox is smaller.

Speaking of Lucina, other differences include her jab reaching lower (spaced well it hits a crouching Kirby - Marth's doesn't) and she keeps momentum from her walk - that's what actually makes some of her sliding tricks possible. Just fun facts some of y'all probably knew already.

 

[Eden Rocks]

All of a sudden, I really wish we were talking about uthrow Thunder instead of conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories that, I might add, are debunked by the fact that no one agreed with ZeRo placing either Ryu or Rosalina as best in the game. Or tbh, many of his other placements.

(As an aside - strong writing tends to use simple language. Easier to relate to.)

Conspiracy theories...similar in essence to theorycraft in general, as it pertains to Smash??

Re: simplified nomenclature: well, you see, kids, as the context of this community is extreme high-level play and the accompanying analysis, based on intelligence and reflexes (but primarily intelligence), there is a built-in reverance for equally high-level written compositions. So, I like my writing style, here.

But, here is a poem for you, composed in the spirit of your request:

There once was a girl named Viky
She looked on the mic so pretty!
She wondered why Bayo's placing was so sticky!
But, I couldn't tell you why she can't pronounce Zinoto!

TDK well, being a person that has gambled literally thousands of dollars every single day for extended periods of time, and having survived death once already besides that, I'll insist I can offer up a point of view that has dealt with some degree of stess, my man.

Crashing. Thanks for the convos

 

[NairWizard]

@UberMadman

So, that leaves my beautifully-written imagery of the victorious troll-slaying warrior...if you didn't enjoy that, well, that's on you. You are miscategorizing me in the extreme. It's not that I think of myself as a "special snowflake"...it's that I am a piercingly shining star, that obliterates all of the special snowflakes floating delicately in the air in a square 100-mile radius, in this society. I'm *that guy*. And, I *just wrote that bit, on the spot, specifically for this thread*. So, get your notepad out, and take this limited time you have conversing with me, and level yourself up at max speed.

I never thought I'd say this, but God, I miss RadicalLarry.

 

[PK Gaming]

Conspiracy theories...similar in essence to theorycraft in general, as it pertains to Smash??

No

Conspiracy theories are by definition, founded on unsubstantiated facts. Theorycrafting pertains to analyzing and discussing game mechanics. The former is always detrimental to good discussions.

 

[L9999]

Eden Rocks Please do us a favor and stop wasting everyone's time with your unreadable walls of text. So far the only things you have done is bring pointless points about Bayonetta and pissing on top players, commentators and people in this thread.

 

[verbatim]

I never thought I'd say this, but God, I miss RadicalLarry.

It's kind of interesting to note that he dissapeared pretty much right before Frostbite.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't be so gloom on Link's future prospects now that T didn't do so well in what could be his only American showing. Scizor from west coast is also supposed to be really good, and will probably have a lot more chances to prove himself on the big screen than T.

 

[L9999]

It's kind of interesting to note that he dissapeared pretty much right before Frostbite.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't be so gloom on Link's future prospects now that T didn't do so well in what could be his only American showing. Scizor from west coast is also supposed to be really good, and will probably have a lot more chances to prove himself on the big screen than T.

Being fair, T got a terrible bracket. Ally and Seagull were guaranteed losses.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I never thought I'd say this, but God, I miss RadicalLarry.

So let me explain the reasons as to why Link is Top 25, it's really legit!

Joking aside, any concrete thoughts on Wii Fit Trainer right now? Her meta is kind of vague right now, with little to no representation in tournaments, with John Number being one of the only active wii fit trainers out there, but doesn't really travel outsise of his locals.
I really do not have much to say about Wii Fit. She's kind of just awkward: Decent zoning abilities but very different to the rest of the zoners out there & heavily based on ledge play, awkward & poor starters with massive damage output, decent disadvantage but nothing exceptional. Awkward CQC as well, with weird hitboxes on a lot of moves.

 

[Rizen]

To me is kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. The problem with that is you need something over the top tier opponents to compete. For example, is obviously worse than but if he can win 'his game' he can win the match. His game is that of a grappler. The only thing WFT has that's special is her planking; ball, sun saturation, great recovery, Uair and spikes make her very hard to force off the ledge. That's significant but becomes less effective with MU experience. All things considered she's undertuned and falls short. She doesn't have great counter pick potential because this either.
Like all SSB4 MUs you need to know it and can't coast by simply because she's a "bad character". She won't influence the metagame much or become popular in the foreseeable future however.

 

[HoSmash4]

My personal tier list (Not ordered)
Stronger Top tiers
Weaker Top Tiers
High Tiers
High Mid Tiers
Low Mid Tiers:
Low tier but have real upset potential
More or less irrelevant at top level:

Reasoning:
Top Tier: Every character in the top tier bracket has the potential to win a supermajor given the right bracket. The majority of the characters have placed 1st or 2nd at a Supermajor sans Sheik/Bayonetta/Cloud who otherwise display remarkable consistancy on every single level that elevate them above the rest. I feel all top tiers have one or two very troublesome matchups but player skill will carry you to the top with only a few exceptions. The stronger top tiers have more consistent results, better matchups in theory although not enough to make them a major roadblock for the rest.
High Tier: All have potential to do extremely well at supermajors, including appearances at the top 8 stage. However they have a worse matchup chart than the top tiers overall, and in general fewer strong universal options. I felt from Luigi to Villager there wasnt enough to seperate these characters from a Strong High to a Low High tier.
Medium Tier: All have the ability to produce strong performances however it is yet to be proven whether they can duke it with the very best of the best on level terms on a plethora of matchups. Some are very strong counterpicks like Bowser/DK, whilst others like Pit, Greninja and DHD have very consistent kits although not as polarising as the top and high tiers. Low Mid Tiers although I believe they wont do very well at supermajors, they have overall consistent kits that let them do well on the Regional level.
Low Tier: These characters actually have really nice traits but they have some pretty big flaws that can limit them. However they can still make decent runs in bracket. Overall their matchup chart with the top tiers are very bad which is a big hinderance. These characters all have strong options though so given the right matchup where their weaknesses arent exposed, they can make an upset.
Bottom Tier: What it says. I dont see any character making a big wave at the top level. My placement of Ike will be controversial. If the top tiers were removed, I would put him a lot higher but his matchup chart vs the top tiers is really underwhelming and I cant see him making upsets on the top level. AC did make top 8 at 2GG but he got slaughtered by Zero/Rich and used an MK secondary heavily.

 

[Deleted member]

I also am somebody that doesn't have much faith in Ike. The character has been barely doing anything of note recently and his rep is pretty sparse these days. I can see him dropping, though low tier is maybe too much.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It actually means that Zero's tier list (at least as far as the top-high tiers, those being the most commonly found characters) *is the tier list*. Such is the level of his dominance. Now, the other members of the community (voters in this case) will not allow themselves to just bow down and roll over and not let their voices be heard, so that will cause some shake-up, adjusting for the mean, the farther up you go. *However*, nobody is going to put themselves out there to challenge the most notable #1 placement of his (that he proclaims), which is Bayo. Nobody wants to be the guy to really put his voice out there in the community, to take up that mantle (I'm sure there are exceptions). Therefore, they all just accept Zero's choice at the #1 slot by default, and they mostly all hate Bayo anyway, and...

I don't buy it. People certainly challenged his previous "Ryu is #1" placement, and his "Rosalina & Luma is #1".

 

[MistressRemilia]

My personal tier list (Not ordered)
Stronger Top tiers
Weaker Top Tiers
High Tiers
High Mid Tiers
Low Mid Tiers:
Low tier but have real upset potential
More or less irrelevant at top level:

Reasoning:
Top Tier: Every character in the top tier bracket has the potential to win a supermajor given the right bracket. The majority of the characters have placed 1st or 2nd at a Supermajor sans Sheik/Bayonetta/Cloud who otherwise display remarkable consistancy on every single level that elevate them above the rest. I feel all top tiers have one or two very troublesome matchups but player skill will carry you to the top with only a few exceptions. The stronger top tiers have more consistent results, better matchups in theory although not enough to make them a major roadblock for the rest.
High Tier: All have potential to do extremely well at supermajors, including appearances at the top 8 stage. However they have a worse matchup chart than the top tiers overall, and in general fewer strong universal options. I felt from Luigi to Villager there wasnt enough to seperate these characters from a Strong High to a Low High tier.
Medium Tier: All have the ability to produce strong performances however it is yet to be proven whether they can duke it with the very best of the best on level terms on a plethora of matchups. Some are very strong counterpicks like Bowser/DK, whilst others like Pit, Greninja and DHD have very consistent kits although not as polarising as the top and high tiers. Low Mid Tiers although I believe they wont do very well at supermajors, they have overall consistent kits that let them do well on the Regional level.
Low Tier: These characters actually have really nice traits but they have some pretty big flaws that can limit them. However they can still make decent runs in bracket. Overall their matchup chart with the top tiers are very bad which is a big hinderance. These characters all have strong options though so given the right matchup where their weaknesses arent exposed, they can make an upset.
Bottom Tier: What it says. I dont see any character making a big wave at the top level. My placement of Ike will be controversial. If the top tiers were removed, I would put him a lot higher but his matchup chart vs the top tiers is really underwhelming and I cant see him making upsets on the top level. AC did make top 8 at 2GG but he got slaughtered by Zero/Rich and used an MK secondary heavily.

Since in my opinion, your reasoning for bottom tier is contradictory with one placement, i'll bite:
Who does Little Mac do good against, within the top tiers? I'm very much tempted to say no one myself, and i'd believe your thought process is moreso leaning towards the high clutch factor & nature of Mac, who's rather inconsistent but certainly capable of doing things, as opposed to say, Ike who's a rather consistent character with strict tools.
It's been a while since Mac has done any wave in tournament btw, i do not really understand what keeps the character so high in a lot of people's mind, because in practice, this character just doesn't work for the most, with all around poor top tier matchups & little to no waves in tournaments lately ( The latest was Destany at PPT Winter. That aside, not much else really. Alphicans dropping the character in singles is also quite a big loss for the character's representation ), at least in my opinion.

That aside, i really like your thought process of relating the tiers & the capabilities of a character in tournament, and i feel like this should be the norm, if it isn't already. I do agree with the rest of the list, even though i would have placed either Kirby in the lowest tier, or Doc & Charizard in the upper tier, since they pretty much fill the same role in the metagame of niche counterpick characters with little to no solo viability, and i do not feel Kirby does that much better in more matchups than Doc & Charizard do, but that's more opinionated. Their placement are dependant on how much you value counterpick characters in the metagame.

By the way, this should not be taken as a personal offense or anything, but while i'm at the subject of the lower tiered character and moreso Little Mac, i've had the feeling that a bunch of them just get thrown here, with little to no thought on how their metagame has evolved, on theory & on practice. I do know they're much less important threats than the Top Tiers, but if you do not feel like you have the capacity to judge because you do not care about them since they do not really matter, it's completely okay for you to just do a TL of Top Tiers. I'm not advertising the fact that you should ditch any of your thoughts on the lower half of the cast, just that in case you do not feel capable of judging them because of limited knowledge & ressource, there's no shame in not including them.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Let's limit tier lists to top 100 players, shall we? If you want to discuss some particular characters, it might be better to just discuss them rather than posting a tier list here.

• They may only be posted by regular members of the discussion, or extremely well-respected players.
  • If you have to ask, the answer is no.
• We don't care about your opinions. We care about your observations, reflections, and conclusions. Never, ever post just a list.
  • Why did you need to post this list? What is different? What does it mean?

 

[HoSmash4]

Spoiler: @ backseat mod

• They may only be posted by regular members of the discussion, or extremely well-respected players.
  • If you have to ask, the answer is no.
• We don't care about your opinions. We care about your observations, reflections, and conclusions. Never, ever post just a list.
  • Why did you need to post this list? What is different? What does it mean?

MistressRemilia
low tiers in general have terrible matchup charts with the good characters but if I feel like they have a niche in a specific matchup or have strong options e.g. Waft or KO punch i placed them in low, not irrelevant. Bottom tier in my opinion are just far too underwhelming to even get a strong win. Doc could be placed higher since he has a niche w/dthrow fair

I definitely don't know what low tiers are completely capable of - that's why it's unordered.

 

[chaos11011]

Duck Hunt has strong Captain Falcon syndrome. He's a really solid character with one of the best neutrals in the game, however, he (DH, not CF) is plagued to be forever lower mid due to the characters above him. The comparison is that CF also gets gatekept by the characters above him.

His best match up against the top tiers is even against Diddy and ZSS, and even those can prove to be rough at times.

If the opponent is Aggro, Fox and Sheik are not too bad, but once they learn the MU and understand how and why to respect Can, their speed and zoning tools are oppressive (yes, laser is actually really good in that MU. It screws all 3 projectiles).

Rosa, Mario, Marth, Mewtwo, and Sonic are in tides. Whoever gets the lead will have an easier time. However, them playing from behind is not as difficult as DH playing from behind. The easiest one of these five is either Rosalina or Mario, while the hardest is Sonic.

Cloud and Bayonetta are outright oppressive due to the former's hitboxes latter's Bullet Arts outright invalidating the character. You cannot use Can in the Bayonetta match up as she can flip it at any time. There's a reason why 3 out of the 6 losses of the G4 Duck Hunt crew were to Bayonetta.

 

[Browny]

Right, so I'm getting nothing but crickets! You guys do have no follow-up, as predicted. That's fine. Your work on compiling the tech data was excellent. Allow me to take it from here.

You see, the thing is, Zero has been so consistently dominant, for so long, that he practically controls the metagame for the entire game. He is the platinum standard, the evil empire; cats take a set here and there, but they know, in the back of their heads, that they'll have to deal with him the next time, and they dread that. The only exceptions (point one out if I missed it) are, most notably Ally, who had a solid run against him, and more recently, Kameme. I'd say it seems like those are the only two cats that consistently would *get up* to face Zero, as opposed to subconsciously admitting defeat beforehand (I'm being poetic, and looking over a lot of guys that do their best, but just go with me hore). The issue with those guys is, that they are much more inconsistent while facing their other opponents, and are capable to drop a set in a huge upset at literally any moment (Zero hardly ever suffers this fate, except if he SD'S TWICE LOLZ AGAINST A DOG AND A DUCK AND A CAN??, or our man Joe plays his best while his guard is down yay!!)

So, what does this mean? It actually means that Zero's tier list (at least as far as the top-high tiers, those being the most commonly found characters) *is the tier list*. Such is the level of his dominance. Now, the other members of the community (voters in this case) will not allow themselves to just bow down and roll over and not let their voices be heard, so that will cause some shake-up, adjusting for the mean, the farther up you go. *However*, nobody is going to put themselves out there to challenge the most notable #1 placement of his (that he proclaims), which is Bayo. Nobody wants to be the guy to really put his voice out there in the community, to take up that mantle (I'm sure there are exceptions). Therefore, they all just accept Zero's choice at the #1 slot by default, and they mostly all hate Bayo anyway, and...

Voila!

There is your comprehensive explanation for her being #1 on this list, backed by the tech data and super-solid theory supplied in this very thread by @UberMadman , TDK , and others.

Shout-outs to Smashers such as Joe, who I will have to assume don't GAF about any of those sort of politics, and just do what they want, and so this analysis will not apply to. Also, I will add that if Zero was *really* being honest with himself, he would put Diddy at #1. But, it's better for his brand if he downplays Diddy's true ability a little.

IT'S EDEN ROCKS, KIDS!

lmao what

Tell me more about how Zero controls the tier list, where for almost 6 months before this new BBR tier list, this was his list

With Zero controlling 'the meta' and forcing Rosalina, Sonic and Ryu to win tournaments all over the place, how is poor Diddy even going to win regionals any more.

Zero is just one person. Yeah he wins a lot, but you overstate his effect so dramatically its not even funny.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't even think Bayo as #1 is even that ridiculous. This wasn't a viewpoint nobody had before his video came out whereas literally nobody who thought about it for very long thought Ryu or Rosalina were solid #1 picks. Bayonetta as the #1 pick again has been a common opinion to see ever since Salem rose up and started putting ruining people in September. GENESIS 4 was a good reiteration of how good the character can be.

I just feel like the debate will swing to her being the "obvious #1 pick" and conversations will be built on the presumption among 80% of the participants assuming she's #1 and there'll be a tone of "oh no how long will it be until Bayonetta ruins the game?" It's been like that ever since her release outside of a brief 3 month period post-nerfs. Cloud follows a similar trend but people tend to accept his counterplay has been a massive detriment to his success. Players in regions with high-level Clouds tend to operate well vs. him. Optimal Diddy counter-play also looks stunningly awful for Cloud.

The smash 4 community is hit hard by the pendulum effect, Bayonetta has a good day = #1. Bayonetta has a bad day = top 4 but not #1. Cloud gets 3/4 in Top 4 > Lookin' like Nash for SFV Season 1. Everything goes wrong for the Top 4 prominent Cloud users, all place outside of Top 12 = Cloud might not even be top 5.

the effect is also pronounced with low/mid tiers and opinions about them though I feel like people have been getting reality checks since nobody's severely overrating an obvious bottom 10 (not including Miis I guess?) character like Kirby

 

[irokex13]

Easy way to avoid pointless arguments.

 

[Das Koopa]

I"m tryna steer this but the ship's out of control

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yes - can't we please?
Can we talk about my second favourite character from the bottom half of the list, Wii Fit Trainer?
How is she in the meta exactly? John Numbers winning against Mr. E recently is a bit of a big deal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't even think Bayo as #1 is even that ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous, just kind of hard to argue because of her current lack of major tournament wins. For a tier list that raises claim on being an accurate representation of the metagame that's actually kind of bad, especially since a character exists that wins more majors than all other characters combined - even as somebody who considers Sheik to be the best character in the game, I'm of the opinion that Diddy Kong clearly should've been the number 1 of the tier list. To be frank I don't see how that's even negotiable.

Bayonetta being #1 is certainly not ridiculous - it may not even be wrong but at this point it's still premature all the same.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/GlutonnySSB/status/837400656692523010

So those polls on 2GG's twitter page led up to this, and it looks like they're trying to fly Glutonny out to Civil War.

I have to say, I'm really excited to see Gluto's Wario on the international stage. It's already proven itself to be the best Wario, but how far will he go at the most stacked tournament of all time?

 

[Das Koopa]

Glutonny and tsu are both pretty likely judging off of 2GG's tweets

best of luck to Gluto but good lord he's going through trial by fire

 

[TDK]

For what it's worth, according to SilentDoom Europe's been pushing for 2 stock, so Gluto won't be going into a completely different meta most likely.

Wario's still nerfed by the 2-stock meta though.

 

[Eden Rocks]

It's clear that I delivered some of the most consistently entertaining string of posts this thread has seen. I'll take the warning without a penalty as a show of respect. Thanks for that. I don't even mind being ridiculed generally by multiple users (and being sure nobody will be issuing them any points, hypocritically), because I'm a professional, dealing with non-professionals, mostly, sweating their turf. I did some good work here. And yes, TK Breezy did light me up, but actually, no, it wasn't my fault, and
I got done a pretty dirty. I was just being polite by taking the blame. Day 1 of my Smash career and I interacted with the absolute best of the industry. He paid me the respect of responding to me afterwards, as well. He's the man.

Re Zero's tier list: this is a really simple take. Whatever Zero's tier list is, is the tier list that I, myself, look to as being the best version. Yes, he could be wrong (so could everyone). Yes, it fluxuates (irrelevant). He's so far and above the best player, that his analysis is simply worth more than the rest of the scene combined (when it comes to the tier list specifically, which is amorphous). That's not a flame, that's just how I see it. His results/body of work/consistency back this up.

 

[BTVolta]

Yes - can't we please?
Can we talk about my second favourite character from the bottom half of the list, Wii Fit Trainer?
How is she in the meta exactly? John Numbers winning against Mr. E recently is a bit of a big deal.

John has beaten him multiple times, so it isn't really a big deal.

Wii Fit in general is just a bad character with a pretty bad MU spread and essentially a dying meta. John is the only one consistently leading top level play and he doesn't go to every big tourney so people can't see how good she is often. There are others, but they either aren't on Johns level yet, not enough exposure, or play other characters more (FunCrazyFish, Floppeh, NibbyNibbyNub, Ascwolf, Waveguider, Rin, HeavySmoker to name some).

Her MUs are getting worse by the day with John lamenting recently on how Cloud and Rosa is basically impossible when played correctly(describing Cloud as going from -1.5 to -2) due to being camped hard recently by some players and that leads to Wii Fits biggest problem: She can't deal with camping(to a degree). Looking at the characters at the top of the meta according to the tierlist she loses to them solidly and they all(sans Bayo?) can camp her with little she can do about it(a sun charge isn't the same as limit charge).

Although this can be particular to characters that have good defensive and offensive game since Pac-man isn't a problem for Her, but Cloud is.
Here's John chart for reference.

 

[MistressRemilia]

For what it's worth, according to SilentDoom Europe's been pushing for 2 stock, so Gluto won't be going into a completely different meta most likely.

Wario's still nerfed by the 2-stock meta though.

Expect Gluto to actually be better in 2 stock. His playstyle and efficiency with setups to kill makes it so that he usually ends up with a waft & a half charged waft, rather than 2 fully charged wafts. The 2 stock meta will take some adaptation, but i have faith in him doing much better in this meta over time, if he has trained enough.

 

[freeziebeatz]

OrionRank2017 Update

Hi y'all. I wanted to do a quick update on what's going on. For those who don't know we started the qualification process and data collection for next years ranking. To qualify you have had place in these tournaments since post ZeRo Saga.

2GGC Genesis Saga - Top 32
Genesis 4 - Top 64
NicoNico Tokaigi - Top 16 (Every Qualifier)
2GGC Midwest Mayhem Saga - Top 32
Frostbite 2017 - Top 32
and more to come.

As a February update I wanted to compare the Top 20 PGR / OrionRank2016 Players set wins / losses from qualified players. Here are the results so far.

Spoiler: ZeRo

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Tristate

OrionRank 2016 - 1st
PGR - 1st

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 3rd (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 1st (SoCal)
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 1st (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 1st (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Ac (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Captain Zack (Genesis 4)
x1 Dabuz (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Elegant (Genesis Saga)
x1 Eon (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 ESAM (Genesis 4)
x1 komorikiri (Genesis Saga)
x1 Larry Lurr (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Locus (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Manny (Genesis 4)
x1 Mr.E (Genesis Saga)
x1 Mr.R (Genesis 4)
x3 Nairo (Genesis 4 | Frostbite 2017)
x1 Ned (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Saiki (Genesis Saga)
x1 Salem (Genesis 4)
x1 Some (Frostbite 2017)
x2 Tsu- (Frostbite 2017)
x2 Tweek (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Viviff T. Great (Genesis 4)
x2 VoiD (Genesis Saga/Genesis 4)
x1 Zenyou (Genesis Saga)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Ally (Genesis 4)
x1 Brood (Genesis 4)
x1 Tsu- (Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: Ally

Main -
Region - Canada/Midwest

OrionRank 2016 - 2nd
PGR - 2nd

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 2nd (NorCal)

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 9th (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 7th (Midwest)

Category 3
Midwest Mayhem 6 - 7th (Midwest)
Midwest Mayhem 7 - 5th (Midwest)

Category 2
Frosty Faustings IX - 1st (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 9B (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Abadango (Genesis 4)
x1 dyr (Frosty Faustings IX)
x1 Kameme (Frostbite 2017)
x1 KEN (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Kirihara (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Locus (Genesis 4)
x1 MVD (Frostbite 2017)
x2 Ned (Midwest Mayhem 6 | Frosty Faustings IX)
x1 Ranai (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Rich Brown (Genesis 4)
x1 VoiD (Genesis 4)
x1 Zenyou (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 ZeRo (Genesis 4)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Dabuz (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Javi (Midwest Mayhem 7)
x2 MKLeo (Genesis 4)
x1 Nairo (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Shoyo James (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Shuton (Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: MKLeo

Main -
Region - Mexico

OrionRank 2016 - 3rd
PGR - 8th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 1st (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 5th (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 13th (Midwest)

Category 3
MSM 81 - 2nd (SoCal)

Category 2
Austin is Really Feeling It 16 - 2nd (South)

Category 1
The Freezing Point - 1st (Midwest)
Smash n Chill 7 - 1st (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 6WX (MSM 81)
x3 Abadango (Frostbite 2017 | Smash n Chill 7)
x2 Ally (Genesis 4)
x1 DarkShad (The Freezing Point)
x1 Deathorse (The Freezing Point)
x1 Elegant (Genesis 4)
x1 ESAM (MSM 81)
x1 Javi (MSM 81)
x2 komorikiri (MSM 81/Genesis 4)
x1 KOSSismoss (Genesis Saga)
x1 Mr.R (Genesis 4)
x1 MVD (MSM 81)
x1 Nicko (MSM 81)
x1 Raffi-X (Genesis 4)
x1 Rich Brown (Genesis Saga)
x1 Tweek (MSM 81)
x1 You3 (Genesis 4)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Kameme (Frostbite 2017)
x2 Tweek (Genesis Saga | MSM 81)
x1 Tyrant (MSM 81)
x2 VoiD (Genesis Saga | Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: Nairo

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Tristate

OrionRank2016 - 4th
PGR - 3rd

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 17th (NorCal)

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 1st (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 3rd (Midwest)

Category 3
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier - 1st (Kanto)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Abadango (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Ally (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Dabuz (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Earth (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 Kare~ (Niconico Tokaigi)
x3 KEN (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier | Niocnico Tokaigi)
x1 Kirihara (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Mr.E (Frostbite 2017)
x1 MVD (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Nietono (Genesis 4)
x1 Shuton (Frostbite 2017)
x1 WaDi (Frostbite 2017)

Qualified Player Losses
x2 KEN (Umebrua Tokaigi Qualifier | NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Mr.R (Genesis 4)
x3 ZeRo (Genesis 4 | Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: Larry Lurr

Main -
Region - SoCal

OrionRank2016 - 5th
PGR - 5th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 13th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 5th (SoCal)

Category 2
PPT Winter - 1st (Germany)
NH Smash 3 - 2nd (Netherlands)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 dyr (Genesis 4)
x1 Elegant (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 JK (Genesis 4)
x1 k9sbruce (Genesis 4)
x1 Mr.R (NH Smash 3)
x1 MVD (Genesis 4)
x1 Rich Brown (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Teb (Midwest Mayhem Saga)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Chag (Genesis 4)
x2 Mr.R (NH Smash 3)
x1 Ned (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Ranai (Genesis 4)
x1 ZeRo (Midwest Mayhem Saga)

Spoiler: Abadango

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Kanto

OrionRank2016 - 6th
PGR - 7th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 5th (NorCal)

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 3rd (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 17th (Midwest)

Category 3
Umebura x Single-Chu - 9th (Kanto)
Smashfield Weeklies #78 - 7th (Midwest)

Category 1
Snash n Chill 7 - 2nd (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Blacktwins (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Hiro (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Ito (Genesis 4)
x1 MVD (Genesis 4)
x1 Ranai (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Salem (Smash n Chill 7)
x1 Shuton (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Tweek (Genesis 4)
x1 Zinoto (Smashfield Weeklies #78)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Ally (Genesis 4)
x1 Black Yoshi (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Captain Zack (Genesis 4)
x1 KEN (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 komorikiri (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x3 MKLeo (Frostbite 2017 | Smash n Chill 7)
x1 Nairo (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Tsu- (Smashfield Weeklies #78)

Spoiler: Mr.R

Main -
Region - Netherlands

OrionRank2016 - 7th
PGR - 10th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 5th (NorCal)

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 9th (Kanto)

Category 3
B.E.A.S.T. 7 - 1st (Sweden)

Category 2
NH Smash 3 - 1st (Netherlands)
Avalon U-VII - 1st (Netherlands)

Category 1
GGWP 0.9 - 1st (Netherlands)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Captain Zack (Genesis 4)
x1 Fatality (Genesis 4)
x1 KEN (Niconico Tokaigi)
x2 Larry Lurr (NH Smash 3)
x1 Nairo (Genesis 4)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Larry Lurr (NH Smash 3)
x1 MKLeo (Genesis 4)
x1 Ranai (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Tsu- (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 ZeRo (Genesis 4)

Spoiler: Salem

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Florida

OrionRank2016 - 8th
PGR - 13th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 25th (NorCal)

Category 4
Frostbite 2017 - 5th (Midwest)

Category 3
Smash Conference LXIX - 1st (Florida)

Category 1
Coffee Boys 11 - 1st (Florida)
Smash n Chill 7 - 4th (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 9B (Genesis 4)
x1 dyr (Coffee Boys 11)
x1 komorikiri (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Ryo (Coffee Boys 11)
x2 Samsora (Smash Conference LXIX)
x1 Shuton (Frostbite 2017)
x1 You3 (Genesis 4)
Qualified Player Losses
x1 Abadango (Smash n Chill 7)
x1 Dabuz (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Elegant (Genesis 4)
x1 Tsu- (Frostbite 2017)
x1 ZeRo (Genesis 4)

Spoiler: VoiD

Main -
Region - SoCal

OrionRank2016 - 9th
PGR - 6th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 9th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 3rd (SoCal)
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 7th (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 9th (Midwest)

Category 3
MSM 79 - 1st (SoCal)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 6WX (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 JK (Genesis 4)
x1 k9sbruce (Genesis Saga)
x2 MKLeo (Genesis Saga | Frostbite 2017)
x1 MVD (Genesis Saga)
x1 NAKAT (Genesis 4)
x2 Rich Brown (MSM 79)
x1 Smasher1001 (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Vash (Genesis Saga)
x1 Zan (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Zenyou (Midwest Mayhem Saga)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Ally (Genesis 4)
x1 Dabuz (Frostbite 2017)
x1 komorikiri (Genesis Saga)
x1 Ned (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Tsu- (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Tweek (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x2 ZeRo (Genesis Saga | Genesis 4)

Spoiler: Dabuz

Main -
Region - Tristate

OrionRank2016 - 10th
PGR - 4th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 7th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 13th (SoCal)
Niconico Tokaigi - 7th (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 4th (Midwest)

Category 2
Kumite in Tennessee - 1st (Southeast)
Smash Valley - 1st (Germany)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Ally (Niconico Tokaigi)
x2 ANTI (Kumite in Tennessee)
x1 Earth (Genesis 4)
x2 Elegant (Genesis Saga/Genesis 4)
x1 ESAM (Genesis Saga)
x1 Hiro (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 KEN (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Marss (Genesis 4)
x1 Ryuga (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Salem (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Tweek (Genesis 4)
x1 VoiD (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Zinoto (Frostbite 2017)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 DSS (Genesis Saga)
x1 KEN (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 komorikiri (Genesis Saga)
x1 Nairo (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Shuton (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 ZeRo (Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: ANTi

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Tristate

OrionRank2016 - 11th
PGR - 9th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 9th (NorCal)

Category 2
Kumite in Tennessee - 2nd (Southeast)

Category 1
Winter Brawl 11 - 1st (Tristate)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 9B (Genesis 4)
x1 AeroLink (Genesis 4)
x1 DSS (Genesis 4)
x1 Jan (Genesis 4)
x1 NAKAT (Genesis 4)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Captain Zack (Genesis 4)
x2 Dabuz (Kumite in Tennessee)
x1 MVD (Genesis 4)

Spoiler: komorikiri

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Kansai

OrionRank2016 - 12th
PGR - 12th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 7th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 2nd (SoCal)
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 3rd (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 17th (Midwest)

Category 3
MSM 81 - 3rd (SoCal)
Smashfield Weeklies #78 - 5th (Midwest)

Category 2
MSM 85 - 7th (SoCal)
MSM 87 - 1st (SoCal)

Qualified Players Beaten
x2 6WX (Genesis Saga | MSM 81)
x2 Aarvark (Genesis 4 | MSM 87)
x1 Abadango (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 AeroLink (Genesis 4)
x1 Blacktwins (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Charliedaking (MSM 81)
x1 Dabuz (Genesis Saga)
x1 Ezreal (Genesis Saga)
x1 Fatality (Genesis Saga)
x2 Javi (Genesis Saga | MSM 81)
x1 Jtails (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 KOSSismoss (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Ned (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x3 Ranai (Genesis 4 | MSM 87)
x1 Rich Brown (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Shel (MSM 85)
x1 Smasher1001 (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Tweek (Genesis Saga)
x1 VoiD (Genesis Saga)
x1 Zenyou (Genesis Saga)
x1 Zinoto (Midwest Mayhem Saga)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Charliedaking (MSM 79)
x1 Eon (Genesis Saga)
x1 KEN (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x2 MKLeo (MSM 81 | Genesis 4)
x1 Ranai (MSM 87)
x1 Salem (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Shuton (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x3 Tweek (MSM 81 | Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 ZeRo (Genesis Saga)
x1 Zinoto (Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: Zinoto

Main -
Region - Midwest

OrionRank2016 - 13th
PGR - 16th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 33rd (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 9th (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 7th (Midwest)

Category 3
Midwest Mayhem 6 - 1st (Midwest)
Midwest Mayhem 7 - 2nd (Midwest)

Category 1
S@X 2/7/17 - 1st (MD/VA)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 DarkAura (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Deathorse (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Elegant (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Javi (Midwest Mayhem 7)
x1 komorikiri (Frostbite 2017)
x1 MJG (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Mr.E (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Pink Fresh (S@X 2/7/17)
x1 Remzi (Genesis 4)
x1 Samsora (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Shoyo James (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Tyrant (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x2 WaDi (S@X 2/7/17)
x1 Zenyou (Midwest Mayhem 6)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Abadango (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Brood (Genesis 4)
x1 Dabuz (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Kameme (Frostbite 2017)
x1 komorikiri (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Manny (Genesis 4)
x3 Ned (Midwest Mayhem 7 | Midwest Mayhem Saga)

Spoiler: Kameme

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Kanto

OrionRank2016 - 14th
PGR - 11th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 25th (NorCal)

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 13th (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 9th (Midwest)

Category 3
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier - 2nd (Kansai)
Umebura x Single-Chu - 17th (Kanto)
Smash of Titans 15 - 7th (NorCal)
Smashfield Weeklies #78 - 5th (Midwest)

Category 1
Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostibte - 2nd (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Dath (Genesis 4)
x1 Earth (Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 KOSSismoss (Smash of Titans 15)
x1 MKLeo (Frostbite 2017)
x2 Nietono (Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier | Smash of Titans 15)
x1 Ranai (Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 Ryuga (Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite)
x1 Shuton (Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 Some (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Tsu- (Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite)
x1 Zinoto (Frostbite 2017)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 9B (Smash of Titans 15)
x1 Ally (Frostbite 2017)
x1 ESAM (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 ikep (Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier)
x2 Kirihara (Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite)
x1 Marss (Genesis 4)
x1 NAKAT (Genesis 4)
x2 Shuton (Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier | Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Some (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x2 Tsu- (Niconico Tokaigi | Frostbite 2017)
x1 Xzax (Smash of Titans 15)

Spoiler: Marss

Main -
Secondary -
Region - New England

OrionRank2016 - 15th
PGR - 15th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 13th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 13th (SoCal)

Category 3
MSM 81 - 9th (SoCal)

Category 2
Invasion 12 - 1st (New England)
GUMS 13 - 1st (New England)

Category 1
GUMS 12 - 1st (New England)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Dath (Genesis Saga)
x1 k9sbruce (Genesis 4)
x1 Kameme (Genesis 4)
x1 LingLing (GUMS 12)
x1 Mr. E (Invasion 12)
x1 Nicko (Genesis Saga)
x1 Raffi-X (GUMS 13)
x1 Shaky (Genesis 4)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 6WX (MSM 81)
x1 Captain Zack (Genesis 4)
x1 Dabuz (Genesis 4)
x1 ESAM (MSM 81)
x1 k9sbruce (Genesis Saga)
x1 Tweek (Genesis Saga)

Spoiler: ESAM

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Florida

OrionRank2016 - 16th
PGR - 27th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 13th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 25th (SoCal)
Niconico Tokaigi - 9th (Kanto)

Category 3
Smash Conference LXIX - 3rd
MSM 81 - 4th

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Chag (Genesis 4)
x1 Child (Smash Conference LXIX)
x1 Earth (Genesis 4)
x1 Ito (Genesis 4)
x1 Javi (MSM 81)
x1 Kameme (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Marss (MSM 81)
x1 Samsora (Genesis 4)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 AeroLink (Genesis 4)
x1 Dabuz (Genesis Saga)
x1 KEN (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Kirihara (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 MKLeo (MSM 81)
x2 Samsora (Smash Conference LXIX)
x1 Tyrant (MSM 81)
x1 Zenyou (Genesis Saga)
x1 ZeRo (Genesis 4)

Spoiler: Tyrant

Main -
Region - SoCal

OrionRank 2016 - 17th
PGR - 34th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 33rd (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 25th (SoCal)
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 17th (SoCal)

Category 3
Midwest Mayhem 6 - 4th (Midwest)
MSM 81 - 5th (SoCal)

Category 2
MSM 85 - 7th (SoCal)
MSM 87 - 3rd (SoCal)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 ESAM (MSM 81)
x1 k9sbruce (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Legit (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 LingLing (Genesis 4)
x1 MJG (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 MKLeo (MSM 81)
x1 Nicko (MSM 87)
x2 Rich Brown (Midwest Mayhem 6 | MSM 85)
x1 Zenyou (MSM 85)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Eon (MSM 81)
x1 Javi (Genesis Saga)
x1 KOSSismoss (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Locus (Genesis 4)
x1 MVD (Genesis Saga)
x1 Nicko (MSM 87)
x1 Ranai (MSM 87)
x1 Shoyo James (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x3 Tweek (Genesis Saga | MSM 81 | Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Zinoto (Midwest Mayhem 6)

Spoiler: Tweek

Main -
Secondary -
Region - Tristate

OrionRank2016 - 18th
PGR - 17th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 9th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 4th (SoCal)
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 2nd (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 33rd (Midwest)

Category 3
MSM 81 - 1st (SoCal)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Child (Genesis 4)
x1 Dath (MSM 81)
x1 Eon (Genesis Saga)
x1 JK (Genesis Saga)
x3 komorikiri (MSM 81 | Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Manny (Genesis 4)
x1 Marss (Genesis Saga)
x2 MKLeo (Genesis Saga | MSM 81)
x1 Mr.E (MSM 81)
x1 MVD (Genesis Saga)
x1 Remzi (Genesis 4)
x1 Snoop (Genesis Saga)
x3 Tyrant (Genesis Saga | MSM 81 | Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 VoiD (Midwest Mayhem Saga)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 6WX (MSM 85)
x1 Abadango (Genesis 4)
x1 Dabuz (Genesis 4)
x1 Eon (MSM 85)
x1 ImHip (Genesis Saga)
x1 komorikiri (Genesis Saga)
x1 MKLeo (MSM 81)
x1 Myran (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Tsu- (Frostbite 2017)
x2 ZeRo (Midwest Mayhem Saga)

Spoiler: Ranai

Main -
Region - Kansai

OrionRank2016 - 21st
PGR - 14th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 9th (NorCal)

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 5th (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 33rd (Midwest)

Category 3
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier - 7th (Kansai)
Umebura x Single-Chu - 17th (Kanto)
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier - 1st (Chubu)
Sumabato 15 - 33rd (Kansai)

Category 2
MSM 87 - 2nd (SoCal)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Child (Genesis 4)
x1 ikep (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Javi (Genesis 4)
x1 komorikiri (MSM 87)
x1 Larry Lurr (Genesis 4)
x1 LingLing (Genesis 4)
x1 Mr.R (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Nicko (MSM 87)
x1 Nietono (Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 Shoyo James (Genesis 4)
x1 Tyrant (MSM 87)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Abadango (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Ally (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Kameme (Sumabato Tokaigi Quaifier)
x1 KEN (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x3 komorikiri (Genesis 4 | MSM 87)
x1 Rich Brown (Genesis 4)
x1 WaDi (Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: KEN

Main -
Region - Kanto

OrionRank2017 - 22nd
PGR - 19th

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 2nd (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 17th (Midwest)

Category 3
Umebura x Single-Chu - 1st (Kanto)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier - 2nd (Kanto)
Smashfield Weeklies #78 - 4th (Midwest)

Category 1
Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite - 7th (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x3 9B (Umebura x Single-Chu | Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 Abadango (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Dabuz (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 ESAM (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 ikep (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 komorikiri (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 NAKAT (Frostbite 2017)
x2 Nairo (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier | Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Ranai (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Smasher1001 (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Tsu- (Niconico Tokaigi)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Ally (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Dabuz (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Kirihara (Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite)
x1 Mr.R (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x3 Nairo (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier | NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Shuton (Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite)
x1 Some (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Tsu- (Smashfield Weeklies #78)

Spoiler: Mr.E

Main -
Region - Tristate

OrionRank2016 - 25th
PGR - 18th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 49th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Genesis Saga - 9th (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 9th (Midwest)

Category 3
Smash Conference LXIX - 7th (Florida)
MSM 81 - 9th (SoCal)

Category 2
XenoFortyTwo - 5th (Tristate)
Invasion 12 - 3rd (New England)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Black Yoshi (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Captain Zack (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Elegant (MSM 81)
x1 Fatality (Genesis Saga)
x1 LingLing (Invasion 12)
x1 Manny (Smash Conference LXIX)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 9B (Genesis 4)
x1 Elegant (Genesis 4)
x1 JK (Genesis Saga)
x1 Myran (Smash Conference LXIX)
x1 Nairo (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Tweek (MSM 81)
x1 ZeRo (Genesis Saga)
x1 Zinoto (Frostbite 2017)

Spoiler: Captain Zack

Main -
Secondary -
Region - South

OrionRank2016 - 27th
PGR - 20th

Category 5
Genesis 4 - 4th (NorCal)

Category 4
2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga - 13th (SoCal)
Frostbite 2017 - 17th (Midwest)

Category 3
Midwest Mayhem 6 - 5th (Midwest)

Category 1
TGL Monthly 13 - 1st (Florida)
NOLA Gaming Festival - 2nd (South)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 Aarvark (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Abadango (Genesis 4)
x1 ANTi (Genesis 4)
x1 Chag (Genesis 4)
x1 Ghost (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Kirihara (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Locus (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 Marss (Genesis 4)
x2 MVD (TGL Monthly 13)
x1 Rich Brown (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Ryo (Genesis 4)
x1 Samsora (NOLA Gaming Festival)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 Elegant (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Mr.E (Frostbite 2017)
x1 Mr.R (Genesis 4)
x1 Ned (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x2 Samsora (NOLA Gaming Festival)
x1 Shoyo James (Midwest Mayhem 6)
x1 Some (Frostbite 2017)
x1 SS (Midwest Mayhem Saga)
x1 ZeRo (Genesis 4)

Full database can be found here
https://smashboards.com/threads/orionrank-2017-data-thread.445337/#post-21645383

 

[HoSmash4]

It's not ridiculous, just kind of hard to argue because of her current lack of major tournament wins. For a tier list that raises claim on being an accurate representation of the metagame that's actually kind of bad, especially since a character exists that wins more majors than all other characters combined - even as somebody who considers Sheik to be the best character in the game, I'm of the opinion that Diddy Kong clearly should've been the number 1 of the tier list. To be frank I don't see how that's even negotiable.

Bayonetta being #1 is certainly not ridiculous - it may not even be wrong but at this point it's still premature all the same.

For me it's hard thing to justify picking an exact #1. Diddy wins all these tournaments but the winner has always been Zero. Is it the character or player skill when it comes to top 8?

 

[ARISTOS]

For me it's hard thing to justify picking an exact #1. Diddy wins all these tournaments but the winner has always been Zero. Is it the character or player skill when it comes to top 8?

At top 8 it might only be ZeRo, but as a character is ubiquitous throughout all levels of play and IIRC had the highest number of mains in both Orion and PGR rankings.

IMO the strongest case for #1 results-wise is Diddy Kong.

 

[PK Gaming]

What caused Shulk to rise in the tier list / eyes of many?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What caused Shulk to rise in the tier list / eyes of many?

Typical several month long spike in results that range on the tier list can get.

 

[Deleted member]

What caused Shulk to rise in the tier list / eyes of many?

Yo. Resident neighborhood Shulk main here, I can give you some reasons.

- @erico9001 joining the 4BR helped a lot. For a while the backroom had no Shulk representative, so this was rad.

- The character has been able to pump out some rather respectable results in the past year or so.

- Shulks started going out more (Nicko is very well respected in SoCal). People realized how his toolkit was stronger than that of a low tier's. It's pretty simple. Shulk also has a better matchup spread than most people believe. He can tango with most of the cast reasonably well, but unfortunately are all some of his worst matchups. That's not good when they're all extremely common characters. They can naturally be upset, but they're still very exhausting.