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One of ROB's best reps, Raffi-X from New England, doesn't travel much. He has good OoR wins on Pink Fresh (KTAR) and Day (G4). At a regional level, he's pretty much guaranteed to win anything that Marss or Light doesn't go to, only sporting occasional struggles against Pugwest, NTarps, and the up-and-coming Kogarasuma.
Who on Earth did Zack lose to?PG Key to 2GGC Civil War Top 8
Winners
Sonidovs Master Puffy
Naranja
Losers
Captain Zack
Zay
I agree with this
You shouldn't find a playstyle to play in. It should come naturally.
and Raffi-X beat Anti. Strong showing for New England.
Just wanna say while this is mostly a reasonable opinion, Ness actually does *really* well against Bayo, I dunno where you pulled that idea from, and his matchup with Mewtwo is about even or slightly losing.
(rough estimate, random ones that came to mind) in pools. Usually not worth against .
Luco
says, I mostly agree with, I want to draw attension to the part where you says there is a period of interactions where Ness isn't even playing.Olimar doesn't care much about platform camping. If someone is camping him on the top bf platform, he can use the time to get a good lineup with two purples or maybe some reds and then from below the platform he can do FJ uair --> DJ uair --> up b uair, FJ uair --> DJ nair ac to grab --> FJ uair --> DJ bair, etc. If he's doing this with purples or reds it does a ton of shield damage and unlike the other characters you listed, his uair kills while also having really low FAF so he can mixup the timing and be more aggressive with it. He can also land on the platform with purple pikmin toss and follow up.Platform camping for timeouts is doable by almost every character in the game and is the optimal strategy against many good and bad characters. If you're not prepared to platform camp a Diddy for 3-4 minutes while at 80% on your first stock after killing him, you don't want the win.
I'd like to boldly say that characters unable to deal with it will fall while the ones with decent counterplay against it will rise, but looking at Melee tells me that this strategy won't ever be popularized despite it being so powerful with a lead.
Just saying. Keep the option in mind if you're 1-1 or 2-2 against your local
Luco
you're starting to sound like
Envoy of Chaos
man
Diddy's airspeed sucks and the character can't chase all that well. His best killing option through platforms is banana up>utilt, which doesn't kill until around ~140 but is safe if the banana hits their shield and they try to do anything but hold it. Monkey Flip grab and Uair also won't kill on standard T&C heights, BF or DL until over 150. Bair is the best option, but if he jumps with his back facing you on a platform there's little reason to not hold shield. k9 and ZeRo have been getting plat camped more recently, but not many people commit to doing it as a win condition. Right now it's used as a "get extra percent" strat, but you could go for timeouts with it if you wanted.
Ness vs Cloud is GARBAGE. Ness loses that mu hard. You have Ness who has a pretty meh nuetral, bad disadvantage state, and one of the strongest punish games in the roster versus Cloud who has one of the best neutrals in the game, an OK disadvantage state (it's only bad when he's offstage without limit), and an even stronger punish game than Ness.
Ness gameplan in neutral:
Get a grab. It is his most lucrative tool. From a grab he gets true combos at low percents and sometimes mid precents (other factors must be considered at mid percent like rage, fall speed, etc). He also gets stage control and PKT/aerial juggling at mid percents and a kill throw at late percents.
A competent player isn't just going to let you run up and grab them so you have to condition them to stay grounded and shield. Pivot and shield grabs often require the opponent to flub an approach but if Ness is approaching with a dash grab you have the following options to beat it: you can, roll, spot dodge, throw out an attack like a jab or a tilt, a retreating aerial to whiff punish the grab, a rising aerial to stuff the grab, throw out a dash grab/attack of your own, throw a projectile. Ness must condition his opponent with his normals to get the grab. His aerials have big hitboxes, are disjointed, and can be used to stuff aerial and some grounded approaches. Ness dash attack can stuff grounded approaches, punish some retreating aerials, retreating rolls, and spot dodges. You use a combination of his aerials and dash attack to keep the opponent grounded and in their shield. Once they start shielding you start grabbing. If they try to avoid the grab again then start throwing out Ness normals again. Rinse and repeat.
Back to Ness v Cloud:
Ness gameplan does not work against Cloud. Why? Ness can't keep Cloud on the ground because Ness aerials straight up lose when going head to head with Clouds aerials. This makes it EXTREMELY difficult to condition him and makes neutral very difficult for Ness.
This forces Ness to play a ground game which isn't strong to begin with and is even weaker if you can eliminate his aerial options. This is why he loses to sword characters in general because they all have the tools to do this (some better than others). On the ground all Ness has are his poorly ranged tilts and jab (most if not all of them have less range than Marios, let that sink in). There's also his very poor dash speed and his dash grab which has 6-8 frames more endlag than your average non-tether dash grab. PK Fire, more like PK Lag. Dash attack is Ness' only ground poke with *kinda* low commitment. You can just run around and shield but Cloud does a lot of shield stun and has a normal grab so have fun.
For Ness neutral just amounts to a bunch of hard reads and guess's with few options to work with which will result in him losing neutral quite often. Casinos should make this a game in their venues, that's how much reading and guessing you have to do smh.
Punish Game:
Ness punish game, as strong as it is, isn't strong enough to matter in this MU. In fact, Ness punishes aren't even as strong in this MU as it is in others. On stage if Ness gets in his juggle potential is lessened by stupid **** like Clouds dair, uair, and his range in general. He's heavy so he dies later. Limit can save him offstage as with any of Clouds MU's. PKT juggling is strong if you get him offstage but getting him there is the problem.
Cloud punish game, juggles Ness for free and quite often gets more off of one neutral win than Ness in terms of damage and stage control, Ness nair and uair doesn't help much because swords, can kill Ness earlier than Ness can kill him with LCS, and deadly, low risk edgeguards while in limit.
All in all the one thing that Ness is really good at, punishment, Cloud does it better in this MU
Video You Posted:
The video you posted doesn't really convince me that this MU isn't garbage for Ness. Mr R sd'd in one match, in another match Mr R damn near JV'd him while S1 had a significant lead in that same match, Some stocks S1 got destroyed while Mr R went almost completely untouched.
Other factors: skill gap between Mr R and S1, one player is playing with their main while the other is playing with their secondary. The best we can see of this MU as far as I know is FOW/Shaky vs Leo/Komo/Tweek.
Conclusion:
MU IS TRASH lol
...and M2 v Ness is definitely not even lol M2 wins to say the least, and Ness v Bayo is even at best for Ness. Why? Witch Time
Luco
goes to tournaments with his Ness/Lucas and has major success in his region.
While you may be right about Ness, pissing on his supporters who present mostly valid arguments is not the way to go. Did you skipped Bayo-Ness talk? It has been argued that Ness wins the MU, because he doesn't care about Witch Time. His main thing is grabbing, which goes against it. Offstage and upwards Bayo eats PKTs. Ness is floaty and small, so he can SDI out of Bayo specials more often than not. Bayo's approach is about as predictable as Ness' so neutral isn't so bad. Captain Zack has lost to FOW and SS, FOW defeated Saj, Taranito defeated 9B, and other examples. I know I am simplifying it but it was a long discussion.
...and M2 v Ness is definitely not even lol M2 wins to say the least, and Ness v Bayo is even at best for Ness. Why? Witch Time
Do you mean [*spoiler][*/spoiler] or [*spoiler=description goes here][*/spoiler] without the *?TIL that smashboards doesn't support BBCODE [hide][/hide]
I don't piss on Ness supporters. I'm just not as optimistic as some of them are, mainly
Envoy of Chaos
and sometimes
Luco
and I call them out on it just like I have been called out for being so "pessimistic" about Ness. I was one of the few posters on here who said Ness was going to decline a long time ago and even posted a list of characters that I felt that Ness lost to at the time and gave detailed explanations on a few of them but most people on here just wrote it off or disagreed with me on a lot of it. Now here we are in 2017 and Ness has lost set(s) to most if not all of the characters I listed at top level. If I can find that post I'll repost it. As far as we have all seen I've been right about most of this stuff.
Not saying the MU is unwinnable but I think it's bad enough to just use a secondary instead. I'll be more specific with my wording from now on
What would you consider a poor up air?
I definitely should have gone into more detail on this. I'll use Lucas's Uair for this
Thanks, the standard is usually [hide].
Can I get some clarification on what move from Ness bayo is looking to witch time? Ness only uses up airs, bairs, or throws for kills. Ness shouldn't be getting witch timed much if at all.
Ness v Bayo is even at best for Ness. Why? Witch Time
