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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Mister M

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Messages
79
We're all saying the same thing. The only difference is our feeeeeelings.

Something I've wanted to discuss about Ness is PK thunder. Often opponents like to dance around me walling with aeriels from a distance. From mid range I find I can open them up a little with pk thunder and also condition them to stay grounded a little more when they are being busy bodies.

Someone mentioned Ness as a character vulnerable to platform camping. Double jumping with Ness can trigger campers to leap to the next platform. Cancelling those double jumps with pk thunder every now and then should dissuade them from their bull****.

Unfortunately I am not a high level player so I'm wondering if this strat holds up for others. I find it to be a decent response to platform camping for Ness. Players who respond by staying in shields can still be poked using the tail, which can lead to pk thunder two kills.
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
But unless you are Corrin or Sheik (And still but probably not for much longer, Rosalina) your not going to beat him for free as long as he has such a strong advantage, which thanks to people like Flashwire and many others is getting more optimized and deadly each day.
Why does Corrin beat Ness so badly, anyways? I've always heard that it's basically because of side B.
Also, can PK Thunder hit Corrin out of up B?
 

AusJJV

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
14
Location
Australia
NNID
bowjacashle
3DS FC
0516-7571-4084
We're all saying the same thing. The only difference is our feeeeeelings.

Something I've wanted to discuss about Ness is PK thunder. Often opponents like to dance around me walling with aeriels from a distance. From mid range I find I can open them up a little with pk thunder and also condition them to stay grounded a little more when they are being busy bodies.

Someone mentioned Ness as a character vulnerable to platform camping. Double jumping with Ness can trigger campers to leap to the next platform. Cancelling those double jumps with pk thunder every now and then should dissuade them from their bull****.

Unfortunately I am not a high level player so I'm wondering if this strat holds up for others. I find it to be a decent response to platform camping for Ness. Players who respond by staying in shields can still be poked using the tail, which can lead to pk thunder two kills.
Mixups are always good, there's nothing wrong with it. Just as long you're not doing it every time. That's the purpose of a mixup. But hey, I don't implement that into my play and maybe I should try it :) But yeah, PK Thunder imo is a very good projectile, not amazing but pretty good.

Something that you may sometimes use is PSI Magnet stalling. taranito uses it effectively (especially with this set against Syco, I watched that live). Plus, Ness' u-air is easily one of the better ones in the game. It has a wide, mobile hitbox that can be used in a SH after a quick air dodge, I use that sometimes, it's a decent mixup to say the least.

Down here in Australia the PK Kids in general get a lot of representation. Poppt and Luco are both easily top 10 players in our region and they do rather consistently well from what I see. We're having a national coming up in May, Battle Arena Melbourne 9. Normally our players get washed out by international players (Mr R, Abadango, 9B). However, Waveguider a Wii Fit/Greninja player managed to take Umeki to Game 5 which is cool :)

I believe Luco is already confirmed for BAM9? I hope he is :)

Anyways, I dont believe Ness gets platform camped THAT hard in general. He's got strong aerials to combat it, but he is advised to mix up whenever he can (like that PK Thunder tactic is an example).
 

Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
796
Location
Warren MI.
NNID
Zeratrix
Didn't respond hardly at all for a full page.
Man I got quiet but I was rewatching the Mr. Iwata tributes....big mistake now i'm on the verge of tears again.

Anyways about ness. The only thing I really know about him is if you're unskilled enough to be caught in one PK fire Ness can immediately follow that up with another and another unless you SDI out of it (unless something changed in the last patch, I don't see a lot of Ness users nowadays).
It's also an easy setup for a smash but this info is slightly outdated, anyone want to get me up to date on PKfire setups?
 

YerTheBestAROUND

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
373
Location
Playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild for eternity.
Why does Corrin beat Ness so badly, anyways? I've always heard that it's basically because of side B.
Also, can PK Thunder hit Corrin out of up B?
Solid disjoint, side b, a nair that covers a lot of options when edge guarding, side b, better at playing Ness' neutral style (turtling), a counter that kills Ness at 30% for trying to recover with up b.
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
iStudying is also confirmed for Civil War. Next up is Kome, and they're pretty close to unlocking him.
 

verbatim

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2015
Messages
618
Why does Corrin beat Ness so badly, anyways? I've always heard that it's basically because of side B.
Also, can PK Thunder hit Corrin out of up B?
It's a lot like the Rosa matchup, throw him offstage and use down-b.


Seriously though, most of the good sword characters with counter have a really easy time edgeguarding Ness, with disjointed hitboxes and the afformentioned counters to cut through PKT2 and kill really early. Their edgeguarding isn't as good as Rosa's, but I'd argue that Corrin does a lot better on-stage (mainly because of Pin) in the matchup than Rosa does to make up for it.
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
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It's a lot like the Rosa matchup, throw him offstage and use down-b.


Seriously though, most of the good sword characters with counter have a really easy time edgeguarding Ness, with disjointed hitboxes and the afformentioned counters to cut through PKT2 and kill really early. Their edgeguarding isn't as good as Rosa's, but I'd argue that Corrin does a lot better on-stage (mainly because of Pin) in the matchup than Rosa does to make up for it.
That's very true.

On stage, Rosalina:Ness is a lot more even than one would think, mainly because of Ness's solid neutral. Now, this isn't to say Rosalina has a bad neutral, as that's far from the truth, but her more defensive neutral against Ness's more quick, disjointed options such as Fair and Bair, or even Dash Attack, can make it a little tricky.

When Rosalina gets advantage, it's hard for Ness to safely relieve the pressure she can put on him though, with things like RAR Bair (RAR Bair gives it a little more range while Luma is still in the land of the living), and of course Uair.

The MU is tilted 100% by Rosalina's ability to stop Ness recovering with a simple button press if her spacing is right (if the pulled PK Thunder hits Ness, he can try again as he won't go into freefall). Every other stage of the game is still relatively even.

That said, if Gravitational Pull didn't exist, I think Rosalina would still have a minor advantage in the MU, if just because while Ness has tools to fight back against Rosalina's more defensive neutral game, it's not 100% reliable; if Rosalina reacts quick enough to his options, he can be punished for attempting to break through (her Dash Attack or a well timed Dash Grab can punish all of his best attempts for breaking through is quick enough; the former moreso).

Any character that can threaten Ness's recovery well will do at least even in the MU; even characters like Roy that in theory would struggle against Ness on stage otherwise. Roy can KO Ness from PKT2 at approximately 15% with his Counter...

Characters like Marth and Corrin can threaten Ness on stage as well as off stage with their respective Counter moves. I think that sums up the MU's pretty well.

But it's worth noting that Ness is a character that if you make a mistake against him even once with almost ANY character, you can die at 90% for it. The sheer power and threat of his Back Throw is relevant enough in any MU to have Ness turn a disadvantage into an advantage should the opponent make a mistake.

I personally feel Ness's placement is spot on - it's where I would place him. I think the character could go higher in the future if his mains come out and show us why he deserves to go higher, but for right now, he's perfect IMO.
 
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Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
i was in bad shape Monday so I'll post updates soon

but here's a fun thing; Attendence for Civil War

46/50 PGRv2:
TSM | ZeRo :4diddy:
C9 | Ally :4mario:
NRG | Nairo :4zss:
RNG | Dabuz :rosalina:
MSF | Larry Lurr :4fox:
CLG | VoiD :4sheik:
LG | Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight:
eLv | Mr. R :4sheik:
ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo :4cloud2:,:4marth:
IMT | ANTi :4mario:, :4cloud2::4zss::4metaknight::4diddy::4sheik:
DNG | Kameme :4megaman:
MVG | Salem :4bayonetta:
2GG | komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
P1 | Tweek :4cloud2:
DNL | Marss :4zss:
AS | Zinoto :4diddy:
EvL | Mr. E :4marth:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
InC | WaDi :4mewtwo:
PG | ESAM :4pikachu:
PG | Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
Ranai :4villager:
Circa | 6WX :4sonic:
MVG | ScAtt :4megaman:
FS | Fatality :4falcon:
LooK | Falln :rosalina:
Tyrant :4metaknight:
Earth :4pit:
Vinnie :4sheik:
Samsora :4peach:
Pugwest :4marth:
eLv | False :4marth:, :4sheik:
DNG | Nietono :4diddy:, :4sheik:
MVG | dyr :4diddy:
G-FORCE Oni | Day :4lucario:
PG | MVD :4diddy:
Dath :4robinm:
saj :4bayonetta:
FS | Wrath :4sonic:
UBCEA | Locus :4ryu:
Noble | Ryo :4myfriends:, :4corrinf::4feroy:
Kirihara :rosalina:
E2C | Darkshad :4ryu:
Trela :4ryu:
Ned :4cloud2:, :4zss:


Other notables:

HY | Javi :4cloud2:,:4sheik:
Yatta | JK :4bayonetta:
CL | DSS :4metaknight:
TTN | GrimTurtle :4bayonetta:
CL | Legit :4diddy:
Captain L :4pikachu:
Karna :4sheik:
Konga :4dk:
Rice :4mario:,:4fox:
TeS MMG | Ghost :4fox:
Xzax :4fox:
JJROCKETS :4diddy:
FOW :4ness:
DKwill :4dk:
Angel Cortes :4diddy:
tyroy :4bayonetta:
Remzi :4zss:
Zephyr :4cloud2:
Jtails :4diddy:, :4marth:
CLG | NAKAT :4fox:, :4lucina:
K9sbruce :4diddy:, :4sheik:
LH | Charliedaking :4fox:
2S | Nicko :4shulk:
Aarvark :4villager:
LooK | Ac :4falco:,:4metaknight::4marth:
PG | Zan :4tlink:
Mr. ConCon :4luigi:
LH | Eon :4fox:
NotLast :4peach:
TLTC :4palutena:(???)
Slither2Hunter :4metaknight:
ViceGrip :4bowserjr:
ImHip :4olimar:,:4duckhunt:
Johnny Westside :4samus:
FinalBoss :4bowser:
Snoop :4yoshi:
Ezreal :4pikachu:
Tremendo Dude :4shulk:
Elegant :4luigi:
Skorpio :4robinm:
Fable | 8BitMan :4rob:
Fuwa :4marth:
Kome :4shulk:
iStudying :4greninja:
Bizzarro Flame :4ganondorf: (Melee player, former top 100)
Strong Bad :4diddy:, :4pikachu: (Project M player, top 50)



Notable PR'd players:
L.U.C.Y :4tlink: (Texas)
Depunked :4megaman: (New Mexico)
TonySherbert :rosalina: (Texas)
DJ Fliphop :4diddy: (Texas)
Zan The Man :4falcon:(New Mexico)
Jerm :4robinm: (Texas)
Nurse :4dk: (Saskatchewan)
Braixen :4diddy: (Pacific Northwest)
Z :4pikachu: (Nevada)
Lycan :4diddy:,:4myfriends: (Nevada)
Ant :4villager: (NorCal)
Draquaza :4charizard: (Nevada)
Vash :4littlemac: (Nevada)
ven :4zelda: (Nevada)
Pollo :4marth: (Nevada)
K0rean :4fox:(Hawaii)



Might attend:
Glutonny :4wario: (If 575 Entrants by March 13th)
tsu :4lucario: (If Funded)
Mew2King :4cloud2: (nobody knows lol)



Notable non-attendees:

KEN :4sonic: (Schoolwork)
Taiheita :4lucas: (Job)
Hyuga :4tlink: (Banned until late July 2017)
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
i was in bad shape Monday so I'll post updates soon

but here's a fun thing; Attendence for Civil War

46/50 PGRv2:
TSM | ZeRo :4diddy:
C9 | Ally :4mario:
NRG | Nairo :4zss:
RNG | Dabuz :rosalina:
MSF | Larry Lurr :4fox:
CLG | VoiD :4sheik:
LG | Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight:
eLv | Mr. R :4sheik:
ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo :4cloud2:,:4marth:
IMT | ANTi :4mario:, :4cloud2::4zss::4metaknight::4diddy::4sheik:
DNG | Kameme :4megaman:
MVG | Salem :4bayonetta:
2GG | komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
P1 | Tweek :4cloud2:
DNL | Marss :4zss:
AS | Zinoto :4diddy:
EvL | Mr. E :4marth:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
InC | WaDi :4mewtwo:
PG | ESAM :4pikachu:
PG | Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
Ranai :4villager:
Circa | 6WX :4sonic:
MVG | ScAtt :4megaman:
FS | Fatality :4falcon:
LooK | Falln :rosalina:
Tyrant :4metaknight:
Earth :4pit:
Vinnie :4sheik:
Samsora :4peach:
Pugwest :4marth:
eLv | False :4marth:, :4sheik:
DNG | Nietono :4diddy:, :4sheik:
MVG | dyr :4diddy:
G-FORCE Oni | Day :4lucario:
PG | MVD :4diddy:
Dath :4robinm:
saj :4bayonetta:
FS | Wrath :4sonic:
UBCEA | Locus :4ryu:
Noble | Ryo :4myfriends:, :4corrinf::4feroy:
Kirihara :rosalina:
E2C | Darkshad :4ryu:
Trela :4ryu:
Ned :4cloud2:, :4zss:


Other notables:

HY | Javi :4cloud2:,:4sheik:
Yatta | JK :4bayonetta:
CL | DSS :4metaknight:
TTN | GrimTurtle :4bayonetta:
CL | Legit :4diddy:
Captain L :4pikachu:
Karna :4sheik:
Konga :4dk:
Rice :4mario:,:4fox:
TeS MMG | Ghost :4fox:
Xzax :4fox:
JJROCKETS :4diddy:
FOW :4ness:
DKwill :4dk:
Angel Cortes :4diddy:
tyroy :4bayonetta:
Remzi :4zss:
Zephyr :4cloud2:
Jtails :4diddy:, :4marth:
CLG | NAKAT :4fox:, :4lucina:
K9sbruce :4diddy:, :4sheik:
LH | Charliedaking :4fox:
2S | Nicko :4shulk:
Aarvark :4villager:
LooK | Ac :4falco:,:4metaknight::4marth:
PG | Zan :4tlink:
Mr. ConCon :4luigi:
LH | Eon :4fox:
NotLast :4peach:
TLTC :4palutena:(???)
Slither2Hunter :4metaknight:
ViceGrip :4bowserjr:
ImHip :4olimar:,:4duckhunt:
Johnny Westside :4samus:
FinalBoss :4bowser:
Snoop :4yoshi:
Ezreal :4pikachu:
Tremendo Dude :4shulk:
Elegant :4luigi:
Skorpio :4robinm:
Fable | 8BitMan :4rob:
Fuwa :4marth:
Kome :4shulk:
iStudying :4greninja:
Bizzarro Flame :4ganondorf: (Melee player, former top 100)
Strong Bad :4diddy:, :4pikachu: (Project M player, top 50)



Notable PR'd players:
L.U.C.Y :4tlink: (Texas)
Depunked :4megaman: (New Mexico)
TonySherbert :rosalina: (Texas)
DJ Fliphop :4diddy: (Texas)
Zan The Man :4falcon:(New Mexico)
Jerm :4robinm: (Texas)
Nurse :4dk: (Saskatchewan)
Braixen :4diddy: (Pacific Northwest)
Z :4pikachu: (Nevada)
Lycan :4diddy:,:4myfriends: (Nevada)
Ant :4villager: (NorCal)
Draquaza :4charizard: (Nevada)
Vash :4littlemac: (Nevada)
ven :4zelda: (Nevada)
Pollo :4marth: (Nevada)
K0rean :4fox:(Hawaii)



Might attend:
Glutonny :4wario: (If 575 Entrants by March 13th)
tsu :4lucario: (If Funded)
Mew2King :4cloud2: (nobody knows lol)



Notable non-attendees:

KEN :4sonic: (Schoolwork)
Taiheita :4lucas: (Job)
Hyuga :4tlink: (Banned until late July 2017)
I'm pretty sure they are trying to get KEN has stated by a tweet from Vayseth after Frosbite.
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
KEN stated on his blog(?) that he couldn't go last week.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Why does Corrin beat Ness so badly, anyways? I've always heard that it's basically because of side B.
Also, can PK Thunder hit Corrin out of up B?
Side b. Ness can't do anything about side b, if Ness shields it and Corrin kicks away he's too slow to do anything about it aside gaining some stage control, he can punish if Corrin kicks towards him but Corrin shouldn't be doing that. Corrin sword is hard for Ness to get by, hardest sword character to get past for Ness in the game imo. Ness' weight and fall speed helps him get combo'd by Corrin hard without being able to use Nair to break out. Counter off stage isn't that big a problem unless your at counter kill percentages because it will just put you over the stage which helps making getting back to stage easier for him. Unless you hit Corrin right at start up of her up b then PK Thunder just gets ate by the move so you lose that tool unlike against other swordies like Cloud or Marth.

Side note countering Ness recovery is a good strategy but don't use it every time because Ness can wait it out and time his PKT2 so where he barrels past you while in super armor allowing him to grab the ledge safely.

Another side note, yeah Ness isn't that affected by platform camping. PK Thunder can poke shields and his up air and bair deal good shield damage and are safe if spaced right. There was a recently discovered string that breaks fully healthy shield against platform campers that Ness can use, maybe someone better than me will showcase it next time at s tournament
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
barrels past you while in super armor
Off topic, remember Super Armor has a limit. If enough knockback is sustained from a move, it will break.

Eg: Yoshi's double jump can get beat out by a charged Bowser Fsmash (though Yoshi has Heavy Armor, an enhanced form of Super Armor, which can take a bigger hit effectively).

Besides, Ness doesn't have Super Armor on his PKT2. He has a few frames of Intangibility IIRC, which is pretty much better than Super Armor in that instance; Intangibility can't be broken.

It mainly depends on the distance between Ness and the character that Counters. I use Marth so I'll use him as an example...

If I use Counter too close to Ness, he will still be Intangible, and the counter-strike will do nothing to him.

It's all about the Countering player reacting to the distance to Ness and not dropping too close to him, or dropping off stage/off the ledge too soon. There's somewhat of an art to mastering the distance, but it's not something Ness can prevent either.
 
Last edited:

soniczx123

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
323
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
NNID
soniczx123
Switch FC
SW-2963-6512-0416
Off topic, remember Super Armor has a limit. If enough knockback is sustained from a move, it will break.

Eg: Yoshi's double jump can get beat out by a partially charged Bowser Fsmash.

Besides, Ness doesn't have Super Armor on his PKT2. He has a few frames of Intangibility IIRC, which is pretty much better than Super Armor in that instance; Intangibility can't be broken.

It mainly depends on the distance between Ness and the character that Counters. I use Marth so I'll use him as an example...

If I use Counter too close to Ness, he will still be Intangible, and the counter-strike will do nothing to him.

It's all about the Countering player reacting to the distance to Ness and not dropping too close to him, or dropping off stage/off the ledge too soon. There's somewhat of an art to mastering the distance, but it's not something Ness can prevent either.
Heavy Armor. Yoshi has Heavy Armor, not Super Armor
 

PK Bash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
196
A few thoughts for what they're worth; apologies for the size of this but I don't want to condense it too much.

Ness vs Corrin:
First things first, Ness needs to establish as much stage control as possible from the start. It's imperative he be able to move forward and backward. I feel people tend to overblow the pin. It does suck because Ness doesn't trade well with the main hit of the kick and it's hard to punish if it hits your shield. We got some options against it though. If they instapin and it whiffs close to Ness (or hits his shield at anything less than max range), you can punish with a fullhop nair and they will be forced to either jump (not great) or just take the hit. If Ness was slightly taller I don't think this would work because he would likely get kebab'd, but as it stands it does. Size matters! Additionally, the hitbox of the kick itself does not cover Corrin's head so it's totally possible to punish the kick as it starts or is coming over if you're miles away for some reason (it's hard though and requires quick thinking), and the weak hit at the end of the move is perfectly fine to trade with. Kick is not that fast so this is feasible if you have a bit of a head start going in the same direction - you don't need much and this is also basically the only way you'll be able to land a grab in neutral. If they go miles away and are unpunishable it's still not particularly bad, because it gives you much-needed stage control.

Other problem aspects include Corrin's nair, which basically rules out airdodging through her in disadvantage and pivot grabs in neutral. Makes dash grabs harder to get as well, can't really block a nair then drop shield and rush in. Grabbing Corrin in general is really hard, like most swordies, and requires conditioning or them mis-spacing poke on shield, Ness landing a uair or something.
If you're a shorthop-happy Ness you will get fair'd out of the sky a lot.
A good Forward Smash is nasty too for obvious reasons.
Edgeguarding Corrin is hard. Dragon Ascent hitboxes beat PKT and the move is so damn big that it's hard to tailwhip with PKT efficiently. Even if you do successfully use the tail, if she's close enough she can use another up b and make it back easily enough since, if you got the tailwhip the first time, your PKT is probably not in a good position to try and get it again. Down Smash can work but is hard to make it work for the same reason, and if you try it while she's on the ledge you'll just get sharked. PK Fire is the most effective imo but that's not perfect either. Best option is probably to punish the ledge getup.

Counter-edgeguarding Ness isn't really that solid with Corrin tbh. When it does work it induces the salt, can confirm, but it's not a particularly consistent option. Ness doesn't stop in place when he activates the counter and he can just sail past and grab the ledge and get i-frames before the Counter hit actually comes out! It's kinda like edgeguarding someone with PK Flash. I get the "what if" but you're better off using a different option - you've probably got the stock anyways.
--
Ness vs platform camping
Not a huge amount to say that hasn't already been said. PKT is helpful on high platforms especially, since nothing else Ness has is really that good. People love to talk about "the noggin" but it's not that big unfortunately, especially vertically, and it's also slow because double jumping is necessary if you're going to pressure BF/DL top platform with it. Leaves you vulnerable too. In short, telegraphed, not safe, doesn't do enough shield damage to be worth the risk imo.
Platform camping can be a pain but I don't think the strategy generally autowins vs Ness. If a Fox decides to platform camp that can be a nightmare, but who heard of a pure-campy Fox? Other characters I'm not too sure, it's never really happened to me with anyone except a Fox who sometimes decides he might try it, nor have I seen a lot of it in other matches.
--
Ness vs Rosa
Bringing this up because I respectfully disagree with Bowserboy3's conclusions. Don't take it personally or anything, I just want to further the discussion because there's a lot that can, and needs, to be said on this one.
First off. Almost every character can gimp Ness really easily if they bothered to try/weren't scared of being hit so I don't know why Gravitational Pull makes this MU so infamous. As it happens the matchup does suck but its not his worst, it's not unwinnable and it's certainly not bottom 5 in the game - all of which I have seen claimed far too often but thankfully not in this thread. But yeah, by your logic regarding Ness' recovery, pretty much every character goes even at worst with Ness bar a select few? That doesn't sit right with me. I'm not implying he blows any characters apart but I like to think he has some advantageous matchups...

Obviously Rosa starts the game in some weird kind of advantage state, which needs to be figured out. Rosalina definitely has an important advantage here. When Ness does hit Luma though it's fairly easy to keep Luma neutralised. Neutral air in particular is really good at keeping them apart. Up air is amazing in neutral here if you can make it work. Trouble is, jumping in isn't really a viable option against Rosa with Luma on deck, and grabbing isn't too great with Luma around either. Often you will resort to using PK Fire and dash attack to deal with Luma which is obviously not great and is indicative of just how limited Ness is in this phase. You will take a chunk of damage when trying to get rid of Luma. You just have to suck it up and make it count when you get the key hits in on Rosa.
If you get Rosa into (bona fida) disadvantage with Luma gone then yeah, Ness really makes it count. Offstage she gets destroyed.
If Rosa gets you into disadvantage with or without Luma, Rosa also really makes it count. If she does have Luma then god help you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrkJlMJkg40
This, I believe, is a really good example of the MU being played as it should, certainly on Ness' part anyway. For anyone who doesn't know the EU scene, yes Tatuman is a very strong and established player, not some random.

So yeah - even if Gravitational Pull didn't exist... I would disagree and still say this MU is a solid advantage for Rosa. Even with GP the MU is not irredeemable by any means. Once the majority of Ness mains finally accept that it's not as bad as they think, we may be making some real headway.

Thanks for reading, it is appreciated.
edit: tidied some formatting to make it a little easier to read
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Off topic, remember Super Armor has a limit. If enough knockback is sustained from a move, it will break.

Eg: Yoshi's double jump can get beat out by a partially charged Bowser Fsmash.

Besides, Ness doesn't have Super Armor on his PKT2. He has a few frames of Intangibility IIRC, which is pretty much better than Super Armor in that instance; Intangibility can't be broken.

It mainly depends on the distance between Ness and the character that Counters. I use Marth so I'll use him as an example...

If I use Counter too close to Ness, he will still be Intangible, and the counter-strike will do nothing to him.

It's all about the Countering player reacting to the distance to Ness and not dropping too close to him, or dropping off stage/off the ledge too soon. There's somewhat of an art to mastering the distance, but it's not something Ness can prevent either.
Oh yeah you are correct about that I use the terms Super armor and intangiblity interchangeably even tho I know they aren't the same lol thanks for the catch.
 
D

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Kome :4shulk: Confirmed for Civil War, and they're 25 entrants from unlocking Gluto.
Best of luck to Kome. Between this and Frame Perfect Series 2 he's set up for a damn good debut in America.

Tremendo Dude will probably drown in pools though.
 

Locke 06

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Insta-pin isn't a getaway free tool at high level. Punishing Corrin on a non-tipper dragon lunge between the pin and the kick (it's at least -10) should be standard if you know the matchup.

Similar to Bayo's point blank witch twist on shield. Something I was really impressed with, when I finally watched Tsu's matches at Frostbite, is that he punished a shielded witch twist with FH up air (which is deadly with Lucario) on reaction.

If Brawl players learned to punish Shuttle Loop and Tornado on shield, Dragon Lunge and Witch Twist shouldn't be getaway free cards for much longer.

Bayo FAir1 is also a tool very few people know how to punish on shield.
 

G. Stache

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Bayo FAir1 is also a tool very few people know how to punish on shield.
Could you actually explain what you can do in this situation if you know? I've seen even high/top level players get punished for not handling fair 1 properly and I personally don't know what options characters generally have against this move. I don't really get much Bayo practice
 

Lord Dio

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M2k aside, who are the remaining 3 PGR players who aren't confirmed for Civil War?
Also spoiler title says it all. If you thought a player's losers run in any previous tournament was harsh.....imagine getting sent to losers in pools. With all but a few of the PGr, and other non PGR players who are very, very good? Getting into top 32 from losers pools would be practically a miracle.

That said, I'm calling it here and now, not a single player who makes it to top 8 will have been in top 32 Losers. Top 8 Losers will all have gotten into Top 32 Winners, and gotten sent to Losers.
 

TDK

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M2k aside, who are the remaining 3 PGR players who aren't confirmed for Civil War?
Also spoiler title says it all. If you thought a player's losers run in any previous tournament was harsh.....imagine getting sent to losers in pools. With all but a few of the PGr, and other non PGR players who are very, very good? Getting into top 32 from losers pools would be practically a miracle.

That said, I'm calling it here and now, not a single player who makes it to top 8 will have been in top 32 Losers. Top 8 Losers will all have gotten into Top 32 Winners, and gotten sent to Losers.
KEN, Hyuga, and Taiheita (Or however you spell it).
 
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ぱみゅ

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Hyuga, Taiheita and KEN.

EDIT: :4greninja:'d
I guess I can make my post more meaningful:
-KEN already stated he can't attend.
-Hyuga is still banned until late july.
-I'm not sure about Taiheita's position.
:196:
 
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Lord Dio

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Another thought popped into my head just now that's probably popped into someone else's earlier but oh well, anyways......

In addition to my gamble and telling how a losers run from pools here would be a major increase to a player's reputation......
Think about all the upsets this tournament holds. There's so many, it would be almost unnatural if there aren't a few upsets.
 

Locke 06

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Could you actually explain what you can do in this situation if you know? I've seen even high/top level players get punished for not handling fair 1 properly and I personally don't know what options characters generally have against this move. I don't really get much Bayo practice
I think of it as Peach float DAir except for with better range/aerial drift and worse frame trapping capability. I haven't actually looked at numbers before just now, but it's obvious to see it's a "problem" every top Bayo poses to their opponents. "Can you deal with this?" and if not, they abuse it and convert into ladders.

I'm just grabbing numbers, but here's the easy part:

FAir - 14f landing lag, autocancels f28/32/35.
FAir1 - 3f active (7-9) - 6f hitlag/3f blockstun - transition f14, end f26
FAir2 - 3f active (7-9) - 5f hitlag/3f blockstun - transition f14, end f33
FAir 3 - 4f active (12-15) - 8f hitlag/5f blockstun - end f40

FAir 2 comes out on f20 at the earliest, meaning there's a 11f punish window between the two on an early hit (9f window minimum?).
Post-FAir1 endlag, what you're worried about are f1 "airdodge ," f4 witch twist, f5 witch time, f6 abk, f7 FAir1, and her stupidly strong DAir as a mixup. These options start coming out on f27 meaning a minimum 16f window if Bayo decides to go that route (that's on bat within).

Outside of those numbers, there's her own positioning (does she drift back or cross up? Is she close to the ground or not -see autocancel-?) and your character's options.

If Megaman lets Bayo get FAir1 on his shield, he's not doing his job correctly. I usually just hold shield and eat the pressure if she gets FAir1 on my shield, but I'm sure I've BAir'd OoS on crossup or rolled out of the situation.

frame data in less than 10 minutes.
 

DanGR

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It's not just about having the frames to punish. Any decent upsmash OoS has enough time to punish it if you somehow know the bayonetta is about to fair your shield instead of nair, bair, empty hop, dabk, witch twist, etc. Yeah, positioning can be a tell, but is your read worth the risk? There's a lot of Bayonetta movement+button combinations you have to take into account. If you upsmash OoS after reacting to seeing something collide with your shield and she nairs instead there's a decent chance you'll just buffer a jump during hitlag and be a sitting duck if you didn't option select an aerial.

Reacting reflexively to Bayonetta hitting your shield risks choosing the wrong response. And remember you have to win neutral more than her for things to add up well. If instead you take a moment to process what hit your shield that usually means you don't have time to punish it directly (at least in my experience). What ends up happening when a player punishes fair1 is it's a soft read that could have gone poorly if they guessed wrong. So you can either take a chance on a read or attempt to reset to neutral (which could possibly net you a whiff punish).
 
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Locke 06

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It's not just about having the frames to punish. Any decent upsmash OoS has enough time to punish it if you somehow know the bayonetta is about to fair your shield instead of nair, bair, empty hop, dabk, witch twist, etc. Yeah, positioning can be a tell, but is your read worth the risk? There's a lot of Bayonetta movement+button combinations you have to take into account. If you upsmash OoS after reacting to seeing something collide with your shield and she nairs instead there's a decent chance you'll just buffer a jump during hitlag and be a sitting duck if you didn't option select an aerial.

Reacting reflexively to Bayonetta hitting your shield risks choosing the wrong response. And remember you have to win neutral more than her for things to add up well. If instead you take a moment to process what hit your shield that usually means you don't have time to punish it directly (at least in my experience).
When Sheik hits your shield with FAir or NAir and you reactively do something, do you ever have a doubt in your mind about "I wonder what hit my shield?"

If not Sheik, then whatever your most played matchup.

Edit: Step 1 is knowing your options vs their options. Step 2 is being able to execute. Step 3 is the multitude of options /mindgames.
 
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Nobie

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The topic of R.O.B. and his relative decline came up a while back.

I think one thing that definitely hurt him in the long run was getting his kill throw nerfed.

Prior to Mewtwo being introduced, it was the strongest up throw in the game. In fact, the original R.O.B.'s up throw was STRONGER than Mewtwo's! I really do believe they weakened R.O.B. so that Mewtwo would have the strongest up throw (one of the Pokemon's signature traits from Melee), and they were afraid of giving Mewtwo an up throw that could kill even earlier. R.O.B. was simply a casualty of this.

While R.O.B. would've been harmed in today's metagame for a number of other reasons (big body, stubby limbs), it would give R.O.B. a more reliable kill option once the Beep Boop starts becoming useless due to percent/rage.
 

soniczx123

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The topic of R.O.B. and his relative decline came up a while back.

I think one thing that definitely hurt him in the long run was getting his kill throw nerfed.

Prior to Mewtwo being introduced, it was the strongest up throw in the game. In fact, the original R.O.B.'s up throw was STRONGER than Mewtwo's! I really do believe they weakened R.O.B. so that Mewtwo would have the strongest up throw (one of the Pokemon's signature traits from Melee), and they were afraid of giving Mewtwo an up throw that could kill even earlier. R.O.B. was simply a casualty of this.

While R.O.B. would've been harmed in today's metagame for a number of other reasons (big body, stubby limbs), it would give R.O.B. a more reliable kill option once the Beep Boop starts becoming useless due to percent/rage.
Could that also be the case for Sonic's Usmash nerf when Lucas was released? Cause Lucas is known for having the strongest usmash in the game and all.
 

ARGHETH

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Could that also be the case for Sonic's Usmash nerf when Lucas was released? Cause Lucas is known for having the strongest usmash in the game and all.
Lucas's Usmash isn't actually the strongest...it's fifth or something. It does 19% on 48/77 knockback which is less than Ganondorf (24%) and Little Mac (21%) at least, along with WFT and Bowser's sweepspotted Usmashes.
 
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Rizen

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Lucas's Usmash isn't actually the strongest...it's fifth or something. It does 19% on 48/77 knockback which is less than Ganondorf (24%) and Little Mac (21%) at least, along with WFT and Bowser's sweepspotted Usmashes.
Ganon's deals 24% but the bkb/kbg is 40/71, lower than Lucas'. I'm not sure who's Usmash kills the earliest but in terms of pure damage, Lucas does fall short.
 

ARGHETH

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Ganon's deals 24% but the bkb/kbg is 40/71, lower than Lucas'. I'm not sure who's Usmash kills the earliest but in terms of pure damage, Lucas does fall short.
It's only 8bkb/6kbg more, which is definitely less overall knockback than the 5 more percent, especially at kill percent. At 100, each percent means ~4/5 more knockback.
 
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DanGR

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When Sheik hits your shield with FAir or NAir and you reactively do something, do you ever have a doubt in your mind about "I wonder what hit my shield?"

If not Sheik, then whatever your most played matchup.

Edit: Step 1 is knowing your options vs their options. Step 2 is being able to execute. Step 3 is the multitude of options /mindgames.
For Sheik it's more cut and dry because she doesn't have as many options out of a short hop, nor does she usually punish quite as hard. On block, I'm reacting more to if she's rising or not and her position around shield than the aerial being used. If she lands on top of me I'm cautious of a cross up bair. Otherwise I usually just presume it's a fair because my standard reactions to fair would work well for nair too. (Though, hard nair usually isn't threatening. For soft lingering nair, if I shield, I have plenty of time to react and strategize anyways.)

Bayonetta on the other hand has access to 5 different plausible aerials, some with varying degrees of movement altering properties, 2 variations of sideb that can hit my char from SH- roll distance away- a frame 4 disjointed upb that hits on both sides, and Witch Time that kills my main at 60%. Most of these are combo starters.
 
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|RK|

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Does anyone know if dashes have IASA frames or something? Kirby's dash length is shorter than Marth's, and they have the same dash speed, yet Kirby's dashdance is very slightly slower. I don't know what other variable could affect things here.

Also, Roy has a slower dash speed than Sheik and a longer dash length... but a faster dash dance.
 
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