Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[BSP]

I think of it as Peach float DAir except for with better range/aerial drift and worse frame trapping capability. I haven't actually looked at numbers before just now, but it's obvious to see it's a "problem" every top Bayo poses to their opponents. "Can you deal with this?" and if not, they abuse it and convert into ladders.

I'm just grabbing numbers, but here's the easy part:

FAir - 14f landing lag, autocancels f28/32/35.
FAir1 - 3f active (7-9) - 6f hitlag/3f blockstun - transition f14, end f26
FAir2 - 3f active (7-9) - 5f hitlag/3f blockstun - transition f14, end f33
FAir 3 - 4f active (12-15) - 8f hitlag/5f blockstun - end f40

FAir 2 comes out on f20 at the earliest, meaning there's a 11f punish window between the two on an early hit (9f window minimum?).
Post-FAir1 endlag, what you're worried about are f1 "airdodge ," f4 witch twist, f5 witch time, f6 abk, f7 FAir1, and her stupidly strong DAir as a mixup. These options start coming out on f27 meaning a minimum 16f window if Bayo decides to go that route (that's on bat within).

Outside of those numbers, there's her own positioning (does she drift back or cross up? Is she close to the ground or not -see autocancel-?) and your character's options.

If Megaman lets Bayo get FAir1 on his shield, he's not doing his job correctly. I usually just hold shield and eat the pressure if she gets FAir1 on my shield, but I'm sure I've BAir'd OoS on crossup or rolled out of the situation.

frame data in less than 10 minutes.

I got that Bayo is -9 vs OOS actions for Fair 1 -> Fair 2 as soon as possible.

 

[|RK|]

Oh, btw - Tsu vs Abadango from SFW is up:

 

[Luco]

Oh wow. I wasn't expecting this. A looooot of stuff that could theoretically be responded to, but I think the conversation is beginning to move on and I kind of like the array of responses that came to this discussion more than I would enjoy my own response to individual points (which isn't to say I'm not confident in them, but alas).

If you're really looking for something from me, I guess all I'd say is Swampy said something that really hit home for me; we're masters of simplifying yet over-analysing this game. At the end of the day the game is nuanced, interactions are informed and made different by things such as timing, movement, conditioning and more obvious things like stage choices and rulesets. While I disagree with several points My_T and others made, I do so knowing there is validity to their points under a certain set of conditions, just as there are to mine. The meta we play in is the meta we create. But the benefit of this thread is that by the power of people we can gain a more wholistic viewpoint of a given topic, because different people think out different match-ups and playstyles, well, differently.

Sorry for something that might come off a bit cryptic, but I think this says what I want it to say. Regardless, thanks for the support in this discussion, and thanks to everyone who contributed. Really.

Both Luco and My_T make solid points tbh and you'd be a fool to completely ignore one of them. One post is articulated better and may be more agreeable but that is no reason to dismiss the valid observations of the other. Props to My_T for having the balls to dispute the established player. Game can't grow if everyone just agrees with the first thing that's said/subscribes to conventional wisdom without doing a bit of self-thinking and assessment as to why it holds in practice. You have to be prepared to see the other side of the coin even if you don't agree with it.
Anyway.

Despite a clear difference in opinion as to how bad it is, they're basically saying a similar thing regarding Cloud. It is a hard matchup and many "classic" Ness options are effectively off-limits (bad pun absolutely intended). Luco isn't saying Ness wins - optimism does not have to be the same thing as taking leave of your senses - but I feel My_T may be overpushing it a bit with the "garbage MU"assessment. To me a garbage MU would be one you can't win and if you take this post in isolation, that would be the impression you would get. It gives the impression that Cloud shuts down every available option to Ness at any point in neutral and he can never get anything going unless he gets lucky, which isn't true. Cloud playing his game does open up a few potential holes Ness can exploit, you just need to know what you can force and when. Luco alluded to this with his "non-interactive sequences" point. It's vague and difficult to describe, but it's legitimate. Basically you need to pick your moments, but it shouldn't be a pick-a-button-and-pray-it-works guessing game.

Obviously, this means that you've got to have a pretty damn good understanding of Cloud's neutral as well as the player's habits, preferred options and such. Even if you do you're not winning neutral as often as he is, but that's offset somewhat by Ness' strong advantage state. I don't agree with the assertion that Cloud limits Ness' punish game significantly more than other MUs and Ness maintains advantage state decently well vs Cloud even when there are no true followups. Obviously though it's easy to lose advantage and then you're in an uphill struggle again. But I don't really think Cloud has some easy win button to escape vs Ness. How much Ness gets out of advantage comes down to awareness on Ness' part.

Obviously Cloud bodies Ness basically for free in advantage, and because he's a very popular character that's far more capable of winning neutral much more often and getting into that advantage state, this is always going to be a major problem MU. I don't think anyone is saying "y'know, Ness actually goes even with or beats Cloud". At least I HOPE not. But I will echo Luco's final point (although I can't speak for him obviously) where he says Ness isn't given the credit he's due in many MUs. I've said it before and I stand by it, Ness doesn't have a single unwinnable MU in theory, or at least, it hasn't been proven otherwise yet.

(Quick word on Bayo, whether or not you think Ness has an advantage you can't deny that even or close to even with Bayo is huge, especially for a mid tier. Also Luco I'd love to see your logic for Mewtwo potentially being "about even" in some form (post, pm, twitter link, VODs, whatever) if you find the time, because imo that MU is dodgy.)

As an aside, if you want to see real Ness optimism in it's purest form, Mr R put out a Sheik MU chart on Twitter yesterday and according to him, Ness is only +1 to Sheik so yeah. Shoutouts to S1 I suppose. I really want him to be right though!

I will say my thoughts on Mewtwo are less focused than my thoughts on Cloud, but I'll do some research on it and maybe give it a cycle or so, maybe I can inspire another discussion with it lol! Sorry to delay you, hassle me about it and I'll get to it, promise. :>

Also as it so happens Mr R isn't the only one who thinks that; S1 does, too.

EDIT: Oh, and yes, I am confirmed for BAM 9! Come and watch us when that happens guys, seeing some of you on stream chat would be a dream. <3

 

[TDK]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

There's a Mii main in Winners Quarters of this week's WNF.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So, I got KO'd twice (by two different players I will add) by that new (new to the public eye at least) Diddy zero to death at my weekly last night.

Yes, I did mix up my DI. They were able to follow it.

When do we start considering this an actual threat?

Lets just say it's a good job I use Rosalina and have a pocket Peach (floaty characters that can avoid it). I don't think I'm going Marth or Bayonetta (and ZSS for that matter) against Diddy ever again.

 

[Floor]

In my opinion 0-death combos are never to be considered a non-threat. Maybe below tournament level, you can safely ignore Peach infinites and Diddy's "new" combo... but you always have to watch out for this kind of stuff no matter what, or better yet, practice these combos if you main a character who has them.

To be honest I'm kind of sad about the limits my character has with these flashy 0-death or OP combos. The best Lucina has is falling upair>footstool> dair lock which honestly isnt that impressive. If I mained a character like Peach (to be honest I'm thinking about it) then practicing her infinites is a well-worth investment. These combos shouldn't be relied upon, but it only takes getting footstool>disabled once for you to reconsider how good Mewtwo is.

 

[soniczx123]

So, I got KO'd twice (by two different players I will add) by that new (new to the public eye at least) Diddy zero to death at my weekly last night.

Yes, I did mix up my DI. They were able to follow it.

When do we start considering this an actual threat?

Lets just say it's a good job I use Rosalina and have a pocket Peach (floaty characters that can avoid it). I don't think I'm going Marth or Bayonetta (and ZSS for that matter) against Diddy ever again.

Are there any VODs?? :^)

 

[Bowserboy3]

In my opinion 0-death combos are never to be considered a non-threat. Maybe below tournament level, you can safely ignore Peach infinites and Diddy's "new" combo... but you always have to watch out for this kind of stuff no matter what, or better yet, practice these combos if you main a character who has them.

To be honest I'm kind of sad about the limits my character has with these flashy 0-death or OP combos. The best Lucina has is falling upair>footstool> dair lock which honestly isnt that impressive. If I mained a character like Peach (to be honest I'm thinking about it) then practicing her infinites is a well-worth investment. These combos shouldn't be relied upon, but it only takes getting footstool>disabled once for you to reconsider how good Mewtwo is.

Perhaps the difference here is that Diddy's "new" combo isn't very technical and is a relatively easy one to perform, unlike say, Peach's, which require a huge amount of skill to perform consistently.

Are there any VODs?? :^)

Unfortunately (luckily for me) no, so I can't show y'all me getting bodied.

Just imagine a Marth or Bayonetta getting bodied by said combo, and user of said characters crying while doing so.

 

[verbatim]

Peach's is also luck based (having to pull certain items).

 

[TDK]

Peach has an infinite that works with any Turnip. It's not Practical, but it does exist.

 

[Key313]

If you can land a dtilt or dair which can lead into a footstool you can start turnip loops. There is enough time after a sour nair to pull a turnip and toss it down or take the even quicker option by z-dropping. You can also start them by a footstool oos but I have not messed with that. Turnips disappear after awhile (6 reps if doing a normal down toss and catching with nair.) and the nair itself will stop locking around 60%. Really depends on the opponent though as Bowser stops being locked at 80% while Jigglypuff is 56% with the 6% nair sourspot. There is a 5% one as well. They are not infinite but a lot of damage can come from it.

Basic turnip loops are not really impractical but there are some other things that could look that way.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Fun fact: The GeO combo was first done on me. At Hidden Bosses 2, the player GeO and I were talking mad mess to each other and then we played tons of friendlies to hash out any "problems". We did and I lost a lot of them because he said he's been working on it, but never could pull the tech out in tourney. Eventually he polished it up in our games, and then he showed it to Zinoto (dunno how that part came to be as we live in different states). So yeah.

 

[Das Koopa]

FEBRUARY 2017 DATA ANALYSIS
Written by Das_Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero_Destroyer

Changes from previous month:

Other +1.8%
Greninja +1.3%
Ryu +0.8%
Diddy Kong +0.6%
Cloud +0.6%
Mega Man +0.5%
Corrin +0.4%
Sonic +0.3%
Zero Suit Samus +0.3%
Olimar +0.2%
Meta Knight +0.2%
Mewtwo +0.2%
Donkey Kong +0.1%
Fox = 5.0%
Rosalina & Luma = 3.5%
Mario -0.1%
Marth -0.1%
Toon Link -0.1%
Ness -0.1%
Villager -0.3%
Pikachu -0.3%
Captain Falcon -0.3%
Sheik -0.3%
R.O.B. -0.4%
Lucario -0.4%
Bowser -0.4%
Peach -0.5%
Luigi -0.8%
Duck Hunt -1%
Bayonetta -1.6%


THE FOUR HORSEMEN

At this point, it would be worth pointing out that Sheik, Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, and Cloud maintain the best scores in the game. Bayonetta had a steep drop-off from the previous month - a backing built upon her unusually good performance at GENESIS 4 - and it could be extrapolated that Cloud underwent a similar effect with Midwest Mayhem Saga, as he now takes the 1st position.

It's been pointed out, however, that Cloud has peaks and valleys. Midwest Mayhem Saga was the best the character had ever performed at a national, but two weeks later - and likely why few are talking about Cloud right now - marked the single worst performance Cloud has endured in months.

All 5 of his most prominent users - komorikiri, Mew2King, MKLeo, Tweek, and Ned horribly under performed during the same weekend. Mew2King placed 9th at a Florida super-regional (losing to Child and DJ Jack), komorikiri placed a familiar 17th (losing to Salem and Zinoto), Tweek placed a particularly poor 33rd (losing to tsu and Myran), MKLeo placed 13th (losing to Kameme and VoiD), and Ned placed 17th (losing to ZeRo and Kirihara.)

The only thing you can extrapolate from this is that the character is inconsistent, but it's worth pointing out that almost every prominent Cloud player has a pocket or a very solid secondary, or co-main.

Cloud however does heavily benefit as a secondary at all levels of play, and still does very well at the regional level - especially in Japan and Europe.

Diddy Kong and Sheik are relatively stable characters that do well at all levels of play. Both have been shy of the top spots for some months now due to the 5.99 craze, but both appear to be far more consistent in high level tournament play. Sheik has less regional representation than Diddy Kong does, which may explain the small gap between her and the rest of the more-or-less even cast.


A FALSE VACUUM (OF EGGS)

Yoshi has seen a notable downturn. Out of over 1000 points distributed, Yoshi makes up 16.5 after two months. Despite rare national success, Yoshi had at least seen noteworthy regional successes - but this seems to be diminishing. As with a noted increase from Greninja (who was at 0.1% last month), this could change.


REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Greninja saw a massive bump this month - from 0.1% to 1.4%, the largest single character jump of the month. Some's success at Frostbite 2017 was a contributing factor, but a lot of Greninja's better mains got out this month, and the regional backing has helped salvage his poor scores from January and placed him into a solid 16th. Placement numbers themselves don't matter as much as the gaps of separation, mind you, but Greninja appears to be a solid mid-tier with more potential in the future to break out if his mains reach Some's level.

A MISSING FEW

After 2 months, 50/58 characters have scored at least one point. The missing eight:

-Dr. Mario
-Dark Pit
-Mii Gunner
-Mii Swordfighter
-Mii Brawler
-Jigglypuff
-Zelda
-Bowser Jr.

Some of these aren't surprising.

Dr. Mario and Dark Pit historically score poorly due to contextually important reasons related to their counterparts. Dr. Mario is a really bad version of Mario - few to no perks exist to using him, and if you've ever asked "I wish Doc got buffs", every dream you'd ever envision of a buffed Doc exists as the first character on the select screen. Meanwhile, Dark Pit is a Pit with bad arrows, and Pit himself is a very unpopular mid-tier who's success exists almost entirely on the backs of Earth and Kuro.

None of the Miis were ever popular post-customs. A lot of people theorize Brawler 1111 could maybe be the worst character in the game. Some people thing Swordfighter is slightly better/worse, but regardless tend to agree they sink low together.

The weight of no For Glory online support or popular figures using these characters leads to a dearth in usage, as many charts have shown - meaning few people play them online or off, and little usage combined with none of them being particularly remarkable as characters paints a very grim picture for their results numbers.

Mii Gunner has seen light amounts of success online through Kodystri and Flama, but due to the stupidly high number of self-DQs in Online tournaments, inherent online lag, and connection problems that often interfere with sets, I don't use online tournaments in my system.

As it stands, 5/8 all have good excuses for not being there. 3, however, are non-clone, standard-packaged characters with unique movesets.

-Jigglypuff is agreed to be a terrible character at this point. She's so unstable that there's no real definitive "Best Puff" because Puff is bad and Puff mains rarely escape pools even at low-level regional events. Even when I counted the full Top 16 of every event I used, Jigglypuff scored under 20 points in the course of 10 months. Even Japan, land of bizarre breakout mid/low tier specialists and home to the best concentration of mid/low tier players in the world, doesn't have a breakout Puff - they tend to drown in Bo1 RR pools.

-Zelda is also generally agreed to be bad, first most by her mains if Reddit flairs are to be believed. I'm a little surprised Ganondorf scored (through Ray Kalm) before Zelda did, and I've seen people theorizing that the number of notable Zelda mains (Onpu, Ven, Purple Guy) demonstrates she might be more low-tier than bottom tier, but she's void of any success so far this year.

-Bowser Jr. is the obvious outlier. His total lack of success this year is somewhat unusual, but it could be his mains not going out to events. He's a very flawed character with some decent tools on him and I find it hard to believe he's bottom 5, but we'll see what the data presents as time goes on - his mains simply may have passed him by in favor of better characters. Tweek dropping him was a huge blow to the character, but this is the weakest streak for the character in a long, long time.


FULL RESULTS:

Spoiler: Category 1-5

Cloud: 300.5
Diddy Kong: 294.5
Bayonetta: 266
Sheik: 235.5
Fox: 168.5
Sonic: 160
Mario: 146.5
Mewtwo: 127.5
Rosalina & Luma: 118.5
Marth: 114
Zero Suit Samus: 112
Ryu: 99
Meta Knight: 92.5
Captain Falcon: 69.5
Peach: 68.5
Greninja: 57.5
Donkey Kong: 54
Ness: 53
Lucario: 52.5
Villager: 51
Corrin: 50
Luigi: 50
Toon Link: 49.5
Olimar: 46.5
Duck Hunt: 44
Pikachu: 42.5
Mega Man: 42
R.O.B.: 38
Bowser: 34.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 33
Pit: 28.5
Shulk: 28
Lucina: 25
Robin: 23
Lucas: 22
Link: 21
Samus: 21
Yoshi: 16.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
Wario: 14
Ike: 13.5
Little Mac: 12.5
Falco: 11.5
Pac-Man: 11
Roy: 10
Palutena: 7.5
Charizard: 6
Kirby: 2
King Dedede: 1
Ganondorf: 1

Results threads:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Previous month:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-247#post-21648556

 

[TDK]

Pit himself is a very unpopular mid-tier who's success exists almost entirely on the backs of Earth and Kuro.

This is probably a lot to ask, but what would Pit's score look like if you removed Earth and Kuro from the euqation? That'd be interesting to see, at least to me.

 

[|RK|]

This is probably a lot to ask, but what would Pit's score look like if you removed Earth and Kuro from the euqation? That'd be interesting to see, at least to me.

And ZeRo Diddy!!!

 

[Das Koopa]

If Civil War Saga hits 600 entrants by March 13th HIKARU will come. If it its 625 Shuton will come.

The first 4 entrant milestones (Fuwa, iStudying, Fuwa, Glutonny) all got confirmed btw. So this event is ridiculously stacked.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The only thing you can extrapolate from this is that the character is inconsistent[...]

Could be the players though. At top level it's often more about individual plays and reads rather than the character pick (seeing how most of them play top tiers or high tiers anyway), and even bad MUs are often won by the better player (or the player who just happened to play better that set).

Placement numbers themselves don't matter as much as the gaps of separation, mind you, but Greninja appears to be a solid mid-tier with more potential in the future to break out if his mains reach Some's level.

Mid-tier? How do you figure? Greninja's results are pretty good, his MU chart is pretty good, and 4BR voted him high tier.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

And ZeRo Diddy!!!

Diddy gets decent results even without ZeRo. Having players like Nienoto and Zinoto consistently doing well is plenty

 

[Lord Dio]

I'm a little surprised Ganondorf scored (through Ray Kalm)

Feels like more Ganons appeared at tournaments than previously. They still drowned for the most part, but people are going to more tournaments now, though it can probably be attributed to ray kalm.
Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if Ganon starts appearing more, even just by a little bit, if Bizarro does well at Civil War.

Bizarro's coming to Sm4sh Ganon has left me in a state of shock and awe. I feel like Ganon is going to be underrated, considering Elegant's attempt to solo Ganon at that one MSM, and it makes me curious to see how one of Ganon's best Melee representatives adapts to his sm4sh characteristics, particularly Ganon's speed.

 

[Floor]

You have to wonder how much potential Ganondorf has. I mean of course it isn't much but is he really bottom 3? (Yeah, probably). I find it interesting that the Ganondorf discord is undefeated last time i checked. Now online Crew Battles are very different than tournaments, but you have to wonder how well Ganondorfs would do if the right players went to more tournaments.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ganon in lag is kinda filthy so I definitely wouldn't put much stock into that.
Every Discord CB I've seen has lag play a factor.

 

[Aaron1997]

Floor They were in till the Pac's came and beat them. Funny enough that the Pac's had a huge streak till guess who. The Mac's beat us imao. We Rematched them and destroyed them. Pac also seems to do better in lag but for whatever reason, I've always hated the lag. It hurts my style to much. Lag is a B****

 

[Lord Dio]

You have to wonder how much potential Ganondorf has. I mean of course it isn't much but is he really bottom 3? (Yeah, probably).

Dedede and Zelda are obvious, but the glaring questions are (io):
Who is the 3rd character who Ganon is better than?
Why isn't his potential being utilized (excepting top ganons like ray and vermanubis)?

The first of those two, that depends on them and their perspective on that tier.
The second question.......it feels like Ganon is optimized best when players use him as a bait and punish character, the way he was constructed, while occasionally leavign that playstyle and going aggressive once they have a good opportunity for damage, but for the most part a bait and punish character. Essentially, Ganon seems to do well when he is played almost like a worse version of Bowser. I looked over a few matches from Ganonst at tournaments like S@x, and noticed that one of the ganons I was observing was playing incredibly aggressive, constantly throwing out side-bs, and constantly getting punished for it, only really winning due to rage, a nice combo, and iirc a ganoncide or two. Playing constantly aggressive with Ganondorf is incredibly difficult, Lord knows how many times I've done that (both online and playing locally) and been told it's a bad idea.

I feel that Ganondorf's real potential lies in the threat he poses when he has a good deal of rage (A Ganon with over 100% is practically Lucario at 130%), and most importantly, a toolkit centered around shieldbreak punishes. Ganon has multiple moves that can kill at 30-40%, but are horrible unless used as a shield break punish. But I don't really see any Ganons going for a shield pressure playstyle.

 

[Floor]

Dedede and Zelda are obvious, but the glaring questions are (io):
Who is the 3rd character who Ganon is better than?
Why isn't his potential being utilized (excepting top ganons like ray and vermanubis)?

The first of those two, that depends on them and their perspective on that tier.
The second question.......it feels like Ganon is optimized best when players use him as a bait and punish character, the way he was constructed, while occasionally leavign that playstyle and going aggressive once they have a good opportunity for damage, but for the most part a bait and punish character. Essentially, Ganon seems to do well when he is played almost like a worse version of Bowser. I looked over a few matches from Ganonst at tournaments like S@x, and noticed that one of the ganons I was observing was playing incredibly aggressive, constantly throwing out side-bs, and constantly getting punished for it, only really winning due to rage, a nice combo, and iirc a ganoncide or two. Playing constantly aggressive with Ganondorf is incredibly difficult, Lord knows how many times I've done that (both online and playing locally) and been told it's a bad idea.

I feel that Ganondorf's real potential lies in the threat he poses when he has a good deal of rage (A Ganon with over 100% is practically Lucario at 130%), and most importantly, a toolkit centered around shieldbreak punishes. Ganon has multiple moves that can kill at 30-40%, but are horrible unless used as a shield break punish. But I don't really see any Ganons going for a shield pressure playstyle.

I think Ganondorf is the second worst character in the game. Just want to be clear here. It's just interesting to me to think that such a bad character is getting good results in an organized online setting (but yeah it is laggy) and that maybe these results show evidence that he could rise one or two spots in due time.

There's a decent Ganondorf at my local who plays defensively and it's working until he has to fight a Mewtwo or a projectile/ defensive character. To be honest I didn't know others use him aggresively.

 

[Das Koopa]

March week 1 tournies

Spoiler: No Fun Allowed (March 5th) (South) (169 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: Elegant
3rd: Aarvark
4th: Cosmos
5th: Grimturtle
5th: Lima
7th: Twi
7th: Gnes
9th: Jumbolias ,
9th: Fatality
9th: Illusion.
9th: Dragonite
13th: P2P With Gibus ,
13th: BC
13th: Asa ,
13th: SlippyT

Spoiler: Cen-Cal Standoff (March 4th) (Central California) (106 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: ImHip
2nd: Jtails
3rd: IC
4th: ApologyMan
5th: NotLast
5th: Legit
7th: Slither2Hunter
7th: Bubbleyumm

*Ghost placed 9th.

Spoiler: Invasion 13 (March 4th) (New England) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MattyG
2nd: LingLing
3rd: Dark Wizzy
4th: Pelca

Spoiler: REFLECT 4 (March 4th) (Florida) (64 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Salem
2nd: Myran
3rd: dyr ,
4th: Rideae

Spoiler: UCSD Photon Quarterlies #4 (March 5th) (Southern California) (45 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Falln ,
2nd: Ito
3rd: IC
4th: Jingen

*Phoenix placed 7th

Spoiler: Beachcon 2017 (March 5th) (Southern California) (86 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Slither2Hunter
2nd: MastaMario
3rd: Regalia
4th: Bran

 

[Rizen]

Dedede and Zelda are obvious, but the glaring questions are (io):
Who is the 3rd character who Ganon is better than? 1


The first of those two, that depends on them and their perspective on that tier.
The second question.......it feels like Ganon is optimized best when players use him as a bait and punish character, the way he was constructed, while occasionally leavign that playstyle and going aggressive once they have a good opportunity for damage, but for the most part a bait and punish character. Essentially, Ganon seems to do well when he is played almost like a worse version of Bowser. I looked over a few matches from Ganonst at tournaments like S@x, and noticed that one of the ganons I was observing was playing incredibly aggressive, constantly throwing out side-bs, and constantly getting punished for it, only really winning due to rage, a nice combo, and iirc a ganoncide or two. Playing constantly aggressive with Ganondorf is incredibly difficult, Lord knows how many times I've done that (both online and playing locally) and been told it's a bad idea. 2

I feel that Ganondorf's real potential lies in the threat he poses when he has a good deal of rage (A Ganon with over 100% is practically Lucario at 130%), and most importantly, a toolkit centered around shieldbreak punishes. Ganon has multiple moves that can kill at 30-40%, but are horrible unless used as a shield break punish. But I don't really see any Ganons going for a shield pressure playstyle. 3

1 and . IMO is better than . DDD has some ledge trap setups and can actually tank a ton of damage and recover.
2 Ganon's very fear based; you mess up vs him and you die. In that sense you sort of have to play aggressively while looking for openings or the opponents will cheese you to death. He plays very differently from Bowser, who's a grappler.
3 Ganon doesn't benefit as much from rage as he would with a better recovery. You eat a strong hit/smash and die at 130% from simply not being able to make it back to the stage. His weight does let him survive star KO moves longer than most but ladders are really good in this game too :/

 

[outfoxd]

Fun fact: The GeO combo was first done on me. At Hidden Bosses 2, the player GeO and I were talking mad mess to each other and then we played tons of friendlies to hash out any "problems". We did and I lost a lot of them because he said he's been working on it, but never could pull the tech out in tourney. Eventually he polished it up in our games, and then he showed it to Zinoto (dunno how that part came to be as we live in different states). So yeah.

Ge0 used to play with Zino at his place every week with a group of rapidly improving Michiganders and he showed him there, I believe.

 

[Deleted member]

FEBRUARY 2017 DATA ANALYSIS
Written by Das_Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero_Destroyer

Changes from previous month:

Other +1.8%
Greninja +1.3%
Ryu +0.8%
Diddy Kong +0.6%
Cloud +0.6%
Mega Man +0.5%
Corrin +0.4%
Sonic +0.3%
Zero Suit Samus +0.3%
Olimar +0.2%
Meta Knight +0.2%
Mewtwo +0.2%
Donkey Kong +0.1%
Fox = 5.0%
Rosalina & Luma = 3.5%
Mario -0.1%
Marth -0.1%
Toon Link -0.1%
Ness -0.1%
Villager -0.3%
Pikachu -0.3%
Captain Falcon -0.3%
Sheik -0.3%
R.O.B. -0.4%
Lucario -0.4%
Bowser -0.4%
Peach -0.5%
Luigi -0.8%
Duck Hunt -1%
Bayonetta -1.6%


THE FOUR HORSEMEN

At this point, it would be worth pointing out that Sheik, Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, and Cloud maintain the best scores in the game. Bayonetta had a steep drop-off from the previous month - a backing built upon her unusually good performance at GENESIS 4 - and it could be extrapolated that Cloud underwent a similar effect with Midwest Mayhem Saga, as he now takes the 1st position.

It's been pointed out, however, that Cloud has peaks and valleys. Midwest Mayhem Saga was the best the character had ever performed at a national, but two weeks later - and likely why few are talking about Cloud right now - marked the single worst performance Cloud has endured in months.

All 5 of his most prominent users - komorikiri, Mew2King, MKLeo, Tweek, and Ned horribly under performed during the same weekend. Mew2King placed 9th at a Florida super-regional (losing to Child and DJ Jack), komorikiri placed a familiar 17th (losing to Salem and Zinoto), Tweek placed a particularly poor 33rd (losing to tsu and Myran), MKLeo placed 13th (losing to Kameme and VoiD), and Ned placed 17th (losing to ZeRo and Kirihara.)

The only thing you can extrapolate from this is that the character is inconsistent, but it's worth pointing out that almost every prominent Cloud player has a pocket or a very solid secondary, or co-main.

Cloud however does heavily benefit as a secondary at all levels of play, and still does very well at the regional level - especially in Japan and Europe.

Diddy Kong and Sheik are relatively stable characters that do well at all levels of play. Both have been shy of the top spots for some months now due to the 5.99 craze, but both appear to be far more consistent in high level tournament play. Sheik has less regional representation than Diddy Kong does, which may explain the small gap between her and the rest of the more-or-less even cast.


A FALSE VACUUM (OF EGGS)

Yoshi has seen a notable downturn. Out of over 1000 points distributed, Yoshi makes up 16.5 after two months. Despite rare national success, Yoshi had at least seen noteworthy regional successes - but this seems to be diminishing. As with a noted increase from Greninja (who was at 0.1% last month), this could change.


REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Greninja saw a massive bump this month - from 0.1% to 1.4%, the largest single character jump of the month. Some's success at Frostbite 2017 was a contributing factor, but a lot of Greninja's better mains got out this month, and the regional backing has helped salvage his poor scores from January and placed him into a solid 16th. Placement numbers themselves don't matter as much as the gaps of separation, mind you, but Greninja appears to be a solid mid-tier with more potential in the future to break out if his mains reach Some's level.

A MISSING FEW

After 2 months, 50/58 characters have scored at least one point. The missing eight:

-Dr. Mario
-Dark Pit
-Mii Gunner
-Mii Swordfighter
-Mii Brawler
-Jigglypuff
-Zelda
-Bowser Jr.

Some of these aren't surprising.

Dr. Mario and Dark Pit historically score poorly due to contextually important reasons related to their counterparts. Dr. Mario is a really bad version of Mario - few to no perks exist to using him, and if you've ever asked "I wish Doc got buffs", every dream you'd ever envision of a buffed Doc exists as the first character on the select screen. Meanwhile, Dark Pit is a Pit with bad arrows, and Pit himself is a very unpopular mid-tier who's success exists almost entirely on the backs of Earth and Kuro.

None of the Miis were ever popular post-customs. A lot of people theorize Brawler 1111 could maybe be the worst character in the game. Some people thing Swordfighter is slightly better/worse, but regardless tend to agree they sink low together.

The weight of no For Glory online support or popular figures using these characters leads to a dearth in usage, as many charts have shown - meaning few people play them online or off, and little usage combined with none of them being particularly remarkable as characters paints a very grim picture for their results numbers.

Mii Gunner has seen light amounts of success online through Kodystri and Flama, but due to the stupidly high number of self-DQs in Online tournaments, inherent online lag, and connection problems that often interfere with sets, I don't use online tournaments in my system.

As it stands, 5/8 all have good excuses for not being there. 3, however, are non-clone, standard-packaged characters with unique movesets.

-Jigglypuff is agreed to be a terrible character at this point. She's so unstable that there's no real definitive "Best Puff" because Puff is bad and Puff mains rarely escape pools even at low-level regional events. Even when I counted the full Top 16 of every event I used, Jigglypuff scored under 20 points in the course of 10 months. Even Japan, land of bizarre breakout mid/low tier specialists and home to the best concentration of mid/low tier players in the world, doesn't have a breakout Puff - they tend to drown in Bo1 RR pools.

-Zelda is also generally agreed to be bad, first most by her mains if Reddit flairs are to be believed. I'm a little surprised Ganondorf scored (through Ray Kalm) before Zelda did, and I've seen people theorizing that the number of notable Zelda mains (Onpu, Ven, Purple Guy) demonstrates she might be more low-tier than bottom tier, but she's void of any success so far this year.

-Bowser Jr. is the obvious outlier. His total lack of success this year is somewhat unusual, but it could be his mains not going out to events. He's a very flawed character with some decent tools on him and I find it hard to believe he's bottom 5, but we'll see what the data presents as time goes on - his mains simply may have passed him by in favor of better characters. Tweek dropping him was a huge blow to the character, but this is the weakest streak for the character in a long, long time.


FULL RESULTS:

Spoiler: Category 1-5

Cloud: 300.5
Diddy Kong: 294.5
Bayonetta: 266
Sheik: 235.5
Fox: 168.5
Sonic: 160
Mario: 146.5
Mewtwo: 127.5
Rosalina & Luma: 118.5
Marth: 114
Zero Suit Samus: 112
Ryu: 99
Meta Knight: 92.5
Captain Falcon: 69.5
Peach: 68.5
Greninja: 57.5
Donkey Kong: 54
Ness: 53
Lucario: 52.5
Villager: 51
Corrin: 50
Luigi: 50
Toon Link: 49.5
Olimar: 46.5
Duck Hunt: 44
Pikachu: 42.5
Mega Man: 42
R.O.B.: 38
Bowser: 34.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 33
Pit: 28.5
Shulk: 28
Lucina: 25
Robin: 23
Lucas: 22
Link: 21
Samus: 21
Yoshi: 16.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
Wario: 14
Ike: 13.5
Little Mac: 12.5
Falco: 11.5
Pac-Man: 11
Roy: 10
Palutena: 7.5
Charizard: 6
Kirby: 2
King Dedede: 1
Ganondorf: 1

Results threads:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Previous month:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-247#post-21648556

Pretty dope to see that > in terms of results as of now. Shulk usually was in the 1-16 tier of terms of results, but I guess it was propelled by M's performance at BEAST among other players' doings.

 

[|RK|]

Diddy gets decent results even without ZeRo. Having players like Nienoto and Zinoto consistently doing well is plenty

Right, but how good are Diddy's results without ZeRo there? He's very much head and shoulders above everyone else.

 

[Game7a1]

Spoiler: Invasion 13 (March 4th) (New England) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MattyG
2nd: LingLing
3rd: Dark Wizzy
4th: Pelca

Minor correction, but Pelca plays Diddy, not Pikachu.

 

[ARISTOS]

Right, but how good are Diddy's results without ZeRo there? He's very much head and shoulders above everyone else.

Diddy's results are fantastic even when factoring out ZeRo.

Remove ZeRo and he ends up with 4 mains in the PGR v2 top 50, on par with Bayo and Cloud. In Das Koopa Orion Ranking, Diddy has one less player on the ranking than Sheik/Bayo, and two less than Cloud.

 

[|RK|]

Diddy's results are fantastic even when factoring out ZeRo.

Remove ZeRo and he ends up with 4 mains in the PGR v2 top 50, on par with Bayo and Cloud. In Das Koopa Orion Ranking, Diddy has one less player on the ranking than Sheik/Bayo, and two less than Cloud.

Points, not players. What are the *results* without ZeRo. Does anyone know how this is calculated? I might see for myself on a free afternoon.

 

[Das Koopa]

ZeRo contributes 50 points to Diddy's 294.5 score. 17% to Diddy's entire score.

Earth & Kuro contribute 26 to Pit's 28.5 score. 91.2%.


Oh, and, upcoming tournies this weekend:

-Final Round XX (Southeast)
-Karisuma 12 (Chubu) (Tonight!)
-Hope R! (Tristate)
-Anomaly (Tristate)

OrionRank Only:
-PAX Arena at PAX East 2017 (8 invitees)

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, without ZeRo Diddy Kong would drop from #2 to... #3. What would happen with Rosalina & Luma's score if Dabuz 100% dropped her, I wonder?

 

[BunbUn129]

March week 1 tournies

Spoiler: No Fun Allowed (March 5th) (South) (169 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: Elegant
3rd: Aarvark
4th: Cosmos
5th: Grimturtle
5th: Lima
7th: Twi
7th: Gnes
9th: Jumbolias ,
9th: Fatality
9th: Illusion.
9th: Dragonite
13th: P2P With Gibus ,
13th: BC
13th: Asa ,
13th: SlippyT

Spoiler: Cen-Cal Standoff (March 4th) (Central California) (106 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: ImHip
2nd: Jtails
3rd: IC
4th: ApologyMan
5th: NotLast
5th: Legit
7th: Slither2Hunter
7th: Bubbleyumm

*Ghost placed 9th.

Spoiler: Invasion 13 (March 4th) (New England) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MattyG
2nd: LingLing
3rd: Dark Wizzy
4th: Pelca

Spoiler: REFLECT 4 (March 4th) (Florida) (64 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Salem
2nd: Myran
3rd: dyr ,
4th: Rideae

Spoiler: UCSD Photon Quarterlies #4 (March 5th) (Southern California) (45 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Falln ,
2nd: Ito
3rd: IC
4th: Jingen

*Phoenix placed 7th

Spoiler: Beachcon 2017 (March 5th) (Southern California) (86 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Slither2Hunter
2nd: MastaMario
3rd: Regalia
4th: Bran

Wow, this was a good week for Borb Knight.

Curious to see how Falln beat Ito.

 

[Yikarur]

There is a german tournament, Respawn #4 as well. It has about 70 entrants and the whole german Power Ranking is there, except Sodrek.
It's streamed on twitch.tv/teamcalyptus Singles are tomorrow.

 

[pichuplayer]

So, without ZeRo Diddy Kong would drop from #2 to... #3. What would happen with Rosalina & Luma's score if Dabuz 100% dropped her, I wonder?

I'd say a good chunk more then one spot she would fall granted there are other players who use Rosa but Dabuz has been the OG Rosa

 

[TDK]

Pit would be worse than Charizard in terms of results without Earth and Kuro.

That's... kind of an accomplishment in and of itself.

(Note: Not in any way saying Pit is actually worse than Charizard, I don't think that lowly of the character)

 

[DanGR]

Curious to see how Falln beat Ito.

Vods: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/126687738
Bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/ucsd-photon-quarterlies-4/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/124289

 

[TDK]

ZeRo contributes 50 points to Diddy's 294.5 score. 17% to Diddy's entire score.

Earth & Kuro contribute 26 to Pit's 28.5 score. 91.2%.


Oh, and, upcoming tournies this weekend:

-Final Round XX (Southeast)
-Karisuma 12 (Chubu) (Tonight!)
-Hope R! (Tristate)
-Anomaly (Tristate)

OrionRank Only:
-PAX Arena at PAX East 2017 (8 invitees)

https://smash.gg/tournament/gamer-expo-vs-edition/events

Have another one. 37 Entrants, ft VoiD, NAKAT, and False, along with a lot of Hawaii's top players.