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Honestly, I would say the same about Elegant. Dabuz's placestyle being so defensive and campy shut down Elegant so badly when they played. Rosa is arguably Luigi's worst top tier MU along with Mewtwo.
Elegant was adapting better as the set went on, but Rosalina's tools are just really overwhelming for Luigi.
It's been one of those days, huh?
Elegant is flat out better at the MU, tbh. There's no reason you should be able to camp out Mario and not Luigi. I feel like Elegant's skill is being conflated with the abilities of his character far too often.
I looked at this chart and cringed.Looking at
https://i.imgur.com/goREDRa.png ez link
Although he loses to almost every character ranked better than Robin (holy well rounded MUs Batman!), most losses are less than 1 point. It seems weird Sonic ended up his worst MU at -1.5, which I disagree with. Sheik's his worst, Sonic's a disadvantage but not even in Link's top 5 worst, imo. He then beats or goes even with every character starting at Robin going down the list except a slight loss to kirby and Roy, also disagree with. T and Scizor finds these even and Cat says slight advantage for both. None of the wins are very big except Ganon and jiggz, which are still only 1.3. So Link's a character with tools for anything yet undertuned. IMO the spread underrates Link a bit but isn't bad. Accumulating data from many good players is the best way to go about this.
Does anyone doubt jiggz is the worst non-mii character after this, lol?
has almost no winning MUs, most of his MUs are even at best or losing by more than 2 at worst, he's essentially irrelevant outside of super low tiers... though it was said that this chart isn't perfect.I like how
beats the 4 best characters.
What do you think Ally is doing wrong in the matchup? Mario's options seem to be nonexistent the minute Bayo starts camping the moving platform, or at least nothing he can do that doesn't put him at risk of getting Witch Time'd or losing a trade and being even further behind in percent or possibly losing a stock.
Your opinion, m8.
I was going to kind of reflexively disagree with you, but after thinking about it, I’ll just partially disagree. I don’t really care that much how a given character is “doing” in this meta versus what they can actually do against any other character. That’s a bit harder to tease out because our top players frequently play sub optimally.
I don’t know how you measure combos as a thing to do better in, but Mewtwo has some of the highest, quickest damage output in the game and has more ways to seal your stock than maybe any other top tier.
Luigi absolutely does better in the Bayo MU than Mario. Yeah, he is also susceptible to platform camping, but Mario can’t garbage can Bayo’s stellar recovery. He also can’t afford single hit potshots on her, while Luigi’s aerials actually hurt individually. And as good as his combo game is, it’s still not quite Luigi’s level, which is some of the highest damage output in the game outside of Bayo herself.
Many (close to ALL) of Mario's good neutral options are aerial, including tomahawk grab and his fireball coverage, whereas Luigi focuses on ground game with jab, foxtrot, fireball, rolls, dashgrab. Bayo anti-airs very well, thus making it difficult for Mario to approach, but doesn't have ground v ground options that are nearly as potent, which gives Luigi a chance to get in.
Exactly, if anything it should be -.4 or -.3, it's no where near as bad as a -.9.
is not a top tier when watching him these days. Lack of a consistent kill confirm and trouble getting in in quite a few matchups can make it tough for Mario. Players are getting better at abusing these Mario weaknesses and I don’t think it’s too surprising that Ally’s results have waned from his previous peak performances, as well as Anti relying much more on his other characters.
*inb4 mario apologists*
Ninja has the tools to do well against almost every character in the game. It's just using those tools well enough to be able to fight them.
You mean like how she works in her source games? Cuase thats an accurate statement
I think he means like a MVC character. Which is what she is
The thing is... the issue Ally runs into often is air to air. Because platform camping. And FWIW, Mario's dash speed is flat out better than Luigi's, with the same dash length. So foxtrot is better. Mario has better roll data than Luigi. I will give you fireball and dashgrab, however. Jabs are extremely similar, though.
It's not bad, thought still need much more research.
I think Greninja beats Luigi slightly, but it can go either way. He can zone him out pretty well, escape certain strings with Shadow Sneak and mess with his recovery. It plays out a little like the Mario MU. Luigi still has some deadly combos against Greninja though and 'nado gimps can be really tough to deal with unless you save your double jump due to Hydro Pump's lack of a hitbox. Should be a good match if Salem tries Greninja out.
I think most characters would drop tiers by losing their greatest strength. I know people keep saying Mario isn't top tier but who can you realistically place above him after Bayo, Diddy,Sheik, Rosa, Cloud, Sonic. Fox, ZSS? Probably could throw M2 as well but after that who?
His meta is ONE THING.
Personally I have Marcina and M2 slightly above him with Corrin either tied with Mario or slightly below. Honestly to me it doesn’t matter so much where he’s located in relation to these other characters, I just think he should be grouped in with these characters at the top of high tier as opposed to with the top tiers
...Incoming Greninja post? (Pls?)
i'm assuming you havent played much marvel becuase that's just not true. she's way too fair to be a marvel character. snake,mk, and ic in brawl are all marvel characters elite marvel characters dont have holes at any range.
Yeah, it's such a good move by itself. Quick forward facing poke is something Mario would love.
This is what I wish the BR would make. It's 50x more interesting and informative.Looking at
https://i.imgur.com/goREDRa.png ez link
Although he loses to almost every character ranked better than Robin (holy well rounded MUs Batman!), most losses are less than 1 point. It seems weird Sonic ended up his worst MU at -1.5, which I disagree with. Sheik's his worst, Sonic's a disadvantage but not even in Link's top 5 worst, imo. He then beats or goes even with every character starting at Robin going down the list except a slight loss to kirby and Roy, also disagree with. T and Scizor finds these even and Cat says slight advantage for both. None of the wins are very big except Ganon and jiggz, which are still only 1.3. So Link's a character with tools for anything yet undertuned. IMO the spread underrates Link a bit but isn't bad. Accumulating data from many good players is the best way to go about this.
Does anyone doubt jiggz is the worst non-mii character after this, lol?
Keep in mind that I am not a Smash Bros expert. I never said Mewtwo was automatically below ZSS and Rosalina, unless you are referring to something else. Mewtwo does have a lot of combo potential like his forward air and his neutral - special. Fox's forward air - footstool zero to death though. I think I said "combos" and I see Sheik being utilized more than Mewtwo, but you could be right. Well stated, wise sir. I do think Luigi does better in the Bayonetta MU than Mario.
And how would you do that? Get one top player of every character together and have them make MU charts? Then you run into the problem of that being one player's opinion for each characters. You could try and get multiple players, but that gets logistically much harder for each one. Then there's MUs being much harder to define than tier positions, most MU charts tending to screw low tiers, and people taking the "official" MUs as fact. There's a reason Melee never had an official MU chart, with the only unofficial one being from 2010.
The problem is this is a massive undertaking and there are some characters we actually do not have any representatives for, so we’d have to coordinate with many other outside sources.
otherwise we might actually have had a Luigi in Grand Finals again
is cemented as #1 for this season
