Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Y2Kay]

Another thing that's I feel is silly that people don't know about is Greninja's disadvantage. He can be edgeguarded, but Hydro Pump, when used correctly, can make his landing's nearly impossible to punish except for the faster characters in the game (Sheik or faster, usually). Even mobile characters like Cloud can have difficulty punishing it.

Probably the best example of this is Tasty Tofu's set vs Anti:

 

[Deleted member]

Another thing that's I feel is silly that people don't know about is Greninja's disadvantage. He can be edgeguarded, but Hydro Pump, when used correctly, can make his landing's nearly impossible to punish except for the faster characters in the game (Sheik or faster, usually). Even mobile characters like Cloud can have difficulty punishing it.

Probably the best example of this is Tasty Tofu's set vs Anti:

Good observation, I never recognized Greninja could do that. As you said earlier, the Hydro Pump landing tool is very safe. I think Hydro Pump is definitely underrated and hopefully more Greninja players will utilize Hydro Pump in the future. Give this person some likes!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Another thing that's I feel is silly that people don't know about is Greninja's disadvantage. He can be edgeguarded, but Hydro Pump, when used correctly, can make his landing's nearly impossible to punish except for the faster characters in the game (Sheik or faster, usually). Even mobile characters like Cloud can have difficulty punishing it.

Probably the best example of this is Tasty Tofu's set vs Anti:

Can characters with projectile like coverage still stop it though?

 

[KakuCP9]

Can characters with projectile like coverage still stop it though?

It's usually stage dependant. On a flat stages like FD (and to lesser extent Smashville and Town n'city) it can rather easy so long as he doesn't hydro pump behind you. On tri plat stages, it can be harder since Greninja can chosse to land on plats or weave to the ground (though Sheik can still nail him rather easily due to the speed and range of needles.)

 

[Y2Kay]

It's usually stage dependant. On a flat stages like FD (and to lesser extent Smashville and Town n'city) it can rather easy so long as he doesn't hydro pump behind you. On tri plat stages, it can be harder since Greninja can chosse to land on plats or weave to the ground (though Sheik can still nail him rather easily due to the speed and range of needles.)

It also depends if how much that windbox affects you. Hydro Pump can blow you right off the stage and mess you up.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

They said new tier list *soon* like three weeks ago.

You have 24 hours to put it up or I don't know what I might do.

 

[Deleted member]

They said new tier list *soon* like three weeks ago.

You have 24 hours to put it up or I don't know what I might do.

Be patient my guy, soon does not mean a day, it means a few months or something. We will see when it happens. Though I do want that new tier list in a short moment, but we will have to be patient for now and wait.

( EDIT: It takes time for people to make a full opinion on each character's placing, a lot of research and decision making is involved to justify a character's placement - which can take months. Thankfully it is coming soon. We should all thank the Smash community for making our tier lists! )

 

[ぱみゅ]

While I can't speak for the whole team and much less make any promise, it does have to be very shortly, considering the PGRv4 is nearing its end and will be a huge announcement,

 

[SJMistery]

It also depends if how much that windbox affects you. Hydro Pump can blow you right off the stage and mess you up.

Yeah, you do NOT want to try catching the landing with PK Thunder

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-2ggc-championship-thread.451946/

Thread for this since it's happening in half an hour.

 

[Minordeth]

Komo kinda demonstrating what I’ve suspected, which is that Roy, for all his gimpability, has a few things that allow him to uniquely combat Bayo.

- He has that Fox-ian quality of high fall speed and fast run to enable him is to actually chase Bayo after she expends her specials, and as she inevitably attempts to retreat.

- Like the other FE characters, he is strong as hell on the edge, which negates most of the benefit from Bayo gets from retreating to it. Zack and Ana both got caught hard multiple times trying to get off the ledge.

- A grab game. He has the most potent grab game of the swordies, and between his normals and regrab game, he makes Bats Within a liability. Komo got multiple regrabs off of both Aba and Zack.

- Potent anti-airs. You can’t really contest Bayo without them.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Komo's Roy got more damage from 0% than Bayonetta did to him at 0%.


But this is just Bayonetta in a nutshell: You outneutral her, you win, SPECIALLY if you know how to DI/escape her combos.

But I noticed Zack (maybe it's a Bayonetta issue) had a lot of trouble when he was in the ledge and the opponent held shield. She took so much damage from being in that position.

 

[The-Technique]

- A grab game. He has the most potent grab game of the swordies, and between his normals and regrab game, he makes Bats Within a liability. Komo got multiple regrabs off of both Aba and Zack.

i wouldn't say his grab game is the best out of the swordies, his followups become very limited after a certain percent range, and his kill throw is weaker compared to Marth/Lucina.

however, roy does have the ability to frame trap opponents into regrabs, he has that going for him

 

[InfinitySoul]

Why was Ken dropping of all those Peach's dash atk against Samsora ?

 

[Rizen]

What does Roy have off grab?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Honestly to me it looked like Komo was playing too reserved with Cloud and wanted to use him like Roy which he lacks the ground game to do. Komo didn't do anything special that set aside play like your supposed to against Bayo by using grab confirms to get damage instead of wildly swinging into Witch Time or on her shield and getting laddered and not over committing. He stayed still and grounded and waited till the opportunity to swing presented itself. The only MU specific thing he was doing was using Roy's strong and quick tilts and simple strings to rack up quick damage and kill a relatively light character in Bayonetta who is more susceptible to dying off strong moves earlier.

 

[Nobie]

Supergirl Kels recently took a set and then two more games in GF off of Blacktwins (Cloud player), going with Kirby instead of her Sonic.

https://twitter.com/SuperGirlKels/status/934642058815557632

The fact that she opted for Kirby over Sonic against Cloud says a lot about each character, I think.

Cloud has a fantastic neutral. Sonic has either a strong neutral, a smoke and mirrors neutral, or ignores neutral, depending on who you ask. Kirby has a bad neutral, flat-out.

While Sonic is bait and punish, his punishes are rarely severe. He lands one or two hits, and gets back to that aggravating neutral. Kirby has a hard time getting in, but once he's actually there he has some serious combo shenanigans.

Neither Sonic nor Kirby have an advantage over Cloud, but it seems to me that, when it comes to fighting Cloud, a harder punish game is more beneficial than a good neutral. This goes double if your character lacks significant disjointed. Ideally, your character has all the ingredients (Sheik, Bayonetta, maybe Mewtwo), but if not, then the ability to slip in and wreck seems more of an issue for Cloud.

 

[|RK|]

Supergirl Kels recently took a set and then two more games in GF off of Blacktwins (Cloud player), going with Kirby instead of her Sonic.

https://twitter.com/SuperGirlKels/status/934642058815557632

The fact that she opted for Kirby over Sonic against Cloud says a lot about each character, I think.

Cloud has a fantastic neutral. Sonic has either a strong neutral, a smoke and mirrors neutral, or ignores neutral, depending on who you ask. Kirby has a bad neutral, flat-out.

While Sonic is bait and punish, his punishes are rarely severe. He lands one or two hits, and gets back to that aggravating neutral. Kirby has a hard time getting in, but once he's actually there he has some serious combo shenanigans.

Neither Sonic nor Kirby have an advantage over Cloud, but it seems to me that, when it comes to fighting Cloud, a harder punish game is more beneficial than a good neutral. This goes double if your character lacks significant disjointed. Ideally, your character has all the ingredients (Sheik, Bayonetta, maybe Mewtwo), but if not, then the ability to slip in and wreck seems more of an issue for Cloud.

Things I never really get the chance to say - I've always enjoyed the Cloud MU as Kirby. Punish game can be pretty bonkers, especially when Cloud has limit.

There's a lot to compare between Luigi and Kirby, tbh. They have some of the same weaknesses & strengths, though Kirby doesn't get juggled as hard (he can fly away). You can actually learn a lot about how to play the MU by watching Elegant's Luigi - s'what I do.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby is actually underrated in my opinion. I personally think Kirby has an even match - up against Fox and Sheik. I know this is too short, but Kirby has a good combo game and swallow suicide is annoying and fun at the same time. Too bad Kirby has many flaws, like having a serious bad match up against Sonic, Cloud, and Bayonetta. Especially Sonic.

 

[Minordeth]

Komo's Roy got more damage from 0% than Bayonetta did to him at 0%.


But this is just Bayonetta in a nutshell: You outneutral her, you win, SPECIALLY if you know how to DI/escape her combos.

But I noticed Zack (maybe it's a Bayonetta issue) had a lot of trouble when he was in the ledge and the opponent held shield. She took so much damage from being in that position.

I’ll have to rewatch, but it happened to Aba too. Zack definitely struggled a bit more, and part of me wonders if maybe Aba playing Mewtwo makes him more savvy at the ledge. Actually, alternate take, by the time Komo got to Zack, he had already warmed up his Roy for Bayo, and wasn’t missing nearly as many things as he was with Aba. His play just looked tighter for the most part.

i wouldn't say his grab game is the best out of the swordies, his followups become very limited after a certain percent range, and his kill throw is weaker compared to Marth/Lucina.

however, roy does have the ability to frame trap opponents into regrabs, he has that going for him

His grab game does drop off a bit after about 60, but it varies depending on the opponent weight and fall class. Like on Bayo he still gets Fthrow to DED and Dthrow to Fair past 60. That he still gets some follow ups at every percent, some of them kill confirms on certain characters, opens up the rest of his game pretty well. Nair 1 is pretty fab.

I think really only Ike throw game is around the same league, and Ike can’t chase Bayo as well. Robin has checkmate, but Robin can’t also close in on Bayo if she decides to bullet camp.

We saw Komo constantly threaten both Zack and Aba in the midrange if they started camping with bullets, as Roy can just dash in for a grab or DED or whatever to punish.

What does Roy have off grab?

A lot. This is old, but as an example:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SN0SqGkEqPm1-GXRE89gUPYl_a-m7xXHsjxpZCnPHOY/mobilebasic

his Nair 1 and Jab combos are in there too.

 

[The-Technique]

What does Roy have off grab?

Off of just grabs, at 0-low percents Roy has d-throw > jab > double edge dance and f-throw > n-air > n-air, at low-mid percents f-throw > n-air/dash attack/double edge dance, mid-high percents Roy can still d-throw > f-air/u-air, and at high percents Roy can only d-throw > u-air

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Just in case if nobody has seen this thread yet on reddit, https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/ this link is linked to a thread that is a "complete" matchup chart for smash 4. While it's certainly not perfect and some characters could easily be overrated or underrated, it does help in giving players a beginning picture of specific matchups. One thing I noticed that is interesting is that Pikachu has a really strong matchup spread, but the character hasn't been particularly strong in the meta for quite some time. On the other hand, you have a character like Ness that seems to be pretty highly rated in tournament results but has a very average matchup spread according to this chart.

 

[MERPIS]

Just in case if nobody has seen this thread yet on reddit, https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/ this link is linked to a thread that is a "complete" matchup chart for smash 4. While it's certainly not perfect and some characters could easily be overrated or underrated, it does help in giving players a beginning picture of specific matchups. One thing I noticed that is interesting is that Pikachu has a really strong matchup spread, but the character hasn't been particularly strong in the meta for quite some time. On the other hand, you have a character like Ness that seems to be pretty highly rated in tournament results but has a very average matchup spread according to this chart.

>Mewtwo loses to Sheik in a -0.9
>Sheik still doesn't have a single losing matchup

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

>Mewtwo loses to Sheik in a -0.9

As I said, the chart isn't close to being perfect. That matchup could be wrong. Could be right, but could be wrong. I mainly posted it just in case if anyone wanted to see one overall matchup chart as a reference.

 

[MERPIS]

As I said, the chart isn't close to being perfect. That matchup could be wrong. Could be right, but could be wrong. I mainly posted it just in case if anyone wanted to see one overall matchup chart as a reference.

Ye, That's my only gripe with it, well that and Sonic losing to cloud in a -.9 rather than say, a .7 or 6
And sheik not losing a single damn matchup christ man it's inaccurate a lot when it comes to sheik

 

[ARGHETH]

Pikachu has a really strong matchup spread, but the character hasn't been particularly strong in the meta for quite some time.

There's strong, and then there's only two losing MUs, less than every character except Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic.
So yeah, I'd say there's inaccuracies, mainly because that was purely based on top players' MU charts, which has a whole bunch of problems.

Also, where does Sheik not losing a single MU come from? It has Rosa as -0.5.

 

[MERPIS]

There's strong, and then there's only two losing MUs, less than every character except Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic.
So yeah, I'd say there's inaccuracies, mainly because that was purely based on top players' MU charts, which has a whole bunch of problems.

Also, where does Sheik not losing a single MU come from? It has Rosa as -0.5.

a .5 doesn't really count, that's like a 52.5-47.5 matchup, still even.

 

[Deleted member]

Just in case if nobody has seen this thread yet on reddit, https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/ this link is linked to a thread that is a "complete" matchup chart for smash 4. While it's certainly not perfect and some characters could easily be overrated or underrated, it does help in giving players a beginning picture of specific matchups. One thing I noticed that is interesting is that Pikachu has a really strong matchup spread, but the character hasn't been particularly strong in the meta for quite some time. On the other hand, you have a character like Ness that seems to be pretty highly rated in tournament results but has a very average matchup spread according to this chart.

Great match up chart!
Though there are some duds in my opinion.
I have is Cloud should have a slightly better match up chart, an example is a +3 match up against Little Mac, Ganon, Pac - Man, and King Dedede.
I think Bayonetta wins the match up against Mario; Bayonetta +1.
Greninja and Luigi need a better match up chart in my opinion.

Oh wait, there is an advanced option. That will be interesting!

Do not get hostile towards me, I am just sharing my opinions. As I said before, I like this new match up chart a lot! Thank you for showing me this new match up list! Keep up the good work!

 

[FeelMeUp]

>Mewtwo loses to Sheik in a -0.9

https://twitter.com/SmileySSB4/status/920183089061552133 : -1
https://twitter.com/LG_Abadango/status/928858347750637569 : -1
https://twitter.com/Deathorse/status/923554375020306432 : -1
https://twitter.com/PG_ESAM/status/844646844789669888 : -1
https://twitter.com/TheKillerJawz/status/842559043680059393 : -1
https://twitter.com/WaDiRob/status/903048483040628737 : -1
https://twitter.com/Zoan1P/status/877686922361098240 : -1
Do you think you know better than every single notable main of this character?

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah, Mewtwo loses to Sheik. I don’t think it’s awful by any means, but the Mewtwo player has to put in a little more effort to win. I think it really comes down to frame data and ledge options.

For instance, Mewtwo has a blind spot on cross ups, and Sheik is made of cross ups. Mewtwo has to go through work to get off the ledge versus Sheik as well.

Let’s be real though, even with Sheik’s overwhelming advantage and ledge state, Mewtwo is a murder machine. It doesn’t take much to even the scorecard.

 

[The-Technique]

It's crazy how Mario struggles so much versus Bayo whereas Luigi can damage and kill her so efficiently.

 

[TDK]

Why is Salem the only player who air/plat camps Mario? He can't really do anything about it.

 

[MercuryPenny]

because salem is the only one willing to play bayonetta like bayonetta

 

[Illusion.]

TGL 2 (68 entrants: San Marcos, Texas)

1st. FX | Karna
2nd. Lucy
3rd. SRC | LightTheLantern
4th. Jumbolias
5th. SU | Megafox
5th. GT MB | Whispy
7th. GO! | KJ
7th. Gaarc

 

[TDK]

So, here's the 2GGC Finale top 8 (Everyone starts in winners for the first set):

ZeRo vs Dabuz
MKLeo vs Abadango
VoiD vs Salem
Elegant vs KEN

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Why is Salem the only player who air/plat camps Mario? He can't really do anything about it.

Seriously the MU for Mario is looking more and more like it is at last as terribl for Mario as Sonic.

It isn't swords that is Mario's biggest problem in the game, its SEGA

 

[FeelMeUp]

If VoiD doesn't have to fight Dabuz he has a decent chance of taking the whole thing.
Would be nice to see. ZeRo vs Dabuz is probably the decider for the rest of the tournament, though.

 

[Rizen]

Looking at 's placements on the MU chart:

https://i.imgur.com/goREDRa.png ez link

Although he loses to almost every character ranked better than Robin (holy well rounded MUs Batman!), most losses are less than 1 point. It seems weird Sonic ended up his worst MU at -1.5, which I disagree with. Sheik's his worst, Sonic's a disadvantage but not even in Link's top 5 worst, imo. He then beats or goes even with every character starting at Robin going down the list except a slight loss to kirby and Roy, also disagree with. T and Scizor finds these even and Cat says slight advantage for both. None of the wins are very big except Ganon and jiggz, which are still only 1.3. So Link's a character with tools for anything yet undertuned. IMO the spread underrates Link a bit but isn't bad. Accumulating data from many good players is the best way to go about this.

Does anyone doubt jiggz is the worst non-mii character after this, lol?

 

[Deleted member]

Does anyone doubt jiggz is the worst non-mii character after this, lol?

Sorry, but no. And if Puff or Mii Sword Fighter is better is a debatable topic, but saddly Jiggs is the worst non - mii character.

 

[Lord Dio]

*gives VoiD energy*