Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Deleted member]

I'd argue it's just the opposite. Bayonetta is probably notably more powerful than Brawl MK, but the overall power level in Smash 4 is a lot higher than it was in Brawl, where half the cast was either legitimately terrible or straight-up didn't function.

That is not what he means, in results wise and ability wise Brawl MK is so much better than Bayonetta or even pre - patch Bayonetta. Brawl MK is considered the best character in all of the four smash sequels by many, and it makes sense that Brawl MK is more powerful than Bayonetta. How does the overall power level in Smash 4 being a lot higher than in Brawl and the rest of the cast not functioning and terrible have to do with Bayonetta and Brawl MK? Here is another way to put it: If Brawl MK was introduced in Smash 4 in the next patch 1.1.8, he would get quick - banned, Bayonetta is not even banned anymore, and pre-patch Bayo was banned in only certain areas. So that's my opinion on your fact.

 

[|RK|]

I'd argue it's just the opposite. Bayonetta is probably notably more powerful than Brawl MK, but the overall power level in Smash 4 is a lot higher than it was in Brawl, where half the cast was either legitimately terrible or straight-up didn't function.

I was actually discussing this with a number of people the other day (who know way more about Brawl than I do), and I get the sense Bayo is more akin to Brawl Ice Climbers than Brawl MK. And the reactions to them are similar.

People always hate the punish character more than the one who wins every interaction, but makes you feel like you have a chance. I don't think Bayo is over tuned to the point where she invalidates the cast in every area, and anything they can do, she can do better. Which, from my understanding, is exactly what Brawl MK did.

But she *does* body you for making even one error, which is way more Ice Climbers (Melee or Brawl) or even Puff, as opposed to an MK or a Fox. And I think that dominating neutral is more important than explosiveness, as it leads to better consistency.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'd argue it's just the opposite. Bayonetta is probably notably more powerful than Brawl MK, but the overall power level in Smash 4 is a lot higher than it was in Brawl, where half the cast was either legitimately terrible or straight-up didn't function.

lol

Put down the alcohol bro.

You are finished.

 

[Frihetsanka]

And I think that dominating neutral is more important than explosiveness, as it leads to better consistency.

Interesting statement (and it might very well be true). I'm curious; would you be inclined to say that Diddy Kong is the best character in Smash 4?

 

[|RK|]

Interesting statement (and it might very well be true). I'm curious; would you be inclined to say that Diddy Kong is the best character in Smash 4?

I'm not really qualified to make that decision, I don't think. But I feel like I'm usually between Bayo and Cloud.

 

[Deleted member]

Interesting statement (and it might very well be true). I'm curious; would you be inclined to say that Diddy Kong is the best character in Smash 4?

I think |RK| is talking about Bayonetta, not Diddy Kong ( Despite Diddy Kong having a great neutral ). I mean, does Bayo have a good neutral as well or is it mediocre? If he/she does think Diddy is the best, than that is a very interesting opinion, I would like to hear an explanation ( I like hearing explanations and opinions of other people. ). I thought most players ( including me ) thought Bayo was the best in Smash 4.

But I feel like I'm usually between Bayo and Cloud.

Bayonetta in my opinion is better than Cloud, Cloud is second or third best in Smash 4 ( Most likely second ).

 

[Megamang]

As her meta develops I feel her 'weak neutral' and 'oppressive advantage' is overstated. I don't feel like she is weak in neutral at all, her neutral is incredible. She makes almost anyone approach with bullet arts, she forces grab-centric neutral (which naturally has worse hitbox coverage, your grab is hard to place vs an aerial or even DA with someone like Samus/CF/Greninja) and she obviously has her hitboxes. And the fact she can ABK after a SH bair or nair is pretty incredible, compared to even Diddy fair where you know he is gonna land vs bayo you really don't have a 'good' option even if you shield the bair, the wrong guess gets you kicked. Her uthrow is crazyballs for starting advantage state and her dashgrab is great since she can hold you in shield pretty well.


I'm probably the cstick nair obsessed idiot to half of you guys now, but her c-stick nair is dope. Combo starts with ABK if you use it early, combos into all kinds of stuff if you land with it.


But anyways... her advantage isn't really touch of death if you have good DI and aren't playing Salem and TaC/Smashville. I get out from the first few combo starters before stuff starts really linking and being deadly. I think you should too. I mean if she ABKs or WT you, and you go diagonally down (low damage fastfaller situation here)... most she gets is a divekick. She can fastfall a fair and that coverage is alright, but again DI away saves you from the deadliest fair combos.

Once she starts launching you offstage with a neutral touch, then it gets scary. And when you have enough damage, SDI down just keeps you there so up becomes the idea... but im thinking SDIing sideways is now the best choice, going up is just destroying people if bayo gets it right.


Her disadvantage in regards to being killed is where she is weak. We saw a bair trigger Bats into grab kill confirm. Tons of characters have cool grab confirms on her. Her bad airdodge is actually a weakness, but you MUST really know how to abuse it. Marth D-throw is one that hurts her.

Some characters are better at this than others. Pikachu, for example, seems to struggle hitting uthrow thunder. This may just be a familiarity thing; he has to adjust more than others?


---


Can we talk about Greninja? Salem has such a simple, effective style. Dash attack/ Dash grab mixups on landings make landing REALLY tough for almost anyone, and when the meta is more about holding advantage and mixing up punishes for a great early kill, he excels there. Fsmash / Dsmash at ledge / Usmash together are great moves.

Shadow sneak can be used creatively. Throw into shadow sneak kills are great for anyone holding away from the dthrow fair / usmash situation.

I liked a way Salem did it, he uses a bit backwards and then turns around... and it functions as whiff punish. Marth jumps, you disappear, he fairs, you kick him hard.


Cstick nairs (sorry) help with his combos. If Salem could hit these, he would be even scarier.

Massive perfect pivot!

Bair is dope, actually. Fast startup helps cover gren's bad startup on aerials. The autolink angles will launch people in weird ways, against gimpable characters I really like to land it even over fair.

You've got similar mixable startups on nair / uair. You can threaten a uair kill, and then get a sweet spot nair kill on them for airdodging. And you are almost certainly faster than them in the air unless they are Cloud (IMO greninja's biggest problem) so tracking them is easy enough, though you probably fall faster that gives you drag down uair options as well.

Dair is nice for airdodge coverage as well, in certain situations. Uair footstool dair fair is great. Whenever I hit a dair its almost guaranteed a followup is happening, often fair and if they start ADing well then Shadow Sneak pops in.


Utilt is actually an amazing anti air. It also combos at low percentages, and kill confirms at higher percentages.

He has a sick range of kill confirms, massive coverage given good proficiency.

Nair footstool stuff -> Nair usmash -> Nair Fair ~ Utilt uair ~ Uthrow uair -> Uthrow kill outright.


Really the only issue is bad OoS and bad startup pressure. I noticed Salem just... rolls instead of shielding, or spotdodges. Suddenly it isn't so bad, just don't let them pressure your shield in the first place. Pivot grab is insanely fast for its range so his defense isn't nonexistant.

His edgeguarding is also actually pretty high/top tier. Hydro Pump can gimp people like Marth/Luigi/Mario/Ryu?, its nice free damage on most characters, it decimates Ness/Lucas. Dsmash is actually a great 2 frame move, in that you don't really risk anything except vs certain characters. Falling with a charging shurikan much like Bayo is starting to do with the bullet climax is great for baiting and punishing airdodges. Shadow Sneak is deadly offstage.


I like to occasionally use HP on the ground and angle it up against people in the air, its free damage and if they aren't holding towards you can suddenly send them flying and into a much worse situation.

I find if you use bair intelligently you can catch people who just think 'oh bad startup ill just stuff him'. And i believe landing bair (with solid timing) combos into dtilt into pain...

I like cstick RAR nair -> dtilt for shield pressure, its safe against almost anyone on the back of the shield.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The whole "Bayo has a weak neutral" talk goes on becuase people seem to look at her neutral game in a vacum. Competing her the the neutral gods of the game like Diddy and Sheik

Sure her Neutral can look bad when compared to Sheik and Diddy, but come on, that can also be said for like 85% of the entire 50+ character roster.

Bayo may not have a "top tier" neutral game but it is still good enough with tricks up her sleeve to smother a sizable amount of the cast.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Emblem Lord makes lurking this thread worth it.

 

[|RK|]

Bayo's neutral isn't bad, no. But it does have noticeable weaknesses in it. For example, characters with solid grab games and good projectiles tend to find her easier to deal with than most. 4/6 Pokemon (Lucario, Mewtwo, Greninja, and Pikachu) have MU spreads that are agreed to be no more than slight disadvantage, sometimes even said to go even with her.

Thing is, most characters don't have those attributes simultaneously. Sheik does, and she does well. Diddy does, etc. For the rest of the cast, I don't think it's so much that Bayo's neutral is amazing moreso than Bayo's neutral limits their own (which kind of ends up with the exact same effect as an amazing neutral). You're more afraid to space or juggle because you can get punished for doing so with a stock. So typically people let her run over them.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'd argue it's just the opposite. Bayonetta is probably notably more powerful than Brawl MK, but the overall power level in Smash 4 is a lot higher than it was in Brawl, where half the cast was either legitimately terrible or straight-up didn't function.

chaingrabbing and OG planking aren't things so no this game is a lot less horribly broken

 

[blackghost]

chaingrabbing and OG planking aren't things so no this game is a lot less horribly broken

At this point in the games development theres no point in arguing with people aboit bayo vs brawl mk. You just ignore them at this point.
On a side note, whu do people continue to give zero a pass when he dies the same way multiple tourneys for the same situation?? At some point he has to adapt.
Also as the list of viables continues to shrink yes comparing bayo neutral to the top 15 or so os fair to do and when you objectively look at her nuetral theres a reason the best bayo (salem) plays the way he does. Salem doesnt force his opponents to do anything. He almost never initiates anything.

 

[TDK]

On a side note, whu do people continue to give zero a pass when he dies the same way multiple tourneys for the same situation?? At some point he has to adapt.

Apparently he tried to B-reverse popgun in grands this time and got a Monkey Kick. There's no way he'd do it again, right?

 

[Deleted member]

Apparently he tried to B-reverse popgun in grands this time and got a Monkey Kick. There's no way he'd do it again, right?

I saw that mistake, ZeRo probably will not do that again.
Is it this event?

Go to 26:35 for the Monkey Kick fail.

 

[Jaguar360]

Can we talk about Greninja? Salem has such a simple, effective style. Dash attack/ Dash grab mixups on landings make landing REALLY tough for almost anyone, and when the meta is more about holding advantage and mixing up punishes for a great early kill, he excels there. Fsmash / Dsmash at ledge / Usmash together are great moves.

Shadow sneak can be used creatively. Throw into shadow sneak kills are great for anyone holding away from the dthrow fair / usmash situation.

I liked a way Salem did it, he uses a bit backwards and then turns around... and it functions as whiff punish. Marth jumps, you disappear, he fairs, you kick him hard.


Cstick nairs (sorry) help with his combos. If Salem could hit these, he would be even scarier.

Massive perfect pivot!

Bair is dope, actually. Fast startup helps cover gren's bad startup on aerials. The autolink angles will launch people in weird ways, against gimpable characters I really like to land it even over fair.

You've got similar mixable startups on nair / uair. You can threaten a uair kill, and then get a sweet spot nair kill on them for airdodging. And you are almost certainly faster than them in the air unless they are Cloud (IMO greninja's biggest problem) so tracking them is easy enough, though you probably fall faster that gives you drag down uair options as well.

Dair is nice for airdodge coverage as well, in certain situations. Uair footstool dair fair is great. Whenever I hit a dair its almost guaranteed a followup is happening, often fair and if they start ADing well then Shadow Sneak pops in.


Utilt is actually an amazing anti air. It also combos at low percentages, and kill confirms at higher percentages.

He has a sick range of kill confirms, massive coverage given good proficiency.

Nair footstool stuff -> Nair usmash -> Nair Fair ~ Utilt uair ~ Uthrow uair -> Uthrow kill outright.


Really the only issue is bad OoS and bad startup pressure. I noticed Salem just... rolls instead of shielding, or spotdodges. Suddenly it isn't so bad, just don't let them pressure your shield in the first place. Pivot grab is insanely fast for its range so his defense isn't nonexistant.

His edgeguarding is also actually pretty high/top tier. Hydro Pump can gimp people like Marth/Luigi/Mario/Ryu?, its nice free damage on most characters, it decimates Ness/Lucas. Dsmash is actually a great 2 frame move, in that you don't really risk anything except vs certain characters. Falling with a charging shurikan much like Bayo is starting to do with the bullet climax is great for baiting and punishing airdodges. Shadow Sneak is deadly offstage.


I like to occasionally use HP on the ground and angle it up against people in the air, its free damage and if they aren't holding towards you can suddenly send them flying and into a much worse situation.

I find if you use bair intelligently you can catch people who just think 'oh bad startup ill just stuff him'. And i believe landing bair (with solid timing) combos into dtilt into pain...

I like cstick RAR nair -> dtilt for shield pressure, its safe against almost anyone on the back of the shield.

This is a really on point analysis. Greninja's advantage state is just top tier in about every area, he has a versatile set of neutral tools boosted by his mobility, and his disadvantage state works in spite of his lack of combo breakers thanks to his natural air speed/fall speed/jump height, ability to stall with Water Shuriken, and most importantly, being able to go really far with Hydro Pump and mix up different angles to make him difficult to chase. All of his moves have a unique purpose too. Even with characters like Fox, Sheik and Sonic that abuse his weaknesses of slow startup, his versatility makes it so that he's not shut down out of any matchup. I don't understand how you can look at this character's kit, watch someone like Lea or Venia play and think this character's in the bottom half of the cast.

Like Greninja mains won 3 different regionals this weekend (Some at TSC6, iStudying at Fortuna, and Shinjoebi at Get It Together), Lea had an amazing run to top 8 last weekend at Umebura, Venia's been doing amazing in New York every week, and he's been top 20 for months now on Das Koopa's data and yet I'm always seeing the same crap of "Greninja's ok, he has potential but needs results, ima put him at 30th". It's annoying because he's not top 8ing majors yet since he doesn't have an ESAM/Elegant/Samsora/KEN/ZeRo at the top of his meta right now with there being like 6-7 candidates for the best Greninja right now, yet he's getting these really consistent results in so many parts of the globe and he has such obviously good traits as a character in his mobility, versatility, combo game, etc. It's frustrating.

 

[|RK|]

I saw that mistake, ZeRo probably will not do that again.
Is it this event?

Go to 26:35 for the Monkey Kick fail.

No, not that. That's a separate kind of mistake.

Basically, ZeRo has a habit of using Monkey Flip in disadvantage. People have been reading it often and punishing him for it with death. Salem has done it a couple times now (most notably in Game 10 of EVO 2017 grands & Game 10 of Midwest Mayhem 10, which was yesterday). But Salem wasn't the only one - Prince Ramen, Kirihara, Dabuz, Ned, Mr. R, Nairo, WaDi and others have caught him for it.

 

[Lord Dio]

Hi

There's no way he'd do it again, right?

Sure, after Genesis 3 when Umeki caught him doing it, there's no way he'd continue to do it, right?
Sure, he lost EVO because of it, but there's no way he'd continue to do it again, right?
Sure, he lost Smash Con because of it (to some degree), but there's no way he'd do it again, right?
Sure, he lost MMX because of it, but as you said, there's no way he'd do it again, right?
RIGHT?
Old Habits die harder than this game would if bayo could chaingrab.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Old Habits die harder than this game would if bayo could chaingrab.

i cant tell if it was the massive bowl of ice cream i just ate or this idea that nauseated me

 

[|RK|]

Hi


Sure, after Genesis 3 when Umeki caught him doing it, there's no way he'd continue to do it, right?
Sure, he lost EVO because of it, but there's no way he'd continue to do it again, right?
Sure, he lost Smash Con because of it (to some degree), but there's no way he'd do it again, right?
Sure, he lost MMX because of it, but as you said, there's no way he'd do it again, right?
RIGHT?
Old Habits die harder than this game would if bayo could chaingrab.

It's actually really hard to break old habits that come about in pressure situations. Because sure, you can go in training mode and grind all you want. Sure, you can play as many friendlies, money matches, or even other tournaments. But until you're in a situation with the same amount of pressure - it can be hard to replicate. ZeRo seems to do these Monkey Flips (misinput or not) in the HIGHEST possible pressure situations. And realistically, I wouldn't even doubt that his opponents let him do it until the most crucial moment, where it seems like the only way out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Should I post seriously? I reaaaaaaaaaaaally do not want too. I feel I have contributed more than enough.

UGH!!!! FINE!!!!! **** posting is on hold...for now.

Ok, so let's define what we mean by neutral.

"Neutral is the state in which neither character has any positional advantage over the other. The state of the game where both characters have all their options available."

Was there not some guy that defined this years ago? Wrote a bunch of articles. Some Marth player? Or Sheik? Cloud? Wait.....Ryu?
*Scratches head*
Whatever

So when we say a character's neutral game, it would be the tools they use to actually play within neutral to get OUT of neutral into the advantage state.

This is a game we all enjoy competitively. (Not me. I just like to troll. I'm a weirdo. Don't look up to me guys seriously, I have emotional issues.) So comparisons to the upper echelon of characters within the realm of the context to which they apply in regards to the character's toolsets....yeah that's a thing.

Suck it up.

So Bayonetta's neutral. Amazing? I mean look at her run speed, frame data and the actual arcs of her buttons. Compare her to Diddy, Sheik, Rosa and a few others. No, not amazing. But now...compare her to characters a little down the line. Mario, ZSS, Greninja...ok so not amazing. But still good. And then looking into how she works as a character, her conversions, her main pokes such as fair and dtilt leading directly to combos or solid mix-ups ( let me remind you that Witch Twist when an opponent is in the air is essentially auto pilot Bayo 101. Best case she hits you, worst case you air dodge and most characters cannot even punish consistently) and you are looking at a more than competent neutral game that leads to her win condition.

Is her neutral oppressive? Nah. I mean some characters just cannot do much about her nutty hitbubbles, but many can. She does not utterly dominant neutral interactions. Rather she is consistently rewarded for choosing the correct options. So like....good game design and stuffs.

I mean it's like the combat dev team has also worked on other world renowned fighting games and understands such concepts. But then...devil gene....aannnnnnnnnnnnnnnd rage. So basically.....**** Harada. But Pokken....buuuuuuuuuuut two pikachus?!??! TWO MEWTWOS!?!?!?

RAAAAAARHH!!!

Ok so, she is not Brawl MK. She is not mindlessly winning small interactions. But MK allowed you to THINK you were doing something. (You weren't actually. He was always in control all the time. But because you did not get molested off one error your brain could convince you that you still had a chance. You never had a chance.) Compare that to IC's who made it VERY clear that simple mistakes led to death.

So Bayo is kind of in the middle here leaning towards IC's. In terms of neutral she is no way comparable to MK. But her neutral is still stronger than IC's was. IC's neutral was literally just poke around, desync with blizzard annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd....wait.....like...alooooooooooooooooooooooot of waiting for peeps to commit and you mess them up for it.

Bayo can definitely be more proactive than that. She is like MK in terms of her disadvantage though. Cannot really put her in truly terrible positions. If she presses alot of stuff in the air, you can body her for it. But this really only works if a Bayo is not seasoned. Strong Bayos don't simply use alot of options mid-air for no reason.

I get that being hit hard for a simple mistake "feels" wrong in this game outside of rage situations. You eat a 50% from a simple interaction and you feel robbed. I blame the engine for this and unfortunately this is one of the reasons why higher tiers are higher tiers. They can make you feel pain. Not on the same level as Bayo can, but many of them can make you hurt. But not as many can turn those into kill conversions. ZSS can, but she has other issues.

Really imo Bayo, Sheik and Diddy all have things about them that they should not and make them better in a superficial way. But this is the game.

That was a cop out. But I'm not wrong.

tl;dr Bayo is not better than Brawl MK.

But she is still top 3 in this game.

 

[Deleted member]

Should I post seriously? I reaaaaaaaaaaaally do not want too. I feel I have contributed more than enough.

UGH!!!! FINE!!!!! **** posting is on hold...for now.

Ok, so let's define what we mean by neutral.

"Neutral is the state in which neither character has any positional advantage over the other. The state of the game where both characters have all their options available."

Was there not some guy that defined this years ago? Wrote a bunch of articles. Some Marth player? Or Sheik? Cloud? Wait.....Ryu?
*Scratches head*
Whatever

So when we say a character's neutral game, it would be the tools they use to actually play within neutral to get OUT of neutral into the advantage state.

This is a game we all enjoy competitively. (Not me. I just like to troll. I'm a weirdo. Don't look up to me guys seriously, I have emotional issues.) So comparisons to the upper echelon of characters within the realm of the context to which they apply in regards to the character's toolsets....yeah that's a thing.

Suck it up.

So Bayonetta's neutral. Amazing? I mean look at her run speed, frame data and the actual arcs of her buttons. Compare her to Diddy, Sheik, Rosa and a few others. No, not amazing. But now...compare her to characters a little down the line. Mario, ZSS, Greninja...ok so not amazing. But still good. And then looking into how she works as a character, her conversions, her main pokes such as fair and dtilt leading directly to combos or solid mix-ups ( let me remind you that Witch Twist when an opponent is in the air is essentially auto pilot Bayo 101. Best case she hits you, worst case you air dodge and most characters cannot even punish consistently) and you are looking at a more than competent neutral game that leads to her win condition.

Is her neutral oppressive? Nah. I mean some characters just cannot do much about her nutty hitbubbles, but many can. She does not utterly dominant neutral interactions. Rather she is consistently rewarded for choosing the correct options. So like....good game design and stuffs.

I mean it's like the combat dev team has also worked on other world renowned fighting games and understands such concepts. But then...devil gene....aannnnnnnnnnnnnnnd rage. So basically.....**** Harada. But Pokken....buuuuuuuuuuut two pikachus?!??! TWO MEWTWOS!?!?!?

RAAAAAARHH!!!

Ok so, she is not Brawl MK. She is not mindlessly winning small interactions. But MK allowed you to THINK you were doing something. (You weren't actually. He was always in control all the time. But because you did not get molested off one error your brain could convince you that you still had a chance. You never had a chance.) Compare that to IC's who made it VERY clear that simple mistakes led to death.

So Bayo is kind of in the middle here leaning towards IC's. In terms of neutral she is no way comparable to MK. But her neutral is still stronger than IC's was. IC's neutral was literally just poke around, desync with blizzard annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd....wait.....like...alooooooooooooooooooooooot of waiting for peeps to commit and you mess them up for it.

Bayo can definitely be more proactive than that. She is like MK in terms of her disadvantage though. Cannot really put her in truly terrible positions. If she presses alot of stuff in the air, you can body her for it. But this really only works if a Bayo is not seasoned. Strong Bayos don't simply use alot of options mid-air for no reason.

I get that being hit hard for a simple mistake "feels" wrong in this game outside of rage situations. You eat a 50% from a simple interaction and you feel robbed. I blame the engine for this and unfortunately this is one of the reasons why higher tiers are higher tiers. They can make you feel pain. Not on the same level as Bayo can, but many of them can make you hurt. But not as many can turn those into kill conversions. ZSS can, but she has other issues.

Really imo Bayo, Sheik and Diddy all have things about them that they should not and make them better in a superficial way. But this is the game.

That was a cop out. But I'm not wrong.

tl;dr Bayo is not better than Brawl MK.

But she is still top 3 in this game.

Good post Emblem Lord ! You probably know a lot about Smash Brothers!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So Bayonetta's neutral. Amazing? I mean look at her run speed, frame data and the actual arcs of her buttons. Compare her to Diddy, Sheik, Rosa and a few others. No, not amazing. But now...compare her to characters a little down the line. Mario, ZSS, Greninja...ok so not amazing. But still good. And then looking into how she works as a character, her conversions, her main pokes such as fair and dtilt leading directly to combos or solid mix-ups ( let me remind you that Witch Twist when an opponent is in the air is essentially auto pilot Bayo 101. Best case she hits you, worst case you air dodge and most characters cannot even punish consistently) and you are looking at a more than competent neutral game that leads to her win condition.

Funny you mention Mario here. Because he is one example of a relevant character that seems to get overwhelmed by Bayo's neutral options .

It's basically similar to the Mario vs Sonic MU. Once Bayo gets the lead she can just camp him out with the giant moving wall of hitboxes she can create and never have to take any risks approaching and Mario does not have enough range/mobiliy to break though it.

I would not we surprised if Bayo becomes notes as being as bad an MU for Mario as Sonic, it certainly seems just as stressful for Mario players. Maybe thats why Ally has


ZSS is another top tier noted for having a questionable neutral game and have other similarities on how they thrive more off punishes and conversions than controlling neutral.
Bayo's neutral is more varied in what she can do . Bayo does has better grounded pokes and Oos options for sure. The difference is ZSS ladder combos seem to more often lead to stock taking opportunities .

I know basically nothing about Greninja so I can' say how his neutral compares/competes with Bayo

 

[Lord Dio]

It's actually really hard to break old habits that come about in pressure situations. Because sure, you can go in training mode and grind all you want. Sure, you can play as many friendlies, money matches, or even other tournaments. But until you're in a situation with the same amount of pressure - it can be hard to replicate. ZeRo seems to do these Monkey Flips (misinput or not) in the HIGHEST possible pressure situations. And realistically, I wouldn't even doubt that his opponents let him do it until the most crucial moment, where it seems like the only way out.

Look at the first example I gave. Genesis 3. That was 22 months ago. Almost two years ago, but because he didn't get called out on it then he didn't work on correcting it.
Same thing happened at CEO last year, got caught flipping, but this wasn't really something people were doing, so eh left it alone.
Flash forward to evo-ish of this year, people catch on and slaughter him for it.
Personal improvement revolves around looking at what happened and why you got hit for it, win or lose. To say "Oh one or two people caught it, but no one else will so I can still get away with it" is asking to lose.
Yeah,this takes time, but he's had almost two years to fix that, by looking back and saying "I shouldn't always monkey flip in", voila, two years to improve upon it, no one the wiser, you've improved a lil more.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Isn't correcting habits that get you slaughtered in high-pressure situations kinda smash 101?
As Lord Dio said you don't get punished hard for a loss the same way over and over again and NOT learn from it. You review replays, you say 'huh, it seems i'm using (insert move name here) a little too often, maybe I should mix it up with (insert another still optimal move here) that can't be punished in the same way next time'.
This is how good players win competitively, by being SELF-AWARE. Players who aren't self-aware lose, while players who are win (it's not always that cut-and-dry mind you, it also depends on character MUs obviously). Keeping an eye on your own habits and exploiting the habits of other players is how you win matches....
...
...
...at least that's how I think it's supposed to go.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Also another top tier MU where Bayo's neutral seems to win is Sonic. At least in that MU Bayo seems to beat Sonic at his own game..

 

[Y2Kay]

As cringey and corny as it is, it's true: Greninja is an underrated character.

It's funny when you think about it. Greninja was (fairly) ragged on a lot in the early phases of this game for not having enough results. But since those days, Greninja's player base has expanded and improved a lot. But public consensus still has not budged on him. I still see people even place him below chars like even though Greninja has had better sustained results among a larger player base.

I've transcended past caring about randos' opinions of the character I play anyway, so whatevs. Keep sleeping on him if you want.

 

[FeelMeUp]

It only takes 4 minutes of getting shuriken camped, avoided, and dying to rage Usmash at 55% to realize what Greninja's capable of.
Another one of the game's hidden silly characters.

 

[|RK|]

Well, I know that Salem believes Greninja is secretly top tier. I think people get caught up on some of his... less accepted opinions. But it's actually kind of interesting. I always say that it only takes one top level player sometimes - some characters considered to be only high tier are sleepers. Thing is, Greninja's best strength is his neutral game - and no one who played him (before Salem) had the neutral skill to show it. That's not saying his players had a *bad* neutral, mind - but another one of those "where would Sheik/Diddy be if no one in the top 10 played them"?

 

[Megamang]

Ok imma try an Emblem Lord post:



Alright suckers, look at these facts.


Good mobility = good option coverage = controls the game better = wins more = wins because they outplayed (vs haracter or MU factors) = possibilities in all situations/gamestates/times.


You know when that is true?! ALL GAMES ALWAYS, SON!


---


Seriously this applies to pretty much most games. I don't know much about 2d fighters so ill be quiet here, but shooters? Faster gun classes get used more, tf2 had pyros and heavies get phased out as scouts (who... move fast and have a double jump) got more skilled. They could just do more, cover more, be there when they needed...

RTS? First skill is building a strong army, then smashing someone as you both fail to control your army. But as the game matures, mobile armies ALWAYS become the meta. They can harass, hit you when the conflict favors them, pin you in your base, and run when they won't win.

Hell, chess? The best pieces control the most board, the fastest. Friggin checkers and a piece that can move backwards controls much more of the game than the low tier plastics that only move forward.


Hell, I believe in MegaMang because he has sick aerial mobility, and that is enough to corner anyone.

You know who doesn't have good air mobility? Diddy Kong. He is *trapped* by anyone below him with better airspeed AKA the entire cast nearly, so OF COURSE Zero MF's out of disadvantage constantly. Everyone is saying it is dumb but he has to do something, it is a good option frequently and it got him to game 10 of grand finals of a major vs Salem's bayonetta. But... he did get read. That MF was bad, and possibly a mistake anyways. But, there is a reason he does it, it isn't as horrible as everyone is saying
---


So where does greninja fall? He is absolutely mobile. Both special and normal mobility; usually i'd say normal mobility is king but special movement has made big moves in this game, though bayo should be exploited more.

But as with the RTS analogy above, mobility is where you can HIT, and where you can BE HIT. Greninja has bad 'hitbox mobility', at least compared to shiek. I have learned this from shiek. The fact she can get that fair/nair in your face immediately is HUGE for what options she is covering/threatening. Greninja isn't as good here... But, he can just not get hit, not be in the situation, and engage when it is favorable. (Or, swing a fair where you can be, but where you cannot hit him, aka my whole greninja playstyle rofl), which really reminds me of Salem's bayonetta and may be why he thinks the character is the balls because guess what, he is more mobile than bayo, has more guaranteed combos, a sick projectile, lives longer (except vs gimpers/ironically bayo) and is in some ways more dangerous. Where will this get him? IDK. but,


Mobility is king. Remember this when you pick a gun/race/car/husband/wife. EDIT: RACE WAS REFERRING TO SC2, I REALIZED THAT NON SC2 PLAYERS MIGHT READ THIS WRONG, I APOLOGIZE. If you have the heavy gun and can move slow, you need support and you need to outsmart. If you have the scout/pistol, you can see the heavy gun and just... go shoot their medic. If you are greninja, you can leave, but you can't smack them f5 (though his jab is sick, blah blah cstick jabs while walking into fsmash is damn good)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Well, I know that Salem believes Greninja is secretly top tier. I think people get caught up on some of his... less accepted opinions. But it's actually kind of interesting. I always say that it only takes one top level player sometimes - some characters considered to be only high tier are sleepers. Thing is, Greninja's best strength is his neutral game - and no one who played him (before Salem) had the neutral skill to show it. That's not saying his players had a *bad* neutral, mind - but another one of those "where would Sheik/Diddy be if no one in the top 10 played them"?

You mean their neutral wasn't as developed.

Because that's really key; nobody really masters the neutral. We will continue to learn the neutral as long as we stay gettin hit (for the most part at least).

And Megamang , the moment Monkey Flip gets predictable, it becomes a bad move. Period. No matter the motives and reasons behind it. Unless ZeRo mixes up the timing, the position, or something about the move, it'll be a bad move, and one he'll have to avoid using more (he's losing more because of it). Diddy has no aerial mobility sure, but he does sport a strong set of aerial moves with walling capabilities. Drifting Fairs and Bairs are not half-bad moves.

 

[verbatim]

Ythe moment Monkey Flip gets predictable, it becomes a bad move. Period. No matter the motives and reasons behind it. Unless ZeRo mixes up the timing, the position, or something about the move, it'll be a bad move, and one he'll have to avoid using more (he's losing more because of it). Diddy has no aerial mobility sure, but he does sport a strong set of aerial moves with walling capabilities. Drifting Fairs and Bairs are not half-bad moves.

This is a very simplistic intpretation of the situation. If I get grabbed by someone it's because I got outplayed, not because shielding is a bad move.

Bayonetta has a really powerful atdvantage state, especially when she's covering Diddy Kong trying to get back on stage. We've seen what happens when Bayo reads a high Monkey Flip (at the right %/stage/w/e), and when she reads him going low she can steal his jump and put him back off stage.

 

[Rizen]

Damn nightly backup ate my post. Short version:

Diddy's flip is good in disadvantage but bad for escaping juggles. It gives a valuable mobility option when recovering and landing while not immediately pressured. It's just not a juggle breaker.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay, so I've been absent for a little while, but after catching up on things, I wanted to comment on the Salem v ZeRo set from Midwest Mayhem 10...

ZeRo absolutely deserved to lose that set. Now, I'm not saying how it ended was exactly cool, but Salem was the deserving winner by far.

I'll leave the majority of the set alone, but let's focus on the final game. I want to point something important out...

It's game 10; 2-2 to each player. There's less than 30 seconds left, and ZeRo has a 100% lead on Bayonetta.

Why on earth was he pushing for advantage or a kill?!

Sure, I am no top player, but in that situation (having been on the receiving end of it a couple of times), staying back and forcing Bayonetta to come to you is what you want to be doing. Her neutral is not amazing, and VS Diddy? It pales by far; why do you think Salem was 100% down in the first place? He just can't establish neutral as safely as Diddy can vs Bayonetta. Yeah she can tap on percent with her bullet arts, but is she going to do 100% in 30 seconds with them? Absolutely not. I don't know whether it was nerves, or whether he was tired, but ZeRo really should have slowed down, or just tried to run away. He was doing this in parts, but then opting to get close to Bayonetta to try and sneak a Back Air, or a Dash Grab in.

Just stop! - if you're looking for a sneaky grab, get Bayonetta to approach and then punish her for it.

And of course, we all know ZeRo's habit of using Monkey Flip to get out of disadvantage. Once again Salem punished ZeRo for doing this (though read the post below, not necessarily a "bad habit").

To reiterate, the way he used it, I refuse to believe it was any sort of mis-input; he deliberately jumped into the air before using it (I don't know whether this one was or not, but if he claimed/claims it was, then he's looking for a likely excuse).

When ZeRo was knocked onto that platform, simply standing on the platform in shield is enough in that circumstance. Bayonetta can't do anything to your shield, and if/when she goes up there to try and grab you, that opens up a safer escape route for you while she isn't on centre stage. Heck, even simply falling through the platform onto the ledge would have likely been better.

And finally, ZeRo absolutely SDI'd up; Take a look at the magnifying glass on the characters when Salem uses Twist 1. Notice how ZeRo is slightly up and behind Bayonetta? That's some form of upwards SDI.

You do NOT SDI that move upwards near the top blast line. We also know it was up and behind SDI because we can see Bayonetta is facing towards the left when she's falling back down. It was Twist 1, and with that much rage, Bayonetta likely wouldn't have been able to follow up had he simply SDI'd and DI'd downwards and away.

A simple case of somebody punishing your panic option was enough; the SDI was the nail in the coffin.

Also, props to Salem for finally actually adapting and jumping away from Diddy's Uthrow Uair (around 10 seconds before the end of the set) instead of panic air dodging. ZeRo's panic option is Monkey Flip, Salem's would probably be air dodging; you notice this a fair bit, watch out for it.

Again, to reiterate, the way it ended wasn't exactly amazing. But remember this could have happened with a few characters. ZSS would have had the mobility to catch the Monkey Flip with a double jump Up Air, and we all know what happens with Boost Kick with rage. Samsora has KO'd with rage Parasol in this instance before. We've seen the famed Palutena Up Air before too...

Rage is the real offender here.

Finally, I'll be fair, fair play to ZeRo for actually taking it to game 10. That takes some real skill.

 

[HoSmash4]

‘Zero has a bad monkey flip habit’

This narrative needs to be shutdown... but I guess it won’t if people keep only paying attention to the game defining moments.

Zero simply has two options in principle.
1. Monkey flip inwards which is the best option to escape the corner and if successful stops the opponents momentum
2. Go to the ledge, or try land with a aerial (usually FF fair), both which keep him in the corner if succesful so let’s opponent control momentum.

Zero simply chose the former option as he valued reversing the momentum over the possible consequences. Not necessarily a bad habit but a decision that can be punished harder immediately. When you play a character with diddys air speed you are forced to make these decisions, it isn’t consequently a bad habit.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Again, who are we to judge people far above our general skill level?

 

[Minordeth]

Again, who are we to judge people far above our general skill level?

If Lebron James takes a shot and misses the backboard by a country mile and the ball flies into the crowd, I don’t need to be Michael Jordan to call that attempt a bad shot.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

If Lebron James takes a shot and misses the backboard by a country mile and the ball flies into the crowd, I don’t need to be Michael Jordan to call that attempt a bad shot.

The difference is that that flaw would be obvious to even extremely novice players or those not familiar with basketball.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Again, who are we to judge people far above our general skill level?

For my sanitys sake, stop
Every time there's any sort of criticism towards a top player you'll post the same thing even though you've been answered at least a dozen times
Just go back a few pages and you'll find your answer

 

[Minordeth]

The difference is that that flaw would be obvious to even extremely novice players or those not familiar with basketball.

Sure, but the point you are making, and consistently make, is that top players can’t be critiqued unless the critique is also done by a top player. That’s absurd, hence why my analogy is broad and obvious.

 

[TDK]

Again, who are we to judge people far above our general skill level?

This really isn't the thread for you.