Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Speaking of mobile characters...
How do you guys view Federation Force (aka Samus) in the current meta?
While she isn't that often used at the top lvl (for understandable reasons), she does get decent results outside bigger tournaments. Some claim her to be mediocre at best while some say she is average and some say she is above average.
Can't deny her amazing punish game along with strong platform pressure and ability to catch landings, but are they enough to balance out her mediocre recovery and ability to land?

Upper mid tier. Her camping ironically is weak because laggy projectiles but her burst and combo games are great. Charge shot is a scary kill option and her frame data is very impressive for a character with that range and mobility. Like Envoy said, she has a slow grab that makes dealing with shields hard and while good, Samus is outshined by better characters.

 

[The-Technique]

Samus's mid range game is legitimately scary and demanding of respect, since she has a bunch of flowchart combos from her amazing dash attack and proceed to pin you down in shield with charge shot once she takes the lead. Unfortunately her options become nonexistent up close and almost every top tier can close in the distance easily and suffocate Samus, and because she's floaty and her roll is mega laggy she has a very difficult time escaping pressure.

Her A buttons for the most part are really good though, her tilts and aerials especially.

 

[Rizen]

Forgot to mention: Samus' weight and floaty physics are great for escaping weight dependent grab combos. Link has nothing on her.

Does Samus get laddered hard by MK?

 

[KakuCP9]

Forgot to mention: Samus' weight and floaty physics are great for escaping weight dependent grab combos. Link has nothing on her.

Does Samus get laddered hard by MK?

I think so. I remember that someone that MK was one her worst MUs due to this, even after the uair nerf. Samus's midrange game can help keep MK in check though the MU is still very skewed to MK (though I don't know much about either characters so I may be wrong).

 

[ARISTOS]

Speaking of mobile characters...
How do you guys view Federation Force (aka Samus) in the current meta?
While she isn't that often used at the top lvl (for understandable reasons), she does get decent results outside bigger tournaments. Some claim her to be mediocre at best while some say she is average and some say she is above average.
Can't deny her amazing punish game along with strong platform pressure and ability to catch landings, but are they enough to balance out her mediocre recovery and ability to land?

She needs better buttons up close. She's dominant at mid-range vs most of the cast and can set herself up nicely to play at that range against a majority of the cast but when she can't set up her gameplan she gets mercilessly bullied.

 

[Deleted member]

The lack of a Ryu mention for Smash 4-ing people makes me sad.

I am no expert at Smash Brothers, but I will mention Ryu for you. ( Please do not get steamed at me and criticize me If I make some kind of mistake or something... )

Ryu can be deadly and kill at very low percents ( Improper DI from the opponent will help Ryu kill them at even low percents ). Keep in mind all of his match ups in top tier is either negative or even ( Except for Fox, I think Ryu wins that one ). In terms of match ups, he is kind of similar to Marth ( Not Characterwise, they are both different... ). I think Marth and Ryu should end up in high tier, I am not sure. Ryu does hit like a truck, and his opponents must be wary.

( Sorry if my description was bad according to you, I just wanted to point out some information of mine. )

 

[Rizen]

I think so. I remember that someone that MK was one her worst MUs due to this, even after the uair nerf. Samus's midrange game can help keep MK in check though the MU is still very skewed to MK (though I don't know much about either characters so I may be wrong).

Scrolls over to MU list. Yeah IcyMist has MK as one of Samus' worst MUs

("Sammy", damnit Gandrayda)


A lot of these charts, even by good players are pretty wack. Lord Mix has Bowser with 4 losing MUs, Ven thinks Zelda goes even with or beats 2/3ths the cast, don't get me started on ESAM's.

 

[The-Technique]

Scrolls over to MU list. Yeah IcyMist has MK as one of Samus' worst MUs

("Sammy", damnit Gandrayda)


A lot of these charts, even by good players are pretty wack. Lord Mix has Bowser with 4 losing MUs, Ven thinks Zelda goes even with or beats 2/3ths the cast, don't get me started on ESAM's.

Only even or slight loss to Cloud Diddy Bayo Sheik Rosa, but loses hard to Duck Hunt and Greninja? That's crazy, either Samus is top 10 or we have another case of "strange-character-opinion"-itis.

 

[|RK|]

Only even or slight loss to Cloud Diddy Bayo Sheik Rosa, but loses hard to Duck Hunt and Greninja? That's crazy, either Samus is top 10 or we have another case of "strange-character-opinion"-itis.

While seemingly optimistic (especially the Diddy MU) it looks more like the spread of a top 20 character, moreso than top 10. Way too many losing MUs and three hard counters seems pretty rough actually.

Actually, even the Diddy MU doesn't seem *that* crazy. With his poor airspeed, Diddy struggles in neutral vs strong projectiles like Charge Shot (from what I've observed). The main way I've seen ZeRo beat them if he's low on shield or something is good ol jumping banana toss, but that's not infallible either.

On the other hand, I feel like Diddy is successful everywhere else. Fair works well, he's fast enough to keep Samus from getting charges for free, banana is extremely useful when Samus doesn't have a charge stored, so on.

Idk - is there an expert on either character around? That's the MU I find most interesting on the chart. And I could just be rambling crazy things.

 

[Lavani]

Far from an expert on either, but from watching some IcyMist vs Diddy sets, my main takeaways are that dash attack's burst range covers the distance Diddy normally wants to play at, and between Charge Shot, dash attack, and even ftilt, Samus has good tools for dealing with Monkey Flips used both offensively and for b-reverse mixups. Samus's punish game also takes her far if the Diddy is playing sloppy/impatiently and spacing moves poorly. IcyMist particularly gets a lot of mileage out of Screw Attack, both as an OoS punish and just throwing it raw and getting away with it (nine times in game 2!). Diddy doing Diddy things looks decidedly stronger and more consistent, though.

It does look evenish when the Diddy doesn't respect dash attack or Screw Attack, but that's more indicative of matchup inexperience than the actual matchup ratio; it starts looking worse when Diddy sits just outside of dash attack's range with bananas and peanuts and doesn't approach predictably (games 4 and 5 in the linked set showcase this well).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pft. I call Ryu vs Samus 6-4 her favor.

 

[Pyrover]

How much it matters is debatable, but Samus has a different tripping animation than most character. When banana hits her, Diddy has to time his followups differently or she just falls out of things as a result. This could throw off a lot of Diddy players, so I wouldn't be too surprised if it's actually slightly in his favor and people just misunderstand how to follow up on her.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate fighting an annoying but good Samus that zones me away from them and spam Charge Shot and Missiles, any way to beat this annoying strategy? The best option is to read their predictable grabs and charge shots as well as dodge / shield a lot, but sometimes that does not work. Help.

 

[|RK|]

I hate fighting an annoying but good Samus that zones me away from them and spam Charge Shot and Missiles, any way to beat this annoying strategy? The best option is to read their predictable grabs and charge shots as well as dodge / shield a lot, but sometimes that does not work. Help.

Samus's weaknesses typically involve the fact that she's not very good at zoning. That said, you shouldn't just be running into her. Charge Shot is frame 3 while she's charging it, so it's usually more effective to get her to stop charging before rushing her down.

Characters with reflectors and good burst range punishes make it riskier for her to mixup grab/charge shot/etc. That's one of the reasons Fox is horrible - then you take his juggles into account and it can be absolutely miserable for her.

For specific and personal MU advice, consider asking the Samus boards or Samus Discord. It'd be much more useful than what we can get into here

 

[MH-Jin]

I hate fighting an annoying but good Samus that zones me away from them and spam Charge Shot and Missiles, any way to beat this annoying strategy? The best option is to read their predictable grabs and charge shots as well as dodge / shield a lot, but sometimes that does not work. Help.

if you have another projectile that's fast and can disrupt charging, it's really useful in the mu. Also gaining stage control is really important.
As a Sheik main, when I gain stage control, it's easy for me to disrupt Samus' charging with needles. This makes it that they have to charge at another point (making them stationary on stage).

it's a useful disruption tactic.

 

[Deleted member]

if you have another projectile that's fast and can disrupt charging, it's really useful in the mu. Also gaining stage control is really important.
As a Sheik main, when I gain stage control, it's easy for me to disrupt Samus' charging with needles. This makes it that they have to charge at another point (making them stationary on stage).

it's a useful disruption tactic.

Samus's weaknesses typically involve the fact that she's not very good at zoning. That said, you shouldn't just be running into her. Charge Shot is frame 3 while she's charging it, so it's usually more effective to get her to stop charging before rushing her down.

Characters with reflectors and good burst range punishes make it riskier for her to mixup grab/charge shot/etc. That's one of the reasons Fox is horrible - then you take his juggles into account and it can be absolutely miserable for her.

For specific and personal MU advice, consider asking the Samus boards or Samus Discord. It'd be much more useful than what we can get into here

I always give my thanks to kind people, it can be really useful for those annoying For Glory Samus types players. Thanks!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I always give my thanks to kind people, it can be really useful for those annoying For Glory Samus types players. Thanks!

also, sometimes the best thing to do is to play the character that troubles you the most. you'll gain a lot more insight that way.

 

[Deleted member]

But if there is one thing in Smash that I hate to fight more than annoying Samus projectile spammers, it is Campy Sonics.

 

[Megamang]

@ShinyLegendary


Thank you for the activity on this thread, and I am not being sarcastic. But you probably want to belay the posts that are blog-ish "I hate this MU, this one bothers me etc etc".

I am not trying to backseat moderate, but I want to explain. You may see similar posts from top players, but that is actually somewhat valuable meta information (though you could argue we let them get away with more than most, which would be fair). The fact that X top player thinks a MU is even, but HATES it, while likes struggling in a losing MU... can give us good insight on what ffrustrates top players. Think about this; if Zero can't find an answer to a certain sequence, the dude at your local won't for sure. Find things that disrupt top players...


This is an answer to your question as well! Watch some recent IcyMIst, ESAM as Samus,... sk8terjay maybe? Idk if hes still around. But watch sAmus matches, and see what kills her. What beats her in neutral. When can she use her combos, and when can you keep her away easily? How does she kill? When does she struggle to kill? How does your character kill her, is he risking a return kill in this situation, what is the chance you will win... etc etc. Really analyze the videos, don't just stare. This will take some practice at first but is the best way to get better in many instances.


Think about options. Don't look for 'Oh, ESAM chose wrong here and got hit', look for 'Oh, this option looks REALLY tough for Samus to even have an answer, even when ESAM knew it happened he had to do a lot to get around it'


PS Zair is incredibleballs and low key one of the best moves in the game. Gggrrrzap. IMO the Robin MU is losing, and to a lesser extent the same with mario, because of this AWSUM BIZZAPIN GUN.

 

[PJB]

So I know this can often be a dangerous topic here, but I’d like to bring up Pikachu in the current meta. When we look at pikachu’s matchup chart, it honestly looks incredible. He essentially goes at least even with almost the entire cast with only Mario and a few others as notable exceptions, arguably wins very important matchups in Cloud and ZSS, and has one of the better matchups with bayonneta. In spite of this however, his results are that of a high tier, coming in at 16th overall I believe from Das Koopa’s latest update (thank you as always by the way). To me this says that either Pikachu is underrepresented, his matchup chart is too optimistic, or he really could just be one of the hardest characters to play effectively and suffers from extended tournament grind issues similar to sheik. What does everyone think?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So currently MM10 today Tweek beat Big_Mak's Sheik 3-2 using his Bayo after he lost game 1 using Cloud. Also Tyroy beat Blank 3-1

Makes me wonder that Bayo seems to have been doing very well in the MU a of late when it was thought that Sheik best her cleanly a while ago.

It it looking "voliatle even" depsite Sheik having all the tools needed to do beat Bayo on paper. Heck Bayo is one of the few characters Sheik's pre-patch 50/50 kill setups can still work on.

I guess it has to do with how badly Bayo can punish Sheik in return. Plus Bat Within can mess up Sheik's BF kill setups.

 

[Deleted member]

@ShinyLegendary


Thank you for the activity on this thread, and I am not being sarcastic. But you probably want to belay the posts that are blog-ish "I hate this MU, this one bothers me etc etc".

I am not trying to backseat moderate, but I want to explain. You may see similar posts from top players, but that is actually somewhat valuable meta information (though you could argue we let them get away with more than most, which would be fair). The fact that X top player thinks a MU is even, but HATES it, while likes struggling in a losing MU... can give us good insight on what ffrustrates top players. Think about this; if Zero can't find an answer to a certain sequence, the dude at your local won't for sure. Find things that disrupt top players...


This is an answer to your question as well! Watch some recent IcyMIst, ESAM as Samus,... sk8terjay maybe? Idk if hes still around. But watch sAmus matches, and see what kills her. What beats her in neutral. When can she use her combos, and when can you keep her away easily? How does she kill? When does she struggle to kill? How does your character kill her, is he risking a return kill in this situation, what is the chance you will win... etc etc. Really analyze the videos, don't just stare. This will take some practice at first but is the best way to get better in many instances.


Think about options. Don't look for 'Oh, ESAM chose wrong here and got hit', look for 'Oh, this option looks REALLY tough for Samus to even have an answer, even when ESAM knew it happened he had to do a lot to get around it'


PS Zair is incredibleballs and low key one of the best moves in the game. Gggrrrzap. IMO the Robin MU is losing, and to a lesser extent the same with mario, because of this AWSUM BIZZAPIN GUN.

Your welcome, it's just this chat is very active + I try to get in the conversation with the others to make interesting claims or to support one another, like what everyone else does in here. This chat is probably the most interesting one so far in my opinion. Thanks for your recommendation, I will give it a try!

 

[Rizen]

I always give my thanks to kind people, it can be really useful for those annoying For Glory Samus types players. Thanks!

Wifi Samus is imo harder than offline. FG has questionable players and connections. You can probably improve more here:
https://www.smashladder.com/netplay

 

[Minordeth]

So currently MM10 today Tweek beat Big_Mak's Sheik 3-2 using his Bayo after he lost game 1 using Cloud. Also Tyroy beat Blank 3-1

Makes me wonder that Bayo seems to have been doing very well in the MU a of late when it was thought that Sheik best her cleanly a while ago.

It it looking "voliatle even" depsite Sheik having all the tools needed to do beat Bayo on paper. Heck Bayo is one of the few characters Sheik's pre-patch 50/50 kill setups can still work on.

I guess it has to do with how badly Bayo can punish Sheik in return. Plus Bat Within can mess up Sheik's BF kill setups.

Right when I read this post, Mr. R steamrolled Tyroy 3-1. So, uh, yeah.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Right when I read this post, Mr. R steamrolled Tyroy 3-1. So, uh, yeah.

Hey I said the MU is still around even I state the ways Sheik cam beat Bayo hard. It just seems Bayo as ways to beat Sheik just as hard in return

 

[Megamang]

I thought Pikachu died bad to shiek when I played pika, and now that I play pika I think this remains true. Its just... hard. Not having much range is frustrating, needles are frustrating, trying to gimp shiek is frustrating. Usmash is actually solid against quick attack, the big hurtbox + giant hitbox means sweetspotting is pretty common.


FWIW, The only time I have taken a set off of Thor (PR'd pika/cloud/CF/Ganon/anyone) was when he was using a pikachu.


He is a very interesting character though. What kind of character does well vs Bayo but not shiek so much? And does better vs Cloud than Mario? He's good.

And tjolt is sick. Breversed tjolt to cover your approach is pretty strong.

 

[TDK]

Salem 3-1 ZeRo

 

[Deleted member]

So I know this can often be a dangerous topic here, but I’d like to bring up Pikachu in the current meta. When we look at pikachu’s matchup chart, it honestly looks incredible. He essentially goes at least even with almost the entire cast with only Mario and a few others as notable exceptions, arguably wins very important matchups in Cloud and ZSS, and has one of the better matchups with bayonneta. In spite of this however, his results are that of a high tier, coming in at 16th overall I believe from Das Koopa’s latest update (thank you as always by the way). To me this says that either Pikachu is underrepresented, his matchup chart is too optimistic, or he really could just be one of the hardest characters to play effectively and suffers from extended tournament grind issues similar to sheik. What does everyone think?

I have been seeing some people say Pikachu is top tier because of his overall good match ups against top tiers and his results, but I do not know if he could qualify as a top tier for now. Pikachu is a good tool against common Cloud players though from my experience.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Holy crap! Salem vs ZeRo GF at MM 10 was almost a repeat of their GF set EVO. Went to game 10 . ZeRo had the lead last game but Salem stole it at the very end!!
The only difference was ZeRo was in Losers and Salem winners. That was an epic match!

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm so tilted right now wtf.

Autolink angles are an abomination, a great set ended on such garbage

 

[FeelMeUp]

that was the worst i've ever seen someone get smash 4'd
even i'm disgusted.

 

[|RK|]

Keep in mind this thread isn't meant to express preferences, etc. That said, it's kind of interesting how frame of reference goes. We all know what Bayo does, especially with rage. It almost seems like people are surprised every time (myself included, honestly). Perhaps ZeRo's momentum prior contributed to that.

On Twitter, ZeRo likened Bayonetta to playing against Melee Jiggs that's fast instead of floaty, and has projectiles. I'm way more of a spectator as far as Melee is concerned, but it seems kind of apt. In the air a lot using giant hitboxes to pressure the opponent, ability to kill off a single error, and has way better defensive tools than offensive ones, leading to patient play.

Thoughts?

 

[The-Technique]

that was the worst i've ever seen someone get smash 4'd
even i'm disgusted.

according to captain zack, zero SDI'd upward causing his own death

still though...

 

[|RK|]

according to captain zack, zero SDI'd upward causing his own death

still though...

I feel like I have to preface this by saying I'm a fan of both players... But I actually don't feel as bad if he SDI'd up, high-key.

I don't understand SDI up when Bayo is off the ground at any point. That said, is Zack sure? I've heard people can just explode sometimes vs rage Bayo regardless of SDI. Not 100% how accurate that is either, but.

 

[Megamang]

To me, the autolink kills are only absurd because they are punishing you for getting out. The way salem lines up the perfect hit is cool with me. and gives bayo some depth and precision to her massive hitboxes.

But outright dying because you were doing the 'right' thing and SDIing? Made me angry the first time, frustrated me when we saw it today.

Does that only happen with SDI up? I just SDI sideways so bayo can't reach with her up specials, you almost never die from pure side-abk combos unless you get ABK's wayyy too high.


I STILL think people play really dumb vs bayo. Salem likes going up and landing on a platform for safety? Hold a banana, glide toss to adjust for her movement, trip her on the platform and kick her a few times. Its something I really expect from top players by now, Bayo should get rekt every single time she is in massive lag in front of you.


Zero's nerves are not great for a top player. I mean, its Salem so what can you say, but all of Salem's wins at GF seems to come from some crazy comeback he kinda brings on himself

 

[Rizen]

Keep in mind this thread isn't meant to express preferences, etc. That said, it's kind of interesting how frame of reference goes. We all know what Bayo does, especially with rage. It almost seems like people are surprised every time (myself included, honestly). Perhaps ZeRo's momentum prior contributed to that.

On Twitter, ZeRo likened Bayonetta to playing against Melee Jiggs that's fast instead of floaty, and has projectiles. I'm way more of a spectator as far as Melee is concerned, but it seems kind of apt. In the air a lot using giant hitboxes to pressure the opponent, ability to kill off a single error, and has way better defensive tools than offensive ones, leading to patient play.

Thoughts?

Spoiler: past Bayo thoughts

People can't play like a TAS and it boils down to a risk/reward ratio. Bayo for example has huge reward off little risk so mistakes are probably going to cost opponents more. This is a big part of judging MUs. Ideally you want to play as safe as your character will allow and capitalize on the opponent's mistakes. Link as a counter point has a lot of lag on things like grab and no juggle breaker. While Link can successfully fight Bayo, he loses in risk/reward heavily. Generally the better the character, the better their reward to risk ratio will be.
-------------------------
's hitbubbles are freaking HUGE; upB beat's Link's Dair. Her Uair is like Ganon's in size. She doesn't have cut and paste combos all the time but always has a strong advantage state. She can side/upB twice and doesn't freefall. Watch game 2 of Raito vs Captain Zach. Raito does escape several times but can't punish Bayo. Then at 5:52 bayo side Bs out of a disadvantaged state, combos a few times, drops for a split second as a read, and proceeds to kill off the top with upB>Uair. This is the true potential of Bayo. She doesn't need 100% true combos when she can turn disadvantage into an easy read and react kill chain off the top at almost any %. She also has Fair with optional hits and the best recovery in the game for side kills.
-------------------------
I don't hate or think she needs to be banned or have rules made against her but do find her annoying. I think the character design is poor and over-tuned. She has so many things going for her. Bullet arts that can't be reflected and can extend most of her attacks. Other attacks with variable commitment like Fair having optional hits. Taunts don't matter but the whole point of taunting is to make yourself vulnerable as a middle finger to the opponent; they shouldn't be cancelable. A supposed weakness in slow startup largely negated by a frame 4 upB that is her key combo starter and doesn't cause freefall. Supposedly bad dodges but with bat within making her spot/air dodge effectively start frame 1. A combo starting/extending sideB that can be used more than once in the air along with witch twist. Impressive hitbubbles on most of her attacks and specials that are even hard for a sword to challenge (upB beats Link's Dair). UpB with set BKB on the initial hit pared with rage and her unique counter for easy single hits. Witch time, the best counter in the game that can slow opponents from projectiles hitting with an AOE effect. This means lingering hitbubbles like bombs, crash bomber and bananas are dangerous to use against WTime but safe against every other counter if spaced a few character lengths away. This also endangers Zairs and other disjointed 'counter-safe' pokes. WTime allows any attacks including combo starters or your choice of smashes or spikes, unlike other counters which are mainly KO style single hits. A ladder combo factoring in WTime and all the crazy up/side B stuff. Things like the above mentioned Fair, bullet arts, upB hitboxes, dunking Dair and leggy Bair/Nar paired with possible the best recovery in the game. Dair like that using Sheik and you won't come back up. A kill Fthrow so you have to respect her grab at high %s, unlike Fox, for example. Shield cancel Bullet climax for almost no risk.

Many characters break one or maybe 2 character conventions but Bayo has so many things going for her. Even if you nerfed witch time, arguably her best move, to obscurity she'd still be top tier. She's an extremely oppressive, low risk/high reward character without a real weakness. I mean she's no Brawl top tier but still very tiring to play around because the versatility of how she can abuse you and escape abuse herself. IMO she has a ton of potential yet to be seen.

searchBayo

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Keep in mind this thread isn't meant to express preferences, etc. That said, it's kind of interesting how frame of reference goes. We all know what Bayo does, especially with rage. It almost seems like people are surprised every time (myself included, honestly). Perhaps ZeRo's momentum prior contributed to that.

On Twitter, ZeRo likened Bayonetta to playing against Melee Jiggs that's fast instead of floaty, and has projectiles. I'm way more of a spectator as far as Melee is concerned, but it seems kind of apt. In the air a lot using giant hitboxes to pressure the opponent, ability to kill off a single error, and has way better defensive tools than offensive ones, leading to patient play.

Thoughts?

I dont know about the comparison playwise that sounds more like a social thing where you see widespread dislike for Puff exists, she's "killing Melee" and so on is the same things you hear about Bayo. Puff uses her multiple jumps and extreme floatiness combined with a few silly hitboxes to walk out and fish for openings, she also has a extremely high risk extremely high reward KO move in Rest tha she is able to employ once her constant weaving and zoning has gotten the opponent to do something unsafe in a effort to hit her and she can get her setups into it. Puff is also the lightest character in Melee so she's at risk to die extremely early at all times.

Bayo on the other hand uses her massive hitboxes and fast moves (up b) to punish one mistake very hard for not much of the same risk that Melee Puff has. If you manage to escape a ladder combo your still in the air and won't have the optimal time needed to punish her landing lag that she also has the option to cancel, can just retreat to ledge and use her ledge stalling to provide safety, can escape with frame 1 Bat with in (which doesn't always put her in a bad spot) or be it you overextended just a little too much Witch Time. She has Melee Puffs great reward but not the same risk she carries so I can't see that comparison from a playwise point of view

 

[Deleted member]

Keep in mind this thread isn't meant to express preferences, etc. That said, it's kind of interesting how frame of reference goes. We all know what Bayo does, especially with rage. It almost seems like people are surprised every time (myself included, honestly). Perhaps ZeRo's momentum prior contributed to that.

On Twitter, ZeRo likened Bayonetta to playing against Melee Jiggs that's fast instead of floaty, and has projectiles. I'm way more of a spectator as far as Melee is concerned, but it seems kind of apt. In the air a lot using giant hitboxes to pressure the opponent, ability to kill off a single error, and has way better defensive tools than offensive ones, leading to patient play.

Thoughts?

Bayonetta is kind of like Melee Jiggs in a way, except Bayonetta sends you into the northern horizon and jiggs in Melee pushes you off so you can not recover. It is kind of hard to compare them because of how different Jiggs in Melee and Bayonetta in Smash 4. Both can be checked, Jiggs being checked by Melee Fox and Bayonetta being checked by Sheik, DIddy Kong I am not sure. Sorry if this information is lacking, but here you go!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well at least we have gotten past trying to compare Bayo to Brawl MK because Yea, say what you want about her but Bayo is definetly no where close to as busted and undisputedly dominant as he was.

Heck, I don't think you could even compare pre 1.1.6 patch Bayo to Brawl MK..

 

[Justinian]

Well at least we have gotten past trying to compare Bayo to Brawl MK because Yea, say what you want about her but Bayo is definetly no where close to as busted and undisputedly dominant as he was.

Heck, I don't think you could even compare pre 1.1.6 patch Bayo to Brawl MK..

I'd argue it's just the opposite. Bayonetta is probably notably more powerful than Brawl MK, but the overall power level in Smash 4 is a lot higher than it was in Brawl, where half the cast was either legitimately terrible or straight-up didn't function.