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simply doesn’t fight until his fully charged waft is ready, then fishes for early waft kills through setups. Lucario is no threat to Wario at 0% and Wario can easily just circle camp from platform to platform (The Wario should ban FD as this strategy isn’t as effective here). Also if wario gets lucario off stage when his waft is ready with a bike by the ledge, Lucario is in a lot of trouble and needs to decide whether to try to go to the ledge regardless, or take a really unsafe angle back to stage, which Wario can punish hard if he predicts that.
In the V4 tier list, I think needs to move down from sixth place to tenth place or eleventh place. Sixth place is a stretch for him and his strengths are not enough for top six. Sure Mario has good results like winning EVO 2015, but Mario has some flaws that prevent him from top six status.
Also I heard wins the match up against which is agreeable, but I would like an explanation on why Pikachu wins the matchup against Cloud..
As for Ness, Lucario can't throw out Aura Sphere at will it's reactable with magnet. Since he can't just toss it at you unless he wants to heal you for a lot of damage the amount of times he can use the charge as a neutral tool is limited. Force palm is a bit less reactable but also can be absorbed helping with another strong kill option of his. Ness does fine in close quarters combat with Lucario and his incredible raw kil power (up air, back throw, bair, Nair at ledge, Dsmash, Fsmash, PKT2, etc) means he won't get to abuse Aura for very long. Speaking of off stage it's very rough for Lucario, PKT eats him up as he doesn't have a way to deal with it, the tail puts up a wall he can't Extreme Speed through and Dsmash is great at catching his ledge grab.
Most Ness players I see place it at advantage or even and personality I've never had alot of trouble with that MU so I can see why Tsu placed him as he did
simply doesn’t fight until his fully charged waft is ready, then fishes for early waft kills through setups. Lucario is no threat to Wario at 0% and Wario can easily just circle camp from platform to platform (The Wario should ban FD as this strategy isn’t as effective here). Also if wario gets lucario off stage when his waft is ready with a bike by the ledge, Lucario is in a lot of trouble and needs to decide whether to try to go to the ledge regardless, or take a really unsafe angle back to stage, which Wario can punish hard if he predicts that.
Basically this. But, as Tsu says, Lucario can fight when Wario needs to deal damage. He needs about 40% for Waft to kill. If you're the one with the lead, he also can't just run away. This is why he has it as -1 instead of something much worse.
I wish that would be really cool if he could it would weaken his confirms out of it even more but that would also be really broken in teams because ig Ness could do that then G&W could do the same with bucket for really quick buckets lol.
Tsu's comments on Twitter suggest it's because DK's physics make him combo fodder for Lucario, while Bowser flies too high for combos like uthrow uair to work.
He also mentioned DK loses to running up and shielding, but Bowser doesn't because of pivot grab...which makes no sense to me, considering DK's pivot grab and throw reward are comparable. (edit: DK's pivot grab has less range than I remembered, I could see this being a valid point)
Tsu's comments on Twitter suggest it's because DK's physics make him combo fodder for Lucario, while Bowser flies too high for combos like uthrow uair to work.
He also mentioned DK loses to running up and shielding, but Bowser doesn't because of pivot grab...which makes no sense to me, considering DK's pivot grab and throw reward are comparable.
No it's not. The reward is similar but their pivot grabs are different. Bowser has significantly more range on his pivot grab. DK's pivot grab is safer though
Defitenly Kirby. It's similar to the Fox matchup where Kirby can easily combo him, and can easily edgeguard him too, except here it's even easier because Captain Falcon is even easier to combo and edgeguard. And also, I know it's an infamous thing, but Kirby can crouch under many of Falcon's stuff too.
Yeah, Kirby wins. It's not as free as people think, though. Falcon can still hit crouch with bair, a well spaced dash attack, etc. Also, Falcon has a crazy advantage state, and actually runs away super well.
One main thing that could help in the MU (imo) is pp utilt from crouch to catch the landing mix-ups, but Falcon still has a huge speed advantage. The one thing that makes it anything more than +1 in my opinion is that Falcon players typically don't choose the character because they like running.
For the Kirby mains:
What exactly happens if the Falcon is on a triplat, gets a lead, and uses a mix of his burst options and speed to play keep away? What can Kirby do? That Falcon dash attack and dash grab make for some strong bait and punish... and run gameplay.
No it's not. The reward is similar but their pivot grabs are different. Bowser has significantly more range on his pivot grab. DK's pivot grab is safer though
The actual range on their pivot grabs is actually somewhat similar, though Bowser's is slightly larger.
What gives the impression of Bowser's being so much longer ranged than is often portrayed is because of difference in attributes: Bowser's pivot length is shorter than DK's, and he also has more traction.
Ganon actually has better reach than swordfighter as long as you don't challenge certain moves like UAir. SF's projectile can't camp and his mobility sucks. Ganon can play footsies and pressure SF then kill fairly early. SF really only wins at close range.
Maybe I'm biased against SF but he just seems like a mess.
If you don't count SF then imo . Ganon's USmash has very little endlag and kills ridiculously early. His Uair has a huge radius that can snuff out Jiggz air game. If she misses a rest it's almost always a free KO with reverse warlock punch regardless of %. Ganon has good shield pressure but I should hope Jigglypuff players know better than to let her shield break. Ganon has good reach in SSB4 and although his frame data is bad he can work with it.
On the other hand Jiggz DA has trample properties for a priory ground burst attack. She obviously has good air movement to swoop in and airdodge>rest is a good punisher but she better pray she doesn't miss. Offstage she wins but it's not as bad as you might think for Ganon because Uair has insane range.
Ganon can space jiggz fine and kill very early.
is even. Ganon out-footsies but she has good combos off throws and frame 5 Dtilt. Offstage her Dair edge guarding is lethal and Ganon really can't edge guard her except a hard read. Her downB phantom pushes like a water wall and can gimp poor recoveries well. Zelda has a lot more combos and setups than people think. But she still has trouble forcing anything, has situational tools, and is also very light. Ganon's a bit slower but doesn't need precision like Zelda. As usual a few good reads or well spaced attacks can bring Ganon the win.
In all these MUs Ganon can't kill from grab but gets a Dthrow combo at low %s and a respectable 13% Fthrow+pummels after that. His grab range is terrible but I like to dash in and shield grab as a spacing mix up.
So in a huge part seeing a ton of misinformation I'm going to do my best to cover a large portion of the false information that surrounds .
The fact he is a tier below every other bottom tier: This claim isnt true because unlike the likes of,,,, has a far more cohesive kit and game plan overall than the above chatacters and his neutral is a large step above most bottom tiers like the ones above mentioned and characters,,,(although ganon is still underrated in neutral due to his burst zone being terrifying.)with his neutral actually being decent(not saying it's high tier or top tier but his neutral is definitely capable. His neutral is decent primarily due to his strong ground game with his amazing jab and his very good set of tilts + his walk is really good,and he has a great dash attack and dash grab to boot as well. He also has good aerials including back air and neutral air both of which are safe(nair has to be the back hit though) both of which autocancel in a short hop and he can even tomahawk with up airs initial autocancel and it also has a very generous ending autocancel,huge range,and kills to boot. Plus his projectile does help in zoner matchups primarily due to it destroying their projectiles as it destroys most projectiles aside from some cases(sheiks needles) and it even has uses vs side b where it can beat most of her options out of pin besides jump which puts her at an awkward position vs him. In general his kit is way too strong to be a tier below everyone else and he actually has a complete kit unlike characters such as,,,,.
The fact he is the worst mii in 1111: I've honestly never understood this one as over the entire course of the game 1111 mii sword has had both better theory and results than brawler. Brawler has not had that many notable placings or wins in 1111 over the entire course of the game aside from some results from LeeT(who doesn't even always go brawler mind you and also uses the other 2 mii s and puff.) While they were old trela has had notable wins over many of Texas's best players even beating karna's pre patch sheik with 1111 sword. Also don't see brawler 1111 being better in theory either as he is already just a direct downgrade to mario in pretty much every area aside from slightly better air speed and run speed and a slightly better up tilt his kit is strictly worse in every way especially in the aerial department his air mobility is worse as marios much higher air acceleration,has far less usable specials and a much worse recovery as super jump punch is very hard to reliably gimp if mario goes low,and he lacks marios smashes. And considering 1111 brawler is really just a massive downgrade in every way aside from slightly better run and air speed which isn't relevant enough to make up for being in much worse in every other area to mario(who is struggling a lot in the meta mind you) I can't see how the idea that in theory 1111is better than 1111.
His mobility. This one is true but people heavily just downplay a lot when people are heavily open to admiting characters likeandbeing very solid but don't mention their mobility issues as much as sword mii's despite both characters I have mentioned have worse mobility than he does. I'm not saying he's better than them but why do people willingly point out his lackluster mobility and not theirs despite both having worse mobility?
He struggles vs range: not really that true as 2 of his worst matchups aren't characters really known for range(well bayonetta sort of) but sheik is a character that isn't really known for range but instead due to her insanely good aggression and pressure. He struggles far more against characters like sheik and bayonetta than he would against a sword character or some highly ranged character. He's actually much better vs those characters as they don't have the frame data to just suffocate him(he's not bad vs mario or ryu though as he can wall them out reliably and even can up b out of mario combos due to its I frames and he doesn't lend himself to getting killed by mario as he doesn't jump that much. And a while back a mii sword played trela in friendlies in ryu mii sword and they asked him about it and he said its even or only +1 for ryu).
His mobility. This one is true but people heavily just downplay a lot when people are heavily open to admiting characters likeandbeing very solid but don't mention their mobility issues as much as sword mii's despite both characters I have mentioned have worse mobility than he does.
...huh? Corrin's mobility issues get mentioned all the time. It's the first point anybody makes when talking about their flaws.
But the main reason it doesn't get mentioned as much is that they have options to deal with it. Corrin has pin and the best dash->shield in the game, while Luigi has fireballs. Their mobility cripples them, sure, but their tools more than make up for them.
Every low or bottom tier that I know of(can't speak for Miis) has one or two decent matchups against a top 15 character. Puff is alright against Sheik, Falco is solid against Mewtwo, Zelda is okay against Rosa, etc. If you look at it that way, it's difficult to flat out call them bad characters who you'll never need to worry about like you could in Melee/Brawl.
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DDD is still garbage though.
For the Kirby mains:
What exactly happens if the Falcon is on a triplat, gets a lead, and uses a mix of his burst options and speed to play keep away? What can Kirby do? That Falcon dash attack and dash grab make for some strong bait and punish... and run gameplay.
I've actually never played a Falcon who camped on tri-plats. But I can imagine it's not good.
Main reason I still see it as Kirby's favor (albeit slightly) is Kirby can still ultimately make one catch that puts Falcon in a really bad situation. ZSS can't be caught or converted on too hard, in comparison. Moreso if she still has Flip Kick.
Yeah, Kirby wins. It's not as free as people think, though. Falcon can still hit crouch with bair, a well spaced dash attack, etc. Also, Falcon has a crazy advantage state, and actually runs away super well.
One main thing that could help in the MU (imo) is pp utilt from crouch to catch the landing mix-ups, but Falcon still has a huge speed advantage. The one thing that makes it anything more than +1 in my opinion is that Falcon players typically don't choose the character because they like running.
I agree with you for the most part. If you're not willing to camp the hell out of Kirby as Falcon, you're kinda just asking to lose.
Although, It's not too crazy difficult to bring back a percent lead against Kirby once his combo windows have narrowed down a bit. Or maintain a percent lead if you've already got it generally and don't mind camping (and you shouldn't mind camping). Tbh if the reason someone plays Falcon is to combo characters to ****, you should want to camp Kirby, it just makes it all the easier.
I will say this, Kirby is one of those light characters than has true combo percents for down throw > knee, and later percent dthrow > bair and uair 50/50's are particularly useful too and often lead to frame traps for more damage at the very least if you don't land the initial hit.
Aggressive, constant approach Falcon just straight up loses. Patient Falcon can keep things pretty close.
I like how this chat answers everyone's questions, it is really nice and supportive. Can someone prove to me when Pikachu wins the match up against Cloud? I believe that Pikachu does win the matchup.
Puff can be a pain sometimes because of her edgeguards (sourspot Nair beats side-B offstage).
A lot of Doc's strengths aren't as effective vs Ganon (His good OOS isn't as good because of Ganon's range, D-throw kill confirms don't work because of Ganon's weight) & he's very easy to juggle, outrange & to edgeguard.
It's still not a big advantage tho, Docnado is a pain offstage & he combo's Ganon pretty hard at low/mid %.
You must be a smart person, how long did it take you to make this post? Thanks for describing the entire character roster and their players in each tournament as well as their status! Keep up the good work!
Ryu is still doing well despite the bad rap he gets (from myself included).
Glad to see Sonic placing very well overall after recent results. Very glad to have picked him up again.
How is Sheik placing so high despite her tendency to get "Smash 4'ed"?
Ryu is still doing well despite the bad rap he gets (from myself included).
Glad to see Sonic placing very well overall after recent results. Very glad to have picked him up again.
How is Sheik placing so high despite her tendency to get "Smash 4'ed"?
Usually when Mr.R and VoiD attend... One of them makes top 8 with the other around top 24+. So they have strong rep at top level. Most regions have that one strong Sheik main like big_mak or Karna doing well at locals and smaller tournaments.
Even though Sheik is light and a fast faller...her superb neutral, frame data and overall oppressiveness in terms of edgeguarding and ledge guarding will always have her do well in tournaments. She's just somewhat exhausting to play during long brackets.
Speaking of Sheik though, I was wondering what people thought of some of her more upcoming/not Mr.R VoiD players such as Javi and Blank.
Blank definitely brings something new with their large usage of footstool combos/locks. Also Blank's overall technical skills seems to be strong (usage of perfect pivots, inc, b reverse etc.). However Blank doesn't have the amazing neutral game of Mr.R...which puts them at a disadvantage against top players. However I really want to see what happens as they grow as a player and in how they play neutral. They also have a win on Tweek's DK.
Also there's Javi (even though he also dual mains Cloud). He's been getting pretty good results and top8 at clutch city 2 (took ZeRo to game 5) and dreamhack Denver. Killer in doubles as evident of his results with MKLeo. Do you think he has the potential become a possible top 10 player? Probably top 20-30 right now?
Well there are only two MU's were I see Sheik suffers from getting "Smash 4'd" those being ZSS and Bayo.
That is really only since both ZSS and Bayo are among, if not the biggest abusers of the "Smash 4'd" factor (barring Lucario) You could spend minutes beating them down and not getting hit and then they get one punish and can potentially erase stocks at very early percents on more characters than just Sheik
It' despite Sheik having vastly superior neutral than either of them. Sheik is looking to slightly win the MU vs ZSS and vs Bayo is voliatle even.
-Bayonetta (Witch Time/Ladder KOs)
-Zero Suit Samus (Ladder KOs/throw into flip kick offstage)
-Donkey Kong (g r a b)
-Bowser (g r a b)
-Lucario (Walking nuclear arsenal bombing run past 100%)
-Bayonetta (Witch Time/Ladder KOs)
-Zero Suit Samus (Ladder KOs/throw into flip kick offstage)
-Donkey Kong (g r a b)
-Bowser (g r a b)
-Lucario (Walking nuclear arsenal bombing run past 100%)
Funny. Those characters are probably the most notorious characters in the game for Smash 4'ing people, and we talk like it's a Sheik-exclusive thing. Why?
Funny. Those characters are probably the most notorious characters in the game for Smash 4'ing people, and we talk like it's a Sheik-exclusive thing. Why?
Even though this applies to all characters i assume people center it towards sheik so much is that she spends most of the game outplaying them only to screw up once and die for it more often or not ZSS being major example in this. The only other reason I would see people center it towards sheik because we've seen sheik being the victim of this ALL the time on stream throughout the whole YEAR (Hikaru vs Mr R, Void/Mr R vs Nairo, Tsu vs Kameme) Concerning Bayo ladders on sheik Void vs Salem at dreamhack ATL is a good set to see sheik avoid these ladders (I think void only died once to a ladder i think?). All in all when it comes to unfortunate situations with rage Sheik is just the poster child of it in everyone's eyes.
You shouldn't look at it like that.
Having some of the best tools for hitting people while also being insanely difficult to hit means you're usually not outplaying your opponent.
Edit: Also, consider this. Sheiks get a ton of stream time. This game is very, very cheesy. If a character's on screen a ton, you see them get cheesed more often than other characters. We see Clouds get gimped a bunch, Bayos SD a bunch, Sheiks get cheesed a bunch, etc. Watching too much of a character can make both their weaknesses and strengths seem more extreme than they actually are.
He always places well. People say Marth's right after the top tiers, probably because Leo's so good, but look how much better CF does in the long run. He's gotten some good placements like 2nd at Civil War. We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.
simply doesn’t fight 
