Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Heracr055]

The lack of a Ryu mention for Smash 4-ing people makes me sad. For example, Ryu puts Sheik into death percent at, say, 60% with a low commital kill confirm. In addition, if Ryu survives her kill setups and survives to very high percent, he can end her at ridiculous percentage (remember Locus killing Mr. R at 48% in game 3 at Zero Saga?)

 

[TDK]

Notice Rosa scores under Fox, Sonic and Mario. Slightly overrated.

Notice Ness scores over Corrin, Luigi, and Marcina. Does this mean Ness is underrated? Or does it mean results don't tell the whole picture?

 

[Rizen]

Notice Ness scores over Corrin, Luigi, and Marcina. Does this mean Ness is underrated? Or does it mean results don't tell the whole picture?

I've been saying is underrated for a long time now. What this means is we should identify trends and see if they persist, like I did with CF. The meta has shown that it's better to have a few terrible MUs and a clutch factor than a mostly even spread. Secondaries are very common and that gives characters like DK, Bowser, and Ness a big boost; they don't have to be dragged down by a few terrible MUs. Ness is good at 'smash4ing'. His Bthrow is devastating and his normals hit like a truck. I can confidently say Ness is better than Lucas even though Lucas is much better at a few MUs, like Rosalina. It's still not a good MU for Lucas; you're better off maining Ness and picking up MK for bad MUs.


The problem with a lot of theory is it doesn't take her glass canon aspects into account. She can dominate characters by cutting off their options like Brawl top tiers and it's easy to say she's fantastic based on that. So why isn't Rosa (and ZSS) scoring higher? She has real issues holding her back, by back I mean top 6-9 she's still really good. If the opponent can outplay Rosa a little and get rid of Luma they can flip the tables. Rosa has a great U/Dair, crouch, luma jab, etc when she's in control. But her feather weight, tall frame that flops around when recovering, lack of combo breaker aerials and greatly nerfed everything without Luma makes her extremely vulnerable to grab combos and other characters' advantage whatevers. Without Luma, who can't act while she's in hitstun, Rosa's fastest aerial is frame 8 Uair. With Luma it's frame 3. It's like Rosa has 2 different states of play. I think this inflates her theoretical MUs; based on perfect play she could be top 3 but people mess up and get grabbed. Luma gets launched. This is why Rosa isn't as solid as Sheik or even Fox; Rosa has a much weaker other half.

 

[|RK|]

Lets talk about :
Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75

He always places well. People say Marth's right after the top tiers, probably because Leo's so good, but look how much better CF does in the long run. He's gotten some good placements like 2nd at Civil War. We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.

PS
Notice Rosa scores under Fox, Sonic and Mario. Slightly overrated.

I wonder how Puff rated in 2016 Melee. I feel like you have to take into account rep with these numbers. If you have one character that is much rarer & gets consistently good results, and they aren't far behind one of the most common characters in the game... That says something.

 

[Deleted member]

Lets talk about :
Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75

He always places well. People say Marth's right after the top tiers, probably because Leo's so good, but look how much better CF does in the long run. He's gotten some good placements like 2nd at Civil War. We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.

PS
Notice Rosa scores under Fox, Sonic and Mario. Slightly overrated.

Good point, I do agree Falcon deserves a raise, but top tier is a stretch. The middle or higher section of high tier is good by me.

 

[Frihetsanka]

We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.

https://twitter.com/FatalityFalcon/status/878319188862943234

That is not the matchup chart of a top 13 character. He might be top 20 though. I would place characters like Mario, Ryu, Pikachu, Luigi, Olimar, Marth, and Lucina above Captain Falcon, at the very least. If you lose 10-15 MUs then you're not top 15. Fatality is incredibly skilled (he was 15 on the PGR last Season) and Captain Falcon has a tendency to do better at mid levels and high levels than at top levels, and Captain Falcon is also a somewhat popular character (I seem to recall him being one of the most popular characters in the game, actually, potentially the most popular non-top tier). Less popular characters, like Corrin or Olimar, might still be better.

Mario is also incredibly popular, which helps with his score. And let's not forget the Ally-factor. I think Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus are solidly better than Mario.

 

[Rizen]

https://twitter.com/FatalityFalcon/status/878319188862943234

That is not the matchup chart of a top 13 character. He might be top 20 though. I would place characters like Mario, Ryu, Pikachu, Luigi, Olimar, Marth, and Lucina above Captain Falcon, at the very least. If you lose 10-15 MUs then you're not top 15. Fatality is incredibly skilled (he was 15 on the PGR last Season) and Captain Falcon has a tendency to do better at mid levels and high levels than at top levels, and Captain Falcon is also a somewhat popular character (I seem to recall him being one of the most popular characters in the game, actually, potentially the most popular non-top tier). Less popular characters, like Corrin or Olimar, might still be better.

Mario is also incredibly popular, which helps with his score. And let's not forget the Ally-factor. I think Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus are solidly better than Mario.

That's a good point about CF with 19 bad MUs. Although a top 15 character can lose 10-15 MUs by looking at Ryu's MU charts he has 13-14 loses on some:
https://twitter.com/Shelryuken/status/905863738192003072
https://twitter.com/s_f_t_ryu/status/776680978588721152
and MKLeo says Marth has 10 loses
https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/904153734514581504
CF does worse than that though.


I never argued Mario was better than Rosa but that Fox was. I've seen people's tier list with Rosa as top 5, which I disagree with. She's 6th-9th imo. To be clear I'd group the top tiers like this:
////

Also I never said CF was top tier.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What this means is we should identify trends and see if they persist, like I did with CF.

This is a very important point that people ignore way to much when it doesn't suit their theory, please don't forget this. Can't keep harping that a character is bad or good when they consistently show otherwise over a long period of time. Granted results don't always show the whole picture but they should be backing up what your claiming, if they keeping showing otherwise consistently, then maybe you need to reevaluate that theory.

 

[Frihetsanka]

That's a good point about CF with 19 bad MUs. Although a top 15 character can lose 10-15 MUs by looking at Ryu's MU charts he has 13-14 loses on some:
https://twitter.com/Shelryuken/status/905863738192003072
https://twitter.com/s_f_t_ryu/status/776680978588721152

If those MU charts are true, then I'd question him being top 12. However, there are other MU charts:

https://twitter.com/Darkshadlegend/status/927327064025452544
https://twitter.com/LocusSK/status/849731099467030529

I believe the truth lies somewhere between. He's not quite as good as Locus or Darkshad think, but better than what Shel and Chanshu think.

and MKLeo says Marth has 10 loses
https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/904153734514581504

While I'd argue MkLeo's MU chart is a tad bit pessimistic, Marth is borderline top 15 and I could easily see him ending up a bit lower (though probably not lower than #17).

I never argued Mario was better than Rosa but that Fox was. I've seen people's tier list with Rosa as top 5, which I disagree with. She's 6th-9th imo. To be clear I'd group the top tiers like this:
////

I mostly agree with your top tier order (although at this point I wonder if Mario and Mewtwo should be considered high tier rather than top tier, although one could easily make a case for them being at the bottom of top tier). Fox is really good and has the potential to be #5 in the game.

It seems to me that in this point in time, top tier could be divided into two or three groups. The first group consists of Bayonetta, Cloud, and Diddy Kong. Those there are clearly the best in the game right now (although you could make a case for Sheik being in this group, I suppose). Then you have Sheik, Fox, Sonic, Rosalina, and Zero Suit Samus, all being on a similar level as well. The third group might belong at the top of high tier, although one could easily make a case for them belonging in the bottom of top tier: Mario, Mewtwo, and Ryu. Some would argue Pikachu as well (and some even argue that Corrin belongs there), though I think both Pikachu and Corrin have too many flaws to really be top tier (especially Corrin). I also don't really like having 13 characters in top tier.

Marth is a very interesting case. For a while many (including me) believed that he was top 10 or top 11. Now it's questionable if he's even top 15. I would personally put Mario and Marth as the currently most overrated characters, although neither of them are overrated by all that much.

Oh, and Donkey Kong and Bowser. They're not top 20, mainly because they struggle to land and recover off the ledge. They could be top 25 though, so, again, not that overrated.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I've been saying people have been severely overplaying Marth's viability and results for a very long time now. MKLeo doesn't use him all that much now (mostly for the Mario and Bayo MUs, which frankly he could do just as well with Cloud tbh) and has actually been preferring to counterpick more specialty characters for some matchups like Meta Knight and Corrin than Marth.
To be completely honest, Marth having a better MU spread than those two or not, he has significantly less CP value IMO because his MU chart against the Top 10 especially is so risky and he doesn't really have anything he can call a super solid win against the entire Top 20 as a whole - at least in my opinion, an ocean of Even MUs, quite a few complicated ones and I guess you can say Mario and Falcon are a pretty close slight advantage is not gonna rock anybody's world. MKLeo uses mostly Cloud now, and to be honest, matchup wise, Marth is going to do nothing that Cloud can't do just as good if not better, or way better if we're talking especially.
Mr. E, which was the second biggest rep for Marth, switches really often between Marth and Lucina and has been going Lucina a very significant portion of his matches, borderline soloing her through some of the bigger tournaments.

 

[Deleted member]

Is Marth even considered top tier anymore, I look at tier lists and see him in top tier but a lot of people are denying it. Very confused if he is top tier or not....

have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

What an interesting question, it made me meditate for a day and a half.

 

[TDK]

The problem with a lot of theory is it doesn't take her glass canon aspects into account. She can dominate characters by cutting off their options like Brawl top tiers and it's easy to say she's fantastic based on that. So why isn't Rosa (and ZSS) scoring higher? She has real issues holding her back, by back I mean top 6-9 she's still really good. If the opponent can outplay Rosa a little and get rid of Luma they can flip the tables. Rosa has a great U/Dair, crouch, luma jab, etc when she's in control. But her feather weight, tall frame that flops around when recovering, lack of combo breaker aerials and greatly nerfed everything without Luma makes her extremely vulnerable to grab combos and other characters' advantage whatevers. Without Luma, who can't act while she's in hitstun, Rosa's fastest aerial is frame 8 Uair. With Luma it's frame 3. It's like Rosa has 2 different states of play. I think this inflates her theoretical MUs; based on perfect play she could be top 3 but people mess up and get grabbed. Luma gets launched. This is why Rosa isn't as solid as Sheik or even Fox; Rosa has a much weaker other half.

- I feel like when you say "Glass Cannon" you're thinking of mewtwo. A key difference between Rosa and Mewtwo is that Mewtwo, in addition to being huge and light, isn't a floaty, so kill confirms are truer for a lot longer on him than Rosa. For an example, the Ding Dong works on Mewtwo for roughly 22%, but only 9% on Rosa. because of this, she actually lives fairly long once she's out of combo percent
- Rosa isn't higher in results because she's an unpopular, "boring", character, like Jigglypuff in Melee. Despite that, she's still tied with ZSS, one of the most popular characters at all levels. She's also really hard, which is why you don't see new Rosa mains breaking out all that often like how you'd see new Cloud or Bayo mains.
- Rosa's best comparison is probably as a lower risk, lower reward version of the Ice Climbers. People used to say the same thing about the Climbers, but they could delete your stock off of one opening. Rosa can't do that, but Luma comes back, and what's to stop Rosa from not engaging during that time? Additionally, as Kirihara
- As I said before, most grab combos have really small windows on her, because she's a floaty. If Luma's still in play, Luma also forces the thrower into shield unless they want to be hit by her after throwing.
- Luma can act while Rosa's in hitstun, actually, because Luma is basically stunned while Rosa's in hitstun, but only for 80% of the time that Rosa's in hitstun. So not right away, but she can act earlier. The only time Luma can't act is during that first part of hitstun, while Rosa's in a throw animation, while they're using Launch Star, or while Rosa's in a star/screen KO animation.
- Nair isn't a great combo breaker, but it's only a frame later than up air and flips her hurtbox, potentially moving her out of the way. Her hurtbox is also deceptively thin, she's basically a stick figure.
- Your whole "People assume perfect play for Rosa when in reality Luma gets launched" I don't get. It's like you assume that Rosa's completely helpless without Luma. Sure, she's worse, but she's not bad and is certainly capable of fighting off opponents for 13 seconds by herself, or just running away for 13 seconds.
- Rosa may have one weaker half than Sheik or Fox, but she also has one far stronger half. I feel like you really only look at negatives for a lot of characters in the game, rather than positives, in a game where, clearly, positives are more important ( being prime examples).

Rosa's matchup spread is also much better than Fox's, being able to dominate a large portion of the cast with less losing matchups. There's only two Matchups that Rosa's agreed to lose, and the Meta Knight matchup is improving for Rosa. Sheik has a better matchup spread in terms of losing matchups, but is more sucseptible(sp?) to falling victim to the game's mechanics.

I agree with you on Ness being underrated, but not to the extent of his score being above Luigi, Corrin and Marcina.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Is Marth even considered top tier anymore, I look at tier lists and see him in top tier but a lot of people are denying it. Very confused if he is top tier or not....

It's a tough call, but I personally lean towards him being "not quite top tier." I used to think he was top tier, but lately MKLeo has been playing more Cloud rather than Marth, and Mr. E (possibly the 2nd best Marth) also uses Lucina about equally with Marth. It doesn't help that both Marth and Lucina have a royally tough time against Sonic, and seems to struggle against many of the top tiers. It doesn't help that two more tough MUs are Sheik and Diddy, and both of them are very popular. On the upside, he seems to do well against Mario and Ryu, and possibly Bayonetta. Then again, I'm not a Marth main so my brain could easily be fuzzy on a few matchups. Even still, with Marth (and Lucina's) results dipping lately, I would say that Marth might no longer be a top tier.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a tough call, but I personally lean towards him being "not quite top tier." I used to think he was top tier, but lately MKLeo has been playing more Cloud rather than Marth, and Mr. E (possibly the 2nd best Marth) also uses Lucina about equally with Marth. It doesn't help that both Marth and Lucina have a royally tough time against Sonic, and seems to struggle against many of the top tiers. It doesn't help that two more tough MUs are Sheik and Diddy, and both of them are very popular. On the upside, he seems to do well against Mario and Ryu, and possibly Bayonetta. Then again, I'm not a Marth main so my brain could easily be fuzzy on a few matchups. Even still, with Marth (and Lucina's) results dipping lately, I would say that Marth might no longer be a top tier.

What placement should Marth be at? Somewhere around 13 - 20?

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

What placement should Marth be at? Somewhere around 13 - 20?

Eh, lemme get back to you on that. I need to look at my own personal tier lists and see if I'd like to make any modifications.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Is Marth even considered top tier anymore, I look at tier lists and see him in top tier but a lot of people are denying it. Very confused if he is top tier or not....

I said this a few pages ago, but I don't think he ever was a top tier. Nowadays most people are slowly placing him back a few spots on their tier lists, but I don't think they're placing him back far enough, which leads to your next question:

What placement should Marth be at? Somewhere around 13 - 20?

I recently decided to play around with the tier list maker and while organising my version of the Top 15, Marth and Lucina came in 14th-15th respectively. I think that's about right for them.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

@ShinyLegendary Alright man, here are my thoughts on the top tiers:

Spoiler

First, I'd like to look at the tournament results for all the cast. These are the scores according to Das Koopa's tournament thread (https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/) right now:

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75
Donkey Kong: 68
Toon Link: 61.75
R.O.B.: 58.25
Lucina: 55
Mega Man: 48.5
Samus: 39
Shulk: 37.5
Villager: 36
Yoshi: 34
Bowser: 32.5
Lucario: 32.25
Lucas: 32
Olimar: 32
Ike: 31
Roy: 30.75
Mr. Game & Watch: 27
Wario: 24
Link: 20.5
Little Mac: 16.5
Duck Hunt: 16
Falco: 13.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 13.5
Pit: 13.5
Charizard: 13
Robin: 11.5
King Dedede: 9.5
Ganondorf: 6
Palutena: 5.5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Zelda: 3.5
Dark Pit: 3
Dr. Mario: 1.5
Pac-Man: 1
Kirby: 1
Mii Gunner: 1
Jigglypuff: 0.25

When you look at that list, I bolded all of the characters that are over 100 points plus Marth and Lucina, since we were talking about whether Marth (and by extension Lucina) is a top tier or not. When looking at the characters with over 100 points, Marth and Lucina are much lower than that. We need to remember that tournament results aren't everything. However, these results do show that certain characters do better in tournament and thus are most likely stronger overall. Again, tournament results aren't everything but it's a good starting place.

Secondly, let's go over max potential of the top tier in general, their best and worst matchups, and see if in my opinion they'd be in my personal top tier on my tier list or not (a source for matchup chart compilations: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7b0tx4/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v7/ ):

Bayonetta- Has the best tournament results right now. Concerning matchups, there seems to be a consensus among top players that Diddy Kong is Bayo's toughest matchup, and might be the only one in which she loses against. Sheik does ok against Bayo, but that one is closer to even than the Diddy Kong one, where Diddy most likely wins. ZeRo is still the best player in the world, and he's able to still beat Bayo mains consistently with Diddy Kong. I've seen people say that Sonic and Marth/Lucina do well against her, but those results haven't been consistent enough yet. She has incredible strengths, with her few weaknesses being that she's light, is tall, and relies on witch time and her air game to land KOs.

Cloud- 2nd best results, mainly due to sheer popularity, how easy he is to pick up, and his sheer amount of great strengths. However, his large frame and terrible recovery are very blatant weaknesses. Pikachu and Sheik are two characters that have incredible edge guarding potential, and Cloud most likely loses against those two characters. ZeRo was also able to do very well against Anti when he counterpicked as Cloud in a national that happened a few months ago.

Diddy Kong- Consensus is that Rosalina and Mega Man are his toughest matchups, with occasionally Mario being tough. Other than that, Diddy tends to go close to even with or win any other matchup. He's notable for being a good counterpick against Bayonetta. His recovery is average and his banana peel can turn the tide of a battle. Even still, Diddy has a ton of strengths and his weaknesses are harder to exploit, even if he's not as popular as Cloud.

Those three are the most popular characters at the top level and get the most consistent tournament results by far. I would say that Bayonetta, Cloud, and Diddy Kong are certainly the top 3 in top tier. After that, you get a bunch of others:

Sheik, Fox, Sonic, and Mario all get consistent tournament results still, but much less consistent than the top 3. Sonic tends to do better in Japan than America, specifically. Rosalina and ZSS have been getting more consistent at the top level lately, and Rosa has some really stupid good moves (such as up-air and Luma) that make her shine. As long as the opponent isn't using Cloud or Meta Knight, Rosalina mains tend to do just fine. Mewtwo and Ryu aren't as popular as some other characters, but still have insane moves that cause them to be threatening in many matchups. Mewtwo's fallen off slightly recently due to Abadango picking up Bayo, but he's still a good character. Out of the bolded names, the ones I think that miss out on top tier for sure are Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Marth, and Lucina. All four of them have worse tournament results than the others under Das Koopa's system, and have tougher matchups overall. Marcina does ok against Bayonetta, but Diddy Kong can be a royal pain and Cloud can be an uphill battle. They also struggle against Sonic. MK and Falcon have tough matchups of their own against the top tier. Examples would be Meta Knight struggling against Mario and Falcon struggling against most of the best characters in general.

In short, here is how my personal tier list shapes up at the moment:
Group 1: > >
Group 2: = =
Group 3: = > =

Gatekeeper:

Just misses: = / >

This leaves Marcina in 13th/14th place, most likely. Of course, this isn't the full tier list. I'm just listing off my thoughts on the meta right now related to the characters I bolded in the list.

My tournament experience includes going to locals and attending my first regional recently. So, I'm not a top player and thus my knowledge is most likely more limited than top players. However, I did my best to explain my summary of opinions and I also have at least experienced the tournament scene and done research, which helps.

 

[Rizen]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

I'm just saying Rosa's weaknesses might be bigger than we thought. She supposedly has an incredible MU chart and has won big tournaments like Civil War and (crud) ...whatever kirihara won before that. But she has significantly worse long term results and what's the reason for that.
In my experience as Link, Rosa seems really bad but after you get rid of Luma and stop her stage control and advantage she's a very winnable MU.

After the top 10 who make up top tier 's top of high tier. Then it's a jumble of possible contestants who are hard to order imo:
/
and more high tiers who are a little worse etc. If Marth's not 12th best who is? I do think Marcina are overrated but can't really place who else they're worse than

I'm grouping Marcina as one. There's no point trying to place almost identical characters like them and the Pits separately.

 

[ARGHETH]

...whatever kirihara won before that.

Frame Perfect 2.

 

[TDK]

But she has significantly worse long term results and what's the reason for that.

Less players than the other top tiers? High learning curve? Bad matchup with the most common character across all levels of play?

Dabuz also won ARMS saga and the Big House 7 and rarely ever misses top 8. Rosa's results are kinda like 's where it's usually 1 top 8, 1 top 24+, and barely anything else.

 

[MH-Jin]

Less players than the other top tiers? High learning curve? Bad matchup with the most common character across all levels of play?

Dabuz also won ARMS saga and the Big House 7 and rarely ever misses top 8. Rosa's results are kinda like 's where it's usually 1 top 8, 1 top 24+, and barely anything else.

It's usually worse for Rosa though since Kirihara (2nd best Rosa now)attends way less than Dabuz. So if Dabuz does not get top 8... Then it reflects even more badly on Rosa's results at top level

At least Mr.R and VoiD both have a shot at top 8. Also Javi and Karna seems to be on the rise nowadays

 

[FamilyTeam]

I know we generally don't post personal tier lists/MU charts here, but since this was brought up, I decided to update my MU chart for Lucina (which I believe applies to its entirety for Marth as well).
The source of my opinions are either my own experience with the MUs or me directly asking and discussing the MU with both the mains and the Marcina lab (though I've had some of these discussions very long ago and sadly forgot some details). We don't agree on absolutely everything, but it seems most were pleased with the results.
The first list includes all characters, the second includes the most common-ish characters we are used to seeing in our day-to-day meta.

Spoiler: Full List

Spoiler: Trimmed List (most common characters only)

I might've forgotten to include a few characters in the second list, but it's not that big of a deal, as you can just look at the full list.
MKLeo's list once again, for reference:

The Marth MU chart, sorry for the wait ☹ im working on the anothers 😄 pic.twitter.com/BWkj0hegOh

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) September 3, 2017

It's not that much different. He believes Bayonetta is a loss (which to me makes him insisting on using Marth fighting that MU an even bigger mystery), that Bowser/DK definitely beat him (after I got more experience in both matchups I believe it's even and most seem to share this view), that Fox is definitely Even, that Falcon is Even and not Slight Advatange, Luigi being Even while Mario is Slight Advantage (which I definitely find odd) and other smaller things.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby match ups for all you people here, this is my opinion.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Granted, we did talk about Kirby for a bit, but ideally let's not just post random MU charts (or tier lists). Top player charts (and tier lists) get away with it because they have demonstrated top level knowledge (by definition). But out of context charts have the effect of derailing instead of adding to conversation.

 

[Deleted member]

Granted, we did talk about Kirby for a bit, but ideally let's not just post random MU charts (or tier lists). Top player charts (and tier lists) get away with it because they have demonstrated top level knowledge (by definition). But out of context charts have the effect of derailing instead of adding to conversation.

^

Agree with this person, do not make the same mistakes I did ( I wanted my posts deleted ). Anyways, Samus in the future should get a raise in V4 Tier List.

 

[Ferbo.]

is way too high

 

[Deleted member]

is way too high

So we are going to get back to this, huh? I think Corrin is fine where he/she is at right now, maybe a little drop ( maybe ), but he/she is not too high.

 

[Ferbo.]

So we are going to get back to this, huh? I think Corrin is fine where he/she is at right now, maybe a little drop ( maybe ), but he/she is not too high.

imo corrin has an alright combo game with only decent frame data and an alright matchup chart.

 

[Laken64]

imo corrin has an alright combo game with only decent frame data and an alright matchup chart.

If you mean aerial strings that can lead up to 40% and juggling and frame trap situations as alright I don't know what to tell you. Corrin is probably the most combo heavy of the sword characters with Roy as a close 2nd. Speaking of Corrin's mu spread among the top tiers, it's pretty solid with an advantage over , going even with and and slightly losing but doable mus such as. are considered his worst mus but are also completely doable as shown by Cosmos. Could you be more specific about why you think corrin is too high?

 

[Ferbo.]

Oh **** I'm blind lol.
Pardon, I originally saw Marth lower than Corrin, as I only glanced at the tier list for a good 3 seconds before making my quite uneducated comment. However I still think Meta Knight should be a bit higher.
My *********** is incomprehensible

 

[Laken64]

No problem dude just keep in mind that this tier list is like 5-6 months old and that there is a new one in the works coming out soon.

 

[MH-Jin]

If you mean aerial strings that can lead up to 40% and juggling and frame trap situations as alright I don't know what to tell you. Corrin is probably the most combo heavy of the sword characters with Roy as a close 2nd. Speaking of Corrin's mu spread among the top tiers, it's pretty solid with an advantage over , going even with and and slightly losing but doable mus such as. are considered his worst mus but are also completely doable as shown by Cosmos. Could you be more specific about why you think corrin is too high?

You mean her worst Mus right?

 

[MercuryPenny]

i've thought for a while now that mario is too basic and exploitable to survive in the long run.

i'm starting to think that statement is applicable to marth as well.

 

[Frihetsanka]

is way too high

I think her current spot is actually pretty reasonable, now that we've seen what Cosmos can do (and MkLeo, to some extent).

Speaking of Corrin's mu spread among the top tiers, it's pretty solid with an advantage over , going even with and and slightly losing but doable mus such as. are considered his worst mus but are also completely doable as shown by Cosmos.

She could potentially have a slight advantage over Rosalina and go even with Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo. This leaves Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, and Cloud as the truly bad MUs (and those are probably just slight disadvantage anyway).

Corrin is pretty good. If Cloud weren't in the game I think we'd see a lot more Corrin players. Unfortunately for Corrin, Cloud has a similar MU spread that is better in most cases, so many potential Corrin players might have learned Cloud instead.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

i've thought for a while now that mario is too basic and exploitable to survive in the long run.

i'm starting to think that statement is applicable to marth as well.

Marth has Leo.

But both characters just depends on the players to push them. They need character loyalists with the fundamentals similar ANTi and others, since people think of them as "fundamentals: the character" and that stigma keeps them from being played with a high level of nuance.

Marth has Leo for that though imo. When i saw him demolish ally's Mario before, I knew he put forth a ton of time into Marth.

 

[JB333]

Lets talk about :
Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75

He always places well. People say Marth's right after the top tiers, probably because Leo's so good, but look how much better CF does in the long run. He's gotten some good placements like 2nd at Civil War. We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.

PS
Notice Rosa scores under Fox, Sonic and Mario. Slightly overrated.

I feel that there is a reason why Falcon's score is so high. When calculating scores, we're taking into consideration every region, and Japan is really where Falcon has placed well recently. I'm not gonna say that Falcon hasn't placed well in the states. There are some Falcons besides Fatality doing well (Cashmere and Gael, who took a set off of Wadi 3-2 at Famicon), but the chunk of his results come from Japan.

I think that Falcon may be top 15 in Japan, but in other regions like the U.S, I'd say he's 20-25... You could argue top 20, but Fatality's MU charts makes that placement seem a little too generous.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I am not sure about Mario myself. Unless Ally can rise backback to his 2016 preformance levels
. I can only see Mario standing and relevance in the meta to go down in the future.


Well compared to other top tiers.

Mario does ok vs

May lose slightly to

And seems to stuggle hard against .

Mario seems to have SEGA characters even more than swords now.

He may have the worst MU spread of the top tier characters.


Not to mention he has rough MU's with a few high tier characters as / and if you count those as high tier

 

[BTVolta]

I feel that there is a reason why Falcon's score is so high. When calculating scores, we're taking into consideration every region, and Japan is really where Falcon has placed well recently.

I'd agree with your post if this was a recently thing, but if you look through the history of the data project Falcon is no stranger to these high placings
Phase 5 placing: 17th
Phase 4 placing: 14th
Phase 3 top 16/8 placing: 16th/19th
Final 1.1.6 top 16 un/weighted placing: 15th
Final 1.1.6 top 8 un/weighted placing: (un)16th/18th
With consistent results like this for well over a year it's pretty weird how Falcon is even denied top 20 at times when he's repeatedly shown his match up spread isn't holding him back from staying meta relevant and placing well.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Maybe im missing something, but pk boys, wario, and game and watch being slight disadvantage confuses me. I guess with pk boys it's a matter of kill throws and confirms out of throws, plus keeping him off stage with pk thunder, but wario and game and watch confuse me, is it being able to take stocks out of nowhere with waft and judge/barrel, eliminating a stock of rage aura? Idk.

Lucas and Ness can also F-Smash Lucario's Aura Sphere and Force Palm for: damage, stocks, and stage control if the reflected move does not kill.

With proper timing they can even reflect Aura Sphere with their backs facing Lucario.

 

[Routa]

Speaking of mobile characters...
How do you guys view Federation Force (aka Samus) in the current meta?
While she isn't that often used at the top lvl (for understandable reasons), she does get decent results outside bigger tournaments. Some claim her to be mediocre at best while some say she is average and some say she is above average.
Can't deny her amazing punish game along with strong platform pressure and ability to catch landings, but are they enough to balance out her mediocre recovery and ability to land?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Speaking of mobile characters...
How do you guys view Federation Force (aka Samus) in the current meta?
While she isn't that often used at the top lvl (for understandable reasons), she does get decent results outside bigger tournaments. Some claim her to be mediocre at best while some say she is average and some say she is above average.
Can't deny her amazing punish game along with strong platform pressure and ability to catch landings, but are they enough to balance out her mediocre recovery and ability to land?

Samus is a good character just underwhelming compared to other good characters. One of her biggest weaknesses is dealing with shield (unless your above her then she will pop your shield for free with Screw Attack) and getting her shield hit. She lacks a good option to deal with shield, can't tomahawk or really grab as it's super slow, her aerials don't provide safe pressure though they have good range. On the defensive she has no OOS options aside Up B and you still have to be close to her for that to land (Up air and Fair start too high so her next fastest option is to just drop shield and jab and that's not good) this forces her to play more of a turtle style game which she's good at but she's slow so escaping pressure is hard for her. She also is a character of good kill power and terrible kill power in one. Her down smash in particular is terrible and while strong her up smash hardly works on most grounded opponents and it's easy to fall out of even unintentionally yet at the same time her charge shot is strong and has setups and her nair and bair have great strength.

She on the fringe of legitimately viable characters imo but still good enough that you can succeed with her at high level.