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Notice Ness scores over Corrin, Luigi, and Marcina. Does this mean Ness is underrated? Or does it mean results don't tell the whole picture?
I've been saying
is underrated for a long time now. What this means is we should identify trends and see if they persist, like I did with CF. The meta has shown that it's better to have a few terrible MUs and a clutch factor than a mostly even spread. Secondaries are very common and that gives characters like DK, Bowser, and Ness a big boost; they don't have to be dragged down by a few terrible MUs. Ness is good at 'smash4ing'. His Bthrow is devastating and his normals hit like a truck. I can confidently say Ness is better than Lucas even though Lucas is much better at a few MUs, like Rosalina. It's still not a good MU for Lucas; you're better off maining Ness and picking up MK for bad MUs. theory is it doesn't take her glass canon aspects into account. She can dominate characters by cutting off their options like Brawl top tiers and it's easy to say she's fantastic based on that. So why isn't Rosa (and ZSS) scoring higher? She has real issues holding her back, by back I mean top 6-9 she's still really good. If the opponent can outplay Rosa a little and get rid of Luma they can flip the tables. Rosa has a great U/Dair, crouch, luma jab, etc when she's in control. But her feather weight, tall frame that flops around when recovering, lack of combo breaker aerials and greatly nerfed everything without Luma makes her extremely vulnerable to grab combos and other characters' advantage whatevers. Without Luma, who can't act while she's in hitstun, Rosa's fastest aerial is frame 8 Uair. With Luma it's frame 3. It's like Rosa has 2 different states of play. I think this inflates her theoretical MUs; based on perfect play she could be top 3 but people mess up and get grabbed. Luma gets launched. This is why Rosa isn't as solid as Sheik or even Fox; Rosa has a much weaker other half.I wonder how Puff rated in 2016 Melee. I feel like you have to take into account rep with these numbers. If you have one character that is much rarer & gets consistently good results, and they aren't far behind one of the most common characters in the game... That says something.Lets talk about
Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75
He always places well. People say Marth's right after the top tiers, probably because Leo's so good, but look how much better CF does in the long run. He's gotten some good placements like 2nd at Civil War. We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.
PS
Notice Rosa scores under Fox, Sonic and Mario. Slightly overrated.
Good point, I do agree Falcon deserves a raise, but top tier is a stretch. The middle or higher section of high tier is good by me.Lets talk about
Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75
He always places well. People say Marth's right after the top tiers, probably because Leo's so good, but look how much better CF does in the long run. He's gotten some good placements like 2nd at Civil War. We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.
PS
Notice Rosa scores under Fox, Sonic and Mario. Slightly overrated.
https://twitter.com/FatalityFalcon/status/878319188862943234
That's a good point about CF with 19 bad MUs. Although a top 15 character can lose 10-15 MUs by looking at Ryu's MU charts he has 13-14 loses on some:
////
This is a very important point that people ignore way to much when it doesn't suit their theory, please don't forget this. Can't keep harping that a character is bad or good when they consistently show otherwise over a long period of time. Granted results don't always show the whole picture but they should be backing up what your claiming, if they keeping showing otherwise consistently, then maybe you need to reevaluate that theory.
If those MU charts are true, then I'd question him being top 12. However, there are other MU charts:
While I'd argue MkLeo's MU chart is a tad bit pessimistic, Marth is borderline top 15 and I could easily see him ending up a bit lower (though probably not lower than #17).
I mostly agree with your top tier order (although at this point I wonder if Mario and Mewtwo should be considered high tier rather than top tier, although one could easily make a case for them being at the bottom of top tier). Fox is really good and has the potential to be #5 in the game.I never argued Mario was better than Rosa but that Fox was. I've seen people's tier list with Rosa as top 5, which I disagree with. She's 6th-9th imo. To be clear I'd group the top tiers like this:
especially.What an interesting question, it made me meditate for a day and a half.
- I feel like when you say "Glass Cannon" you're thinking of mewtwo. A key difference between Rosa and Mewtwo is that Mewtwo, in addition to being huge and light, isn't a floaty, so kill confirms are truer for a lot longer on him than Rosa. For an example, the Ding Dong works on Mewtwo for roughly 22%, but only 9% on Rosa. because of this, she actually lives fairly long once she's out of combo percentThe problem with a lot of
being prime examples).
It's a tough call, but I personally lean towards him being "not quite top tier." I used to think he was top tier, but lately MKLeo has been playing more Cloud rather than Marth, and Mr. E (possibly the 2nd best Marth) also uses Lucina about equally with Marth. It doesn't help that both Marth and Lucina have a royally tough time against Sonic, and seems to struggle against many of the top tiers. It doesn't help that two more tough MUs are Sheik and Diddy, and both of them are very popular. On the upside, he seems to do well against Mario and Ryu, and possibly Bayonetta. Then again, I'm not a Marth main so my brain could easily be fuzzy on a few matchups. Even still, with Marth (and Lucina's) results dipping lately, I would say that Marth might no longer be a top tier.
What placement should Marth be at? Somewhere around 13 - 20?
Eh, lemme get back to you on that. I need to look at my own personal tier lists and see if I'd like to make any modifications.
I said this a few pages ago, but I don't think he ever was a top tier. Nowadays most people are slowly placing him back a few spots on their tier lists, but I don't think they're placing him back far enough, which leads to your next question:
I recently decided to play around with the tier list maker and while organising my version of the Top 15, Marth and Lucina came in 14th-15th respectively. I think that's about right for them.
's top of high tier. Then it's a jumble of possible contestants who are hard to order imo:/
Frame Perfect 2.
Less players than the other top tiers? High learning curve? Bad matchup with the most common character across all levels of play?
's where it's usually 1 top 8, 1 top 24+, and barely anything else.It's usually worse for Rosa though since Kirihara (2nd best Rosa now)attends way less than Dabuz. So if Dabuz does not get top 8... Then it reflects even more badly on Rosa's results at top levelLess players than the other top tiers? High learning curve? Bad matchup with the most common character across all levels of play?
Dabuz also won ARMS saga and the Big House 7 and rarely ever misses top 8. Rosa's results are kinda like
Granted, we did talk about Kirby for a bit, but ideally let's not just post random MU charts (or tier lists). Top player charts (and tier lists) get away with it because they have demonstrated top level knowledge (by definition). But out of context charts have the effect of derailing instead of adding to conversation.
^
So we are going to get back to this, huh? I think Corrin is fine where he/she is at right now, maybe a little drop ( maybe ), but he/she is not too high.
If you mean aerial strings that can lead up to 40% and juggling and frame trap situations as alright I don't know what to tell you. Corrin is probably the most combo heavy of the sword characters with Roy as a close 2nd. Speaking of Corrin's mu spread among the top tiers, it's pretty solid with an advantage over
, going even with and and slightly losing but doable mus such as. are considered his worst mus but are also completely doable as shown by Cosmos. Could you be more specific about why you think corrin is too high?
You mean her worst Mus right?If you mean aerial strings that can lead up to 40% and juggling and frame trap situations as alright I don't know what to tell you. Corrin is probably the most combo heavy of the sword characters with Roy as a close 2nd. Speaking of Corrin's mu spread among the top tiers, it's pretty solid with an advantage over
I think her current spot is actually pretty reasonable, now that we've seen what Cosmos can do (and MkLeo, to some extent).
She could potentially have a slight advantage over Rosalina and go even with Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo. This leaves Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, and Cloud as the truly bad MUs (and those are probably just slight disadvantage anyway).Speaking of Corrin's mu spread among the top tiers, it's pretty solid with an advantage over
Marth has Leo.
I feel that there is a reason why Falcon's score is so high. When calculating scores, we're taking into consideration every region, and Japan is really where Falcon has placed well recently. I'm not gonna say that Falcon hasn't placed well in the states. There are some Falcons besides Fatality doing well (Cashmere and Gael, who took a set off of Wadi 3-2 at Famicon), but the chunk of his results come from Japan.Lets talk about
Bayonetta: 476.5
Cloud: 475.75
Diddy Kong: 377.5
Sheik: 325
Fox: 278
Sonic: 270
Mario: 202.25
Rosalina & Luma: 163
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Mewtwo: 154.5
Ryu: 132.75
Captain Falcon: 122.75
Meta Knight: 101.75
Greninja: 87.25
Peach: 79.25
Pikachu: 78.5
Ness: 75
Luigi: 74.25
Corrin: 73.75
Marth: 70.75
He always places well. People say Marth's right after the top tiers, probably because Leo's so good, but look how much better CF does in the long run. He's gotten some good placements like 2nd at Civil War. We should seriously consider CF for an 11-13th spot on the list, above Marth and MK but below Ryu.
PS
Notice Rosa scores under Fox, Sonic and Mario. Slightly overrated.
./ and if you count those as high tier
I'd agree with your post if this was a recently thing, but if you look through the history of the data project Falcon is no stranger to these high placings
Lucas and Ness can also F-Smash Lucario's Aura Sphere and Force Palm for: damage, stocks, and stage control if the reflected move does not kill.
Samus is a good character just underwhelming compared to other good characters. One of her biggest weaknesses is dealing with shield (unless your above her then she will pop your shield for free with Screw Attack) and getting her shield hit. She lacks a good option to deal with shield, can't tomahawk or really grab as it's super slow, her aerials don't provide safe pressure though they have good range. On the defensive she has no OOS options aside Up B and you still have to be close to her for that to land (Up air and Fair start too high so her next fastest option is to just drop shield and jab and that's not good) this forces her to play more of a turtle style game which she's good at but she's slow so escaping pressure is hard for her. She also is a character of good kill power and terrible kill power in one. Her down smash in particular is terrible and while strong her up smash hardly works on most grounded opponents and it's easy to fall out of even unintentionally yet at the same time her charge shot is strong and has setups and her nair and bair have great strength.
