Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[FeelMeUp]

Every option besides ledge jump is situational unless your character has strange properties(example being Luigi's normal getup invincibility) on one of them.
Most good top tiers can 50/50 you at the ledge over and over again and it's really obnoxious. Jump bypassing trump while being unreactable and allowing you to control the drift completely makes it the only consistent, reliable ledge option.

 

[Trifroze]

which of these characters have a neutral on the level of sheik or diddy?

It doesn't have to be on the same level when you can do this. True combo from start to finish other than the knee which is probably always a 50/50 but then you can read the airdodge into the ground with a Falcon Punch. And that's pretty awesome.

Some characters have too good of an air mobility to pull that off on without a sequence of reads though, but characters like Diddy, Ryu and anyone FE get hit pretty hard.

Whether your neutral is great or pretty good doesn't matter much. A more important thing is how much damage you can dish out and how early you can take stocks because that's what makes opponents scared and forces them to play a low risk low (sometimes medium) reward game. Falcon's OoS is bad aside from powershield -> jab which affects his neutral a lot but his burst is amazing, and the effect that burst combined with the reward he gets from it has on your opponent's play is what matters.

That also goes for any other character that can do a lot of damage when they get in. Little differences in neutral just don't matter when you have kill setups at half the % Sheik or Diddy do.

 

[Dripple]

Pac - Man SSSS teir

 

[my_T]

It doesn't have to be on the same level when you can do this. True combo from start to finish other than the knee which is probably always a 50/50 but then you can read the airdodge into the ground with a Falcon Punch. And that's pretty awesome.

Some characters have too good of an air mobility to pull that off on without a sequence of reads though, but characters like Diddy, Ryu and anyone FE get hit pretty hard.

Whether your neutral is great or pretty good doesn't matter much. A more important thing is how much damage you can dish out and how early you can take stocks because that's what makes opponents scared and forces them to play a low risk low (sometimes medium) reward game. Falcon's OoS is bad aside from powershield -> jab which affects his neutral a lot but his burst is amazing, and the effect that burst combined with the reward he gets from it has on your opponent's play is what matters.

That also goes for any other character that can do a lot of damage when they get in. Little differences in neutral just don't matter when you have kill setups at half the % Sheik or Diddy do.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Falcon is significantly different from other heavy hitters in the roster like Ryu, Bayo, DK, Luigi, Ness, Bowser, Lucario, etc. Falcon has a much better neutral than all of them as well as a better disadvantage state than most of them (not significantly better). Then you bring up Falcons footstool combos that can lead to death starting at EXTREMELY low percents and can pull this off through such practical means like a dash grab, uair, or nair.

What other characters can do this reliably and practically? MK, Bayo, ZSS, and Luigi? As far as I know these are the only other characters with a reliable and practical means of pulling off these insanely rewarding true death combos and the situational requirements seem pretty strict in regards to fall speed, percentage, and stage positioning. I could be wrong though.

Regardless, at the end of the day neutral dominant characters are still by far the most consistent characters in the strongest regions in the world (NA and JPN) and it's been like this for a long time. So yeah, I would say the little differences in neutral do matter.

 

[Rizen]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Falcon is significantly different from other heavy hitters in the roster like Ryu, Bayo, DK, Luigi, Ness, Bowser, Lucario, etc. Falcon has a much better neutral than all of them as well as a better disadvantage state than most of them (not significantly better). Then you bring up Falcons footstool combos that can lead to death starting at EXTREMELY low percents and can pull this off through such practical means like a dash grab, uair, or nair.

Say whaaat? Falcon's disadvantage isn't very good. He's easy to gimp and juggle. I really don't see how CF's neutral is better than Bayo, Luigi or Lucario with aura. CF's neutral is hard to compare to DK's as it's better rushdown but worse pokes. The only one I agree with is CF>Ness.

 

[TDK]

Invasion 14 (61 Entrants) (Conneticut)

1st: MattyG
2nd: Zoan
3rd: Pelca
4th: Squidboy

CMU Showdown 2 (59 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Rayquaza07
2nd: LOE1
3rd: BooBear
4th: DKDudeMan

Donut Dub 4 (51 Entrants) (Somewhere in Carolina)

1st: 6WX
2nd: RFang
3rd: Ferf
4th: Leaf FC (1111 Guest Size)

@Das Koopa what's your rule on Arcadians?

 

[PMMikey]

I assume you're newer around here,
quite a few people would argue that, yes, they should be side by side. They share a lot of their best strengths and both were helped out a lot by patches. But Marth historically has been used far more than Lucina (she has only very recently seen a boost in results and usage) so Marth has far more results, so people that separate the two often do so on that basis.
I don't think it's unreasonabe to think there is a gap between the two myself, but if this gap exists, it's likely very small. Definitely smaller than the official list has them. I'd still rather see the two together.

To the question of how different they are: what their moveset encompasses and most of their handling attributes are the same, but their similarities stop there. They play similar to each other, but they each have their own playstyle.

I'm not new, but I was just wondering if it was just due to Marth being used more or if it was really because he's that much better.

 

[FamilyTeam]

At this point, it's more due to Marth being used more than anything else, I feel. The list has Lucina 8 spots behind him already, and that was concluded long before most of the notable stuff that has happened to her this year.
Maybe in the next one the gap will be very small or not even there. it's hard to say.

 

[PMMikey]

I hope so, with her performance lately seems like to me we have a shot bring Lucy up.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I only find it amusing how at top level she has had about as much success as a secondary character as Cloud (though Cloud has a better solo record).

 

[TriTails]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Falcon is significantly different from other heavy hitters in the roster like Ryu, Bayo, DK, Luigi, Ness, Bowser, Lucario, etc. Falcon has a much better neutral than all of them as well as a better disadvantage state than most of them (not significantly better). Then you bring up Falcons footstool combos that can lead to death starting at EXTREMELY low percents and can pull this off through such practical means like a dash grab, uair, or nair.

I lost you when you said Falcon has a better disadvantage.

The man easily has one of the worst disadvantages with him being one of the easiest character to combo (Luigi's late N-air to FJP, for example, has a 10% range on Falcon when it is true and kills. Like what.), a recovery that kills itself, and horrible landing options.

I'm not sure about neutrals, but I won't disagree much on Falcon having a better neutral than Luigi, at least. His speed allows for a more consistent punishes and his kill confirms are both safe and kill early, which makes his neutral a lot more threathening overall. Luigi doesn't have any of that, so he can struggle ending his opponents' stocks early and safely, which is always better than racking up damage and feeding them rage.

 

[UberMadman]

Luigi's nair is better than the entirety of the rest of Captain Falcon's disadvantage state combined.

 

[chaos11011]

Invasion 14 (61 Entrants) (Tristate?)

1st: MattyG
2nd: Zoan
3rd: Pelca
4th: Squidboy

CMU Showdown 2 (59 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Rayquaza07
2nd: LOE1
3rd: BooBear
4th: DKDudeMan

Donut Dub 4 (51 Entrants) (Somewhere in Carolina)

1st: 6WX
2nd: RFang
3rd: Ferf
4th: Leaf FC (1111 Guest Size)

@Das Koopa what's your rule on Arcadians?

Invasion is Connecticut/New England

 

[TDK]

Karisuma 13 (~106 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Earth (Ordered that way on the bracket)
2nd: Ranai
3rd: Taiheita
4th: Edge
5th: Ri-ma
5th: ikep
7th: Masashi
7th: Mangalitza
9th: Sigma
9th: NGA
9th: Masha
9th: 9B
13th: Kisha
13th: Lickey*
13th: FILIP
13th: Kento

Halo was one hit away from making top 16 winners side, but got Rage MK Laddered and died at 30. Sigh.


Oh, and in Italy: quiK 3-1 iStudying

 

[DunnoBro]

So collecting data on Bayo Witch Twist vs ZSS grab

Ignoring damage racking, whiffs, or ledge snap or second hits from WT. So far it seems like Top Bayos kill confirm more off WT than Zero suit does off grab.

Will compile the data to be more presentable soon. But overall that's pretty sad. It's a shame the smash community can only accept something is broken AFTER nintendo themselves patch it out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Falcon is significantly different from other heavy hitters in the roster like Ryu, Bayo, DK, Luigi, Ness, Bowser, Lucario, etc. Falcon has a much better neutral than all of them as well as a better disadvantage state than most of them (not significantly better). Then you bring up Falcons footstool combos that can lead to death starting at EXTREMELY low percents and can pull this off through such practical means like a dash grab, uair, or nair.

What other characters can do this reliably and practically? MK, Bayo, ZSS, and Luigi? As far as I know these are the only other characters with a reliable and practical means of pulling off these insanely rewarding true death combos and the situational requirements seem pretty strict in regards to fall speed, percentage, and stage positioning. I could be wrong though.

Regardless, at the end of the day neutral dominant characters are still by far the most consistent characters in the strongest regions in the world (NA and JPN) and it's been like this for a long time. So yeah, I would say the little differences in neutral do matter.

Did you say CFs neutral is better than Bayo's?

 

[my_T]

I lost you when you said Falcon has a better disadvantage.

The man easily has one of the worst disadvantages with him being one of the easiest character to combo (Luigi's late N-air to FJP, for example, has a 10% range on Falcon when it is true and kills. Like what.), a recovery that kills itself, and horrible landing options.

I'm not sure about neutrals, but I won't disagree much on Falcon having a better neutral than Luigi, at least. His speed allows for a more consistent punishes and his kill confirms are both safe and kill early, which makes his neutral a lot more threathening overall. Luigi doesn't have any of that, so he can struggle ending his opponents' stocks early and safely, which is always better than racking up damage and feeding them rage.

come on guys, read. Never explicitly said Falcon disadvantage > Luigi disadvantage. I actually agree with you that luigi's is better, only because his recovery is a little bit better if you can mash.

I feel that you're overlooking some things though. Compared to the list of characters that I mentioned (Luigi, DK, Ryu, Ness, etc) Falcon has better ledge options, faster frame data in the air and his jab, long range, ridiculous ground mobility, Overall better air mobility, and better shield safety. Some of the characters I mentioned are lacking quite a bit in some of these areas.

I suppose you can make a good argument that his disadvantage is just as bad as most of those characters. They're all kinda bad in different areas. Luigi and Ness for example take forever to land and can struggle to do so if the opponent has good anti airs or disjoints. Ryu has a super linear disadvantage state since he can't weave in the air unless he uses FADC in the air and has a very linear recovery. The Heavies have bad ledge options and slow/laggy aerials. They're all close enough so whatever

 

[DunnoBro]

Naw falcon's disadvantage is bottom tier. Notably worse than Luigi, Ness, and Ryu. His ledge options aren't particularly good either except for:

Wakeup raptor boost at kill percent
And his weirdly long ledge roll (despite lacking great options out of it)

Meanwhile Luigi has nair
Ness has airdodge
Ryu has Focus

Falcon lacks any kind of mix-up, hell you can let him falcon dive you to tech and get a guaranteed punish. Usually the stock.

Hell some characters can't even jab luigi. (Like Sheik)

DK's is bottom tier along with him, probably worse though.

 

[my_T]

Did you say CFs neutral is better than Bayo's?

I think Falcons is just as good if not better. Falcons mobility does wonders for his neutral whereas Bayo's grounded mobility specifically hinders her neutral quite a bit. There's more to it than this but Falcon can suffocate certain characters with his mobility and Bayo's inability to do this is what gives characters like Ness, Tink, or Luigi a fighting chance against her.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Falcon's neutral is great. His reward is absolutely bonkers vs most of the cast and coupled with the fact that he can force unreactable 50/50s in neutral over and over, he becomes a pretty dominating force against every character below him on the tier list.
Unfortunately, he's a little ***** that can't take a hit, so that advantage state and neutral doesn't mean anything once he hits the higher echelon of the cast.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Falcon is the very definition of high risk/ high reward character. Basic my yea his grab conversions and punishes are insane. But he will likely estroyed just as bad vs other
characters with amazing grab conversions. or can easily take stocks off of punishing Falcon. .

Falcon struggles in MU'S where the opponents has less risk for equal or almost as equal reward.

Falcon basically needs to press his advantage as hard as possible to avoid falling into disadvantage or it can easily be over for him. Fatality did it well at Civil War. But you really need to be playing near flawlessly for such MU'S for sure.

 

[HoSmash4]

Having Falcon's brust range and safe aerials + jab is an amazing neutral although slightly linear

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Falcons is just as good if not better. Falcons mobility does wonders for his neutral whereas Bayo's grounded mobility specifically hinders her neutral quite a bit. There's more to it than this but Falcon can suffocate certain characters with his mobility and Bayo's inability to do this is what gives characters like Ness, Tink, or Luigi a fighting chance against her.

Falcon is super linear. He wants to do one thing. His neutral is good at what he wants to do, but when what he wants can be shut down........

Douglas is BONED!!!!!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

In some other recent news, ANTi did an interview where he discussed a few things.

Basically he still goes on how he dislikes the rage mechanic that it gives the chance for lower-level players to beat skilled ones.
He says really is not top 10 outside of the meme Ally and himself started.

is anywhere from #3-6 on his tier list and is # 1

Man more and more pro players are saying Bayo is # 1 without the results to back it up. This becoming near Ryu levels of overhyping. Also.. if ANTi dislikes rage so much, maining is really not going to help with that opinion...lol

 

[NairWizard]

Top players may be really good at the game, but they say some really, really silly things sometimes.

Thank God for Dabuz, a top player who actually knows what he's talking about 95% of the time. And won't speak on the other 5% that he doesn't know about.

 

[Tizio Random]

Icarus III (114 Entrants) (Italy)

1st: quiK
2nd: Fire
3rd: Robo~Luigi
4th: iStudying
5th: MarthForever
5th: Shunf
7th: Dinamirer
7th: ElMoro
9th: Danu
9th: El_Bardo
9th: G-Danzee
9th: Smuff
13th: Kitsunebi
13th: Destany
13th: Sim-Max
13th: Fake

Not 100% sure on some secondaries but this is pretty much it.
Really nice tournament overall, unfortunate streaming issues aside, and good showing for Europe in general. Sadly our best players only occupied the 4 bottom spots on Top 8 but we are powering up and we hope to travel more!
Also, AMAZING play from Fire , that was the best Zard I've ever seen, unfortunately quiK's ZSS was too much and he was forced to switch to his, still very good, Pikachu.

 

[FamilyTeam]

ZeRo made a followup to what he said on his stream, this time far calmer and more ellaborated.
He raises a lot of good points (and most were even pointed out by a few Lucina mains in this thread in the past) and he even cites some stuff from MKLeo.

 

[Nah]

5th: MarthForever

this still amuses me lol

 

[FeelMeUp]

Over the course of the entire video ZeRo only used the word "jab" once while never mentioning ftilt. And it wasn't even about Marth.
That's the whole reason you play him over Lucina...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

7th: ElMoro

April just keeps being a better month for the green dino, eh?

 

[|RK|]

I still don't like the scapegoating rage gets, considering how rarely it actually causes a lower level player to win over a stronger one. I usually see top players getting straight up outplayed when they're upset - but I digress.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I still don't like the scapegoating rage gets, considering how rarely it actually causes a lower level player to win over a stronger one. I usually see top players getting straight up outplayed when they're upset - but I digress.

Wow so even top players Jon once in awhile. On a side note YAY for zard getting phenomenal results again!

 

[Minordeth]

The number one reason top players lose to lesser players is poor decision making when under pressure. From Zero jumping too much and using monkey flip as a crutch, to Ally trying to re-engage immediately after disadvantage, to (insert top player here) using poor S/DI when they know better, to something as simple as ESAM reflexively air dodging.

Rage is a comeback mechanic. It's a reward for surviving, or a punishment for failing to push your advantage and seal the stock. If you die to an opponent with maxed out rage, you played poorly for more than just the last two seconds of a match.

 

[BTVolta]

I still don't like the scapegoating rage gets, considering how rarely it actually causes a lower level player to win over a stronger one. I usually see top players getting straight up outplayed when they're upset - but I digress.

They might be outplaying them, but what rage is changing is how many times. If Ryu at 100% needs less interaction to seal a stock than ryu at 0%. He's more vulnerable in other areas(trading costs more stage control at higher percents), but gets scarier doing the things he already likes to do.

This is probably what a some top players dislike. They feel they earned their advantage through consistent wins and when their opponent gets an easier path to their same results in the match they feel their opponent didn't deserve it.They can also just not like comeback mechanics. Can't say for sure what everyone thinks. Just conjecture from what I see.

 

[DunnoBro]

Rage only highlights already dumb things imo

Like how obnoxiously hard it is to get a kill in this game. It boils near to the point that hail maries are a real threat.

Even without Rage, Ryu and DK kill obnoxiously early. But their kill confirms are easy, and they get to make A LOT of mistakes fishing for them. They'd still be annoying to fight, but also less balanced.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Icarus III (114 Entrants) (Italy)

1st: quiK
2nd: Fire
3rd: Robo~Luigi
4th: iStudying
5th: MarthForever
5th: Shunf
7th: Dinamirer
7th: ElMoro
9th: Danu
9th: El_Bardo
9th: G-Danzee
9th: Smuff
13th: Kitsunebi
13th: Destany
13th: Sim-Max
13th: Fake

Not 100% sure on some secondaries but this is pretty much it.
Really nice tournament overall, unfortunate streaming issues aside, and good showing for Europe in general. Sadly our best players only occupied the 4 bottom spots on Top 8 but we are powering up and we hope to travel more!
Also, AMAZING play from Fire , that was the best Zard I've ever seen, unfortunately quiK's ZSS was too much and he was forced to switch to his, still very good, Pikachu.

Has BlueLink gone inactive?

 

[|RK|]

They might be outplaying them, but what rage is changing is how many times. If Ryu at 100% needs less interaction to seal a stock than ryu at 0%. He's more vulnerable in other areas(trading costs more stage control at higher percents), but gets scarier doing the things he already likes to do.

This is probably what a some top players dislike. They feel they earned their advantage through consistent wins and when their opponent gets an easier path to their same results in the match they feel their opponent didn't deserve it.They can also just not like comeback mechanics. Can't say for sure what everyone thinks. Just conjecture from what I see.

Thing is I rarely see situations where rage genuinely affects anything like that. Ryu and DK kill early anyways, and it's not as if rage is an unknown factor. It doesn't surprise anyone at this point, and yet...?

Prince Ramen's uair had a bit of rage on it, sure. But was it obvious it would kill? For certain. Same with Seagull's bair, Locus's Shoryuken, etc. But you could say the same of the opposite - from Sheik's Bouncing Fish to Diddy usmash. Rage hasn't - from my perspective - changed any outcomes from what they would have been already.

Well, Luhtie vs ZeRo notwithstanding.

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon's linear neutral doesn't really matter when you can't stand/jump/poke/shoot projectiles safely despite being half a stage across. Once upon a long ago I was bored and thus labbed how long it takes fast characters to perform their fastest action on the opponent from half an FD across and I think Falcon (dash grab) and Mac (dash attack) were tied for the fastest at 29 frames. Not sure if Pikachu was faster with QA in the end but yeah.

Really fast characters can't be shut down defensively because from any decent distance the defending player always has more reason to be scared. Instead it's probably better to play at a range where both characters have unreactable options, which means that the one with better OoS options and reward has the edge. You have to respect the opponent's reward like you have to respect their OoS when playing neutral. Like said Falcon's OoS is pretty bad (still better than Greninja HHEH) but his reward still requires the opponent to play safe. Rising uair and bair seem underutilized against shorthops and taller characters though.

Falcon is mostly shut down in disadvantage, not in neutral. Even though he has really good juggles, it doesn't take much to get decent juggles on him, and if the opponent has an actually good juggle game (i.e. limit Cloud and Fox) then Falcon is still considerably more dead against them than they are against him after neutral is done with.

I still think Falcon has a fairly even top-high tier matchup spread / matchup ratios are unimportant to consider for a character like him. His neutral is linear but capable of punishing just about everything from anywhere and his advantage and disadvantage are both on the extreme end, so whoever has a better understanding of the other player's habits or makes a few crucial correct guesses wins. That's why the ditto is so stupid/amazing.

Characters are meant to have equal weaknesses and strengths but then certain characters have matchups where the weaknesses prevent the character from ever utilizing their strengths (or the strengths prevent the weaknesses from ever being abused), but in Smash 4 Falcon's case it actually magically works really well.

Naw falcon's disadvantage is bottom tier. Notably worse than Luigi, Ness, and Ryu. His ledge options aren't particularly good either except for:

Wakeup raptor boost at kill percent
And his weirdly long ledge roll (despite lacking great options out of it)

Pikachu actually has the same ledge roll distance, some other characters probably do as well, and it's "balanced out" by worse invincibility frames. Regarding great options out of it, Falcon has turnaround jab.

Also if wakeup raptor boost qualifies as a ledge option (I do think it does because of the pullback on its startup), then I'd also put ledge jump into falcon dive up there since it beats shields, jumps and moderate hitboxes and gets people from really far away, plus if you miss there's a slight chance the opponent will mess up the punish due to weaving.

 

[Nu~]

I still hold the opinion that rage is an intelligent design decision. The reason why it gets so much flak is because our definition of "outplayed" is flawed.

Top players like ANTi and Mr.R will cry about how rage allows weaker players to get undeserved wins. They feel that because they got more nuetral wins and more conversions, they were the better player in that match and should have taken it.


...But that isn't logical at all when you take a more holistic approach to the game.

Sakurai used rage as a way to re-balance both the character archetypes that have historically always dominated smash, and the chars that never had a chance before.


In smash bros, we're all used to metas where speedy lightweights strangle half the cast with ease. They're hard to hit, pressure really well with unreactable attacks, have long conversions/combos, and have more options to choose from than any other characters in the game.

The further your char gets from that model, the less viable your char tends to ends up. In smash 4 however, all of these traits have abusable counters now. You no longer have to be in that club to contest with them.

You may be hard to hit and have a myriad of options in neutral, fox, but option-starved DK only needs 3 grabs to erase you.

You may have long conversions and exert a lot of pressure, sheik, but Bowser gets stronger the longer you take to finally finish the job.


Emblem Lord brought this question up a while back:
How much are you really getting "outplayed" when you're DK and sheik is dragging you across the entire screen?
You have far fewer options in nuetral which makes it absurdly difficult to stop her onslaught in the first place. Sheik, on the other hand, wins nuetral for free against 2/3 of the cast and converts it into upwards of 50% on average. The DK player has to work far harder to get that grab than you think.


If a "weaker player" manages to catch you slipping 3 times with their DK when your sheik is D E S I G N E D to be extraordinarily safe, is he/she really a bad player? Are they really such a bad player if you couldn't seal the stock of a char with the worst disadvantage state in smash 4 before 120%?

Is it somehow blasphemy that top tiers have actual flaws to counteract their extreme strengths now?

But yeah...ANTi and Mr.R can keep sobbing about how smash 4 is "RNG sometimes" and allows "weaker players to win unfairly".


The main downside I see with rage is that some already bad chars like Pacman and jigglypuff get screwed further by it. But that may just be a show of their poor character design rather of a flaw in rage's design.
Losing to the shield button alone is unacceptable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This Nu guy right here.

Someone bring the rep system back and give this dude some green.