Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Now that it's mentioned, couldn't Mega Man's fsmash deal with Bayo planking fairly well?

 

[Red Stache]

Sakurai made her bad on purpose folks, I think it's time to accept that.

( You might be joking about it. But I can''t tell for sure. I apologize if you were. )

If that's the case. Then Ganondorf and Zelda were made bad on purpose.
Almost everything Ganon and Zelda have is nonfunctional and very poor.
Pretty much every character stomps them into the dust, as they have next to nothing to combat most others.
Obviously, they might have few good match-ups and some good points. But even that is debatable. Last I knew, Ganondorf was talked about having an unwinnable match-up against Sheik. And no one's even gotten started on Zelda's match-ups. ( Let alone, King Dedede's...)

Jigglypuff has more good things about her, then the other bottom tiers. Even though that isn't saying much...
She is still Low Tier though.

I don't think Jigglypuff is made bad on purpose.
As she does offer a very unique game-plan and play style. That adds a lot to the meta game.
But, in order for her to add even more to the meta game; she needs quality of life buffs.
Will that day come where she does get the buffs she needs? ( As well as for, King Dedede, Zelda, and Ganondorf )
Can't say if she will get them.
But, I hope she does. As I would be very glad if she did, along with others that need the buffs.

My wishful thinking aside:
Jigglypuff is not really a relevant character to be talked about, very much. Even though I wish she was.
So I don't see a lot of point to talk about her, and not for say: Top or High Tiers.
As those characters are the ones changing the meta game and defining it. As well as ones that may drop out or are rising into said tier positions.

There are a lot of characters in the low tier that have very poor tool kits.
Many of them need buffs of some sort.
I don't think any of them were made bad on purpose.

 

[Krysco]

Isn't Jigglypuff one of only two characters to have never been directly buffed, nerfed or otherwise altered by a patch that wasn't an entire cast change (such as the shield change)? The other being Mario? Characters like Ganon, Zelda, Falco, Wii Fit, Jr. They've all gotten buffs while Puff hasn't gotten anything iirc. I think that should say enough for how much the creators care for the character. If she doesn't end up as the worst even after that, that just goes to show how poor the gameplan of anyone worse than her really is.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Nah Jigglypuff was definitely made bad on purpose she's always been considered the "joke" character in smash. (Melee was a combination of a few lucky breaks due to mechanics and Pichu taking the joke character role) even though she isn't bad in 64 she was a much more relevant character in the late 90's with her frequent anime appearances and appearances in other media during the Pokémon craze. Fast forward to brawl where she wasn't even going to make it in the game she simply wasn't relevant anymore and only stuck around because of her smash fanbase. So likely she has returned to her joke character status along with her being a irrelevant Pokémon now unless Sakurai changes his design approach to Puff it's unlikely she will ever be good again.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Would Be pretty interested in seeing a ryu matchup chart from you

It's just a buttload of even matches, with some losses to top tiers and a few mid/high tiers. Solid wins over lower tiers.

 

[Thinkaman]

The rhetoric of how unplayable, horrible, irrelevant, ect. that these characters are is pretty silly.

It pretends that 1v1 top-level competition is the only context that exists, while simultaneously being very ignorant of that very context historically.


Ganon, Jigglypuff, and Zelda are all non-trivially better in FFA or team formats. They are also all non-trivially better at lower levels of play. And to be blunt, by "lower levels of play", I mean "the levels of play of the majority of people posting here." (Hey, if you want me to lock this thread so that only the PGR can post, we can arrange that...)

Yet at the same time, if you do want to talk just competitive 1v1s, some perspective might be in order. Smash 4 Jigglypuff looks like Meta Knight compared to Brawl Ganon, who looks like Bayonetta compared to Melee Kirby. Even the most pessimistic interpretation has to concede that every character in Smash 4 is better than 30% of Melee's roster and 20% of Brawl's roster.

I've won decently sized-local events against competitive players with Jigglypuff and Ganon. (In fact, that was before the favorable buffs and nerfs.) I'd like to claim I'm just that much better than everyone, but that just isn't true.


It was bad enough having to listen to 6 years of people saying Jiggs was unplayable in Brawl, while I consistently won most the tourneys in St. Louis with her. (And she was bad, but people talked like she was Melee Kirby.) But it requires too much disbelief to hear on repeat how Smash 4 Jiggs/Zelda/Ganon--who are all significantly better characters than Brawl Jiggs, to say nothing of Brawl Ganon--are just complete garbage that everyone should ignore.


tl;dr - Tiers exist, but dang, have some perspective and drop the hyperbole.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The rhetoric of how unplayable, horrible, irrelevant, ect. that these characters are is pretty silly.

It pretends that 1v1 top-level competition is the only context that exists, while simultaneously being very ignorant of that very context historically.


Ganon, Jigglypuff, and Zelda are all non-trivially better in FFA or team formats. They are also all non-trivially better at lower levels of play. And to be blunt, by "lower levels of play", I mean "the levels of play of the majority of people posting here." (Hey, if you want me to lock this thread so that only the PGR can post, we can arrange that...)

Yet at the same time, if you do want to talk just competitive 1v1s, some perspective might be in order. Smash 4 Jigglypuff looks like Meta Knight compared to Brawl Ganon, who looks like Bayonetta compared to Melee Kirby. Even the most pessimistic interpretation has to concede that every character in Smash 4 is better than 30% of Melee's roster and 20% of Brawl's roster.

I've won decently sized-local events against competitive players with Jigglypuff and Ganon. (In fact, that was before the favorable buffs and nerfs.) I'd like to claim I'm just that much better than everyone, but that just isn't true.


It was bad enough having to listen to 6 years of people saying Jiggs was unplayable in Brawl, while I consistently won most the tourneys in St. Louis with her. (And she was bad, but people talked like she was Melee Kirby.) But it requires too much disbelief to hear on repeat how Smash 4 Jiggs/Zelda/Ganon--who are all significantly better characters than Brawl Jiggs, to say nothing of Brawl Ganon--are just complete garbage that everyone should ignore.


tl;dr - Tiers exist, but dang, have some perspective and drop the hyperbole.

*applauds* Thank you. Tbh every time I hear "Well it's a low tier, it shouldn't be used ever" I die a little inside. When people put so much value on tiers (not saying everyone on HERE does but I'm talking about people who use tiers as a benchmark) that it cuts down on character diversity then it becomes a painfully boring game to watch.

 

[Game7a1]

Isn't Jigglypuff one of only two characters to have never been directly buffed, nerfed or otherwise altered by a patch that wasn't an entire cast change (such as the shield change)? The other being Mario?

The other was Dedede, who was only directly nerfed. Why he never received any buff compensation is unknown.

 

[Lord Dio]

Tbh whenever a bottom tier gets brought up, it feels like it's always discussing their flaws. This also seems to apply to some low and maybe mid tiers. No character is unplayable. Difficult? Yes. Not someone you should play at your very first tournament? Yes. But......better in casual play? Yes. Better in teams or multiplayer matches? Yes.
Gentle reminder that low-tier Palutena has taken a set off of ZeRo.
Also, 8 inches had multiple highlight reel worthy plays against ZeRo at the latest Ignition with Ganondorf. Including an up air gimp, bodying ZeRo in the ditto, and an up-tilt two frame. He lost, and for the most part got destroyed and shut down in neutral (which isn't unexpected since it's ZeRo).


Speaking of those last two paragraphs, that match has made me do a little thinking about Ganondorf. Whenever discussed, his main flaw is said that he cannot approach, but if the opponent messses up and/or he does get in, he can get a good deal of damage on the opponent. This was pretty obvious watching 8 inches, ZeRo shut down his approaches when playing Lucina, and 8 inches only got in a couple times with Wizard's Foot. But the two times 8 inches took stocks off ZeRo's Lucina, as well as their Ganon ditto, made me think about something I have never seen be discussed: Ganon's edgeguard game.
I feel that Ganon's moveset makes him ideal for edgeguarding. Offstage he has up-air gimps, his dair has that "true spike" aspect to it (and it's sourspot hurts just as much and can be used for stage spikes), he has the high-risk high-reward option of going for side-b offstage, nair is very good for keeping people offstage, and he has footstool setups into dair and down-b offstage, as well as up-b into side-b offstage.
As for onstage edgeguarding and ledgetrapping....many of his moves can mean the end of a stock if you get hit by them on or at the ledge at medium to high percents. Fair, nair, bair, his smashes, are all good options. During the ditto, 8 inches catches ZeRo rolling in with a reverse fsmash. Down tilt and up tilt (as 8 inches has shown) are powerful two-frame tools. If you catch the opponent getting up with Flame Choke, ftilt at medium to high percents will send most characters too far away to recover.

All in all, nobody really talks about Ganon's edgeguard game, when it looks to be really good.
Thoughts?

 

[|RK|]

I imagine every character in this game can win games in top 8 if you have a strong secondary. That's more than you can say for other characters.

If you have a Cloud for the rest of bracket and you need to play, say, Fatality in top 8, you can break out Puff.

Part of what makes this game so fun. Not every character is good, sure. But every character has some use somewhere against a stronger character.

AC's duo of Metaknight and Falco as one example, Bloodcross's Charizard and Fox (tho Zard is good, IMO), etc.

 

[MistressRemilia]

The rhetoric of how unplayable, horrible, irrelevant, ect. that these characters are is pretty silly.

It pretends that 1v1 top-level competition is the only context that exists, while simultaneously being very ignorant of that very context historically.


Ganon, Jigglypuff, and Zelda are all non-trivially better in FFA or team formats. They are also all non-trivially better at lower levels of play. And to be blunt, by "lower levels of play", I mean "the levels of play of the majority of people posting here." (Hey, if you want me to lock this thread so that only the PGR can post, we can arrange that...)

Yet at the same time, if you do want to talk just competitive 1v1s, some perspective might be in order. Smash 4 Jigglypuff looks like Meta Knight compared to Brawl Ganon, who looks like Bayonetta compared to Melee Kirby. Even the most pessimistic interpretation has to concede that every character in Smash 4 is better than 30% of Melee's roster and 20% of Brawl's roster.

I've won decently sized-local events against competitive players with Jigglypuff and Ganon. (In fact, that was before the favorable buffs and nerfs.) I'd like to claim I'm just that much better than everyone, but that just isn't true.


It was bad enough having to listen to 6 years of people saying Jiggs was unplayable in Brawl, while I consistently won most the tourneys in St. Louis with her. (And she was bad, but people talked like she was Melee Kirby.) But it requires too much disbelief to hear on repeat how Smash 4 Jiggs/Zelda/Ganon--who are all significantly better characters than Brawl Jiggs, to say nothing of Brawl Ganon--are just complete garbage that everyone should ignore.


tl;dr - Tiers exist, but dang, have some perspective and drop the hyperbole.

Idk the full extent of your melee knowledge, but Melee Kirby being THAT bad is a cliché that needs to die. However, i'd agree that the character turns out to be able to fight some characters just by the sheer dumbness of his gimmicks like crouching under the many hits, as well good tilts & decent aerials. Triple R's 65th place at EVO 2016 & close games against players like Bizarro's Ganon & M2K's Sheik is indicative that Kirby really isn't that bad, even though he is indeed pretty bad. I'm just mentionning this to avoid further spreading of this false truth.
If anything, Melee Bowser is the true unplayable disgrace that Melee gave birth to, at least from my experience & opinion.

Funnily enough, the more i look at it, the more i think that Smash 4 Kirby really isn't that far from Melee Kirby, just that his advantage state became an actual something over time & so his niche no longer only is against characters that can't quite hit usually, like Melee Falcon/Ganon/Sheik, but also the fastfallers, like Smash 4 Fox.

 

[TDK]

Captain Zack and Samsora are both confirmed for Greninja saga.

 

[Kofu]

( You might be joking about it. But I can''t tell for sure. I apologize if you were. )

If that's the case. Then Ganondorf and Zelda were made bad on purpose.
Almost everything Ganon and Zelda have is nonfunctional and very poor.
...
There are a lot of characters in the low tier that have very poor tool kits.
Many of them need buffs of some sort.
I don't think any of them were made bad on purpose.

Just a note here, Ganon's moves are, for the most part, quite functional and overall good. His frame data, while nothing spectacular, is workable, and most of his moves only have a few frames difference from Captain Falcon's in startup (DTilt is actually 1 frame faster, and his aerials all match Falcon's). UTilt and Warlock Punch are mostly joke moves, but have uses (UTilt can be used to 2-frame recoveries and Warlock Punch is an excellent shield break punish, something that's easily in Ganon's capabilities). Only a few of his moves have performance issues now: FAir still has odd coding that prevents it from autocanceling in a full hop, DSmash still fails to connect occationally, and Dark Dive can still be punished if wall teched. Falcon has that problem too, and it's better than being punished for landing the move regardless of walls).

It's his awful mobility that holds him back more than anything.

Tbh whenever a bottom tier gets brought up, it feels like it's always discussing their flaws. This also seems to apply to some low and maybe mid tiers. No character is unplayable. Difficult? Yes. Not someone you should play at your very first tournament? Yes. But......better in casual play? Yes. Better in teams or multiplayer matches? Yes.
Gentle reminder that low-tier Palutena has taken a set off of ZeRo.
Also, 8 inches had multiple highlight reel worthy plays against ZeRo at the latest Ignition with Ganondorf. Including an up air gimp, bodying ZeRo in the ditto, and an up-tilt two frame. He lost, and for the most part got destroyed and shut down in neutral (which isn't unexpected since it's ZeRo).


Speaking of those last two paragraphs, that match has made me do a little thinking about Ganondorf. Whenever discussed, his main flaw is said that he cannot approach, but if the opponent messses up and/or he does get in, he can get a good deal of damage on the opponent. This was pretty obvious watching 8 inches, ZeRo shut down his approaches when playing Lucina, and 8 inches only got in a couple times with Wizard's Foot. But the two times 8 inches took stocks off ZeRo's Lucina, as well as their Ganon ditto, made me think about something I have never seen be discussed: Ganon's edgeguard game.
I feel that Ganon's moveset makes him ideal for edgeguarding. Offstage he has up-air gimps, his dair has that "true spike" aspect to it (and it's sourspot hurts just as much and can be used for stage spikes), he has the high-risk high-reward option of going for side-b offstage, nair is very good for keeping people offstage, and he has footstool setups into dair and down-b offstage, as well as up-b into side-b offstage.
As for onstage edgeguarding and ledgetrapping....many of his moves can mean the end of a stock if you get hit by them on or at the ledge at medium to high percents. Fair, nair, bair, his smashes, are all good options. During the ditto, 8 inches catches ZeRo rolling in with a reverse fsmash. Down tilt and up tilt (as 8 inches has shown) are powerful two-frame tools. If you catch the opponent getting up with Flame Choke, ftilt at medium to high percents will send most characters too far away to recover.

All in all, nobody really talks about Ganon's edgeguard game, when it looks to be really good.
Thoughts?

Ganon's edgeguarding is excellent but hampered by his poor recovery.

 

[Das Koopa]

So I ended up on ZeRo's stream after I came across him in FG (I have the matches uploaded if anybody cares, my Greninja vs. his Lucina) but I stuck around to watch him play with Lucina. Somebody in chat said that Marth takes more skill to play than Lucina. ZeRo doesn't really have a filter on-stream so I dunno if it's okay to post the twitch clip, but here are his points:

-Between Marth and Lucina, the tipper hitbox is just an overlay from Marth. You more or less play the characters the same way.
-ZeRo says that tippering isn't consistent, calls it more or less random due to how strict the timing is in combination with all the other tiny movements that can happen based on %/rage/etc.
-Makes a point by saying (heavy paraphrasing) "I want to be able to kill at 150% with back-air from center stage, and Marth can't always do that because of his sourspot, but Lucina can."

From the reddit thread that got posted, he also said this:

I've played with people like Leo who have said its sometimes unreliable (said to me) so it's not a crazy statement

i may draw ire for re-igniting this long-standing feud but t least it's relevant top player opinions

 

[Locke 06]

-Makes a point by saying (heavy paraphrasing) "I want to be able to kill at 150% with back-air from center stage, and Marth can't always do that because of his sourspot, but Lucina can."

Lucina's BAir is the reason to play the character over Marth.

Similar to how Marth's FTilt is the reason to play the character over Lucina.

 

[Nobie]

The rhetoric of how unplayable, horrible, irrelevant, ect. that these characters are is pretty silly.

It pretends that 1v1 top-level competition is the only context that exists, while simultaneously being very ignorant of that very context historically.


Ganon, Jigglypuff, and Zelda are all non-trivially better in FFA or team formats. They are also all non-trivially better at lower levels of play. And to be blunt, by "lower levels of play", I mean "the levels of play of the majority of people posting here." (Hey, if you want me to lock this thread so that only the PGR can post, we can arrange that...)

Yet at the same time, if you do want to talk just competitive 1v1s, some perspective might be in order. Smash 4 Jigglypuff looks like Meta Knight compared to Brawl Ganon, who looks like Bayonetta compared to Melee Kirby. Even the most pessimistic interpretation has to concede that every character in Smash 4 is better than 30% of Melee's roster and 20% of Brawl's roster.

I've won decently sized-local events against competitive players with Jigglypuff and Ganon. (In fact, that was before the favorable buffs and nerfs.) I'd like to claim I'm just that much better than everyone, but that just isn't true.


It was bad enough having to listen to 6 years of people saying Jiggs was unplayable in Brawl, while I consistently won most the tourneys in St. Louis with her. (And she was bad, but people talked like she was Melee Kirby.) But it requires too much disbelief to hear on repeat how Smash 4 Jiggs/Zelda/Ganon--who are all significantly better characters than Brawl Jiggs, to say nothing of Brawl Ganon--are just complete garbage that everyone should ignore.


tl;dr - Tiers exist, but dang, have some perspective and drop the hyperbole.

I think this is all an important point, namely that Smash is designed, whether competitive players like it or not, to be played in a million different formats on a wide variety of stages.

Like, consider the desire to roughly balance a game that could potentially take place on Final Destination... or Orbital Gate Assault... or Great Cave Offensive.

Dedede isn't really touched because he's already a menace on For Glory. I think they're okay with keeping him below average everywhere else to prevent him from becoming the god of FG.

I suspect Little Mac never got massive buffs because the most massive buff you can give him is picking a walk-off stage. When Little Mac doesn't even have to worry about recovery, hurtin's a comin' (incidentally, his home stage, Boxin Ring, is a walk-off).

Oh, fun Melee Bowser fact: Ground Whirling Fortress is actually as fast as Shine with similar intangibility. It's just on Bowser instead of the best character in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So...what you guys are saying is that...in a game where there are a million ways to play....some characters are in fact worthless in a 1v1 format?

Good lord

...

In other news, water is wet.

More news at 11 folks, please stay tuned.

 

[Rizen]

Just a note here, Ganon's moves are, for the most part, quite functional and overall good. His frame data, while nothing spectacular, is workable, and most of his moves only have a few frames difference from Captain Falcon's in startup (DTilt is actually 1 frame faster, and his aerials all match Falcon's). UTilt and Warlock Punch are mostly joke moves, but have uses (UTilt can be used to 2-frame recoveries and Warlock Punch is an excellent shield break punish, something that's easily in Ganon's capabilities). Only a few of his moves have performance issues now: FAir still has odd coding that prevents it from autocanceling in a full hop, DSmash still fails to connect occationally, and Dark Dive can still be punished if wall teched. Falcon has that problem too, and it's better than being punished for landing the move regardless of walls).

It's his awful mobility that holds him back more than anything.

Ganon's edgeguarding is excellent but hampered by his poor recovery.

I mostly agree but anyone who can catch a 2 frame with a frame 81-84 Utilt is an oracle.

Something I'll say for Ganon is his footsies aren't bad. He has good range and burst options. DA is a good move. Throw in some pivots and the threat of command grab/shield grab and he can be formidable.

i may draw ire for re-igniting this long-standing feud but t least it's relevant top player opinions

I'm not touching that topic with a ten foot Falchion.

 

[FeelMeUp]

can't help but feel like are pushing themselves further away from the rest of the cast with the advent of these new footstool/instadeath conversions.
sheik can now grab you at 0, fair you at 60, or ftilt you at 30 and get massive damage off footstool conversions.
diddy can randomly nair or dthrow you and take half or your entire stock
bayo is bayo.
kinda scary.
and as a sidenote, cloud's meta isn't evolving fast enough.

 

[TDK]

I mostly agree but anyone who can catch a 2 frame with a frame 81-84 Utilt is an oracle.

https://youtu.be/iLpD2QfTWdc?t=7m17s

 

[Emblem Lord]

can't help but feel like are pushing themselves further away from the rest of the cast with the advent of these new footstool/instadeath conversions.
sheik can now grab you at 0, fair you at 60, or ftilt you at 30 and get massive damage off footstool conversions.
diddy can randomly nair or dthrow you and take half or your entire stock
bayo is bayo.
kinda scary.
and as a sidenote, cloud's meta isn't evolving fast enough.

Does not matter how much you evolve when you are on a rocky foundation.

I.E No safe ground pokes and kinda free off stage.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm not touching that topic with a ten foot Falchion.

I'm turning this into a catchphrase! Lol so good. On a side note, if three characters are pulling away would they get as bad as Ice Climbers or Brawl MK for being overpowered? That's a frightening thought. I can kiss my character diversity good bye!

 

[FamilyTeam]

So I ended up on ZeRo's stream after I came across him in FG (I have the matches uploaded if anybody cares, my Greninja vs. his Lucina) but I stuck around to watch him play with Lucina. Somebody in chat said that Marth takes more skill to play than Lucina. ZeRo doesn't really have a filter on-stream so I dunno if it's okay to post the twitch clip, but here are his points:

-Between Marth and Lucina, the tipper hitbox is just an overlay from Marth. You more or less play the characters the same way.
-ZeRo says that tippering isn't consistent, calls it more or less random due to how strict the timing is in combination with all the other tiny movements that can happen based on %/rage/etc.
-Makes a point by saying (heavy paraphrasing) "I want to be able to kill at 150% with back-air from center stage, and Marth can't always do that because of his sourspot, but Lucina can."

From the reddit thread that got posted, he also said this:



i may draw ire for re-igniting this long-standing feud but t least it's relevant top player opinions

ZeRo went on a long rage rant about why he prefers Lucina over Marth. Basically he said that he values the consistency of her hit far more than whatever Tipper has the potential to offer him. He'd much rather know what his moves are always going to do and have a more consistent range he knows he'll kill than have "an FSmash that kills at 40% today and 140% later" when he can have "an FSmash that kills a 60% always".
I don't necessarily agree with what he said about tippers being random... on lower levels. I actually see the point he has when you get to the level he plays (When you get to the PGR Top 7).
He said he doesn't like playing Marth and would much rather always take Lucina. This just confirms to me that just like Leo can't use Lucina, ZeRo can't use Marth: They're too used to the little and big things one character has over the other to be able to use the other one.
There's a clip of part of his rant, but it doesn't encompass not even a third of what he said, and it contains "Not E-sports words" because he was angry at the twitch chat pestering him about his controversial choice.

When you pick Lucina, you basically choose FSmash that consistently kills at mid percents at the latest, considerably stronger Up Smash, Dancing Blade that racks up damage better than it kills, Back Air that kills or gives you ridiculous stage control and damage per hit and an Up Air that does literally everything, including killing without having to space it.

When you pick Marth, you choose tipper FSmash, FTilt, Dancing Blade that kills better than it racks up damage, Tipper Bair, Nair and Up Air.

Leo prefers his Nair ledge traps and his Jab setups, ZeRo has no problem landing FSmashes, Up Smashes or edgeguarding anybody with Lucina and if they go past 140% he always finds an Up Throw sooner than later. They value different assets of the characters. If ZeRo finds out Up Tilt is godlike at killing, he is gonna have an even better time in his matches. (Oh wait, that's for friendlies only, right?)

 

[Lord Dio]

can't help but feel like are pushing themselves further away from the rest of the cast with the advent of these new footstool/instadeath conversions.
sheik can now grab you at 0, fair you at 60, or ftilt you at 30 and get massive damage off footstool conversions.
diddy can randomly nair or dthrow you and take half or your entire stock
bayo is bayo.
kinda scary.
and as a sidenote, cloud's meta isn't evolving fast enough.

Falcon and Ganon both have foostool dair setups that can be started at low or medium percents, and end in death. Fatality was doing it a ton at Civil War (he's done it before, just used it a lot more than usual). Opana has replicated it with Ganondorf in his recent videos.
Megaman has Metal Blade footstool combos that end in death that we know about thanks to Kameme, that ends in death.
Lucas has throw setups for footstool combos.
Falcon can grab you and down throw you and there's around a third of your stock or so gone by the time you get back on stage.
Luhtie ended his set with ZeRo with a string of up airs.
Elegant combos.
It's hard to see it as pushing further away when multiple others in lower tiers can do things that take stocks just as quickly.

Speaking of bayo and conversions/death combos, Salem's video should be coming......soon, apparently.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Falcon and Ganon both have foostool dair setups that can be started at low or medium percents, and end in death. Fatality was doing it a ton at Civil War (he's done it before, just used it a lot more than usual). Opana has replicated it with Ganondorf in his recent videos.
Megaman has Metal Blade footstool combos that end in death that we know about thanks to Kameme, that ends in death.
Lucas has throw setups for footstool combos.
Falcon can grab you and down throw you and there's around a third of your stock or so gone by the time you get back on stage.
Luhtie ended his set with ZeRo with a string of up airs.
Elegant combos.
It's hard to see it as pushing further away when multiple others in lower tiers can do things that take stocks just as quickly.

Speaking of bayo and conversions/death combos, Salem's video should be coming......soon, apparently.

which of these characters have a neutral on the level of sheik or diddy?

 

[PMMikey]

On the tier list shouldn't Marth and Lucina be closer? I normally see people separate them as if they're different, but are they really that different? I think I even remember watching one of ZeRo's videos on the matter, thoughts?

 

[ARGHETH]

On the tier list shouldn't Marth and Lucina be closer? I normally see people separate them as if they're different, but are they really that different? I think I even remember watching one of ZeRo's videos on the matter, thoughts?

Which one? The Backroom's was before Lucina was getting many results, which is why she's ~10 spots away in high tier. Now that PersistentBlade picked her up and feels confident enough about her to use her in tournament, I'd say it's quite a bit fairer to say she's only a few spots behind/right beside Marth.

 

[FamilyTeam]

On the tier list shouldn't Marth and Lucina be closer? I normally see people separate them as if they're different, but are they really that different? I think I even remember watching one of ZeRo's videos on the matter, thoughts?

I assume you're newer around here,
quite a few people would argue that, yes, they should be side by side. They share a lot of their best strengths and both were helped out a lot by patches. But Marth historically has been used far more than Lucina (she has only very recently seen a boost in results and usage) so Marth has far more results, so people that separate the two often do so on that basis.
I don't think it's unreasonabe to think there is a gap between the two myself, but if this gap exists, it's likely very small. Definitely smaller than the official list has them. I'd still rather see the two together.

To the question of how different they are: what their moveset encompasses and most of their handling attributes are the same, but their similarities stop there. They play similar to each other, but they each have their own playstyle.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That being said, Marth and Lucina are different characters, having similarities does not mean they MUST be close together.
They have a different playerbase (for the most part) and different result history.

 

[DunnoBro]

Now that it's mentioned, couldn't Mega Man's fsmash deal with Bayo planking fairly well?

TBH while Dumb, Bayo's planking is only live if you're already in a bad ledge guard spot vs her. For Megaman, he could just hold metal blade and spam crash bomb, maybe fsmash if they tried it and megaman baited it out by rolling/retreating back.

She could divekick, fair, plank, dropping uair + TWO witch twists, ledge jump divekick/bair... she can even rising airdodge > divekick/witch twist OFFSTAGE and if she regrabs ledge, for some reason she has invincibility back.

However, her roll and standard are poor enough that they can be punished on reaction even after covering these other options safely from afar.

See ZeRo vs Child (or other bayos recently but this is where he won neutral the most thus it was obvious) He didn't utilize diddy's normal ledge traps, but extensive popgunning to cut off these extra options.

Leaving him out of range for divekick itself, and with Bayo's poor airspeed her ledge jump is fairly safe to challenge without that bair threatening to turn things around on you, if not kill you.

This is optimal vs many MANY other characters with potent extra ledge options, but only truly necessary vs Bayonetta since she's just obnoxiously safe and rewarding.

Isn't Jigglypuff one of only two characters to have never been directly buffed, nerfed or otherwise altered by a patch that wasn't an entire cast change (such as the shield change)? The other being Mario?

Mario had his utilt nerfed. It true comboed more consistently (and killed around the same time as diddy utilt)

 

[adom4]

Just a note here, Ganon's moves are, for the most part, quite functional and overall good. His frame data, while nothing spectacular, is workable, and most of his moves only have a few frames difference from Captain Falcon's in startup (DTilt is actually 1 frame faster, and his aerials all match Falcon's). UTilt and Warlock Punch are mostly joke moves, but have uses (UTilt can be used to 2-frame recoveries and Warlock Punch is an excellent shield break punish, something that's easily in Ganon's capabilities). Only a few of his moves have performance issues now: FAir still has odd coding that prevents it from autocanceling in a full hop, DSmash still fails to connect occationally, and Dark Dive can still be punished if wall teched. Falcon has that problem too, and it's better than being punished for landing the move regardless of walls).

It's his awful mobility that holds him back more than anything.

Ganon's edgeguarding is excellent but hampered by his poor recovery.

I'd say it's less his recovery and more his awful air speed, his recovery has good enough height to go deep vertically but he can't can't cover too far horizonally because he's so slow.

 

[HoSmash4]

I'd say it's less his recovery and more his awful air speed, his recovery has good enough height to go deep vertically but he can't can't cover too far horizonally because he's so slow.

The difference between Cloud and Ganons recovery

 

[NotLiquid]

ZeRo is a player reliant on his consistent conversions so its no surprise to me that he prefers Lucina. A 70% deficit means nothing to him when he can maintain composure and play the long haul, which would render something like Marth's tipper a liability for his playstyle. It's the main reason I don't see him ever picking up Bayonetta since you have to account for SDI in everything she does.

 

[Tizio Random]

Just letting you know guys TylerDX 2-1 iStudying at Icarus III.
FYI Tyler was 16th in our previous power ranking. Now, going back to lurk.

 

[Krysco]

Mario had his utilt nerfed. It true comboed more consistently (and killed around the same time as diddy utilt)

Yeah, I ended up checking most characters patch history after posting that just to be sure and I noticed that the only thing Mario has had was his utilt being nerfed (without looking at the page again, I believe it went from doing 6.3% to 5.5%?). Puff is the only character to never receive any changes through patches directly, save for the universal shield change. D3 got only nerfs I believe and the only thing Ryu has ever gotten is a slight change to his turnaround animation to make manual inputs easier.

 

[Lord Dio]

which of these characters have a neutral on the level of sheik or diddy?

None on the level of didy or sheik.
The point I was making is that plenty of characters have death combos or are able to convert a hit into a combo that kos.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bleh. A change meant to help weaker players that hurt Ryu's ground game because he takes longer to turn. Meaning TAC on the ground takes 3 frames longer.

Good job Nintendo.

 

[OverTime]

It makes a lot of sense that at top level players are starting to prefer Lucina. Especially after civil war, it's become pretty obvious that a lot of top players are mentally weak and subject to tilt. Gamers in general.

It's near impossible to consistently get the right hitbox when you're not present in the moment and instead focusing on the result or the social pressure of winning/losing a match/event.

TAS Marth is better, reality Lucina is better just looking at that one aspect of their meta.

I repeat. Just looking at that one aspect of their meta.

 

[Lord Dio]

Especially after civil war, it's become pretty obvious that a lot of top players are mentally weak and subject to tilt. Gamers in general.

It's near impossible to consistently get the right hitbox when you're not present in the moment and instead focusing on the result or the social pressure of winning/losing a match/event.

For those who didn't watch Locus' video on mentality, it's basically this. The first half, at least.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Dabuz had a good post a while ago about how he thought ledge rolls should force real coverage instead of being able to cover the other options and react to the roll afterwards. I tend to agree with that and am trying it out in my project, but I wanted to see what other people thought about ledge options currently